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View Full Version : DIY 10 gallon fuge combo with canister filter


Blinkgyrl2987
01/02/2007, 12:26 PM
Hey Guys!
I need your help. I want to make my own 10 gallon refugium to sit beneath my 40 gallon Breeder. I would use a 20 L but it doesnt fit with my new Rena xp2 filter I just got. So with that said I thought about using this as an overflow box: (which is rated at 300 gph)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3642&N=2004+22778


and this as a sump pump: ( rated at 320gph)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4604&N=2004+113041

from what I have been told these are suitable to work together. What I dont know is how to convert a basic 10 gallon tank into a refugium. I understand the concept of using Baffles I think they are called? to keep the fuge area and sump pump area separate. but I dont know how to go about constructing this... what to use, measurements... etc...

All I really want is the overflow to come down into the fuge ( is this right?) without a whole lot of forceful flow ( as to disturb copepods and such). I just want to be about to stor my heater down here and
my HOB skimmer ( is this better suited for in the refugium or in the compartment with the return pump?

PLEASE help me and give me lal your ideas. I'm sure there is someone out there trying to do something similar to this that doesnt know how.. ( just like me :rollface: )

I need to know what size pvc piping to get as well. And I plan on having a guy friend come over and help me do this, because I'm afraid I wont do it right.

kfowler
01/02/2007, 01:50 PM
Well here's mine. It's pretty easy to make but seems to work well so far. It's a standard 10g. I had the baffles cut at Lowes. They were about $2 a piece. I siloconed these in place. The white partition are egg crates to protect cheato and other animals from entering the return pump area. The water flow is pretty mild so pod growth should be good.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL487/154764/14038854/217868250.jpg

lildraken
01/02/2007, 05:46 PM
Nice set up Kevin! I was gonna make a similar with a 20 gallon long aquarium. Just wondering if the baffles from Lowes was glass or plexi glass? I would be great if lowes would cut glass for you! Also what kind of return pump would you suggest and where did you get it from? Thanks!

kfowler
01/02/2007, 05:56 PM
The baffles are glass. I believe 1/8 inch. Thin but perfect for baffles. Lowes will cut them for you free of charge. Only takes a sec. Make sure you're using the exact measurements. I had to go back a second time to have it cut. Better to be a little short than long. The silicone will hold it well.

The return pump is just a Maxi-Jet 1200. Works perfect for my setup. The 1200 rates at 295 gph so the pump you're looking at may be more ideal. It all depends on your overflow drain. Mine was a 1" but now is a 3/4" since I'm using a Durso tube to quiet down the water. You can always add a ball valve and redirect water back into your sump.

Let me know how it turns out.

Blinkgyrl2987
01/02/2007, 09:09 PM
I like the idea.. so I am gonna do it... but quick question.. the return pump in the egg crated area.. cant the pods get sucked in through that! Just wondering.... because the purpose of the refugium is to allow them to multiply.. correct? ( well part of the reason)

Anyways thanks great idea! is that the skimmer and heater in the first part?

lildraken
01/02/2007, 09:23 PM
Thanks. do they have ball valves at lowes too? i'll take pictures.. heck maybe even start a step-by-step thread. lol

kfowler
01/02/2007, 09:54 PM
Blinkgyrl2987: Pods can and do get sucked into the return. But that's how they feed the display. :) The idea is to have a haven for pods to multiply safely and then get pumped into the main. I don't believe the pods are damaged from the pump. Yes that is a heater and an Urchin skimmer in the first part. I actually just added another heater to the fuge area. I'm having a problem keeping the tank warm enough since I added a fan.

lildraken: Lowes does have ball valves. I think they're $2-3. I really don't use mine. It's just there if I need it.

One thought. When constructing the fuge/sump, make sure you remember that all your evaporation will occur in your retun area. That's why I only made two sections and combined the fuge/return area into one.

CardBoardBoxPro
01/02/2007, 10:43 PM
She wants 90 degree turns to make it to the sump.. would not the gradual curves of tubing be better?

