Coraline algae and Metal Halides?...

[benray4fun]

I have recently heard that coraline algae gets burned under metal halide lighting or doesn't grow well. I heard this by one of my lfs vendors..."is this true?"

I thought metal halide encouraged coraline growth, not hinder it.
Anyways, what is the best lighting/method to get coraline algae growth and what to avoid?...."THANKS GUYS":thumbsup:

[AD91158]

im runing 2 x 150 hqi over a 65 gallon tank and can not keep up with the coraline growth. If mh inhibits coraline growth im certainly not seeing it.

[alan214]

The LFS vendor is sadly mistaken. MH will absolutely not "burn" coralline growth if used correctly.

[benray4fun]

How much coraline did you have and what lighting did you run before MH ?... also, was there any difference when you stepped up to MH?... if it applies to you (you may have always had MH)

[benray4fun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933385#post8933385 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alan214
The LFS vendor is sadly mistaken. MH will absolutely not "burn" coralline growth if used correctly.

What exactly do you mean by " if used correctly?"...

[alan214]

I cannot say for 100% for sure but I believe my coralline increased by as much as 25% when I upgraded to MH. I had power compact lighting before that.

[alan214]

On the "if used correctly" comment, that was more of a disclaimer. There's going to be someone out there reading these posts that will say, "Well, if you had this many watts at this water depth, then blah, blah, blah".

Alan

[benray4fun]

alan, that's great to hear considering you have the 250w MH's. I only have 150w, so hearing that is a relief...:thumbsup:

[jag1979]

In my experience coraline algea grew better under pc's then under mh's. But it grows under both. If you want it just maintain your calcium and it will come, I noticed a significant increase when I started dosing kalk.

[u418936]

In my tank, coralline algae grew much better under VHOs than under MHs+T5s.

[Sullivmw]

In my sump it is lit by VHO's and the coraline grows like crazy. In my main tank with 250W MH, I get almost no coraline growth. I assume it is the high par XM 10K's and being 4" from the water, but I have never really figured it out.

[Glove]

I agree it likes less intense lighting. Not to say it wont grow well under halide.
I think I have bleached some or burnt it when adding a new piece to my prop tank- 11" deep w/ 250w lamps. It doesnt come back on the top but in shaded and undersides of my rocks it goes wild.

[alan214]

It looks like I am being outvoted! I could very easily be mistaken about my perceived increase after going to MH. I guess the main point is that coralline will grow in either.

[rustybucket145]

I have twin 400 watters on my 90 gal high. Coraline growth is insane! I actually got a couple of coraline eating urchins and put in the tank to help me combat it's growth. I'm downgrading to 175's before summer b/c I had a huge heat issue this past summer and lost a couple of corals due to it.

I have found that exposure to air has a much more detrimental effect on coraline. When I shut down my tank for maintence the level in the main tank drops approx 4 inches and exposes all the coraline in that area. Oh, I always turn off my lights during this maintence. But a couple of days later you can see the water line that the tank dropped to just by looking at the coraline. Top 4 inches white, everything else purple.

[rustybucket145]

oh forgot to mention, my halides are bout 10 inches off the top of the water and 10k bulbs.

[Asuran]

i run MH 250w using phx 14k bulbs... i think its more par than the kind of lighting used. in my old tank under PC's it was all over the place too then when i upgraded to MH it did bleach out some of it but eventually it came back

[Rhodesholar]

I had great coralline growth until I switched from PC to MH. My coralline did die back, no question about it. I even did the light acclimation using the screen method for a couple weeks so I know I didn't burn it or shock it. Where there is less light, it grows great. For the record I am running 300w of MH 8inches off the surface of the water and the tank is 21 inchs deep.

[Rhodesholar]

I had great coralling growth until I switched from PC to MH. My coralline did die back, no question about it. I even did the light acclimation using the screen method for a couple weeks so I know I didn't burn it or shock it. Where there is less light, it grows great. For the record I am running 300w of MH 8inches off the surface of the water and the tank is 21 inchs deep.

