Live Rocks really needed?

[ozadars]

Almost all of us use liverocks in our tanks. They provide space mainly for aerobic bacteria and some for anaerobic bacteria. In an article of Reef Keeping it says aerobic bacterias can grow anywhere from surfaces of corals to surface of glass.
If that is true, then do we use liverocks for;
- anaerobic bacterias?
- extra space for bacterias?
- fauna that come with them?

and according to your answers new questions full my mind;
- If we use live rock for the capebility of keeping anaerobic bacterias on, then how effective are these anaerobic bacterias over nitrate levels and do all live rocks provide enough denitrification? do DIY live rocks provide any or enough denitrification?
- If we use live for the extra space for aerobic bacterias , think of a tank without any rocks but just sand and the sand should have a very large total surface for aerobic bacterias. Isnt this enough for nitrification? If not, then how many rocks should we add to the tank?


I dont want to use live rocks just because everyone use it. I know we need something to use to place corals on or for fish to hide and at least to make tank look natural but I can do this with any regular cheap rock that doesnt harm water, why should I spend a fortune to live rocks?

[Fredfish]

I do not think you need live rock in a system.

It is used as a surface for bacteria and corals, for the fauna it contains and for decoration. The old rule of 1 pound per gallon was before live sand was recognized as a valuable biological filter.

In my opinion, you could quite nicely set up a tank with just live sand and it would work just as well as rock. I also personally think that many of the tanks I see have way to much rock and not nearly enough open water.

Fred

[drummereef]

Introducing biodiversity is one reason. The various life on the rock help to recreate the vast diversity of the ocean in our tanks. Patience is another. Some people can't wait to put the tank together, cycle as quickly as possible, and throw in the inhabitants. Cured Live rock allows us a fairly quick method of tank setup. If cost is a concern, use base rock and seed it with a couple pieces of live rock. It will all be live in the end.

[Fredfish]

Cured live rock is just rock that somebody let sit in a system for a while until most of the life on it died. Best rock I ever got was uncured, strait from the boat to a box and shipped to me. It stank for 3 months but talk about diversity.

OK, back on topic... All you need is a little rock to seed your system. Beyond that, its up to you how muck you put in the tank for looks.

Fred

[ozadars]

Why I ask this is because as I live in Turkey I am not really sure how does a natural LR looks and how much does should it weight. In Turkey we use LR's that come out of the seas around Turkey and I dont see even one reason for using these rocks instead of any other rock because they are not very light and you need a lot of them to fill the tank.

My main question is I thought liverocks that come from Tonga, Marshalls, Fiji and other tropical places are mainly coral skelatons that turn into rocks over time, is that true? and does it have any advantages like releasing calsium or buffering pH?

Thanks

[jefathome]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8947353#post8947353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ozadars
Why I ask this is because as I live in Turkey I am not really sure how does a natural LR looks and how much does should it weight. In Turkey we use LR's that come out of the seas around Turkey and I dont see even one reason for using these rocks instead of any other rock because they are not very light and you need a lot of them to fill the tank.

My main question is I thought liverocks that come from Tonga, Marshalls, Fiji and other tropical places are mainly coral skelatons that turn into rocks over time, is that true? and does it have any advantages like releasing calsium or buffering pH?

Thanks

You are 100% correct here. You cannot use any random rock. You want rocks that will not leach any harmful chemicals, has a nice surface area vs weight, and will "buffer" your system's PH.

You can certainly save $$ by buying "base" rock and then adding a few little pieces of "live" rock to seed it. In fact, I'd suggest that if you go this route, take your piece of live rock and smash it up a bit and then scatter it around the base rock.


So where is Izmir?
I went to Istanbul for my honeymoon about 4 years ago. Best trip of my life. The only thing that I thougt was funny was how you drink Turkish coffee and Reki while greeks dring greek coffee and Uzo. If you told either that they were the same thing, they would get all ****ed off.
In fact, I saw a cookbook in Turkey for turkish cuisine (food) and then in Greece, I saw the exact same cookbook (cover, pictures, recipes) except it was for greek cooking.
:confused: ;)

[ozadars]

Then it is true that natural liverocks from tropical places buffer pH and also release calsium. I wonder if liverocks from the Turkish waters do the same

PS: pm'ing you for your comment on Turkey.

