"pastel" colors vs. deep dark coloring

[jpierson77]

I have noticed that my corals seem to be a pastel rather that the deep dark coloring some recieve. I have an orange cap that is more hot pink than orange. My green slimer is an eletric neon green rather than what I see in pics. And my purple/green cap is not nearly as dark green or purple as it was, now more light purple and light green. What causes this. Growth is very good. I run Rowa-phos in a reactor prodibio and skim heavily. I have heard the zeo systems tend to be more pastel colored because of well the system works. Is this a lack of nutrients that mkes the colors lighter?

[NewSchool04]

You hit the nail on the head, lack of nutrients usually lighten your acros.

[jpierson77]

so just feed more?

[kirstenk]

T5 tend to produce lighter coral colors than 20K Halide. Its not all about nutrients.

[jpierson77]

I had two 400 mh se on there before and had the same coloration in fact, I actually think my coloring is a little better now with the t-5, i know my growth is better.

[jpierson77]

I had two 400 mh se on there before and had the same coloration in fact, I actually think my coloring is a little better now with the t-5, i know my growth is better.

[NewSchool04]

My T5's don't produce lighter colors.

I have noticed some of my acros fading though lately, right after I started mixing vinegar with my kalk for a more potent dose. The vinegar feeds bacteria which begin to multiply and ultimately make a very nutrient poor environment. My water looked crystal clear, I never had to use the mag float because there was nothing on the glass and my acros, especially my purples began to fade.
I think it's the same principle.

[jpierson77]

When i scrape my glass it is a avery light dusting that comes off, used to require busting out the razor blade every month and a half to get the heavy stuff but not any more. i guess ill just feed some more try that

[DaddyJax]

Add a fish or 5 and increase the feedings to once a day at least.

[jpierson77]

Well i just bought an awesome ruby head wrasse so im going working that direction. thanks everyone

[antonsemrad]

I think that the golden/brown zooxanthellae are responsible for the darker pigments. This speaks to the paradox of contemporary methods of keeping stoney corals IMO.

It has been our goal for a long time to keep tank water low in dissoved nutrients like on natural coral reefs. Corals have adapted to survive in this environment with lots of mouths for eating, and the zooxanthellae recycle the coral poo, turning it into carbohydrates/sugar that the coral then makes mucus with. In an aquarium though, its not always the same. If there are excess dissolved nutrients in the water column, the zooxanthellae get to eat, but the coral eats less. That can throw the symbiosis out of balance, causing slower growth, and poor health. However, nowadays folks are keeping dissoved nutrients much lower than before, but may or may not be providing enough nutrients in the form of prey capture. If there is less food for the coral, then there is in turn less coral poo that feed the zooxanthellae. They in turn die and/or are expelled.

I have never seen a real reef, but from the pictures and moves that I have seen, there has not been any 'pastel' colored corals, and likewise there has always been crap (aggregates/detritus) floating all over the place. That leads me to believe that 'light/pastel' corals are in fact malnourished. Now don't get me wrong, zeo tanks, and rainbow colored 'sps' reef tanks can be quite a sight to behold, and it sure does seem like the corals can adapt and grow quite well in this environment, so I can sure see why this is the goal of many hobbyists. But that does not nessesarly mean that the coral is in a 'natural' state, or that the coral is 'healthy'.

When the subject of malnourished/bleached corals comes up in this forum the conventional wisdom is Add a fish or 5 and increase the feedings to once a day at least. But I am not convinced that this is the best answer. I have no doubt that it works, but that does not mean that its the best method.

First of all, more fish will result in more dissolved nitrogen (ammonia) in the water column. Often the tanks with these issues are already lacking sand, and/or algae, and, we are using less live rock than we did before. It seems to me that these are best lines of defence in combating this unwanted byproduct. In the past, I have suggested the intermentant use of the protein skimmer, but that idea was dissmissed because of concern for ammonia, and oxygen. But that for some reason dosn't apply for adding fish.
Second, digestion comes at an energy cost to the coral, so one might perhaps consider the nutrient profile of the food that the coral is eating. Take flakefood for example, who knows whats in it to begin with, then its dried, stored for god knows how long, fed to the fish, digested, and then the coral eats it. Better than nothing, but why not feed gut loaded zooplanton to the fish? Why not just feed it to the coral? If you like to use seafood, why use the fish to make it small enough for the coral to eat? Wouldn't a kitchen appliance work just as well?