[Racing1]

I think it has to do more with water parameters. It will grow under PC, VHO, and MH but if the water param's are not up to snuff it just doesn't grow. Just my 2 cents worth. Here's apicture of mine. It grows like crazy. Can't keep it off the back glass... Also, I have VHO lighting..

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/prbhasson/PANA0010.jpg

[Sullivmw]

I think it goes to show you that there are many answers, and they are probably all correct. I also have seen 400w tanks where it grew like crazy, but then in the fuge they could not get it to grow under less light. I just know in my case it grows like crazy under my VHO's but not under my MH's. Could it be a difference in types and what adapted and survived?

Here is a questions, for those that get it to grow like crazy under MH's, did the tank always have them? In my case I started with VHO's for 2 years, it grew great, then switched to MH and it disappeared, but thrives in my VHO fuge\sump. Maybe I killed off all that could survive the intense light, and since I never re-introduced rocks, I have none left that can handle the MH's????

I know water chemistry plays a major role, but in cases where it grows in the fuge, but not the tank, it has to be something else.

[Navyblue]

The are many species of coralline algaes, some thrives in bright light while other prefer shade. For example I find the maroon ones tend to grow in shade. If the shade loving coralline is moved to a brighter area (or change to more intense lighting) it will die (turn white), acclimation will do little to help. But when they die they will be replaced with other species that thrives under stonger lighting, assuming you have them somewhere in your tank.

[ricks]

In my system coraline algae doesn't grow very well on top or high up on the rockwork. Although at the bottom of the rockwork it grows like mad. I think the high par output of MH bulbs burns the algae and it perfers lower levels of light. My lights are (6) 400 watt 20K MH, (4) 160 watt VHO and (4) 96 watt PC... In my fuge under (2) 175 watt 6500K MH it grows like mad...

[benray4fun]

That's exactly what happened in my set-up...under pc's the coraline grew great, but when I upgraded to MH's the coraline bleached and only grew in shaded areas. Then again, my lights are sitting about 4" from the surface inside my 6" tall canopy, so maybe that has something to do with it..."hopefully we'll see as this thread takes off."

At least some reefers are having success with MH's and coraline, so there's some promise. However, I'm starting to see that a good percentage of reefers are burning coraline with MH's, so there is some truth to it.

Rusty, tell us your secret..."what do you watch or test for?" & how often do you do water changes?...
This is a great opportunity for us to figure this one out. Your success with coraline under 400w MH's is by far the best, so please
explain..."I'm guessing you dose."

Ad, you're another successful reefer with coraline..."you must do something simular to Rusty & I'm guessing the same thing dosing, regular water changes, lights off the water, aragonite substrate, etc."...."Please tell us more about your set-ups"...THANKS...:thumbsup:

[rustybucket145]

I'll admint that I have taken the 'as close to nature as possible' approach to my tank. The only mechanical filtration I have is a Berlin skimmer that has recently been out of commission for 3 months so I could test my fuges abilities. Everything went fine, no algae, no effects on corals or livestock, levels remained perfect during the 'test'.

I have 2 400watt MH's with 10k bulbs. I also have two Actinic VHO's.

I have a 40gal fuge that is teeming with pods, worms and life in general. It is lit by a 3' normal flourescent shoplight with 1 50/50 coralife bulb and 1 actinic coralife bulb (these bulbs are well over a year old, when) I see great coraline growth in both tanks. Cant really see any difference between them. Although.......

My 40gal fuge gets a pretty good bit of light 'overspray' from my main tank. And one thing that they both have in common and this could possibly be my key.......

They are both exposed to a pretty good amount of natural sunlight. They are located in my sunroom which has windows from floor to ceiling on 3 of 4 walls. They both get direct morning sun until around 10am. Then the rest of the day is indirect.

I rarely do water changes, I hardly ever dose anything. I used to check and test all my levels weekly but the fact was that they never changed. Ca and Alk always seemed to be up where they needed to be so I saw no reason to dose. Everything was always 0 or perfect. I do religiously use RO/DI, for top off. I don't even drink the local water here... hehe.

