OT: An Inconvenient Truth

[Nu2SW]

OK so I am half way thru watching this movie, It touches on the effects of global warming. Now we have had this discussion before and you guys have put out some great post's with data in them.

But this movie, makes you open an eye. It touches base on about everything. Talks about coral reefs, the ice shelf in Antarctica, Hurricanes, floods. Im one to say, well it all happens in cycles. The world goes thru these cycles every so many thousands of years. But some of the data that is presented is just incredible.

If you haven't watched it yet, please do.

[Unarce]

I haven't watched it and wasn't planning to. The earths changing cycles does seem to be the argument that makes more sense. I remember when the whole polar bear decline claim came about. If we're truly going through another warm cycle, they'll adapt and survive just like they did 1,000 years ago, when Greenland was actually green:)

[Nu2SW]

oh no I understand, But I am the type of person that a person shouldn't limit them selves to one side of the story. Get both sides and make a informed judgement. Like I said I think the same way as you, But when there is data shown and you can see it on paper how every year is different.

One example was the level of Co2 Gas in the world from 200,000 years ago to now. They got the data by taking drilled Core samples of Ice from the northpole. Its always been about the same, then humans became more prominent and started using technology and it Shot up.

So It makes you think. Dont have to run out and rent it, But Id put it on a watch list.

[pepe.king.prawn]

Doesnt sound right to me..... Adaptation usually occurs through evolution, which is not likely to occur rapidly enough to save a population that's in severe decline. Though I don't claim to know anything of polar bear populations.

Seeing as how the human race is estimated to have about 5 generations left due to current consumption of resources, population explosion and diminishing farm lands, I'm not all too concerned with global warming. The change is much broader than "stop driving suv's" and things like that. The changes that need to be made are fundamental changes to people's lifestyle. If you find a way to change this, I promise you'll win atleast one nobel prize.

[dots]

An enviromental Geology class I took talked about this as I was saying before.

Everyone agrees that the industrial revolution has had an effect, just to what degree is truly the debated part. Man has the habit of being egocentric in his place in the world and the universe.....we are only hap hazard squaters until the conditions change for less than optimum conditions for us........see: Dinosaurs

I really wish i could find this data....but we were studing this very same thing, and I was skeptical as anyone else.....but when he layed the temp levels, which we are on the tail end of a COOLING cycle and is turning back, with the CO2 levels which were declining until recently,

(a couple of million years ago If I remember corectly the levels were on the order of 10x larger hense all the vegetation and 200,000 years is nothing in geological time, a mere second in comparison. They only went back that far for a reason, or couldn't go deeper, geologists know thats not a very long time),

this was all stacked with the Milakonvich cycles over it.....and it all corelated.....Its all cyclic....weather we contribute to it some or not, our days may be limited one way or another.....Remember, 90% of ALL things that have EVER lived on the Earth are extinct......why should we be any different?

Sure, cars and machines put out tons a day........but one of the larger causes to atmopheric heating is volcanoes, which can put out in a matter of minutes take years for our SUVs to put out.......Im just trying to point out, there is more than just us at fault/cause here.

The problem is we really DONT know how much effect on the enviorment our actions have........

The good thing about humans is the fact we observe and can adapt, which is what probably will happen.......Though, we will not change our ways due to economical and political reasons until the VERY LAST moment and we will only then change......unfortunatly thats in our nature that we are a reactive, not a proactive species no matter how much we try to arque to contrary.

I think at the core of this arguement is that man thinks he matters in the universe, posibly due to theological ideals, but that egocentrism I believe is what is really the arquement that people have..........can this specie, kill the planet?......Nope, but they can kill themselves off and wreck thier enviroment, so then maybe the cockaroaches will get their shot!!!!

[Justin74]

From what Ive been seeing lately we're ( me and you) more likely to get hit by an asteroid.


-Justin

[Nu2SW]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8988563#post8988563 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74
From what Ive been seeing lately we're ( me and you) more likely to get hit by an asteroid.


-Justin

I doubt that, The glacier Ice caps in antarctic bigger then rhode island broke off in 3 months. It raised the sea level 20 feet in march of 2002.
http://nsidc.org/iceshelves/larsenb2002/

The threat is there, but when it happens no one will know. I will say probably sometime in my lifetime I will see something big. We cant think for us, we need to think for our kids and grand kids.

[Justin74]

Doubt all you want but thats the most viable argument to the cause of the distinction of dinosaurs to date. Let alone how riddled our planet is with previous impacts. There associating these impacts with increased levels of Co2 and everything that goes along with that, temperature fluctuations, genocide of mass species within certain geographical locals, etc. on bigger scales than have ever been recorded by volcanic activity. Scary thing is that there not only impacting, like the deal that happend durring the turn of the century over in Russia that leveled miles and miles of forest by an asteroid that exploded before impact.

-Justin

[Justin74]

http://www.astrobio.net/articles/images/KT_hit.jpg

The painting titled "K/T Hit" This impact occured 65 million years ago, ending the reign of the dinosaurs.

Our understanding of those events now leads us to believe that any comet or asteroid greater than 20 kilometers in diameter that strikes the Earth will result in the complete annihilation of complex life - animals and higher plants. How many times in our galaxy alone has life finally evolved to the equivalent of our planets and animals on some far distant planet, only to be utterly destroyed by an impact? Surely this has been a commonplace event in the vast cosmos.

referenced: http://www.astrobio.net/news/article378.html

-Justin

[Justin74]

Some more great articles relative to our oceans and marine organisms:
http://www.astrobio.net/news/Topic4.html


I eat this stuff up! ;)


-Justin

[Nu2SW]

That is a cool site.