[Fredfish]

I do not think that rock will actually buffer your system It is very porous though.

Everyone that I have talked to that has spent time in Turkey was very impressed by the people. I would love to visit some day.

Fred

[billy72]

Don't forgot it as a great place for pods to hide while the lights are on.


! had a friend take a vacation on a mediterranean cruise he stated
the best stop was Istanbol, Turkey - sorry for the spelling err

[piercho]

IME - No. The Jaubert method is one example of a reefkeeping method that is more than 10 years old where little or no live rock is used. The Jaubert gravel substrate is cultured with live microorganisms, and some means to import microfauna is necessary IMO. Search on "Jaubert" or "Monaco Aqurium". The Jaubert method is also described in Delbreek & Sprung, Reefkeeping Volume 3.

IME, live rock is the primary vector to bring the worst pests in reefkeeping into your system. So I'd go past saying "not necessary" and question the practice as being desirable at all.

[SIZZLA KALONJI]

I have great sucsess growing corals with NO LR at all...with a Portland cement bottom.

[goodreef]

yea, live rocks are nice to have but not necessary ... for me, the aquascape comes first!!! Use just enough rocks to make your tank beautiful, and no more!!!

Forget about the ph buffer, or any other supplements that it can provide!!! I know that DSB offers some sort of supplimental buffering ... but it is sooooo minimal that it will not contribute for anything!!!

As for the quality of rocks, make do with the best you can. I'm in Malaysia, and live rocks here are also VERY HEAVY!!! However, with careful selection, we are still able to choose the best of the worse!!! ;)

[goodreef]

BTY, my wife has been bugging me to go to Turkey for a few years now ... from what my wife's been telling me, it's a great place to visit!!! ;)

[wakkats]

hello goodreef. i'm from malaysia too. i live in Seri Kembangan selangor. Can i ask you where is a good place to but saltwater aquarium stuff here?

[marsh]

Most of the live rock people speak of, are pieces of a old coral reef...aragonite....very porous with a large internal surface area. Regular rocks without the porosity and internal surface area would not provide you with biological functions you may desire for a marine aquarium. My understanding is that the Mediterranean does not have coral reefs...your closest source I guess would be the Red Sea.

[Agu]

Aquacultured rock in the USA is terrestrial rock( not calcium based )seeded in the ocean. It works just fine in reef tanks.


BTW, I'm also of the opinion too many aquarists have too much rock in their tanks.

[marsh]

"....A trailer load of 20,000 pounds of rock, collected in the Keys. The rock was part of an ancient coral reef, now laying around on private property. The rock has been rained on and eroding for eons, giving it the porous texture that makes great live rock...."

http://www.tbsaltwater.com/index.html

From my reading of this site the best rock they tested was calcium based...it appears they use ancient coral reef rock not terrestrial rock. Even should they have used terrestrial rock (i.e. some igneous rock such as granite) I would question its' "bioactivity" in terms of biofilms, nitrate/nitrite, etc. given the poor porosity and low surface area as opposed to alternatives. But I would be open to seeing a study showing equality.

There is a manmade rock "Aragocrete" (aragonite gravel and Portland cement) developed at GARF http://garf.org/ ....

Hawaiian Live Rock is another company that cultures man-made live rocks in ancient Hawaiian fish ponds...I guess is made of Aragocrete.

Anyway, after looking at this stuff, ozadars you might give Aragocrete a try...check the GARF site.

[BeanAnimal]

I think what seems to get lost on MOST people in this hobby is that ANY rock becomes "live" after it is placed in a "live" system. Some rocks may have more micro surface area than others, but this is not just when looking at "ocean" rock vs "terrestrial" rock. There are many places around the world where "terrestrial" rock was once on the bottom of the ocean and many places in the ocean where the rock was once on dry land. Just as rock formations outcrop on dry land, they outcrop underwater. In many places these rocks ARE what the reef builds on and what is collected and sold as LIVE ROCK. It is not so much what the rock is made of but what GROWS on it (or in it) that makes it "LIVE".