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 08:42 AM
I've got a question Kevin, how come you made your overflow box from eggcrate with holes throughout and not the standard solid overflow with the "teeth" at the top?

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 08:51 AM
I am thinking of doing a fuge/sump exactly like this but was thinking of making the solid glass (or whatever you decide to use) overflow with the "teeth" openings at the top, putting live rubble rock in the overflow (return) chamber and a live sand bed with some more rubble rock and a big ball of chaeto in the middle refugium area. Do you think this would work? Also, what type of overflow unit do you use for the main tank (picture if possible) to suck the water down into your sump/fuge?

Thanks,
Justin

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 10:46 AM
bump

Blinkgyrl2987
01/03/2007, 10:52 AM
I think he used egg crate around the pump area instead of completely surrounding it, because like he said all the evaporation will occur in the return area.(You don't want this to be a small area, the bigger the better so you don't have to top it off as much). So instead of having a smaller compartment where the water would evaporate really quick he just made the return and fuge one big area by using eggcrate.


I would do this but I gotta think of something else because I want a sandbed in my fuge.... sand would easily go through the egg crate and burn up the pump. So I have to have a 3rd compartment ( which is going to be hard in a 10 gallon without making the refugium really tiny, so I'm gonna see if I can fit something bigger under my tank stand so I have more room to work with.

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 12:03 PM
Maybe we're talkning about something different here, I'm talking where the water is coming into the refugium/sump from the main tank, that corner chamber is what I've usually seen made of solid material up to the top where at least 4 teeth like holes are made on the two sides emptying into the refugium so when the water gets to a certain level in the return chamber it spills over into the refugium area. Live rock is usually put in the bottom of the return chamber too to help reduce the microbubbles and be a home for pods. The water then flows through the refugium through the baffles and into the pump area where it's pumped back up into the main tank.

Blinkgyrl2987
01/03/2007, 12:10 PM
oh I see what your saying.. you mean the baffles come between the refugium and the return pump area.... yes I have seen them made this way too... I wonder if there is a difference?

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 12:39 PM
Exactly, that's what I'm talking about.

kfowler
01/03/2007, 12:44 PM
Saltwater Kid - I think I know what you're talking about. You're asking if you can replace the 3 baffles I have with a single glass piece with teeth at top to overflow into the fuge area. Correct? You can certainly do this. The only problem you may have is microbubbles. The 3 baffles seem to take care of bubbles pretty well. I'll try and take some video of the sump working tonight. That may answer some questions.

For my main tank. I have a 1" drain in the back. This worked fine but was quite noisy because of the water trickle from the over flow. I should have drilled the hole closer to the top. To solve this, I made a durso style drain out of 3/4" pvc. This works perfectly. I'll try and post some pics tonight.

Blinkgyrl2987 - One thing you can try is set the return area up like mine is with the eggcrate partitions. Then cut some glass pieces about 3-4 inches high and silicone them around the eggcrate. Then you can add sand to the fuge if you want. Not sure how well it would work but it may be worth a try.

BTW, I originally planned on having another set of baffles between the fuge and return. However, after measuring I realized the fuge would have been really small and the evaporation would be a pain. Even now I lose about an inch a day of water level. I'm currently looking at an auto top-off for it.

lildraken
01/03/2007, 02:01 PM
okay I gotsta stupit question. LOL
how come all the evaporation occurs in the return area? I See that the fuge is covered but with eggcrate, not glass right? Is it a bad idea to try and cover the fuge except for the parts that are sticking out to reduce evaporation?

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 02:05 PM
Nope Kevin, I agree with having the 3 baffles. It's where you have the eggcrate corner chamber that the water comes into from the main tank that I'm talking about...you are telling Blinkygrl that she could put glass half way up so she could have live sand in her fuge...why not have that chamber made of solid glass all the way up with the teeth openings about 1" deep at the top for the water to flow into your fuge?

lildraken
01/03/2007, 02:11 PM
ooh good idea Saltwater kid. So instead of having the egg crates surrounding the return pump. We could put an overflow with teeth. that way you have have live sand in the fuge and only the pods that venture close to the surface will be sucked up into the main tank.