Anton

[Serioussnaps]

Ive been running T5's and they have been showing significantly "lighter" colors. I even feed pappone, dt's oe's nightly unskimmed and get a slight nitrate reading weekly. IMO I am starting to believe its the T5's despite what i used to think. On the contrary, New School has a HUGE bioload...just ask what is in his tank. My "lighter" colors arent due to the bulb combination.....not bleaching them..run heavy blue plus.

I used to be in the BB/destroy nutrient club...but now I am all for adding nutrients, albeit to add nutrients to my humble set up means dumping and dumping and dumping, figuring out that is the whole point of BB except to have control of it.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9094293#post9094293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by antonsemrad
Why not just feed it to the coral? If you like to use seafood, why use the fish to make it small enough for the coral to eat? Wouldn't a kitchen appliance work just as well?

Great post, and a great point.

I too do not see why one would need to add fish just to feed the coral more. Just feed the coral already.

I think along a similar vein regarding pastel-tanks vs. deeper-color tanks. Lack of food/nutrient, dissolved/capture imbalance, and with the light/etc we now achieve over our tanks ... IMO I see a similar thing going on.

Export is vital, but it is not the only key to keeping stony corals IMO.

[NewSchool04]

maybe it's the BB Serioussnaps? I've seen a lot of BB tanks with both MH or T5 and they seem to run towards more of the pastel, lighter colors.

[Pomachantus Paru]

Fantastic post, just wanted to say that I totally agree with the point of view that a higher amount of food will cause the sps to be darker with better growth. Living by the sea in Rio de Janeiro, I've got a huge access to natural water, loaded with zoo and phytoplankton, that I do enrich. IME a "dirtier"water is best to our corals in general, and I do agree that adding fish, though a encouraging thought, it's not the best idea.

[glassbox-design]

....nitrogen limitation

[jpierson77]

I have a dsb, and im seeing pastel colors, however i in no way calim to be an expert. I think that with my 400w mh i was expirencing photo inhabition and that is why my growth rates are up now with t-5. I have nearly dubbled my bubble count on my calcium reactor in order to maintain my alk and calcium levels since switching. I think the coloring is a bit better with the t-5 but this could be due to the ati blue+ bulbs being more pleasing to my eye.
I am guilty of trying to do everything possible to keep the nutrients down as much as possible. I tend to only feed my fish every other day. I feed mysis, krill, nori, angel and brine cubes alternating trying not to feed any one thing too often. For coral food i have made a blender mush of krill, mysis and cyclopeeze. I have tried the pappone if I remember right( clam mussel shrimp oysters) however i can not get the size down to where I feel the corals can get it. I also feed DT's oyster eggs. However I generally only feed the corals once a week maybe twice.
With that said how often are you guys feeding. I think that anton is correct when he said there is more free floating "materal" in the ocean, of which the corals maybe using as food all day long rather than once or twice a week.

[jpierson77]

Flint please explain?

[DaddyJax]

The reason I believe in the fish load is because of the food breakdown. Food goes through their digestive systems and breaks food down into easily digested forms for the corals to absorb and use without spending a lot of energy breaking down undigested food. Not to say that they can't but I believe it is easier for them. I run a BB system and don't have any pastel corals and I feed twice a day with around thirty fish. There is so much balance that needs to take place that I think we over complicate things sometimes. I mix up my food with Brine and Cyclopeze. I don't use a P04 remover but I also don't use a reactor. I know that in the wild there are a bountiful amount of fish living and swimming and eating around the reef. They release easily digested amino acid's and nutrients through detritus along with also feeding zooplankton and pods and other bacteria and so on. All of these things play a part in a nice cycle that gives our corals the needed nutrients from every angle.

This is just my opinion and experience.

[antonsemrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9096035#post9096035 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
....nitrogen limitation

Exactly!!!!
This is from Eric B's food series (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-08/eb/index.php)


"Unfortunately, zooxanthellae don’t make much else besides sugar. The coral squeezes out what it can, but not much more ever results. In particular, nitrogen, once again, is a problem. It seems everyone on the reef is always scrambling for nitrogen,the substance needed to produce protein; proteins required for nematocysts, vitamins, tissue maintenance, injury repair, cell division, growth, gamete production, even the very toxins used to paralyze prey. Proteins are the ticket to growth and reproduction in zooxanthellae, as well as for coral polyps. Thus, it may come as little surprise that this great sugar fix provided by symbiotic algae comes up rather nutritionally short in the course of coral nutrition. To survive and, hopefully, thrive, corals need more than light. They need to swallow more than their symbiotic zooxanthellae."




I think that it may be possible that more fish could be feeding the zooxanthellae with ammonia, causing darker colors, thereby masking the real issue, witch is nitrogen limitation

Don't get me wrong, I still thing that a modest fish load, that is well fed is still usefull. That helps to let the corals 'snack' inbetween meals. But the use of a filter sock makes this ineffective IMO.

Anton

[jpierson77]

Anton.... Thanks for the link to the articles very interesting and great info.

[zuzecawi]

Wow! What a discussion!
I too am arguing the importance of nutrients on this one. Far from being a "modern" reefer, I started out this hobby with a undergravel filter and crushed coral...
My most successful sps tank to date is not my big heavily skimmed tank, but my 58 gallon sps-gorgonian reef, under moderate lighting (one lone unsupplemented 250 w 18K XM fired by PFO magnetic ballast) which is run with a DSB in display and refugium, a tiny portion of often changed carbon, and one really crappy barely working protein skimmer. I have NEVER had a protein skimmer that worked on this friggin tank, I hardly get skimmate, and I know my nutrient load is decent, I feed my corals and the only two fish I have in this tank (mandarin and blenny) often, (2x's daily) and my corals, mixed acros and montis, with seriaoptera and poci thrown in, are all way darker and more vibrant on coloration than my other tank. The polyp extension on them is phenomenal, and I credit it wholly to nutrient levels higher than the average modern tank.
On the other hand, I do frequent large water changes, supplement calcium and alk with homemade A & B style mixes, and maintain a close eye on paremeters. My nitrates are detectable but barely, and I don't let them get crazy.
In my opinion/experience, good flow and good nutrition are more important than good lighting.

Just an opinion, no science involved.

[Pomachantus Paru]

I totally agree about nitrogen limitation, and adding fish is a way to enhance the nitrogen level, but let us remember that by overfeeding your fish or overstocking to have a high bioload, you are feeding your corals in two different manners:
1- by the excrement of the fishes, wich is not very rich because most of the nutrients were already taken by thefish.
2- by the leftover food, wich is not much, but fish food is made with leftover fish, algae, and other stuff, that is enriched with vitamins, minerals, and all good things for our fishes.
If you are going to feed the corals in this way, why not feed it directly with plankton, mysis, brine shrimp ect, all enriched.
I ain't saying that having a high bioload is wrong, I have one myself with 16 little guys that aren't so little, but i have a DSB tank and fuge, so the bacterial mass of the tank allow me to have this high quantity of fish, wich I feed once a day with flake food and in the evening i give the some nori, brine shrimp, shrimp, blood worms, etc, changing the components of this meal each day.
And I do feed mine corals every week with an assortment of food, since not much of the fishes food reach my corals, and I do skim normally to balance the amount of poop that the corals and fish produce.

[glassbox-design]

feeding with phyto, brine, mysis etc... do the same thing as over feeding fish. both add to po4 levels. the key is adding N without adding P. This addresses nitrogen limitation without increasing P levels to keep cnp ratios good. we dont know what that ratio should be, but we do know we want to keep p low.

if you have pastel colors and want them to darken look into aminos. it's a "clean" nitrogen source.

eric

[zuzecawi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9098893#post9098893 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
feeding with phyto, brine, mysis etc... do the same thing as over feeding fish. both add to po4 levels.

Hmm... I agree with the aminos to a point as being possibly helpful, but I also think... isn't this what water changes are for?

I mean... you can feed heavily, or feed lightly, but either way, if you don't do water changes frequently or at least regularly, your livestock is going to suffer. Not just from nutrient and DOC or DMC overload, but also from depletion. We're really not sure what all chemicals/minerals actually are actively used by corals, and some of the ones we know, we don't understand. Water changes are an invaluable way of not only exporting nutrients, but importing possibly vital chemicals/minerals/compounds of various sorts.