Plenty of people use DIY rock or terrestrial rock to form their "live rock" filtration. It may take a bit longer to come online... but it works just the same.

Bean

[ebayes11]

Marsh, I agree, I think that most (all?) aquacultured rocks are limestone, which is calcium/carbonate based.

[29special]

live rock starts the base for a healthy mini-ecosystem without this base your tank, down the road, will lack some animals mosting the ones you cant buy in shops. These animals are the some of the best cleaners out there. also there is branch rock which looks neat and does not take up of space

[BeanAnimal]

29special, it only takes a small piece of rock or trading frags with others to introduce the extra "stuff".

Bean

[Fredfish]

... or a little sand trading.

Fred

[DrBegalke]

There are multiple ways to establish a successful system, one of the great things about this hobby!

I suppose one reason most reef tanks have live rock, it well, because all natural reefs are built on live rock....

One thing to consider to save some money, make things easier logistically since you are in Turkey is the "black foam" method to create artifical "rocks."

Here is a link to a local reefer who has a nice looking foam/live rock mix:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=522988&perpage=25&highlight=sidewinder770&pagenumber=2

[Aristotle]

Several places sell "dry base rock" which was once live, but no longer is. I've been looking at using that. Several companies sell detrivore kits, bacteria cultures, coralline cultures, and so on. I was thinking about going about setting my tank up with those items to give me more control over what critters are in my tank.

My only concern has been whether or not the rock would become "true" live rock for the purpose of filtration, and about how long I should expect it to take to do so.

[BeanAnimal]

What is "true" live rock?

Of course the base rock will become "live" rock. The life in the rock will grow as the bioload in the tank grows.

[Aristotle]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9427775#post9427775 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
What is "true" live rock?

Heh, exactly. I'm pretty new. I understand filtration to be the primarly role of live rock. I'm looking to create live rock and sand, but with considerably more control over what visible life exists on it. It's unclear to me if that rock will filter eventually, but not as good as the stuff ripped fresh out of the water ... or how much longer it will take to become live.

[jim48]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8914553#post8914553 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fredfish
I do not think you need live rock in a system.

It is used as a surface for bacteria and corals, for the fauna it contains and for decoration. The old rule of 1 pound per gallon was before live sand was recognized as a valuable biological filter.

In my opinion, you could quite nicely set up a tank with just live sand and it would work just as well as rock. I also personally think that many of the tanks I see have way to much rock and not nearly enough open water.

Fred

I'm in agreement with you Fredfish. I think there is not near enough open water in a lot of tanks I see. Sometimes we just go along with the crowd to make sure we don't screw up, but if you don't think outside the box, then what's the point? Nitrifying bacteria live on any and all surfaces inside the acquarium so there is really no need for all that live rock in the tank except to have something to anchor corals and such to. Any structure used as a base for a reef will harbor bacteria, and as long as it doesn't leech anything bad into the water, why not use it.

[Fredfish]

What kind of life are we talking about here? bacteria? Diatoms? micro crustacians? ...

I doubt that most people understand what the possible range of beneficial life is and what the range of beneficial filtration is.

To get live rock, all you need is rock, any rock, and salt water. It will become bacterially active givne time. This could be considered live rock, but IMO it is not particularly good because it contains a limited range of organisms.

To me, good quality live rock contains a full complement of bacteria detritovours, filter feeders algaes and grazers. It will then be a much more effective processor of excess nutrients in the various forms they take in our aquariums.

Fred

[BeanAnimal]

By importing corals, fish, sand, rock and water from other systems, we get a full complement of bacteria detritovours, filter feeders, algaes and grazers :)

[chris wright]

I agree.

I think the main decision to be made is what you want to do in the way of aquascaping. If you like and can afford the live rock, use it. Many benefits as previously stated. On the other hand if you have alternatives and different ideas, why not give it a go. Take your time to let the tank cycle, then go for it and have some fun.