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 02:29 PM
lildraken I believe the return pump is in the righthand chamber with the heater and skimmer (if you look at Kevins photo) and the eggcrate chamber in the lefthand corner has just a return tube inside it where the water from the main tank is flowing into the fuge (from the overflow on the main tank).

kfowler
01/03/2007, 03:04 PM
I now understand all the confusion. The right side of the sump with the heater is where the main display empties into. The water then flows through the baffles into the fuge. The eggcrate in the corner hides the return pump. So I think you're looking at it backwards.

As far as why evaporation occurs in the return area only, it's had to explain but it has to do with that's the last place the water is flowing before it returns to the tank. That's a really lousy explanation but I'm not sure how to explain.

The eggcrate on top is just a safe guard to keep the light from falling in. You really don't need it but I like. It does nothing for evaporation. I personally like evaporation in my trank and try to promote it. It keeps your tank cool and aids in oxygen diffusion.

So let me know if we're still all confused.

gabegmonkey
01/03/2007, 04:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8887100#post8887100 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lildraken
okay I gotsta stupit question. LOL
how come all the evaporation occurs in the return area? I See that the fuge is covered but with eggcrate, not glass right? Is it a bad idea to try and cover the fuge except for the parts that are sticking out to reduce evaporation?


just FYI: the evaporation takes place in both the display tank and the sump but you'll only SEE a difference in water level in the sump area...

gabegmonkey
01/03/2007, 04:58 PM
basically the display tank will always have the same level of water because the overflow (near the top...) will not allow it to be any lower and when the water level is higher, then it drains to the sump....

when evaporation occurs(24/7) the total system volume decreases and since the display tank traps a definite amount of water there's just the sump left for the evaporation to be seen in...

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 05:21 PM
Kevin, this seems backwards to me. I would think you would want the water from the display to come into the small eggcrate chamber and overflow into the fuge area and then through the baffles into the heater/skimmer area and be pumped back up to the maine tank. Would either way work? Why did you choose your way?

kfowler
01/03/2007, 06:05 PM
gabegmonkey - Correct. Thanks for explaining that better.

The Saltwater Kid - The sump was based off a lot of Melev's sumps. I think there's several reason for your drain to go into the skimmer section first. The skimmer gets a chance to skim the dirtiest water first and then supply cleaner water to the fuge. Also, the skimmer does create some micro bubbles which the baffles take care of. It's really probably just personal preference.

I really like the sumps with the drain and skimmer on one end, return area in the middle, and fuge on the other end. But that would work for this setup due to size.

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 07:08 PM
What if you're not going to have an in sump skimmer (go HOB instead), would one way work better then the other then?

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 07:09 PM
I mean where the return and overflow are located in the design.

kfowler
01/03/2007, 07:32 PM
You could certainly save A LOT of room by not having an in sump skimmer. Ultimately I still think the 10g is too small to have 3 seperate sections. Ultimately, you always be limited by the size of the return area due to evaporation. I think the really cool thing about sumps is that you can do them so many different ways. Check out Melev's site www.melevsreef.com. He's got tons of different styles. You may want to pm him and see what he thinks. Let us know what you decide.

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 08:29 PM
I like your layout Kevin, I just think since I'm not going to have an in-sump skimmer I would do the reverse of what you did and have the overflow from the main tank come in where your eggcrate chamber is, make it out of solid glass w/the "teeth" style openings on the top sides that empty into the refugium area so I can have a live sand bed in the fuge along with a good ball of chaeto (I would also stick my heater in the fuge area along with a small powerhead to get some more flow going), have that water flow through the triple baffles into the return pump area (where your heater and skimmer are) and go back up into the main tank from there. What do you think?

lildraken
01/03/2007, 08:42 PM
I just got my 30 gal long to start a fuge/sump! Thanks for the info Kevin, I got 3 pieces of glass cut from Lowes for only 6.95 all together. i'll let everyone know how it all goes.