Other than that I have probably about 1300gph going through my main tank and 600gph going through my fuge. I also have a 30gal sump for my pumps and heaters....etc.

I really attribute my tanks success and stability to my fuge. Before I added it I was constantly battling algae and skimming ungodly amounts of skimmate. Now I grow a gallon of chaeto a week and my corals are growing like wildfire. Fish all seem to be happy, although I have had three fish go brick surfing (my sunroom floors are brick) through eggcrate. Two firefish in one night and my Pearly Jawfish about 3 months later (through the eggcrate again).

Like I said I added a carrier urchin to each tank this past summer b/c the coraline was really getting out of control. I mean I like it just as much as the next guy but too much of anything is a bad thing. The urchins are doing a great job of controlling the coraline without decimating it.

I think the main thing is to make sure you have good water and a stable tank. Without those two you are fighting an uphill battle. All the dosing and equipment in the world won't fix it. KISS Keep it Simple Stupid! That has been my approach and it has worked (cross my fingers) for me now for..... well ..... guess I'm coming up on 10 years soon. damn I'm getting old!

I fought the algae and the problems just like everyone else has, I bought all the 'newest' and 'greatest' products and listened to the LFS (what a joke) but in the end I found that just keeping it simple and using common sense goes a LONG way toward maintaining a reef tank. Be patient and most of all.... pay attention to your tank, look at your corals and fish on a daily basis. In my opinion they will tell you more about your tank than anything else.

[Navyblue]

Rustybucket145,

That was really interesting.

Now, who will be the first to unplug your skimmer. :D

[ricks]

My system has 3 points of filtration. Skimmer, fuge and rock... I would no sooner unplug my skimmer, than remove my rock. But than I have 20 fish in my system including 5 large tanks and a 6" foxface. Lots of poop there....

[rustybucket145]

True, I would not suggest unplugging the skimmer. I just wanted to test and see if my fuge was really doing what I thought it was doing. And guess what, it was. I'm now convinced that I could go skimmerless indefinately. Will I do that? Absolutely Not! I now look at my skimmer as more of a backup for toxin removal that my fuge just can't handle. It's not my main filtration, my fuge is. Skimmer is just there in case something were to die or release toxin. I do have a low bio-load for the volume of water that I have. 5 fish, 3 of which are smaller species in 150+/- total system gallons. Two of them have been with me since the beginning.

[RichConley]

purple coraline seems to grow best in low light, medium flow areas for me, whereas the bright pink stuff loves light and flow.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

same here as Rich....bright pink under 400WSE....more purple uner 150W DE....but under both it grows way too fast for my taste as i like to keep clean back and side panes

[benray4fun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8935743#post8935743 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Navyblue
Rustybucket145,

That was really interesting.

Now, who will be the first to unplug your skimmer. :D

Ha, ha..."you're a clown," that was too funny...:thumbsup:

[TJ]

I agree w/Racing1 and others.... I believe it all has to do w/water... I have a small quar.tank, 10 gallons, and only run a small powerhead on it. It has coralline growing like crazy on the front and it only has the little light strip on it that the tank came with!

[barjam]

Coraline grew crazy fast under 160 watts NO lighting (75 gallon) and bleached out and died under my new T5 setup. It does, however, grow very fast in the sump so it isn't a water quality issue.

I do notice a thick light pink coraline (very thick) growing on one of the rocks, perhaps that stuff will take the place of the purple.

[benray4fun]

Bar, i agree it's not a water quality issue. I guess whenever you step up your lighting coraline is gonna die off some, it's je ust MH keeps it from growing back the most so far.

[UrbanSage]

I have 2x250HQI over a 75g and I have tons of coraline See here. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=991661)
Get the water parameters in place, get some good flow and the algae will grow.

[rustybucket145]

If you were to have a big (100%) die off of your coraline due to upgrading lighting I think it would be VERY important to re-seed your tank with coraline if nothing else just to give it a head start. Maybe get a rock from a MH tank, crush it up and spread it over your rocks.

