Acro info on "Wild Things" on PBS

[SDguy]

Did anyone catch the "Wild Things" episode on PBS about the equator? They talked about some really interesting stuff about acropora, specifically.

Not sure on the copyright of the material, so don't know how current it is. They said that by shape (did not specifiy if they meant corallite or overall colony shape) there are about 250 species. Less than half that by looking at genetics. They also talked about acro reproduction, how the baby coral takes in algae from the surrounding water, and only then does it become zooxanthellae. They also went into hybridization, and talked about how, abnormally frequently, acros hybridize AND produce not only viable, but fertile, offspring. They went so far as to suggest that perhaps there are truly only about 20 "super species" to explain these observations.

Anyway, really interesting stuff. Thought I'd share.

[stony_corals]

Interesting. The hybridization stuff is news to me.... It is said that some clam species may mix species, but the new clam book states that isn't true, but that there is deviations that may be explained by simple environment issues, i.e. a crocea often may have deformed shell shape, but it may be because of the number of croceas that may grow into each other due to crocea population density. Interesting stuff...

[SDguy]

Well, they repeat these shows ALL the time, if anyone wants to set their DVR...definitely worth watching for anyone in this forum, IMO.

[MiddletonMark]

It is good information ... and one reason [IMO] to not get hung up or concern yourself with naming Acropora to species level [might not be that useful of info, might be completely wrong].

If that's up your alley and you don't mind some semi-heavy reading, J.E.N. Veron's `Corals in space and time' is a cool book with lots on this topic + the history of corals.

[sfsuphysics]

I would prefer naming Acropora down to the species though over giving them some fancy name :)

That being said I would still like people to name species specifically, even if they are a hybrid and get one of the species right.. ie say Acropora Microphthalama, and not necessarily Acropora Micro-Hybrid or whatever.

[marinelife]

I do not see the show listed at all, do you have the full name or a link to it

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8997448#post8997448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics
I would prefer naming Acropora down to the species though over giving them some fancy name :)

That being said I would still like people to name species specifically, even if they are a hybrid and get one of the species right.. ie say Acropora Microphthalama, and not necessarily Acropora Micro-Hybrid or whatever.
Problem is, according to the scientist types you need to do more than just eyeball it alive to really ID ... so by their standards, our ID's are bunk [or so I've heard].

And then - what use is species ID? Unless used for one's ego, I don't see any specific care info that comes from it.

While I don't like the naming for selling [hobby names] - I do find being able to link exact clones via names to be a very useful tool to learn about care. Because any for-sure-clone of someone else's coral gives you lots of other reefers who know how to care for that exact piece.
I can ask about folks experience with A. yongei or something - but theirs could come from 5' depth or 100' depth and from very different reefs ... meaning the info I get just via species, IMO, is overly generalized and may not apply to the colony I have.
But when I talk to folks about the ORA/Cali tort - there's hundreds of folks with genetic clones of my exact coral - I can get very accurate advice from people who have kept the exact 100% same coral as I'm getting. IMO, this is a huge difference in advice I can get - and while I don't love naming to raise the price ... knowing genetic lineage + that I have an exact clone of others stuff makes RC/online advice incredibly useful.
Then again, when folks name new imports by old names that look similar, it throws off that whole thing as someone else's `superman' could be a wild colony from a completely different reef [and thus, act/color/thrive differently].

JMO, though ... I've never been big on species-level ID of Acropora [partly due to issues with consistency/accuracy, partly due to the fact that reading Wallace/Veron they're not exactly 100% on how useful species splitting is for Acropora, and partly due to the fact that any information I get regarding species is so generalized to be no more than what I could have guessed already IMO].

But please, feel free to disagree :) It's the only way we learn [I've still got more to learn, don't know about you].

[SDguy]

marinelife - The show is called "Wild Things". Go to PBS.org to find the listings for your area. The episode was about the Equator. They've been replaying it lately, along with some episode about baby animals.