The Saltwater Kid
01/03/2007, 08:44 PM
How do you guys silicon the baffles in place (since they are only spaced 1" apart)?

kfowler
01/03/2007, 09:25 PM
Justin - The only conern I would have with your layout would be the evaporation from your return area. I litereally lose at least an inch of water level per day in the fuge area I have. If I had my return where my skimmer is, it would probably go dry in one day. If you have an auto top-off, I wouldn't worry about it.

As far as siliconing the baffles, it's very easy. I only siliconed one side of each baffle. I used a small square to make the baffles straight. For the middle one, I used a scrap 1" piece of wood to get it off the ground and kept it there long enough for the silicone to cure. It doesn't take long for the silicone to hold something in place. As a guide, I made marks 1" apart on the outside of the tank to line the baffles up. I think you'll find it's fairly easy. Besides the smell, I really like working with silicone.

The Saltwater Kid
01/04/2007, 07:09 AM
Alright Kevin, stupid question of the day time. I've heard a lot about auto top-off's but don't quite understand how the work and where would you install it on this type of fuge/sump layout?

The Saltwater Kid
01/04/2007, 10:57 AM
bump

kfowler
01/04/2007, 11:06 AM
Justin - Not a stupid question at all. Let me preface this by saying I am by no means and expert and have never owned an auto top-off unit. I've been doing a lot of reading on them since I'm in the market. There are several different types with all kinds of different switches. Gravity fed, pump fed, float valves, float switches, etc. There are lots of DIY projects out there. The one I'm looking at is a DIY pump fed and with a float switch. You mount the float switch in your sump at the water level you want. This switch is usually powered by a 9 volt battery or wall outlet. The switch is usually connected to a solenoid. The solenoid is then connected to the wall outlet and the plug from the pump. In this case a Maxi-Jet 600. The pump is located in a fresh water container nearby. Mine will be a 5g bucket. From the pump, a 1/2" tube runs out and back into the sump. When the water level drops in your sump, the float switch drops and completes the circuit. This then turns the pump on and water is pumped from the bucket into the sump. When the water level rises back to where you want it, the float switch rises and breaks the circuit hence turning off the pump. Pretty simple. I like the ones that have two float switches so that if one fails, it won't continue to pump water into your tank. Hope that helps.

BTW, I will be setting one up as soon as I can find a piece of furniture to hide the 5 gal bucket from my wife. My tank cab is not big enough.

kfowler
01/04/2007, 11:10 AM
Here's one for ya:

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AH-BASIC-ATO&Category_Code=Dosers

sxtsvnstng
01/05/2007, 12:00 AM
So do you guys think that if i used this design as a basis that it would be a big enough fuge for my 55 gallon? I would have a skimmer in there also so at least that would not be my only filtration.

kfowler
01/05/2007, 07:01 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8901163#post8901163 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sxtsvnstng
So do you guys think that if i used this design as a basis that it would be a big enough fuge for my 55 gallon? I would have a skimmer in there also so at least that would not be my only filtration.

I've read of several people doing this for a 55g. Any chance a 20g Long would fit? I would try that first but the 10g will work also. Couple things to keep in mind.
1.) Size of your skimmer. May take up more room than my Urchin. If you don't have a skimmer yet you may want to consider the Urchin Pro for a 55g. Would be larger though. Make sure your cabinet is tall enough for it.
2.) Your heaters will obviously be bigger. You'll need to plan how and where you'll place them. My tank runs very cool due to a canopy fan. So I'm having to run a 100 watt and 50 watt heater to maintain temps. BTW, I really like using two heaters spaced apart.
3.) Finally and I sound like a broken record here, a 55g will evaporate a heck of a lot more water than my 20 High, so you definitely want to make your return/fuge area as large as possible and seriously consider an auto top-off.

The Saltwater Kid
01/05/2007, 11:56 AM
Kevin can you tell me the exact size of your baffles? I think this would be the easiest way to make them. Also what thickness did you use? Thanks!!!

kfowler
01/05/2007, 12:24 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8904007#post8904007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Saltwater Kid
Kevin can you tell me the exact size of your baffles? I think this would be the easiest way to make them. Also what thickness did you use? Thanks!!!