[barjam]

I wasn't real clear with my post, it grows fine in the shade but bleached/died anywhere exposed (as you might guess).

[zemuron114]

Coraline grew like crazy in my 55 which was lit by PCs... i couldn't keep up. I now have MH on my 180 and it isn't nearly as much... maybe 10% of what it was like with the PC. I also have a 29 lit by PCs and there is a ton of coraline on that as well... :)

[benray4fun]

Well, then i guess for the majority of us it's true that coraline under metal halides is'nt impossible, but hard to grow.
If there are more successful coraline reefers with metal halide lighting then please tell us what your secrets are...

[barjam]

I have actually considered backing my T5s off the water a bit as most things in the tank have done worse under the brighter lights and the things that have grown slightly faster (toadstool & xenia) grow way too fast anyhow.

I have 2 actinic and 2 11ks and plan to dump the 11k bulbs for something quite a bit bluer. My theory is that the bluer bulbs will be less harsh on the coraline but who knows if that theory holds any water.

[alan214]

As I said before, I have plenty of coralline with MH only. All I do is regular water changes and feed my fish. There's probably more that can be done, such as maintaining the proper Calcium and Alk levels.

Alan

[Navyblue]

My old tank is a 33G lighted with a 150W DE MH, coralline grows like crazy too, but only after I tested and rectified my Mg level.

[benray4fun]

Mg level?...

[Navyblue]

The last time I checked was one year ago which was 1740 ppm, thanks to Oceanic salt. I have since tore down the tank.

[Opcn]

I think that its pretty obvious at this point that we are dealing with different species of coraline. Some species do well under high light, personally I've seen coraline just inches below the low tide line on reefs in southern Alaska. Perhaps the thing to do would be to get starter cultures of high and low light species and go from there.

[Rhodesholar]

Great thread everyone.

I had a post farther up this thread and wished to add some further personal info to perhaps shed some more light on the subject (pun intended) as far as water quality as a possible cause. Yes if the water parameters are sub par coralline algae growth will be hindered no question but....

I check my water parameters every day at the same time everyday and if they move a fraction I correct. I am not posting my water params to win an anal contest, just information for the record.

Calcium 420
Alk 11
SG 1.025
Temp 80f
Mg 1320
PO4 not detectable
NO 3 not detectable

I use RO/DI that test 0 for TDS, NO 3, P04 etc. and Reef Crystals is my salt.

And upon adding 300 w of MH despite acclimation using the screen method for two weeks my purple coralline died back significantly. I am now seeing pink become more prevelant. Funny, didn't pay much attention to the pink spreading till some one mentioned it further up the thread. So I would vote based on my personal experience (that has no scientific merit what so ever) that certain strains of coralline do better under different types of lighting.

[benray4fun]

op, where do you suggest we get these starter cultures?...

[wetone]

rustybucket

I have a question on your setup..i have the same thing..a 75g tank with 2 sumps..1 has all my equipment and 1 is filled with rock.....I was thinking about adding some sand and chaeto or other macro to the second sump to start a fuge....i currently have the tank dumping into the main sump with the probes, heaters, etc...then apowerhead pumps it up to the other sump with LR and it gravity feeds back down to the first sump for the return trip to the tank.....would this work OK for turning the second sump into a fuge? will pods and others get enough to/from the main tank?
thoughts?

[Opcn]

http://www.ipsf.com/#anchor50240

Is one source, any tank with coraline in it is another.

[benray4fun]

Also for you guys that are successfull with metal halides..."how long is your photoperiod?"
My local fish store suggested nothing more than six hours with metal halides..."i don't know." what do you guys think?...

[alan214]

I run my MH for about 6-7 hours each day.

[UrbanSage]

Mine run 11 hours a day.

[Rhodesholar]

11 here.

[benray4fun]

That's interesting being that one of you guys lost coraline while the other gained some...
Are you guys running any other lights?...

[Rhodesholar]

Yes. 230 watts of actinic. I would be interested know what Kelvin tempature the other gentleman is running. I am running 10k for my lamps.