Mike - I agree. But I think for cultured corals, an agreed upon common name, regardless of how it reflect true species ID, would also be great. That way I wouldn't have ended up with three completely different looking stags that, after a few months in my tank, all look exactly the same :rolleyes:

Thanks Mark, I'll check that out.

[GSMguy]

i saw it it was awsome was this the pbs show about the artiicial reefs on the pacific created by the boats wrecks lots of video of acros tables and such

[ReeferAl]

Mark,
I agree completely. I don't have a problem with someone calling an acro they are fragging "John's green giant" if that name is used only as a tracking tool and not to hype a coral and inflate its price. It does allow people to know what they're getting and what to expect from it. Such names (as long as they aren't hijacked by unrelated fraggers) are more useful IMO than a guessed-at species identification.

Allen

[jmaneyapanda]

The eality of the matter is that true taxonomic identification is usually dependant on skeletal, axial, and corallite structure, not outward appearance. We can take a stab at it, but true ID's are not as easy (or correct) as claimed by some.

[MiddletonMark]

Totally agree, Al.

I enjoyed Gooch's stuff that way, as all us WI folks had the same corals and could compare care info.

These days, with `hot names' + their impostors, it's getting hard to do. Plus, it plays into the LE-phenomenon, which is one of my least favorite parts of the hobby. But it's a shame about that ... it's such useful information to talk to folks in Ca, Tn, NY, etc and be able to use their experience with pieces to guide my own placement/care when we all have the exact same coral colony. ORA is beneficial that way [or other large propagators like TCN/LA/etc] ... as they're commonly available and all clones.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8997820#post8997820 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
i saw it it was awsome was this the pbs show about the artiicial reefs on the pacific created by the boats wrecks lots of video of acros tables and such

No. It was about different locations on the equator. Thus, they also had a whole segment about some sort of lama from the Andes that has twice as many RBC in their system to help them with energy needs in the O2 deprived environment.

Mark, I couldn't agree more or have said it any better than you, with regard to your posts here...

[MiddletonMark]

GSMguy - I think you're thinking of the 2005 or 2006 Nature special [think that was it] on PBS that was `War Wrecks of the Pacific' or something.
Marshall Islands + such ... and it was absolutely amazing, all these reefs grown on old WW II stuff. While perhaps not as educational as this one ... certainly phenomenal eye-candy [saw it 3 times, it was worth each watching :)].

[scotter]

There are two Equator shows that focus on equatorial reefs: "Reef of Riches" and "Power of an Ocean." "Reef of Riches" focuses on the reefs of Raja Ampat (Papua, Indonesia) and the other show "Power of an Ocean" focuses on Palmyra Atoll and the Galapagos Islands. While they may be on PBS now, the shows were originally aired in the US on HDNet. The other Equator shows feature the Amazon basin, the high Andes and the Great Rift Valley, Africa.

If you have Tivo or DVR, select "Wish List" under Programs to Record and type in the word "Equator." It just recently aired again on HDNet after a 6 month hiatus. It may be a while again before the series is reaired

[reefgeek84]

is it only in HD...I can not find anything on this on their site.

[SDguy]

Actually, I just checked it from my DVR. The show is Wild Things - Ecuator - Challenge of the Cold. The reef stuff is only a portion....

Non HD.

[GSMguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8998502#post8998502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
GSMguy - I think you're thinking of the 2005 or 2006 Nature special [think that was it] on PBS that was `War Wrecks of the Pacific' or something.
Marshall Islands + such ... and it was absolutely amazing, all these reefs grown on old WW II stuff. While perhaps not as educational as this one ... certainly phenomenal eye-candy [saw it 3 times, it was worth each watching :)].
it was awsome sweet artificial reefs

[ReeferAl]

I had the good fortune of being able to dive a couple of the wrecks in Kwajalein, M.I. back in the early '90s. Pretty amazing in real life too. It's too bad the area isn't open to the public.

