Cyano

[tiburone9162003]

sorry i had to make a new threat for new problem :)
it looks like cyano might take over my tank maybe in 5 days,every day i see more and more,zoas and shroom are on sand and they getting covered by it,some LR getting some of that too...what should i do,any suggestions....?

[Sparkss]

phosphate remover, more flow, and good skimming. If it is your 24g aquapod, you can always go for chemi-clean and the obligatory water change (which shouldn't be that bad on a tank your size). But that will only remedy the symptom, not that cause, so it is usually a short term solution, but some have had luck with using it once every couple of months to keep their tanks clear.

HTH

[tiburone9162003]

ummm chemi-clean..add it to the tank or on every water change?

[speedracered]

are u using tap water? if so. that is the problem.

[Reefugee]

Awhile back, I was fighting cyano problems. I tried water changes (15-20% each week), increase flow, phosphate remover, and less feeding. No matter what I tried, I was unable to get rid of it. And I tried this for several months! I finally broke down and used chemi-clean. It cleared my tank. I did have a casualty of cleaner shrimp and my pod population was decimated. But it got rid of my cyano and I have been cyano free in my main tank.

I have another friend who is battling the same issue for several months. Increase flow and more water changes didn't get rid of the cyano either. I gave him some chemi-clean this morning - so we will see how it works.

Minh

[tiburone9162003]

ummm,good info...i found something but forgot what it called but its just to remove cyano,but havent hear other people try it before so dunno...i might give it a try..do u have pics of ur friends cyano?

[tiburone9162003]

i use distilled water from walmart,dont have a RODI filter...should i try mixing water from the local lfs and the one in my tank? its that safe?

[pcurry18]

a very interesting topic here if you would like to read up on it. I found it the other day for a buddy of mine. Good Luck

http://netclub.athiel.com/cyano/cyanos2.htm

[pcurry18]

distilled water is not good from what i have read. ( i never used it but i know it doesnt include nutrients for a reef) so that could be the prob. Just pokin but hope this helps.

[tiburone9162003]

yea i have read that link before :) good info...that cyano can appear depends on lots of stuff...overfeeding,lights on for too long,water,etc,etc...

[Justin74]

Part of the cure is a healthy pod population.Dont decimate that. Chemi clean is just a quick fix, but what about the reasons why it got there? What I dont understand is theres been quite a few people telling you that this is normal. Be patient. Yet you keep asking for suggestions :)

Minh when you say you used chemiclean and you havent had it since. Are you implying that you think it's because of the chemiclean? It kinda sounds like a scotch gaurd for cyano?

Problem with quick cures, is when you get caught up in them seems like theres something always new to cure.

Theres too many natural alternatives that can reap positive results in the short term and in the long term. More emphasis should be on discovering these, unless you want to become dependant on it. Were also talking about trying to emulate a natural reef, and be the responsible custodians of an ecosystem down to the microbial level. That my friends will never be in a white plastic bottle.

-Justin

[tiburone9162003]

i got it off like u told me...look cleaner now lol,hopefully it wont come back quick again...

[Justin74]

Thats the thing,it will:D!

Alls you can do is keep on keepin on brotha, trust me. Ive had some of the thickest scurges of cyano I think possible. Worse then Ive ever seen anyones here or anywhere else on the net. I mean thick mats of red leather, covering everything.

Manual removal just helps but doesnt fix. Your tank just needs to mature. One of the best things I did for my tank was feed it more! But very conscious of what and how I fed it. Small consistant doses of phyto to boost and maintain my pod population, along with more natural foods and carefull attention to rinsing them with pure water sometimes a couple times if necessary. Also since my tank was already established I needed to pay attention to the fuel that was keeping the fire ablaze and that was phosphates. Which now I regulate with rowaphos, with my carbon.
Just wait till you get to battle bubble algae, that proliferates in nutrient poor enviornments! Good stuff ;)

-Justin

[Reefugee]

Justin,

I am not arguing that flow, constant water change, change in feeding habit can fix some instances of cyano bacteria. However - I have heard cases where people have tried all the above unsuccessfully and was only able to clear it using a chemical method (chemi clean).

However, I find it funny that you mentioned trying to "emulate a natural reef." I doubt there are bags of carbon, kalkwasser reactor, two part additives, garlic, fresh water mysis shrimp, FWE in a "natural reef." So adding stuff from "white plastic bottle" is essentially what we are doing to our reef on a regular basis.

Minh

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8884231#post8884231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74

Problem with quick cures, is when you get caught up in them seems like theres something always new to cure.