Also as I stated earlier in the thread I see pink coralline becoming much more prevelant then the purple. It's like the puple died back and the pink is taking it's place. It's starting to grow really fast now.

[pana]

i think its time to shed some light on ppl with MH.

i run 2 150W MH, both which are 20k.


ive only had my new tank running for 2 weeks and within that period i have had half my rock covered in purple coraline algae, seeding only off one rock.


i run roughly a 65-70 gal tank if my gallon conversion is correct as i live in aus and we do everything here with litres. :cool:
i have low flow as im in the process of converting to either the new tunze pumps or some bigger sayos, so i think roughly the turn over just including powerheads is roughly 3000-3500.
my calcium is deplorable i cannot sustain calcium over 400 and struggle due to saturation. so roughly my calc sits at 350 ppm. but on the other side i sit my alkilinity very high and sustain it there.my calc problem should be fixed tommorow with my new reefoctopus reactor.

i dont even run t5 actinics atm due to no stock in the size i want in aus. i can easily say my coraline growth has grown within 2 weeks and only purple. i even have segments starting on the back glass. and near the top where the light is the strogest.


my conclusion is that it has to be a different type of coraline algae even though its purple. As mine can sustain powerful light (including the fact that my light sits only 3.5 inches above the water level).

Guessing as i live in aus most of our LR coraline comes from the great barrier reef and southern parts of asia etc.
But if its not a different type of coraline the above facts of MH not producing great purple growth are false, even under low calc levels and low flow.

:smokin:

[Rhodesholar]

Pana, hey there mate. I got relatives in Brisbane Queensland. Anyway.

I think the key here is you are running 20k halides. I am running 10k. Definitely different spectrums. I really think that has something to do with it.

Anyone else?

[pana]

hey mate, but you are using actinics i think you previously stated to get that blue spectrum????


remembering the fact that im only using halides not even actnics of any sort.

[adtravels]

I dive and snorkel regularly here in thailand and always find coraline growing best on the undeerside of live rock or in shaded caves with high water movement.

My tanks have pc lighting and one has a 150 watt 10 k mh they all have lots of coralline but there are many dfferant species of purple coraline alone who knows how many. and they are bound to have differant requiremants some soecies appear to need almost no light.
I think low phosphates and brisk flow, either laminar or random are key based on my tanks and observations
I think as long as you have some light and some of it is actinic you will get good growth powerful mh does seem to be too strong in most cases.

[Rhodesholar]

The actinics really have no comparison in strength to my MHs, though you make a valid point. I also agree that most likely there are many different strains of coralline.

I have seen the difference between the 20k and 10k MH and it is significant. I note that out because it is the only difference so far that jumps out at me.

I am interested to hear if anyone else is running 20ks and what their results are.

[Rhodesholar]

Well here you go guys. I should have done this sooner. Looks like we are all right on target.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/bl_coralline.htm

For those who don't want to read the whole column here is excerpt, however the article covers much more then the following:

In his CORALLINE ALGAE PROPAGATION RESEARCH PAGE, Leroy at GARF states that: "Lighting the live rock grow out tank with 2 Triton 40 watt bulbs to each Blue Moon 40 watt bulb has produced the fastest growth of Coraline algae."

[onethingshort]

Earlier in the post NavyBlue mentioned different species of coralline algae which was pretty much the correct answer to your question. Coralline is a family of algae which would also mean several species/varieties. It is commonly found at several different depths and therefore it has a certian lighting req. In low light conditions darker shades of purple coralline grow as were in high light intensity the mauve form is more common. If you introduce a deep purple coralline to your system with high watt lights, you can expect it to bleach and recess to the shaded areas of the tank. Coralline also has a calcified skeleton so it needs about the same water parameters as stony coral around 400-450 ppm calcium and 8-12 alk. Hopefully this answers your question.
You also want to keep your phosphates down so that other green/brown algaes wont out compete your coralline.

[benray4fun]

Rhodesholar, great link...that definitely is very informative..."thanks"