Allen

[sfsuphysics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8997838#post8997838 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
. I don't have a problem with someone calling an acro they are fragging "John's green giant" if that name is used only as a tracking tool and not to hype a coral and inflate its price.

Me either really. Knowing the species name is just an anal retentive thing of me since I like to know what type it generally is. Kind of like saying "I have a redwood tree in my backyard" Well what type? Coastal? Gigantic? What?

And the "IF" that you mentioned is a HUGE if. Some places get corals from particular coral growers and they have titles to name where they got it because they aren't seen anywhere, Hugo's etc, Jesus' Etc, however some places such as ReeferMadness, as great as the guy is, and as nice as the corals are EVERYTHING has a fancy titled name. That is done more so for marketing, doubly so since there are actual pictures of the coral (regardless of any sort of photoshop arguments) there, so why put all the additional adjectives?

That way I wouldn't have ended up with three completely different looking stags that, after a few months in my tank, all look exactly the same

But this poses the question, and based off a true story (aka my tank) what if I have 3 separate pieces of the same coral that end up turning different colors? Do each of them get a separate naming designation? Acropora Millepora, has had one particular green one, turn pink, one blue one turn green and a purple and a blue (all from the same mother colony). At this point I just like to say it's a Millepora, green or whatever.

Anyways I need to find this show, I absolutely love these PBS/BBC type nature shows, seem to be much more informative than Discovery or TLC produced ones.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8999734#post8999734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sfsuphysics

But this poses the question, and based off a true story (aka my tank) what if I have 3 separate pieces of the same coral that end up turning different colors? Do each of them get a separate naming designation? Acropora Millepora, has had one particular green one, turn pink, one blue one turn green and a purple and a blue (all from the same mother colony). At this point I just like to say it's a Millepora, green or whatever.

That's exactly my point. For your example, say it was "Pete's milli". So even if you went to the LFS and saw a milli that was completely different color than anything you have, including your own Pete's milli(s), if it was labeled a Pete's milli, you would know not to buy it as you already have it.

Had the stags I bought had a unified, accepted name, I would have know not to buy the repeats.

[reefgeek84]

But this poses the question, and based off a true story (aka my tank) what if I have 3 separate pieces of the same coral that end up turning different colors? Do each of them get a separate naming designation? Acropora Millepora, has had one particular green one, turn pink, one blue one turn green and a purple and a blue (all from the same mother colony). At this point I just like to say it's a Millepora, green or

I agree with you. This whole naming thing caught on as a sort of a fluke. It started by someone selling a really cool coral that Tyree (this is just a example, cause unless you are living under a rock you know his name) bought and sold, had his name attached to it. People then started to seek these "rare" tyree corals and pay top dollar for them. Then other people got hip to this "naming margin" on the coral, and everyone has a name in front of the coral or for the coral now.

I have 10-15 corals in my tank that I have never seen before, so I should start naming them and charge a whole bunch of money for them. This fad has hindered this hobby somewhat. If something is a different color, all of the sudden it is a "rare" coral. Problem with this is that the same coral can have a color change depending on the environment it is in, so it makes no sense.

Do not get me wrong there is some valid distinct and crazy color variations, that are definitely not the usual coral, but for the most part this whole naming thing has gotten out of hand. It is what marketing professionals dream of and take years of practice to figure out how to market something so well, with so little effort.

[SDguy]

Lets not confuse naming with labeling. I like knowing my wall anchor euphyllia is different than my branching hammer euphyllia. Names to identify. No rare, or LE's attached....it makes talking/selling easier. That is all I want out of it.

Back to the OP, something I also thought about after watching the show. Do my acros continue to have the ability to take in algae and use them as zooxanthellae, rather than just produce more of what they already have in their tissue?

For example, my acros pretty much all have some sort of a green tint to them after a while in my tank. I assume due to nutrients and/or type of lighting. Don't get me wrong, it's beautiful...everything from forest, to emerald, to mint greens. But could this be due to the acros taking in a certain type of algae I may have floating around in my tank, and therefore all my corals take on the green tint to one extent or another? Or perhaps even one coral contributing to the zooxanthellae population that the other acros introduced later to the tank, take in to themselves?