Theres too many natural alternatives that can reap positive results in the short term and in the long term. More emphasis should be on discovering these, unless you want to become dependant on it. Were also talking about trying to emulate a natural reef, and be the responsible custodians of an ecosystem down to the microbial level. That my friends will never be in a white plastic bottle.

-Justin

[Elite]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8884283#post8884283 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74
Thats the thing,it will:D!

..

What make you so sure?? :)
I had cyano before I knew RC and I used chemi-clean per LFS suggested. I had the same result like Minh. It went away and never came back.

Yes, it might come back or it's might not. Only time will tell :) ..

[Reefugee]

BTW - I forgot to mention that I had a cyano breakout in another tank (my old work tank) and it did go away on it's own - no adjustment in flow, no changes in feeding, no changes in water change schedule. It just went a way in a few weeks.

I am just trying to give tiburone9162003 an alternative solution for his cyano breakout.

[tiburone9162003]

umm,ok...i have like 3 week since i notice cyano in my tank,i thought it was diatoms or maybe it was but im getting close to the month of cyano and still coming back,this morning i saw more ..u guys think it might be the distilled water i been useing?

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8884389#post8884389 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Elite
What make you so sure?? :)
I had cyano before I knew RC and I used chemi-clean per LFS suggested. I had the same result like Minh. It went away and never came back.

Yes, it might come back or it's might not. Only time will tell :) ..

What makes me so sure? Experience, and eye witness accounts of tanks that are much more diverse and established than mine.

"It went away and never came back" Theres that line again
:rolleyes:

More accurately, you mean hasnt come back yet... Nothing is absolute.

I understand why you mentioned it Minh. It's something that worked for you and you want to extend the viable option. My only concern is that he'll get somewhat dependant on it rather than depend on good sound husbandry to eleviate his woes. Because when a tank is up and running like it should be the only additive needed should be fresh RO, food and some form of calcium and/or mag supplement.



-Justin

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8885243#post8885243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tiburone9162003
umm,ok...i have like 3 week since i notice cyano in my tank,i thought it was diatoms or maybe it was but im getting close to the month of cyano and still coming back,this morning i saw more ..u guys think it might be the distilled water i been useing?

What exactly are you expecting between yesterday and today :lol:

Were talking weeks to months before it is totally gone. Thats why I suggested after a months time get more aggressive but stop worrying about it untill then. This reminds me of the saying about the horse and water....Oh well, I digress.

-Justin

[Elite]

OK.. I guess I should say: It went away and hasn't come back for about 1.5 years now :) ...

[pbetito]

I have the best/ worst cyano story ever so don't feel bad about not knowing what to do. The first tank I ever had I wanted my rocks to grow coraline algae so bad I bought every product people mentioned in the LFS in L.A. Finally it happened: This purplish/redish began to cover my rocks. I was growing it so well that it even covered my sand. One day while I moved a rock the "coraline" broke and a big piece of it got sucked into the powerhead. I was determined to not have that happen again! When I finally found out that my tank was full of a crappy, negative bacteria I was CRUSHED. I had bred the stuff for monthsand it covered every inch of my tank, so Justin I must disagree that you had the worst case ever possible :D Moral of the story is no matter how bad it seems it could be worse! KEEP ON TRUCKIN

[tiburone9162003]

ummm...that was bad lol,mine its not that bad lol...i already took out some of that stuff but still keep coming little by little...Question: if right now im useing distilled water and mixing with salt,can i change the water like buying from local lfs and start putting it in on every water change? maybe its my water that its making that cyano to be there?

[Nu2SW]

OK, We need to stop with all the Frowning, rolling eye faces and Answer his questions more respectfully.

Everyone has different opinions. We are all here to learn from each other. It would be much appreciated that when someone new or a veteran is asking a question, they are not talked down to.

Now, that I have that to the side.

I had a issue with cyano, But I could not figure out what was causing it. I was not overfeeding and I had great flow. I even increased flow, and with that it made the issue worse. I used chemi clean and It has not came back. Will it, No one ever knows. But it did its job and its been 7 months cyano free.

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8892147#post8892147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nu2SW
OK, We need to stop with all the Frowning, rolling eye faces and Answer his questions more respectfully.

Everyone has different opinions. We are all here to learn from each other. It would be much appreciated that when someone new or a veteran is asking a question, they are not talked down to.

Now, that I have that to the side.


When you say we, why dont you just say me? Another question where did I roll my eyes, frown or speak disrespectfully towards tiburone? Now that I have that to the side....