Maybe I'm talking out my butt here, however, I do think that we can balance between having a nutrient poor but sustenance rich aquaria by proper husbandry vs. the random adding of things... not that I don't do my fair share of random adding.

There is so much more that we don't know about corals than what we do know... and what I know of what we know is pathetically small!!! Heh... that is what makes discussions like this fun.

[glassbox-design]

Hmm... I agree with the aminos to a point as being possibly helpful, but I also think... isn't this what water changes are for?

I mean... you can feed heavily, or feed lightly, but either way, if you don't do water changes frequently or at least regularly, your livestock is going to suffer. Not just from nutrient and DOC or DMC overload, but also from depletion. We're really not sure what all chemicals/minerals actually are actively used by corals, and some of the ones we know, we don't understand. Water changes are an invaluable way of not only exporting nutrients, but importing possibly vital chemicals/minerals/compounds of various sorts.

Maybe I'm talking out my butt here, however, I do think that we can balance between having a nutrient poor but sustenance rich aquaria by proper husbandry vs. the random adding of things... not that I don't do my fair share of random adding.

There is so much more that we don't know about corals than what we do know... and what I know of what we know is pathetically small!!! Heh... that is what makes discussions like this fun.

I suppose it depends on on your description of low nutrient. for sps keepers like myself who are after very intense colors and rapid growth the increase in po4 is a big thing to overcome. FWIW, I do weekly 25% WC.

you are correct about the minerals, but what about the food sources of corals. Do SPS corals directly eat phyto, brine, and mysis? Phyto, to some extent...but the last two no. We do know that SPS directly absorb aminos. we also know they help feed some bacs that help maintain low nutrient enviornments.

Our tanks are carbon and nitrogen limited. Why add N and P, when you can just add N? I have a hard time answering questions like these without being too nerdy and start usually start on wild tangents about the mysteries of our hobby :)

Leonardo, where are you? You always handle these questions so well ;)

zuze what do you mean by substance..organic, inorganic, chemical, mineral...?

eric

[jpierson77]

FLINT------ what aminos do you dose?

How about culturing zooplankton and feeding that?

[glassbox-design]

aspartic acid, glutamin, arginine and some other goodies :). I've been using the pappone recipe for about a week now with improved results as well.

I do not care to add zoo or phyto plankton. Bacs from C dosing provides enough food to filter feeders. I really just care about the SPS :)

[jpierson77]

ah you have been following the italian thread. I guess ill throw my pappone in the blender until it gets the particle size to where i think it should be. Do you think the aminos are worth it?

[NewSchool04]

Let's see a pic of the tank Eric!

[glassbox-design]

Yes, I think I will always dose AA's. I see great improvement and growth from AA's alone. Dont add GNC or other human brand aminos. They are loaded with fillers, not to mention they are used on machinery that process other things...please go out and buy some that are meant for our animals. Fauna Marins ingredients look like a good pick, but I do not have any experience with them.

eric

[jpierson77]

i second a pic thanks for the post

[glassbox-design]

my little tank is nothing to show off...yet! lots of experimentation has taken its toll...but now things are dialed in and I am planning an upgrade.

here's a pic of a new addition...it has since darkened up and already turning a little pink/purple. Notice the darkness of the bottom of the pocci. since using pappone it has gotten much fuller and darker.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/jettachez/DSCF1119.jpg

eric

[NewSchool04]

Is that an turaki? What about a full tank shot?!

[glassbox-design]

it's a.carolinana

Pat you can see a full tank shot if you ever stop by :) I am waiting to post any full tank pics. doing some sequence photos etc. Partly in response to my old thread.

eric

[NewSchool04]

I'm a big fan of the A. carolinana! I'll PM you next time I'm heading south and have some free time!

[Pomachantus Paru]

Eric, I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about general corals, because I know that mysis and bryne are way too big for sps, but I won't get mad. Nice point on the po4, wich I was forgetting, but I only had a po4 problem in the very beginning of the tank, but thanks for the heads up.
About the pappone recipe, would you mind posting it here, because the search system is full and I can't seem to find it
Thanks in advance

[Leonardo_]

Leonardo, where are you? You always handle these questions so well ;)

Hey Eric!