Personally Id use a little live rock and play around from there.
Im lucky living in Australia because from the right sources, live rock is not expensive, so Im more inclined to use it.

[obsled]

I'm had the same thoughts regarding the importance of "real" live rock. My dream is to have a large reef in my new home, so at the start of this year I started out with some smaller tanks to experiment what works and what doesn't. Thus far, I've had extremely good rock using massive amounts of "real" live rock for filtration. I also have to admit that my coralline algae growth has been amazing; I am not sure if this is the good live rock seed, my water, both, or neither.

That said, I plan to setup a new small tank soon with 95% dead base rock and a few rocks for live rock seed. This will be to test how the base rock to live rock conversion is. If this works I can save myself a few thousand for live rock costs in a bigger tank not to mention have a cleaner conscious regarding the harvesting. Currently good live rock is $4.99/lb, if I anticipate a large system, that is 300lbs in the display, perhaps 200 in the sumps, for 500 * $4.99 for $2,495. I recently bought base rock that average $1.40/lb shipped, that is $700 for the same setup.

Experience is limited here, but I'm finding that live rubble in my sump is giving me great water chemistry results. After doing all my research I am somewhat obsessed with an over amount of live rock filtration, but time will tell if this works.

I'm sure you have, but you might want to look into the DIY live rock threads here and perhaps have someone in the EU/nearby send you some live rock seeds via a fast shipping method. If it doesn't work, you've only lost time.

[obsled]

Forgot to mention in my post - if you're considering live rock for the activity on the rock and not the shape/size of it itself, you probably are better off ordering smaller rocks that have a higher surface area to weight ratio than larger ones. Live rubble and nano-rock has much more of these things we like than a 80lb live rock, at least in my understanding. So - it might be good to order a lot of base rock combined with some rubble live rock to seed.

[ozadars]

Well, no doubt bioballs or other artificial biological filter items are unnecessary for a tank with live rocks and many people advice not to use bioballs because they keep detritus on them. However, IMO "real liverocks" keep MUCH more detritus in their holes and under them compared to bioballs.

IMO, the best filtration might be;
- Rocks, which should not be porious and not too much, as less as possible. Home made rocks can also be used.
- Algae eaters to keep the algae cycle in balance
- Detrivores to eat the detritus before they decompose
- A simple but big refugium for nitrate and phospate reduction

I believe this biologic filtration together will give the best results. But this guess is made logically. It should be experimented to say something certain.

[elegance coral]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with ozadars on two points.
First, the main problem with bioballs is that they are very efficient at what they were designed to do. Turn amonia into nitrate. They do this in a very 02 rich environment void of any denitrofacation. Rock and sand are capable of doing both resulting in an overall lower nitrate level. Detritus isn't that big a problem because most people use machanical filters before the bioballs. It could be said that detritus is more of a problem with sand and rock.
second, why would you use rock with no pores? Nothing could hide in it, denitrifiction could not take place, and it would just take up valuable water valume. A rock with no pores would act more like bioballs than good quality live rock.
I don't want to offend anyone, just respectfully disagreeing.

[ozadars]

Hi there,

Well, I believe the detritus that fills the holes, pores of the rocks and that stuck under the rock creates more nitrate than the denitrification takes. Thats why I said a poreless rock.

In the system I told, there will be minimum detritus and rocks & sand will do the nitrification whereas refugium will deal with nitrate. Ofcourse I am talking about biological filtrastion. Additional PS and carbon would make it better.

[DouglasTiede]

speaking of rock, so remind me why is volcanic rock bad? Like the volcanic rock used in garden beds for decorations.. Too many heavy minerals????

[elegance coral]

Yes, it is the fear of leeching minerals into the water. I used one in a 55 gal tank before with no side affects. There was a hole in the middle of the rock where I placed an elegance coral. The coral grew to cover the rock and fether dusters and sponges grew all over it. It worked for me but that is not to say it is a good idea.

[boxfishpooalot]

if you think about live rock as living.... its really not compared to the surface area of a growing coral. The coral will take up much more N,P than any live rock would imo. Macro algae would be much better than live rocks.