You want a frown I'll show you a frown:mad: <--thats a frown pal!
I do admit it was a lil frustrating, simply for the fact the chemiclean advice was coming from vets who I obviously assumed were aware of all the discussions encompassing this subject but also assumed they derived the same answers from the discussions as I did, I was wrong. But only in that regard :p heheh

Before you buy into the advice of using chemicals to solve pest algae, if your serious about what your pouring your money into. What is the stuff made of? Why does it work? What are collateral damages, if any and why? How long does it stay in the system?

By the way before Edwin asks me if I've even used it. Yes. Back when the only source of information I thought available to me was the hired help at the LFS. Did it work? Amazingly. The health of my tank afterwards? Seemed ok for about a year. Then it came back, then left again. Came back a year later(just about 7 mo ago) hard and thick. Just another side to the penny.

-Justin

[Nu2SW]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8892356#post8892356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74
When you say we, why dont you just say me? Another question where did I roll my eyes, frown or speak disrespectfully towards tiburone? Now that I have that to the side....

You want a frown I'll show you a frown:mad: <--thats a frown pal!

I am not pointing a single person out, Hence why I said "We". Because there has been multiple instance's with different people doing it to different new members or people that come here looking for help.

Sometimes, People take information given differently then others. So sometimes, People need to adjust the way they explain or show things to people. Now mind, that this may be a small incident, But I've seen other things also that shouldn't be said. Gif's and JPG's and then other people laughing at that.

There's 1
"It went away and never came back" Theres that line again
:rolleyes:

There's 2
What exactly are you expecting between yesterday and today :lol:

I dont need an example of what a frown is, I know. I am asking for people to treat people with a little respect. If something gets you frustrated, dont respond or respond later.

[Nu2SW]

DBL POST- DELETED

[Justin74]

:rolleyes:

I think we should stay on topic, or keep it to pm's.

Speaking of, heres a helpfull link:
Cyanobacteria control FAQ (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cyanocontrolfaqs.htm)

-Justin

[tiburone9162003]

good info,thanx...

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8892147#post8892147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nu2SW

I had a issue with cyano, But I could not figure out what was causing it. I was not overfeeding and I had great flow. I even increased flow, and with that it made the issue worse. I used chemi clean and It has not came back. Will it, No one ever knows. But it did its job and its been 7 months cyano free.

From what I gathered Edwin from your previous posts, and open discusions at the meeting was that in fact was some of the issues that a few noticed. Was the lack of adequate flow you had in your 55, definately far from great. When you say you increased the flow, what did you increase it to? What was your tanks turn over rate? Also, how do you attribute the connection to adding more flow to making the problem worse?

"I am not pointing a single person out, Hence why I said "We"......

There's 1
"It went away and never came back" Theres that line again


There's 2
What exactly are you expecting between yesterday and today "

For not being pointed out, seems like I didnt get pointed out twice!:p

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8892147#post8892147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by
tiburone9162003 good info,thanx...

Oh dont do that! I was just starting to get a rude and tyranical reputation against noobs going !!

JK, np man. I can empathize with your plight, nothing fun about cyano. Has made a alot of people pack up and call it quits out of frustration. Hang in there, it gets better, much better.

-Justin

[gabe3d]

My experience is very similar to Edwin. I had cyano in a small location in my tank on the sandbed. Didn't want to suck it up since it was quite thin and on the sandbed, so i put more flow at the location to blow it off. Few days after i had my rocks and corals caked with the stuff. I battled it for a few weeks daily by sucking it up with a pipette, but that got old real fast since i was spending 1-2 hours doing it and 7 of my corals have died. My tank prior to this incidence has been running for 4 years without any sort of algae problem. I did some research and bought some chemiclean, within two days of application the cyano dissapeared and did not come back after a year until the time i tore my old tank down and no casualties occured as well with the application.

HTH.

[Nu2SW]

at that time i had about 20x turnover in my 50.

What I did to increase flow in that area was adjusted my ph to get more flow pointing in that direction and it went everywhere.

I now have 25x in the tank with two rio620's.

[Justin74]

Honestly this is not a retalitory snide remark, but that is on the low side. You can see my turnover in my sig area, 1100 and 620 gph seios and a SQWD supplying over 700gph sporatic flow and I still have dead spots.Another thing is the flow with rios and maxi's is there coming in streams rather than laminar making it less encompassing and more point source.

Theres an easy explenation why it could've appeard to make things worse. First off, were talking about a unicellular organism. That is only visible to us because there are millions upon millions of them brooding/collecting. Now picture everyone of those as potential seed, the increased flow just blew thousands of those buggers all around the tank to populate. This is the case with most algaes and especially the nuicant ones we deal with in the hobby.