I posted this somewhere before, but it makes sense in this thread also:

"After reading a lot about the "Italian Method" (Blu Coral) I think I will start to try this, my way of course. I will explain what I will do:

I want to control the C:N:P ratio in the tank. This is the ratio between Carbon:Nitrogen:Phosphate.
In almost every tank the P is much to high, comparing to the other two.

What will I do and why?

Corals absorb chemicals and feed on small particles to forefill their need for Carbon, Nitrogen and Phosphates.
In aquariums there is way too much Phosphate, compared to Nitrogen and Carbon.
If you add blender mush etc. you provide Nitrogen, some Carbon and Phosphates. So it is hard to change that C:N:P ratio that way.

I want to add Nitrogen in the form of Amino Acids.
I want to add Carbon in the form of Fructose.
I DON'T want to add any Phosphates. (exept for the fish-food)

Result:

When Carbon isn't limited anymore, bacteria will feed on Carbon and also use Phosphates. Phosphate-levels will drop that way. Carbon also support anaerobic bacteria, so the nitrate level will also drop. The increased bacteria in the water will feed the SPS. The rest is skimmed off fast.
Amino Acids will also support bacteria(indirectly feeding SPS), and also feed the SPS directly.

This way, I want to create a nutrient low environment, with plenty of food available for the corals.

The Bare-Bottom method will help me to remove the bacteria (phosphates) and the (unused) Amino Acids fast, and I will still be in control that way."

---------------------

Because of my too sterile tank, my corals were starving because of the lack of food. This mean dissolved nutrients, and food in particles. I came up with the theory above because of that situation.

At this moment I made a slight change in feeding; I do feed Pappone now (adding small amounts of P). I do this because I think it's good to provide some non-dissolved (particle) food, directly to the coral polyps. Pappone also contains a Carbon-source. (sugar/fructose)
The "dissolved feeding" is still done by Amino Acids.

I skim very heavy, and do a 25% WC weekly. I use carbon and GFO also.

My method is not scientifically, I just developed it by closely monitoring my corals, and make small ajustments at a time. Nothing good happens fast!

Leonardo

[glassbox-design]

Leonardo-There it is! I knew you had a post that explained it clearly without being too "nerdy". Please, post some pictures, your tank is gorgeous. How are the colors and growth coming with pappone and AA's?

eric

[Leonardo_]

The colours were washed out before I was using this method. This was my own fault. I was so afraid of nitrates and phosphates, that I was running my tank almost "sterile". Even coraline algae wouldn't grow. (no, not even in less light areas)
The corals were pale, didn't grow and had poor PE. Some even STN after a while. (all the params were good, and no big KH changes or something)

After losing a big colony, I slowly began to feed more and more to my fish. I also added some fish. (had only 2 in a 92 gallon) But I continued with strong wet skimming, BB and large WC.

Things went better, but it still was not perfect. Then the Italian thread started, and with that the AA discussion began. That was the moment I started to feed like I described above.

Colours are much better now, some still pastel. Growth is good now. Stags grow almost 1" a month. Maybe more in the future. My LPS like it also, Favia is forming new polyps fast.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/leonardosreef/FTS24-01-2.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/leonardosreef/sideview.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/leonardosreef/HPIM3623.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q309/leonardosreef/HPIM3637.jpg

Leonardo

[zuzecawi]