:D I was afraid you were going to ask me this. I don't recall off hand but I'll see of I can get a close measurement when I get home. I know the thinkness is 1/8".

The Saltwater Kid
01/05/2007, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the effort man :-).

sxtsvnstng
01/05/2007, 02:29 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8902115#post8902115 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kfowler
I've read of several people doing this for a 55g. Any chance a 20g Long would fit? I would try that first but the 10g will work also. Couple things to keep in mind.
1.) Size of your skimmer. May take up more room than my Urchin. If you don't have a skimmer yet you may want to consider the Urchin Pro for a 55g. Would be larger though. Make sure your cabinet is tall enough for it.
2.) Your heaters will obviously be bigger. You'll need to plan how and where you'll place them. My tank runs very cool due to a canopy fan. So I'm having to run a 100 watt and 50 watt heater to maintain temps. BTW, I really like using two heaters spaced apart.
3.) Finally and I sound like a broken record here, a 55g will evaporate a heck of a lot more water than my 20 High, so you definitely want to make your return/fuge area as large as possible and seriously consider an auto top-off.

1)I really wish a 20L would fit, i bought one already made and it just wouldnt fit under my tank... Oh well lesson learned. My skimmer is an amiracle quad II with a rio 1700 pump.

2) My heater is a 150W.

3) I read about the auto top off stuff and i think with just a 10 gallon under my 55 gallon i should have plenty of room for a 5 gallon bucket to make an auto top off so that is definetly an option for me to consider high on my list.

Thanks for your help. I drew up a "plan" of what mine should look like, i took ideas from yours and added a few also. I think i should be ok. When i get it up and going i will definetly post pics but here is the current design, let me know what you guys think.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p49/sxtsvnstng/10gallonsumpdesign.jpg?t=1168035917

kfowler
01/05/2007, 05:23 PM
Justin - I'm getting 9 15/16th inches for the width. For height, it depends on how much water will flow back into your tank if power is shut off. Mine are around 9" each. That being said, it's Friday night and I've already been sipping on the bourbon so I would definitely double check these measurements with your tank. :)

sxtsvnstng - I think the design itself is fine assuming you have an auto top-off. I'm concerned that you may not have enough width space for the return and skimmer section. Maybe though. I imagine a 150 watt heater is fairly long so make sure it fits where you want it. Other than that, your good to go. Hey if it doesn't work, it's always easy to remove the silicone. Definitely give it a good "dry" run. Let me know how it turns out.

Sometimes I think I spend more time looking at my sump than my display. It's cool to watch things work.

The Saltwater Kid
01/05/2007, 08:40 PM
lol...thanks Kevin. Do you think maybe tomorrow after your bourbon has taken it's leave you could measure again just to keep the old addage of measure twice, cut once alive?

NanoReefWanabe
01/05/2007, 09:44 PM
i used pieces of cardboard to hold my baffles temporarily...i just cut a slot in the card the thickness of the glass and then however large the space was...some pieces i cut to use a pressure fit pieces against the sides of the tank...and i cut one piece an inch thick to use under the baffle that is lifted off the bottom of the tank..once the silicone is dry you can forcefully remove the cardboard if necessary, with out fear of breaking anything..

The Saltwater Kid
01/06/2007, 09:50 AM
bump

The Saltwater Kid
01/06/2007, 10:22 PM
bump

sxtsvnstng
01/06/2007, 10:28 PM
im pretty sure he will answer you when he gets some time, no need to endlessly bump...

kfowler
01/06/2007, 11:30 PM
Justin - Same measurement. My laptop pc crashed so I'm having to recover all the crap on it.

chevegan
01/07/2007, 01:21 AM
Kevin just something for you to know. I have a VA 1300 as a return for my 20 comes out at about 280gph at 2.5ft head. Anyhow here is my point your tank is cold because you don't have enough flow so the warmer water is pretty much phased out by the time it gets back to tank. Here is what I did after I realized the second heater was doing crap. I set my heater to 82 and it keeps my tank at 78 over night :) nifty eh.