[reefgeek84]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9001669#post9001669 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Lets not confuse naming with labeling. I like knowing my wall anchor euphyllia is different than my branching hammer euphyllia. Names to identify. No rare, or LE's attached....it makes talking/selling easier. That is all I want out of it.


No I understand that, I think there is some confusion on terms here. I agree that they should have some common names, branching, tabling, wall, tort, milli, etc. but Pink lemonaid, christmas tree, Purple monster, etc. is out of hand.

[Cody Ray]

I personally dislike giving corals names that don't reflect their growth pattern. Unless someone showed me a piece of "superman montipora" or "sunset monti". I wouldn't have any idea what this corals growth patter would be. I would have an idea of what colors it had but that doesn't really reflect what kind of flow and lighting it will need. Now if someone said "staghorn acro" I would know that this coral is branching and will require high flow. Same with a "table/plate" or "bottle brush" acro. I'm also a stickler for trying to get an accurate species name for corals.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9002290#post9002290 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChinChek787
I personally dislike giving corals names that don't reflect their growth pattern.
Given that growth pattern is highly dependent on the micro-climate the coral is living in ... then beyond generic decriptive terms [staghorn] there really aren't any good names.

As one of Veron's books points out, corals of diff. species growing next to each other are likely to look similar vs. corals of the same species living in diff parts of the reef may likely look different.

It's sort of a zero-sum game.

I too dislike the naming as marketing, but appreciate the naming to link clonal lineages. Given the kind of fragmentation reproduction we're practicing, some sort of tie between the corals is useful information ... perhaps we should just propose numbering them or another such `non-silly' label method?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9002590#post9002590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
As one of Veron's books points out, corals of diff. species growing next to each other are likely to look similar vs. corals of the same species living in diff parts of the reef may likely look different.

It's sort of a zero-sum game.

I too dislike the naming as marketing, but appreciate the naming to link clonal lineages. Given the kind of fragmentation reproduction we're practicing, some sort of tie between the corals is useful information ... perhaps we should just propose numbering them or another such `non-silly' label method?

Exactly. And in that vein, I'm actually pretty surprised that ORA for example (no bashing here, just an observation) has so many of their SPS simply identified (beyond common name) as Acropora sp. Is there no where/one for them to send a bleached frag skeleton to for better identification? For that matter, if I wanted to get a better idea of my coral ID's, is there no one that could ID them for me using bleached skelton frags, so I may keep the correct ID's passed along when I frag and give to fellow reefers. I suppose almost like a registry. Eventually people would start to overlap and have most corals in common I would think...

[MiddletonMark]

There was a thread a few years back about Acro ID ...
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=366161

Not a lot of folks have the drive to get through the process ...

[SDguy]

Yes, I remember that thread. Still, it seems a somewhat desirable need that is missing from the ever growing coral aquaculture business.

[ReeferAl]

I didn't review that thread, but I will add that I have heard the experts say that even skeletal features of captive-grown corals may be misleading as the structures may not be quite the same in captive-grown vs wild corals. Still, that would be useful as it would certainly get closer to the "true" species of the coral than guesses based on gross appearance. Of course, this assumes there there really is such a thing as "species" when referring to corals and not just a continuum of coral morphology and genetics within the genus.

Allen

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9012236#post9012236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
I didn't review that thread, but I will add that I have heard the experts say that even skeletal features of captive-grown corals may be misleading as the structures may not be quite the same in captive-grown vs wild corals. Still, that would be useful as it would certainly get closer to the "true" species of the coral than guesses based on gross appearance. Of course, this assumes there there really is such a thing as "species" when referring to corals and not just a continuum of coral morphology and genetics within the genus.

Allen

which I think is what the show was actually alluding to...