Like hair algae for example, careless manual removal will inadvertantly spread it if carefull attention isnot madeOne author/hobbiest made a great tip by mentioning upon removal have a cup with fresh water so you can rinse your fingers inbetween pulling it off and disposing of it outside of the tank each time before putting your hands back in to fetch more. This helps reduce the fibers being spread, as well as the nutrients released and squished between your fingers.

Same thing for cyano , removing it manually you want to get as much as possible without it breaking apart and spreading throughout the tank. A pipette would make me go nuts too with a big tank. I usually do my manual removal by cyphon and a 3/4 inch vinly hose and it works very well as it can massage into nooks and crannies of live rock without any obtrusive scraping. Then follow with some phosphate remover to basically starve it. Totally gone within a couple of days. Foolproof definitive method? No ;)

-Justin

[Nu2SW]

One thing you mentioned that no one has said yet is a phosphate remover. Which is what algea feeds off of.

But what strikes me, is he is using distilled water. I dont know if that would cause it, But to distill water should be to take every single nutrient out of it. Hence pure water. Unless Im wrong, pls correct me on that.

My rios arn't a stream per say, but they are a fatter stream. The previous rios I had, Had a 3/4 inch water outlet. So it was a tream big time. The ones now Are like yours with the 2 1/2 water outlet so it makes it a FATTER stream.

[tiburone9162003]

maybe im gonna switch water and just buy it from local lfs,i have a 24g. more like 18g. lol so buying water from lfs would be little cheaper then the $1.49 per bottle of distilled water....

[Nu2SW]

I wouldnt do that much. that will cause too much of a stress isssue for your livestock.

If you look at it like this, You have a 24g tank. If you did 6 gallon water change every week. Which is 25%, then in a month you should of gotten all of the distilled water out by method of water changes. ( DID I FIGURE THAT RIGHT?) lol

Just stick to normal water changes and within a month you should be fine on water.

A 10% weekly and 25% every 2 weeks. it will be just fine.

[Nu2SW]

OH and yeah, totaly use RO Water. Even if its RO water from safeway from one of the inside store water dispensers, is better then TAP. That is what I was doing for a while.

[JenniLee]

what i meant its to switch water little by little with the one from lfs... :)

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8899005#post8899005 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Nu2SW
One thing you mentioned that no one has said yet is a phosphate remover. Which is what algea feeds off of.

But what strikes me, is he is using distilled water. I dont know if that would cause it, But to distill water should be to take every single nutrient out of it. Hence pure water. Unless Im wrong, pls correct me on that.


Sparks first mentioned it. Best advice I think. But with a new tank really not necessary but would be a much safer holistic approach than the chemical alternative.

Distilled is pretty much the equivlent to RO, if combined with RO even better.

You may want to check the Coral Reef Shop, last I heard they were selling pure water for a rediculously cheap price. Like 50cents or 25, cant remember.

[Nu2SW]

I thought they were giving it away for free. May of changed.

[dots]

I have a theory on algae that I was discussing before:

Much like the "cycle" your tank goes through initially, I believe there are many other cycles as your tank matures and eventually becomes a stable enviroment.....due to biodiversity and balances in the food chain.......

I believe that there is an "algae cycle" thats a succession of algae that during time, and as your biodiversity becomes established....feeds and thrives of of the products in your tank.

I personaly believe that every tank will pass though all these "problematic nussiance" algae stages as it matures. However, the difference between the tanks is that as the "algae bar" rises,(My theory is that each succsessive algae is a little more complex and threrfore more difficult to get rid of), the tank must be more "in-tune" by having the correct equipment, flow, correct water, and chemical balances....if one is off and the algae gets what it needs....and thrives....thats why some people have problems with cyano and others don't.....their tank is the perfect enviroment for growing that type of algae.....if you change and correct the enviroment to the "optimal" conditions....by adding the correct clean up crew or not using tap water for instance, then it will go away until you reach the most mature and final type of algae.....bubble(valonia).......In my experience I find bubble usually thriving in older tanks (justin) and stuff like cyano in younger tanks (edwin)........

It is possible for one to not change what is wrong with the enviroment and it to take over the tank in extreme cases.

However, there have been additives like chemiclean found to help people get over that hump and clean up the mess for a time.......but even in tanks that havn't had it in a year......I will bet something has changed....and its the biodiversity level....either something is eating was makes that stuff grow or what ever was making food for that algae is long dead from a sort of "evolution" in the tank. On that note, using chemiclean may get rid of it now...didn't for me.......and your tank may not be maturing at the fastest rate,(who says, tank maturation is a given?), and it could come back and your in a cycle of buying this powder......thats what I would exactly want if I sold that stuff.....a regular customer for it.

