Reef Crystals Alk?

[NewSchool04]

Has anyone tested a new batch of Reef Crystals lately? I just did and I'm really surprised at the Alk reading that I got.
I mixed 20 gallons last night at 1.026 salinity, 80F. Tonight I tested for both Ca and Alk using Salifert test kits.

The Alk was aprox. 12.8 dKH or 4.5 meq/L

Doesn't that seem high? I tested twice in a row, both the same results.

[Rhodesholar]

I use Reef Crystals and mine mixes to about 11 dkh which is the level I keep in my SPS tank. As far as that being high, Albert Thiel recommends running your Alk at an average of 15 dkh and in his studies he got up to 24 before problems arose.

Not saying I advocate this, just what I read.

[Serioussnaps]

Thats very high and not unusual for RC. I have never had an IO product RC or IO test under 10.4 ALK----too high for me so i dont use it. I have been using HW and IO 60/40 respectively and still have to dose CA and MG. Ordered a 50 g bag of TMProReef this week to test it out, but back to the topic your results are right and even if not exactly right...if you were to test it with lab grade stuff it would still be too high for my liking.

[Rhodesholar]

It's to late for me to find the one article but here is an excerpt from another of Thiels.

It's about the 19th paragraph down and concerns coraline growth.

http://www.fishdomain.com/forums1/index.php?action=articles;aid=12

[NewSchool04]

I'm not sure who Albert Thiel is but 15 - 10 dKH is too high for me. I try to keep my Alk levels at 9 dKH or 3.2 meq/L Calcium is balanced at 420 so I think all is well.

Weird thing is I've used this salt for over 2 years and I'm embarassed to say, never tested levels before water changes.

[CeeGee]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8846977#post8846977 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewSchool04
I'm not sure who Albert Thiel is but 15 - 10 dKH is too high for me. I try to keep my Alk levels at 9 dKH or 3.2 meq/L Calcium is balanced at 420 so I think all is well.

Weird thing is I've used this salt for over 2 years and I'm embarassed to say, never tested levels before water changes.

with the results you are getting why worry about it :)

I have found RC to be very inconsistent between buckets. My last bucket had an alk of 12 and my newest is 8.6. I test every first 5 gallons of each new bucket and adjust accordingly.

strangely enough my newest bucket has a low magnesium content. It tested at 1200 last night. I need to find a cheap way to add magnesium as the esv stuff I have is kinda pricey considering how much you have to add just to bring up the mag a couple of points.

[NewSchool04]

I didn't test Mag last night, I should have!

That's a huge difference, 12. 8 on mine, 8.6 for yours. Are you using Salifert test kits?

[CeeGee]

yeah. I use salifert for everything but salinity and ph. For those I have a refractometer and a AC Jr.

[SPStoner]

I have been using RC for over 12 years and have always found it to be very consistent. Alk is always around 11dKH, calcium 380-400 at 1.025-26


I will say I use the test kits that are made by IO (Reefmaster, formerly Fasttest) I have had way too many issues with the Salifert test kits giving different readings. I tested it one time and posted results in the chemistry forum, but can't find the thread. Anyhow, I tested Salifert kits (alk, phosphate, and calcium) from 3 different batch numbers of the reagents and got some pretty high variations.


The IO kits are made by Hach, which I know is one of the high end research testing manufacturers, so I have stuck with them. Not saying that that explains your issues.

Also, I always mix up large quantities at once (50 gals plus). Perhaps it's just not mixed well in your pail, or experienced some settling?


Not sure. All I do know is every time I have tried to switch from RC to try another salt, I have had big problems:confused:


HTH

[NewSchool04]

How user friendly are the IO test kits SPStoner?

Can you remember aproximately the variations on those 3 tests? That's disheartening to hear that news though, I was always under the impression that Salifert was up on the top as far as test kits went.

[stony_corals]

I think all test kits are sadly, hit or miss. Part of it is that they are probably off by a certain percentage due to the potential for user error, and that many times the test kits sit at the distributor or retail for a while which reduces their accuracy.

Don't assume Salifert is more accurate than others... Randy Farley-Holmes has shown otherwise in his article about Borate test kits, the Seachem test kit was more accurate than Salifert. I lothe Saliferts NO3 test kit as well...

Albert Thiel, I haven't heard that name is about 15 years.... An alk of 15 dKH, that's way high... If you are using a commercial buffer, you are making them very happy....

[NewSchool04]

Which kits are you using stony_corals?