While sps may not eat mysis and brine in their full grown size, they certainly do eat phytoplankton and larval crustaceans on the micro zooplankton side of the house. They also eat copepods, as a matter of fact, there is a pretty cool shot on the BBC series The Blue Planet (Coral Seas show I believe) of an acro eating copepods.
What I meant by nutrient poor but sustenance rich, was an environment which provides the food which corals naturally eat, such as live phytoplankton and live copepods, but which is not overwhelmed with excess nutrients in the form of phosphate and nitrates.
I think inherent to this arguement is what exactly each reef keeper is seeking. I tend to follow Eric Bornemans school of thought, that rapid growth is not necessarily a sign of health, and I prefer my corals to have robust growth and strong coloration vs incredible growth. To me, I'd rather see good thick skeletons and sweet polyp extension, than gain an inch a month. Which is why I tend to keep reef like I do. The way I look at it, feeding amino acids and not live phyto and microzooplankton is much like drinking Ultra Slim Fast instead of beer and steak... it'll save some pounds and it might be healthy, but it just isn't as satisfying!
I do think that most of the phyto-based foods out there are junk, and the same with the invert foods. I can see where you would have such a negative image of the importance of phyto if all you ever used was the stuff in a bottle... I strongly suggest culturing it yourself. The culturing of rotifers is a current project of mine, so far, I haven't seen anything bad happen of it, although it hasn't been going on long enough to see if anything good is up either!!!
Either case, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and more ways than a thousand to grow a reef!!! So far, my way seems to work for what I want to accomplish, and I'm checking out everybody else's way to see what I can learn. If there's one thing that stands out most about reefkeeping, other than the price tag, it's how much there is to learn.

And Leonardo... what a gorgeous tank! I look forward to mine reaching that point! All my corals started as frags about quarter sized, a lot of them were throw aways from other reefers for brown color, tissue recession, etc. Yours though, wow!!! Something to be said for Ultra Slim Fast in the right combo!


http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k91/zuzecawi/jan07topdown-1.jpg

[Leonardo_]

Thanks, your tank is very nice too, very nice caps! Reached this size with frags, my compliments.

Don't understand me wrong, I also think growth is not everything. I also want full colony's and thick branches.
But for me growth is a good indication, because I had no growth before. I think I'm on the right track - my staghorns are forming many new branches. (my tank almost only consists Staghorns)

Live Zooplankton can provide a very good foodsource, but only if they are gut-loaded with HUFA's, proteins, fytoplankton etc. Otherwise the nutritional value is limited.

I think pappone forms a good substitute. It provides protein, HUFA's and phytoplankton for sure. Also it is a method that shown to be beneficial for quite a time.

What works better? I don't know. I don't think that we have to focus on that. "SPS" need more then light, we all share that thought. :)

Leonardo

[Philwd]

I agree with both the amino acids and small plankton for feeding SPS. When I started using Seachem's product early last year my colors deepened and my growth exploded. My stags got real thick branches.

My LFS started carrying a "reef stew". Basically it is the green water a local clownfish breeder uses for his fry. It's full of rotifers, copepods, phyto. I try to get some every week. My corals get a very strong feeding response(as well as my young wrasses). On the off weeks the stew is sold out I use DT's oyster eggs.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9104524#post9104524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zuzecawi
While sps may not eat mysis and brine in their full grown size, they certainly do eat phytoplankton and larval crustaceans on the micro zooplankton side of the house.
I always understood that Acropora consumed little to zero of Phytoplankton [plant-based]. Has the common belief changed regarding this?

As far as brine/mysis - putting through a blender/crushing/chopping should make it just fine sized for corals. If it's just particle size, than any DIY fish food [Pappone or not] should provide it [most are blended].

[mike89t]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9105825#post9105825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philwd
I agree with both the amino acids and small plankton for feeding SPS. When I started using Seachem's product early last year my colors deepened and my growth exploded. My stags got real thick branches.

My LFS started carrying a "reef stew". Basically it is the green water a local clownfish breeder uses for his fry. It's full of rotifers, copepods, phyto. I try to get some every week. My corals get a very strong feeding response(as well as my young wrasses). On the off weeks the stew is sold out I use DT's oyster eggs.

Phil,

Do you get the amino acids locally or On-Line?

Thanks,

Mike

[Philwd]

Mike,
Both. Usually on-line but if I don't have a fair sized order I'll just go to ATR. Only a few $ more. And I pick up the reef stew at the same time. :D

[zuzecawi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9105889#post9105889 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
I always understood that Acropora consumed little to zero of Phytoplankton [plant-based]. Has the common belief changed regarding this?


