Automated water change and ATO.

[oldsaltman]

I have now completed my automated water change system and incorporated it with my ATO. I now change out 1.5g everyday. I have been working on the design and plan for several weeks. It actually was not as difficult as I first thought and not too costly because I already had most of the items. Its operation is pretty simple. I have Kalkwater and saltwater in two 20g containers in the laundry room behind the display tank. Four digital timers control all the events in conjunction with two float switches. The ATO operates through the two float switches, aqualifter pumps, and a timer. If the power fails then nothing operates.
At 6pm the ATO cuts off. At 6:05 one aqualifter drains 1.5g of water from the sump into a holding container for disposal. This container has a float valve which only allows for 1.5g to be removed. At 6:30 this timer and pump shut off, and the saltwater holding tank and pump come on. They fill through the ATO and only add pack what was removed. At 7:00 this timer and pump cutoff and the ATO and Kalk container are turned back on. It has been operating for several days without any problems. I am going to add another timer to empty the 1.5g (discarded saltwater) into the washer drain so the holding tank is ready for the next water chance. Presently I am manually empting the small tank by hand each day.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850DSCN2940.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850DSCN2941.JPG

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850DSCN2942.JPG

[ray22]

you are doing this everyday ? is it good for the system to basically do a water change everyday . even though small changes of only 1.5 gallons that souds like alot over time... why not just do it once a week ? i know the topoff is everyday but the waterchange sound like overkill everyday .. i am not putting down the system i am very new at saltwater . I just want to know the bennies.. thanks for the response.. it looks like a great system though ..

[oldsaltman]

The system changes 1.5g per day every day. I think if you check Randy's post in the chemistry forum about water changes you will see why I do it this way. I stated making the 1g changes by hand over two months ago and have found all my water quality test have greatly improved. It works for me. ;) And my tank.

[oldsaltman]

This is the article I refered to:

Randy's article on water changes (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php)

[otterpop510]

sounds like a great setup.. i've been looking for ways to automate my system. i'm assuming one float switch is to pump water from the sump to the disposal bucket. the second switch is for the salt mix to the sump. right?

also, i wanted your opinion on the aqualifter pumps. they seem like a much cheaper choice than the other doser pumps and i'm thinking of automating using them, but was wondering about their reliability, especially if there are any potential issues with them clogging on the disposal water from the sump or the kalk ato?

also, wondering about if its possible to put an adjustable restrictor valve on the aqualifter tubing to adjust flow, or does this potentially have a negative effect similar to restricting flow on return pumps?

[oldsaltman]

No, the two float switches are just for redundantcy on the top off. The waste water is removed just with an aqualifter on a timer. It pumps into a tank with a float valve so it can only drain 1.5g.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/115850IMG_0210.JPG

I use the aqualifters because they are $12.50 at my LFS. I have not yet had one go out, and they are easy to clean. I have one that I run kalk through 24/7 for a year and never clened it. I did replace the tubing once.
I have all my aqualifters pumping up hill because they will siphon or continue to drip if you don't.

[otterpop510]

okay, i'm going to go with aqualifters too then, they are much cheaper than the other alternatives that i've looked into and if they are reliable they seem like a good deal.

okay, may be a kinda newbie question, but just so i get it straight, float valves are the ones like in your pic and on the toilet and don't use electricity, but rather pinch the tubing to stop the flow, while float switches are the ones that are electronically controlled.. am i right or totally lost here? and why use one versus the other for rodi/disposal/etc?.. seems like most ato have the float switches, which are smaller and generally have the snail guards (like the jbj one).. sorry, hope that made sense..

and nice picture of your disposal container..

[oldsaltman]

also, wondering about if its possible to put an adjustable restrictor valve on the aqualifter tubing to adjust flow, or does this potentially have a negative effect similar to restricting flow on return pumps?

Yes, I have done that too. Aqualifters have very little presure and only flow about 3.5g per hour with no restrictions. If you run the tubing up any height then the flow is reduced a great deal. ;)
I would guess that raising the discharge line up 24" would restrict the flow by at least 20 - 25%.