[stony_corals]

I use a mix of salifert (alk, ca), seachem (no3, mg) and merck(PO4).

[Rhodesholar]

I am not trying to hijack the thread but I found the article I refered to in my earlier post by Albert Thiel on keeping a high ALK. It is good reading.

http://www.reefcentral.com/reeflink/johnl/mfaira/05.htm#51

Just providing info, not saying anyone is right or wrong with what there doing.

Sorry to interrupt.

[NewSchool04]

No worries Rhodesholar!

I'm not sure who Thiel is but that information seems very outdated. I think most people will agree that keeping your tank at 15dKH is not recommended. I would post this over in the Chemistry forum Rhodesholar and see what Randy has to offer on the article.

"Kalkwasser is not widely available but can be ordered from TAT in one gallon sizes. You must do so if you wish to keep corals for any length of time, and want to see them thrive."

[stony_corals]

That was written about the time (early 90s) that everyone believed that NO3 was toxic... Regardless of STN issues, it's difficult to maintain alk at those levels with good pH and ca levels. Those three are very much interrelated.

[NewSchool04]

If you keep reading that article, he talks about treating tap water with no mention of RO/DI.
It's amazing how much things change in such a short period of time.

[stony_corals]

I seem to remember that Thiel was criticized (right or wrong) because many of his statements had "and manufacturers such as Thieltek sells these" or something like that (whatever his company's name was).

[SPStoner]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8848912#post8848912 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewSchool04
How user friendly are the IO test kits SPStoner?

Can you remember aproximately the variations on those 3 tests? That's disheartening to hear that news though, I was always under the impression that Salifert was up on the top as far as test kits went.

They are pretty standard. Granular reagents are in individual foil pillows, and there are liquid components, as well.


The variations were enough to get my attention and doubt the quality of the kits. I don't recall the details, and it was far from a scientific study, but it made my mind up.
I believe Salifert got their reputation because they sold direct to any online company or LFS that wanted them. Also, they offered many of the "oddball" kits. This is a sure way to become the "recommended" product:D Not sure if they still do that or not, but I always had my doubts about the quality just based on the "excellent documentation" that comes with each kit....basically a Xeroxed sheet of paper:eek:


As for Thiel, yeah, he was a popular author back in the 80's and early 90's, well before the reef tank craze. And you are correct, he was well known for pimping his Thielaquatec crap, which was mostly snake oil. Anyone been doing this long enough to remember his "Liquid Gold"? LOL:lol: :lol: :lol: I believe e sold his company to Coralife / ESU sometime in the 90's. Here's a link to one of his crappy products that is still around...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.petco.com/Assets/product_images/9/9631601118A.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.petco.com/Shop/petco_ProductList_PC_productlist_Nav_226_N_24%2B116%2B30%2B4914.aspx&h=80&w=80&sz=2&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=32kjdIlU3uyopM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=74&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCoralife%2Bliquid%2Bgold%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[Rhodesholar]

The gentleman whom started this thread was concerned about Reef Crystals mixing to 12.8. I keep my reef at 11-12dkh (got the idea from Thiels work) and it works for me. I was trying to provide my personal experience and research that was worth the read to try to ease his concerns that 12 is not deadly. Do I advocate 15dkh? No and I said so in my earlier post. But it is interesting, and the information though dated, still has a degree of merit. My point is if corals could be kept in water with a DKH as high as 17+ without detriment according to Thiel in 1985, they should be able to be kept at 12DKH in 2006, though a reefer today most likely would choose not to do that, and why is that? Because everyone says 7-11 or 8-12?

I knew the article was older and should have posted to that fact and I apologize for that. I did post a recent article by Albert Thiel where he still recommends a DKH above 10.

For those not aware Albert Thiel has been a pioneer in reef keeping since the early 80's and has done mountains of research. I have read and followed his work for many years and he is still very active in the reefing community. His latest work concerns among many other things the long term keeping of Gonipora (Flower Pot) corals. When I say long term I mean years, not several months.

I did not mean nor try to raise controversy, or provide detrimental information. And again I apologize for hijacking this gentleman’s thread.

[NewSchool04]

No apologies necessary Rhodesholar. I find it all interesting.

[Rhodesholar]

Cool NewSchool04.

I don't want to get labled for giving bad advice or that I am making this stuff up.

[brad23]

Fasttest test kits are junk

[SPStoner]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8850606#post8850606 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brad23
Fasttest test kits are junk

LOL:lol:

Then Hach test kits are junk, too.

Why don't you go over to the chemistry forum and ask Randy what he thinks?