[Serioussnaps]

Check out the science channel, "predators, something"....a special about the Crown of Throns Starfish and the great barrier reef, nothing but pure reef and corals and oh god its the shiznit....

[Serioussnaps]

Check out the science channel, "predators, something"....a special about the Crown of Throns Starfish and the great barrier reef, nothing but pure reef and corals and oh god its the shiznit....

Ill get an exact title tomorrow, its a must see for all of you.

[Leonardo_]

I have this series on DVD.

The series you talked about is called "Equator" and the episode is called "Reef of Riches" Its from Discovery Channel, in HD.

This are a few short Fragments of this Doc:

Fragment(long) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07N4VdUD1aQ)

fragment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbwdanoGImI)

fragment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTtgBwj6-Zc)

This is the most informative Doc I've seen, also many shots of mostly Acropora. A must see!

Leonardo

[marinelife]

Leonardo's Reef - what series you have on DVD? I want Equator but have yet to find it on DVD

[DaddyJax]

Someone said that the whole "naming" of corals has hindered the hobby, I disagree. It is frustrating for alot of people to try to pronounce the scientific names of most of these corals much less remember them. Birdsnest, Stag, Cap, Chalice...these are also common fancy names a while back but they stayed and became staples for the species. I agree that there are alot of funny names out there but it also has given the newbie a little more confidence and connection with their corals. If anything the naming of corals has helped the popularity of reef systems. More people are switching to reef tanks and getting "The bug" than ever before. I am in no way saying that the "naming" is the reason but it is one of them.
It is just alot easier for someone to tell there friends "That's a Superman Monti" or "That's a Purple Pillow" then having to stumble over the scientific name that could or could not be right.

This is just my observation and opinion.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9020019#post9020019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leonardo's Reef
I have this series on DVD.

The series you talked about is called "Equator" and the episode is called "Reef of Riches" Its from Discovery Channel, in HD.


Leonardo

Thanks Leonardo, that's it! I guess they renamed it to show on PBS.

[greenbean36191]

Do my acros continue to have the ability to take in algae and use them as zooxanthellae, rather than just produce more of what they already have in their tissue?

For example, my acros pretty much all have some sort of a green tint to them after a while in my tank. I assume due to nutrients and/or type of lighting. Don't get me wrong, it's beautiful...everything from forest, to emerald, to mint greens. But could this be due to the acros taking in a certain type of algae I may have floating around in my tank, and therefore all my corals take on the green tint to one extent or another? Or perhaps even one coral contributing to the zooxanthellae population that the other acros introduced later to the tank, take in to themselves?
They can only take in zooxanthellae to use as zooxanthellae, i.e. they can take in Symbiodinium. Yes, they can continue to do it over their entire life and in fact after bleaching events corals often replace one clade of zooxanthellae with a more heat resistant clade.

As for green algae, they would be endolithic, meaning that they live in the skeleton of the coral, not in the tissue like the zooxanthellae. They actually make up a large amount of the biomass of the coral, and some estimates put it at a higher percentage than the animal itself. There is some speculation that they also benefit the coral in much the same way as the zooxanthellae, but AFAIK it hasn't been investigated that well. The amount and type of endolithic algae can change as well.

More than likely though, the green tint you're seeing is green flourescent protein, which is one of the most common pigments in cnidarians. It's a light regulating pigment.

[Leonardo_]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9020116#post9020116 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinelife
Leonardo's Reef - what series you have on DVD? I want Equator but have yet to find it on DVD

I have the series I was talking about on DVD. It isn't available here in Europe, so I recorded it from TV, wrote it on DVD after that :)

SDguy: When I head the description I knew it had to be this Doc :)

Leonardo

[marinelife]

ok great thanks, I have it on DVR

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9020273#post9020273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191

More than likely though, the green tint you're seeing is green flourescent protein, which is one of the most common pigments in cnidarians. It's a light regulating pigment.

That would explain why my acros look like one big glowing green forest at night under the moonlight LED...