Surgeonfish cannot be kept with claims

[JIM260]

I have a 4 year old 300 gallon reef full of all manner of life. I have three clams- Derasa 4 years Gigas 1 year, Crocea 1 year. The first two are on the gravel, the crocea is up high on a rock. I also have purple, yellow, and hippo tangs.

In the last 3 months I have noticed that some of my meaty lps (welso, tracho, caulstrea) and my clams have not been expanding as much as usual. A few days ago I caught the hippo and yellow biting my gigas hard. I observed it again and pulled the gigas and put in my 150 gallon refug under direct light. He didnt make it. The derasa seems to be holding its own but is not opening fully still.

I recently backed down my feeding of the tank because i have a tendancy to over feed. Still, they get nori on a clip once a day, ocean 2 flake 2x a day and frozen mysid 3x a week. Plus there is hundreds of pounds of rock with all sorts of macro and micro algea.

Crocea is always open. But... he is in an out of the way spot in the tank that tangs never go... the other 2 were/ are right in the main travel area of the tank.

I am seriously thinking about removing all my tangs and am not happy. What the heck else can go in a clam and reef tank? No big angles, no pygmy angels, no tangs, no triggers, be careful of this, watch that........... sheesh!!!!!!!!!!

Lastly, I dug out an old Coral Magazine (June/ July 2004 volume 1/ Number three). There is a long article by Daniel Knop on clams. He states on page 37 "SURGEONFISH SHOULD NEVER BE HOUSED WITH THESE MOLLUSKS".

Input please.

[bubbaOPPD]

I have 4 yellows and and a Blue in my tank with 8 clams no problems for 2 years but I feed heavily since that tanks has Anthias and Fairy Wrasses. So I have a H&S A200 3xF2001 rated for 500gal heavily stocked tank to make up for the over feeding. Thats the only thing I could recommend since it seems to work for me plus the feeding regimen keeps the Flame Angel from nipping the clams he has never even looked at the clams sideways, he is a good little Angel I have had him for over 2 years.

[Amphiprion]

Some of this aberrant behavior is normal and will always vary from individual to individual. You must also be careful of facilitated behaviors, where one fish influences another in the same behavior.

[EnderG60]

My sailfin was nipping at my crocea, but turns out he was just following the coral beauties lead. Once the CB was removed he stopped.


But I have also had 3 blue tangs(one after the other) that all ate my xenia.

Just goes to show nothing is truely reef safe.

[SDguy]

Any chance this is a chicken/egg scenario...like dwarf angels nipping on corals out of the blue...corals that were declining in health to begin with...

Just trying to put some other ideas out there.

[ACBlinky]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8887952#post8887952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JIM260
I am seriously thinking about removing all my tangs and am not happy. What the heck else can go in a clam and reef tank? No big angles, no pygmy angels, no tangs, no triggers, be careful of this, watch that........... sheesh!!!!!!!!!! So sorry to hear the tangs aren't behaving themselves :(

How about trying a pair of Genicanthus angels? I just bought a baby (~1.5") female G. lemarck and can honestly say I've never met a sweeter fish. She's not the most colourful thing, but what an adorable face and she's got personality to spare. Genicanthus angels will get 7-9" long (some are larger than others, I believe Lemarcks are one of the largest at 9" or so) and they're planktivores so they're much more reef-safe than other angels. IME they're just as personable and intelligent as any other angel, but I'm not sure how they compare to tangs.

[JIM260]

I have always been leary of the pygmies (beauty and flame) but have never caught them in the act. The tangs got caught.

I am thinking that i will step up feeding again. My system is so large and established i shouldnt have a nutrient problem and my stocking level is low (now). The 150 gal refug has thousands of bristle worms, amphipds, copepods, micro stars, and so much cheato i take a 5-10 gallon bucket out every month. The 300 main tank has all the same plus cucs, serp and brittle stars, etc.

Also, i am going to move the derasa out of "the main drag" and up by the crocea in the rock- hopefully "out of sight out of mind".

Speaking of nutirents, after reading a couple of new articles i am questioning the 10" DSB in my refuge. Thoughts?

Thanks again.

[JIM260]

I am considering them. + great personalities/ - color

[jmaneyapanda]

For what its worth, Ive heard of Gen. angels piking at corals and clams too. I wouldve never believed it until the guy psoted of picture of it in action.

[JIM260]

back to my original post......sheesh!

I am seriously thinking about removing all my tangs and am not happy. What the heck else can go in a clam and reef tank? No big angles, no pygmy angels, no tangs, no triggers, be careful of this, watch that........... sheesh!!!!!!!!!!

[SDguy]

Fairy wrasses, flasher wrasses, all sorts of anthias, chalk bass, basslets.