I think that all tanks pass through these algael stages.....it all depends on your individual tank and if yours is a breeding ground for it or not if it will become a problem. If it is......fix the problem and it will go away.

The best way to get algae not to grow is get rid of the food or light........its easier to limit the food.......use RO/DI, have enough flow, skimmer, feed every other day(yes every other day.....have been doing it for quite a while and still have fat fish), and do regular water changes.

Yes.....25x turnover is on the lower end, and the difference between 20x and 25x is hard to see a direct corelation of difference by just changing the flow in such a small increment. Upping it from 20x to 40x would be on the order that your looking for, not to mention flow type, thats why people are using Tunzes, Seios or modded MJs........FWIW I am around 67X currently and still have dead spots, some SPS guys have over 100X....in fact thats why I went Barebottom, I got tired of the sand blowing all over the place. (BTW every time I increased the flow, my SPS growth rates increased)

[Nu2SW]

OK but oceans dont have 100x flow in the water, the ocean only moves at a constant 7mph when its normal.

yeah they may end up liking more flow, but unless you have 4 power heads or a really nice closed loop system, most people are going to have dead spots.

The reason I went from 20x to 25x is because the rios i used, took 23 watts each and 400gph. the rios i have now are 8 watts at 620gph. save money on bill plus more flow....:D

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8899068#post8899068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tiburone9162003
maybe im gonna switch water and just buy it from local lfs,i have a 24g. more like 18g. lol so buying water from lfs would be little cheaper then the $1.49 per bottle of distilled water....

I remember pointing you in the direction of a 24hour water RO/DI dispensor from a retail water store, so you can garuntee the quality didn't I......??????

I think it was a week or so before you bought your tank???????

available 24/7 in case of water emergencies or just don't like fighting traffic and .25 a gallon.

Hard to beat it on price and convience, short of making your own.....use it myself.

[dots]

Tidal zones.....which SPS lie in have higher velocities, its more about pushing enough of that nutrient poor water across those tiny polyps for gas exchange and feeding, thats why they are stony and have small polyps to handle higher flow rates......but honestly why debate that if increased flow helps gas exchange and the overall health of the tank......I think I have an extra 820 Seio you can use if its a money thing.

But speaking of the money thing......this isn't a poor mans hobby by any means and as bad as a money pit as my custom cars were.
$500 Holley Double Pumper......$500 Euroreef Skimmer.

The whole energy miser thing is cool and an added challenge.....but like I said with not having the correct lights lights....just makes it that much harder to succeed in this hobby, as we can demonstrate by this thread alone, not to mention the thousands on RC, that this is not an "easy" or "casual" commitment......far be it that.

Lagonal type enviroments for LPS and anenome use less...more around the 40X mark I was suggesting, which I think your tank is emulating.

You have to realize though Edwin, a lot of the advice we share and why we share it is because we want to see everyone succeed and enjoy the hobby the most they can.......not be frustrated as all hell that all they can grow is algae and have nothing in the tank but 3 fish scratching on the rocks. As with most things in this hobby, not all is set in stone and there is "more than one way to skin a cat"........trick is finding out which way works for you........I think your on your way..........

I have learned and am still learning the hard way(anenome)....if I can share my experiences and opinions on why it worked for me I do so......unfortunatly, because nothing is not written in stone and we DONT know why hardly anything works the way it does in the ocean.....debates that can't be answered....like this one arise....but sometimes group consensus does work. I have noticed something lately.....most people have been giving adivce about additives that less is more, why is that?.......won't you agree that this chemical chemiclean could be considered that?.....but like I said, the stuff didn't work for me so I found another "natural" way to combat it. If you had your option, which would you choose?

Now if you would only wake up, smell the roses and buy some freakin Metal Halides.....you would be in a whole lot better shape.....just kidding.........gotcha!!!

[Nu2SW]

LOL, one of these days.

I am getting a 35g tank with stand and canopy which I want to sell, And the money from that Get some better lights.

Im just so scared to look at my powerbill with a hailde system. But that depends on what wattage I get. I have 230 watt right now. If I got a 250 system that wont be much more. But when we get into 2 250's , Ouch. Thas gonna be Espensive... LOL

[dots]

Ohh not bad, my two bedroom apartment just dropped from like $145 in the summer to $95......yeah it adds to it, but thats why we get up and work everyday or go to school to get that engineering job......to be able to afford the things we want to have........


If I remember the tank is a "want" not a "need"....If I am going to "want" I ain't going to "want" halfway......