[Capt'n Ron]

It's kinda' hard to take that whole "Global Warming" argument seriously when the local temps have been dipping below freezing all this last week, and the forecasted lows are still in the mid 30's for the next 10 days. My only concern is that Al Gore is expelling more hot air than the cows that are now being blamed for greenhouse gasses.
http://homepage.mac.com/mes/iblog/B337353584/C1870282643/E20061213061926/index.html
http://www.greenhouse.crc.org.au/greenhouse_in_agriculture/methane.cfm
http://www.show.me.uk/site/news/STO873.html

[Nu2SW]

But that is what happens, During the winter time while the earth is on a different access, more co2 is expelled because the trees that are dropping leaves. They release more Co2 into the air.

The world does go thru cycles, but its winter time. every season has its different affects. Apple's call center in austin,tx is closing today and tomorrow because of the Ice storms there. That's how bad its going to be. Im not saying this is because of global warming. What we are going thru Probably has some tie in's, But I dont know what they would be. The main emphasis on the whole thing is during the summer time when the Co2 in the air can cause a drought. Like In africa, where one of the worlds largest inland lakes dried up because of the lack of rain. Its west of darfur.

be it cow farts or emissions from factory's and plants. It does cause some cause for concern.

[dots]

Here is a little more fuel for the fire.....its kinda along the lines that the class talked about, some of those corelation graphs are pretty cool....too bad they can't be enlarged.

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/samson/climate_patterns/

[boviac]

Wow... how true it is that there are wide spread theories... First, I personally agree with the name 'Climate Change' as that is what it ("Global Warming") will do globally. What I'm finding to be hilarious is how many people feel we still don't know enough or it doesn't matter - so why do anything at all. I think we can all agree there has been some pretty interesting effects (recently record hottest year(s) on record, record high temps, record cold temps, extreme hurricanes, melting/detaching ice, floods, droughts, global sea level changes, etc...) that Can be attributed to climate change but not everyone is convicned. Each one in and of itself I can see doubt. But there is a bigger picture here. Yes, the Earth can and has had its own effect on climate (i.e. Ice Ages to the current warmth we live in). But if you haven't realized that 6+ Billion people with industrial technology cannot have an effect on the planet... think again. What scares me is we as a society have gotten used to sea level being a standard and how much of our society is very near sea level. Further, there are very nice oceanic currents that rely on saltwater density to operate correctly; only a bit lower seawater density (read: melting ice) could cease the already weakening currents and then we'll see some real climate change!

The real question is what are we going to do about it. I sense a change is in the air for us. I want for us to change before it is too late. Our grandparents though that humans could not ever do anything to pollute the great big world. It is our generation's opportunity to not only correct that fallacy but fundamentally change to live sustainably. So who wants a Solar PV system? he he :D

For the record, in the movie Gore went back 650,000 years. Note: CO2 never went above 300 ppm. (although in the link provided by dots, I see one part where it may be at 305ppm - yes, very small graphs!) I do believe there were several large volcanic events (Yellowstone's 0.64MYa event for one) during that time period and still CO2 globally never exceeded ~300 ppm... until now.

Finally, even if we can adapt & survive, what about biodiversity? If we truely are causing or simply significantly helping this change, what do we owe the remaining life with which we share this planet? Sooner or later we may realize we really do need a lot of these creatures to help keep everything in balance and what I find to be a rather beautiful world.

Read/See Dr. Seuss' 'The Lorax' for a nice summary.

[Nu2SW]

Chris, you nailed it. Ya he did go back 650,000 years and in that time frame Co2 never went above 300ppm. But what they are projecting for the next 50 years is Like 2.5 times that.

With the currents you were talking about, the great lakes of the USA. That use to be one big sheet of ice. untill it melted into the atlantic and stopped the current, which then made Europe had a iceage for about a 1000 years.

If half of green and half of west Antarctica or all of Greenland melted. Billions would be dead. As an example the San francisco bay. Fremont, newark, hayward, oakland would be under water. Miami florida would be gone, orlando. Part of new york.

It makes you think, if its true, If it happened that would be devastating.

[Justin74]

Ya but think of Sacramento's new founded ocean front realestate. Our market would sky rocket! oh.....:hmm2:

-Justin

[Nu2SW]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8992891#post8992891 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74
Ya but think of Sacramento's new founded ocean front realestate. Our market would sky rocket! oh.....:hmm2:

-Justin

LOL

[boviac]

Justin/All,

Check out this clip. http://www.net.org/globalwarming/sea_level/Sarasota.mov

It shows the land covered by water from Sacramento to SF from an estimated 1m (~3ft) rise in sea level. Unfortunately, if it goes up 1m, I doubt it will stop there. Much of Sac elevation is low - between 16ft (downtown) and gradually rising up to 200+ in Folsom, you may find your ocean front property will be UW next. Ocean front values??? Housing costs are already way above income levels. Hmm... with volatile storm surges in the future, I'm not sure ocean front property will be all that great. Hey, more power to ya! :D

We visit Florida in the summer for my wife's family reunion and stay on Siesta Key just south of Sarasota, FL. Here's a clip of that area:
http://www.net.org/globalwarming/sea_level/Sarasota.mov
Wonder how long before that happens?

Hey, I know everyone is allowed their own opinion on this matter but a majority of scientist that are experts in their fields on this matter are convinced we ARE affecting climate change. And finally, the debate really is now on just how much. But really it should be on what are we going to do about it.

What simply needs to happen is that we need to realize that we do have a choice and can effect change. With the potential effects from climate change, to me it’s no longer valid to consider if this politically or economically viable. This is something that should be the foremost in all discussions. That's my $.02. :D