kfowler
01/07/2007, 09:34 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8916796#post8916796 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chevegan
Kevin just something for you to know. I have a VA 1300 as a return for my 20 comes out at about 280gph at 2.5ft head. Anyhow here is my point your tank is cold because you don't have enough flow so the warmer water is pretty much phased out by the time it gets back to tank. Here is what I did after I realized the second heater was doing crap. I set my heater to 82 and it keeps my tank at 78 over night :) nifty eh.

chevegan - While I don't doubt this is true, I don't believe this was entirely the case with mine. I ran the tank at first with no fan on it. With temp set at 79, I was getting constant readings of 82+. I'll attribute this to the lights. I even tried lowering the heater setting which didn't help except at night. Then the temps dropped too far. I'm only running 2 14 watt T5's and 2 14 watt actinics but there was some noticeable heat coming off the lights. When I added the fan, BAM! Temps dropped 10 degrees and the 100 watt heater couldn't keep up with it. Now that I've added the additional 50 watt heater, my temps fluctuate less than 1 degree. So it seems to be ideal.

I agree though with what your saying about heat loss to the tank. One advantage of a sump is it cools the water some. I do wish I could get more vigorous flow from the return but I have a Tunze 6025 powerhead stirring up the rest of the display. :)

One last thought, this is another reason why I'm a big proponent of waiting a month after a new tank starts to add livestock, even if it appears to have already cycled. Getting a tanks parameters stable can take some time.

The Saltwater Kid
01/07/2007, 12:37 PM
thanks Kevin!!!

kfowler
01/07/2007, 01:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8918847#post8918847 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Saltwater Kid
thanks Kevin!!!

No problem. Let me know how your's turns out.

Blinkgyrl2987
01/10/2007, 04:10 PM
Okay I have a question. I just recently set up my 20L as a sump and I noticed that where the water flows down through the tube ( from the overflow box) if the tube is not partially exposed from the water I get a gurgley sound. Reminds me of a horse trotting.lol. So up until now I have been resting the inflow tube on top of the return pump so the tube stays above the water. From this I get that rushing water sound... which is kind of loud.


What I'd like to know is ... from all the pictures I have seen of sumps, it has always seemed to me that the pipe coming down from the overflow is submerged. IS this true? And how is this possible if ( like in my situation I'm getting this horrbile sound).

My friend and I came to the conclusion that its because the overflow box pulls down water but also air ( thus the tube needs to stay exposed in order to let the air out) if not it drops below the water and the sump and bubbles a whole lot.

Another thing is the overflow is rated for 600 gph. the pump is rated for 350 gph. I'm guessing that since the overflow only can only take in what the pump pumps... its only getting maybe 350 gallons and therefore is taking in alot as air as well?

I'm just confused. Let me know if I'm doing something wrong

I also have yet to add in baffles, refugium etc... I plan on drying out the sump and constructing all this. I just wanted to set it all up and experiment with how the overflow and return pump works. Is there any down sides to just having the skimmer and heater and return all in the sump without any divided sections? Just wondering b/c this seems to be working fine if I didnt plan on adding the refugium later or if I went with a hang on the back one.

The only problem I'm having is with keeping my temperature up. I think I need a higher watt heater.

kfowler
01/10/2007, 08:51 PM
Ok lets see.

I had the same problem with my overflow. You need to add a syphon break somewhere. Here's how mine works. I use the durso style pipe at the overflow. First pic below. The mouth is totally submerged. The water then passes through the bulkhead where I have a syphon hole. See third pic below. It doesn't have to be this elaborate. All you need is just a hole. I do recommend there being some room in case water backs up into it. The syphon break keeps from having the gurgling noise.Nice and quiet. For your pump, I have the same situation. I know my tank will drain faster than I pump it in. However I believe the durso pipe counters this in that if you added a stronger pump, it would just pull the water harder due to the pressure. Kind of hard to explain.

You can have a simple sump with no dividers. Things you'll want to watch for are micro bubbles and mainly critters and sand getting into your pumps and skimmer.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL487/154764/14038854/221139918.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL487/154764/14038854/221139902.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL487/154764/14038854/221139912.jpg This one is sideways.