[oldsaltman]

Yes, you are correct. The float valve is mechanical and closes off to stop the water flow. The only one I use is inside the 2g container so it cuts off the water flow when there is about 1.5g in the jug. I used it because I had it laying around already. I don't like them for ATO's because they "may" flood. I use the two float switch system for that. They are wired in series so both must make contact for any water to flow and if either on fails to make contact then no water flows. I just think that one switch could malfunction but not two at the same time.

[otterpop510]

cool, thanks for the clear answers sa057..

[mc-cro]

I like the idea, I am just leary of timers. over the years, I have had more than one timer fail in the on position. I cant even begin to count the times that $20+ digital timer flaked for no reason, and my halides were still on at 3am!

but it sounds like you have all the bases covered, as long as the floats dont fail, which they shouldnt. although, what if the pump timer stayed on, could the float switch hold back the pressure of the pump trying to drain continously?

[oldsaltman]

Yes, it is not a pressure issue. If the timers fail in the on position then the float switches take over. They control the 12v relay that shuts off everything. That is why I posted it. If there is a flaw I would like to know. ;)

[chinaman4u]

I had thought about a water change method using a bag in a container. I was thinking of using timers and an aqualift, as well. ... very much like your idea.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4808/waterxs7.th.jpg (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterxs7.jpg)

#2 New water coming in would displace the bag and scrunch it up.
#3 pumped old water will fill the bag, displacing the new water forcing it out into ur tank at the same rate
#4 when the old water fills the bag, all the new water would have been displaced
#5 then the cycles starts over, with new water coming in, forcing the old water out into your drain.

My drawing is lacking but the same amount of water going in would be the same going out.

057 I was just wondering what do you think, and if you had brainstormed other ideas for automatic water changes.

[chinaman4u]

Nice neat DIY, BTW. Clean look to everything, I like it.

[ray22]

sweet.. that is an awsome article by randy .. and now that i understand the bennies . your system looks even nicer...

[chinaman4u]

Just a related link

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1014442

[oldsaltman]

Thanks for the coments. I failed to mention that this is not just a box with the timers attached. All the timers are prewired to the recepticals on the bottom of the box that you can hardly see. The lights on top of each timer show if the timer in in it's on position. the 12v relay that controls the float valves in in the box. The far relay on the right controls the 12v powerpack and those relays. The relays are prewired to the two timers on the left which contorl the kalk and saltmix. The third timer from the seft controls the water being removed from the sump. I prewired everything so you can quickly remove an aqualifter for service or whatever. There is also some extra oulets in the bottom of the box for the heater and powerhead I use for mixing the salt and kalk.
chinaman4u - It does look like your idea would work and yes, I did give this and many other ideas a lot of thought. This just seemed cheap and I had most of the stuff.;)

[AllenFord_SC]

Very clever and very well thought out. :thumbsup: I might borrow and tweak this if ya don't mind.

[oldsaltman]

If you do tweak it any please share how you do it. ;)

[oldsaltman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8941887#post8941887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chinaman4u
Just a related link

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1014442

Thanks for the link. The reason I didn't go with relays and solenoids is because of the saltwater tank. A solenoid that will take saltwater is very pricy. Even the regular ones are more costly that the aqualifter pumps. ;)

[AllenFord_SC]

Wouldn't be any major changes, just tweaking to my system. Perhaps a little more water per day given i have a 150. I really like your concept here.

[oldsaltman]

Yea, that would work. I only have about 60g with all my sump, refuge etc. ;)

[AllenFord_SC]

Currently my water changes are pretty straight forward. I have a valve on my return line from my sump that tee's off to a drain line running to my washing machine drain. I open this up and close the valve to the tank until my sump reaches a line I have drawn on it. Then I just close the valve and open the return valve. I then open a valve that is gravity feed from my pre mixed container I have on a rolling stand that i put in front of my sump. It's simple and my hands stay dry but I'm always looking for something easier.

[oldsaltman]

I was doing mine about the same way. Mine is gravity fed from the laundry room and all I did was turn valves I just wanted the automation so it would work even I was gone. ;)