[jmaneyapanda]

I am not trying to be the party pooper. All I am saying is there will be an example out there of a fish that had an anomolous behavior. That does not necessarily exclude it from the realms of keeping it in the reef. If you are looking for a list of fish that will be 100%, without a doubt, never ever going to harm and invert, that list is very very short. If you want a list of fish that are more than likely ok, that list includes many- like tangs. I keep 2 tangs in with my 6 clams, and have never had a problem, although I have heard stories like yours. The odds are strongly in the favor of safety, though.

[jmaneyapanda]

By the way, Peter, a good friend of mine had a fairy wrasse that had to be removed because it woukld attack the gills of clams. That list keeps getting smaller, doesn't it?:strange:

[SDguy]

Maybe attacking pyramid snails?

[jmaneyapanda]

Naw, he was tearing at the gills, at the inside of the clams. Pyram snails stay on the shell. Killed two before my buddy figured it out (saw him doing it). It defies explanation, and I wouldnt call them dangerous to clams because of this one freak incident. I guess thats my point.

[SDguy]

I agree...you never can tell...I had a yellow tang that liked to eat diadema urchin spines, while still on the urchin.

[JIM260]

I have heard the "just give it time and they will" response several times to claims by people that they are keeping even RISKIER reef safe fish than tangs such as large angels, triggers, tusks with them not bothering corals.

I am starting to believe it.

I have heard claims of people keeping vritually every fish in a reef tank- puffers, tusks, large angels, butterflies, tangs, large wrasses. Its a gamble every time. The problem with this bet is that you dont always know who is the culprit keeping your prize sclomyia, or clam from opening. If you do find it, how the heck do you pull a coral beauty out of a 300 gal established reef tank. Traps are a long long shot.

[jmaneyapanda]

Jim- I would say there uis certainly a "risk heirarchy" that should be followed. For example, butterflies are riskier than angels are riskier than wrasses are riskier than so on and so on. Drawf angels are well known to be hit or miss. No one should be surprised to find one of these eating their clam or LPS. But a tang, I would think many would be quite surprised, because it is far lower on the "risk heirarchy", in my book.

[JIM260]

Risk hierarchy is a great description of a proper evaluation. Thank you for your responses.

Here's a different twist. A friend of mine and fellow hobbiest who has spent some time in Europe says that surgeons are flat out not accepted in the european reef community as reef safe and that most euro reefers are amazed that we Americans think they are. I have nooo idea if he is right on this as i have never spoken to a euro reefer.

[SDguy]

I have heard the same thing, but no details (ie specific types of corals targeted, etc.)

[Rockitmakr]

I have both a yellow & blue tang in my tank together. I have heard that they are not supposed to get along, go figure....I also have a Maxima as well, neither of the tangs bother it. My point is, there are no guarantees when it comes to fish in the aquairia, win some, loose some.....
:beer:

[cokemanmark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8894526#post8894526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JIM260
back to my original post......sheesh!

I am seriously thinking about removing all my tangs and am not happy. What the heck else can go in a clam and reef tank? No big angles, no pygmy angels, no tangs, no triggers, be careful of this, watch that........... sheesh!!!!!!!!!!

if you take them out send them my way

[cokemanmark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8894526#post8894526 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JIM260
back to my original post......sheesh!

I am seriously thinking about removing all my tangs and am not happy. What the heck else can go in a clam and reef tank? No big angles, no pygmy angels, no tangs, no triggers, be careful of this, watch that........... sheesh!!!!!!!!!!

if you take them out send them my way

[Chad Vossen]

i saw a picture about 8 months ago here which had a tang killed by a clam!

aparently the tang was "going after food that landed on the mantle" and the clam snaped shut on the tangs face. killed it!

after a search, came up with these.

angel killed by clam (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6991585#post6991585)
tang killed by clam (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=997970&highlight=tang+and+clam)
butterfly killed by clam (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=796333)
another favorite thread, includes clown hosting clam, snail caught in clam... and more (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=796370)

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8904341#post8904341 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by armagedon48
i saw a picture about 8 months ago here which had a tang killed by a clam!

aparently the tang was "going after food that landed on the mantle" and the clam snaped shut on the tangs face. killed it!

after a search, came up with these.

angel killed by clam (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6991585#post6991585)
tang killed by clam (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=997970&highlight=tang+and+clam)
butterfly killed by clam (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=796333)
another favorite thread, includes clown hosting clam, snail caught in clam... and more (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=796370)

I've kept a couple of clams, and I've never seen one shut all that quick. THey tend to shut hard when nipped, but tend to stay open an inch or so....

which makes me believe that in those cases, the clam had already shut most of the way, and the fish went at the clam again...which means that the tang/angel was picking at the clam.

[Chad Vossen]

when i read the thread i was referring to, i think he claimed it was going after food. though since it was a long while ago, i might just be my imagination...