Im really starting to think that live rock can contribute to alot of problems without the necessary biology to deal with organic nutrients trapped on and inside the rocks. Not only the organic but inorganic, such as calcium phosphate.

I dont think rock is need at all once bacteria cover the glass , and algae or macro is growing. :)

[elegance coral]

You are correct. We do not need LR. People were keeping marine tanks for years before they started using LR. There are however many benefits to using LR. Everyone is correct that LR produce and harbor detritus. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Detritus is the engine that runs the food chain in our systems. It only becomes a problem when we don't set up and maintain our systems correctly. With adequate flow arround and through the rockwork, skimming, and an aged refuge, together with some maintenance detritus and nitrate shouldn't ever become a problem. Just my opinion.

[ozadars]

It shouldnt but it does in my newbie tanks. Detritus is definately essential for corals and filter feeders however the detritus cycle in the nature is way too perfect for us to copy which causes either excess or deficient detritus level.
Additionally, the detritus that stuck up in and under the rocks are not easily removed by high flow which doesnt have any benefit for corals as they are not in the water coloumn. Thats why rocks without pores is ideal in my opinion.

[DouglasTiede]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9274443#post9274443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marsh
Most of the live rock people speak of, are pieces of a old coral reef...aragonite....very porous with a large internal surface area. Regular rocks without the porosity and internal surface area would not provide you with biological functions you may desire for a marine aquarium. My understanding is that the Mediterranean does not have coral reefs...your closest source I guess would be the Red Sea.

It use to have gorgeous coral reefs, they have ALL died off in the last 60 years..
can you imagine.. Man kind needs to really start paying attention!

[elegance coral]

You are correct Ozadars. We can't Perfectly duplicate the detritus cycle found in nature. However, I can't think of anything we can perfectly duplicate. The great benifet of detritus isn't the detritus itself but the small life forms that feed on it. Amphipods, Copepods, and probably many other tiny creatures feed on it. It is these creatures and their offspring that feed our systems. The flow through the rocks is not ment to remove all the detritus, just excess buildup. The remaining detritus within the pores of the rock can then feed these creatures. The pores in the rock also provide shelter for these creatures.
In my tank (description bellow) I have 3 royal gramas, 1 male square spot anthius, a mated pair of clowns, and a little damsil. I do not feed my fish. Ever. They are all fat and happy. Their colors are great and they grow well. I could never do this without LR. Porous live rock can cut down or completely remove the need to feed an aquarium. The addition of fish food is far worse on the overall water quality of a system than the slow build up of detritus. With machanical filtration and some maintenance detritus can be kept in check.
You mentioned that you have a newbie tank. In a newbie tank water quality can jump all over the place. After the tank matures the water quality should level off.

[ozadars]

The great benefit of detritus is actually the detritus itself. Many corals use detritus as food and it doesnt have an exact subsitute. I am not sure how would corals react to the deficient detritus in their diet though. I would like to ask this in the Eric Borneman's forum.

BTW, I mistyped. I am not a newbie. I was gonna write "in many newbie tanks", not my newbie tanks.

In my tank, I use very few live rocks. They are a bit porous but heavy and very old (I still use my first rocks). I dont use protein skimmer, I dont do water change. I have a high bioload and I love to over feed. I have strong current, use active carbon and caulerpas. And my water quality has never gone bad. I believe this is because I dont have a lot of place in the tank that trops detritus and they are quickly either eaten or collected.

[elegance coral]

:lol: Have a nice day.

[zoozimmy]

wow

[Leopard Man]

Has anyone actually tried this?

Anyone has any pics of a tank without LRs?

[airinhere]

This is my 120 gal with all man made rock. The rock was just put in last weekend and I am waiting on a few pillars I made this weekend. This is my third all aragocrete reef tank. I will seed the new rock with the same handful of pieces of natural live rock I seeded my other two 90 gal reefs with. I do use real live rock in the sump. So far I am experiencing good results. Healthy corals and fish. Hair algae bloom was pretty bad in the 90 gals, but it does go away.
http://home.comcast.net/~airinhere/DSCN0099.JPG