In a few recent books now, notably those by Paletta, Borneman, and Calfo, it is stated that phytoplankton probably makes up a bigger portion of coral nutrition than previously thought. Is it a law? Nope. Just a speculation based on coral growth with introduction of phyto vs. coral growth without. I think Anthony Calfo went into it the most in his book about coral aquaculture (titles are evading me here). Nilsen covered it as well in Reef Secrets unless I'm mistaken (I could be, wouldn't be the first time I confused books). Also, it is covered in biology texts, and I believe it's mentioned as well on the BBC Coral Seas video. Not that I believe everything I see on TV...
unless it's about Elvis. In the Bahamas. On the Jenny Craig diet. Then it MUST be true!

[MiddletonMark]

I was just referring to previous Borneman articles [among others] where he pretty emphatically states that Acropora doesn't appear to eat any significant phyto.

Calfo doesn't have the backround to make many of the claims he does, nor does he often provide sources for his info ... so IMO, I disregard his claims.

[Horace]

Where is the thread that discusses how to make your own aminos? Right now I am spending big $$ on the Zeovit Aminos and definitely would prefer to make my own if that was a cheap alternative.

[starrd27]

Can someone please post links to the "Italian Method" and "Pappone" described above?

[prance1520]

Amazing thread. I've gotta keep up on this one. What a hot topic on these boards lately. I'll throw my experience out there.

100g, use the Ultralith system, feed cyclopeze (quite a bit) 3x a week, feed my 6 fish daily (twice a day on the weekends), and run 6x54w Tek T5. My orange cap and green slimer are growing great, and are starting to look pastel. Very healthy and happy, but they are changing color. My tenius on the other hand, has had its blue tips become a much richer blue, almost a purple. So not all of my colors are going towards pastel, but some are.

I'm waiting till I upgrade my skimmer so that I can begin feeding hopefully 2xplanton-size food and 1xfish food daily. I think the more corals get the chance to eat, the better. I'd love to try Middletown Mark's ideas of blendering some things, but my skimmer is a bit behind handling that yet.

PS. I've also heard SPS will not eat phyto or any plant-like foods either.

[stony_corals]

SPS don't eat phyto, Sorokin did a lot of work in this area to determine what makes up the energy budgets of many corals and phyto wasn't consumed by 'sps' species. Regardless of what is said in the hobby, science has proven otherwise.

I am interested in the pappone as well. Leonardo, I would question the assumption that our corals are Carbon starved as this is the main product that is translocated from the zoox to their host coral. I also believe that our tanks are N starved, hence fish poo being one (of many potential) solutions of providing the source of N. To play devils advocate though, in the third Sprung/Delbeek book where Delbeek provides nutrients levels for an experimental tank employing Jaubert style plenum (with big skimmer too). The DON levels are far above NSW. Any thoughts?

[DaddyJax]

When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void? My understanding was quite the opposite. It is a broken down and separated carbon and protein source that turned into P04 only after it broke down in the sand or anywhere else it lands and doesn't get consumed. Also I believe that what you put in the fish is going to come out. Pellets and flake are things that I never use. I am confident that most if not all of them are fillers and crap. I like the idea of puree mush and using good fresh seafood. I also agree that corals can and do consume zooplankton and pods, but they also consume detritus as well. Pods are a reefers best friend and we will try to produce as many as possible so that they keep our systems clean. This is all a big cycle.

[speedstar]

please post or link to the pappone reciepe. I can't get the search function to work. TIA

[speedstar]

From page 23 of the italian thread. I found this, hopefully it is current.

“Pappone” Recipe – Italian Coral Food (Updated 12/20/2006)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

[glassbox-design]

When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void?

it never did. we are trying to supplement this. one way of looking at it is "overstocking" our tanks without fish...without having to worry about the breakdown into P.

Leonardo, I had a very simmilar approach. I was very prudent in feedings and was overly concerned with my N and P that colors were extremely light and I experienced STN problems too. I knew I was screwing up when I could no longer get my a. nana to grow, not to mention caused it to lose its purple tips.

Since dosing my AA's and feeding pappone it has started growing again and has it's vibrant purple tips back :)

Kurt- you could be talking about my old thread. There isnt much out there that is "safe". Most aminos have lots of fillers such as yeast and stearates. If you can buy some through a medical/lab company thats your best bet...but hard to track down.

eric

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9108825#post9108825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speedstar
From page 23 of the italian thread. I found this, hopefully it is current.

“Pappone” Recipe – Italian Coral Food (Updated 12/20/2006)

Materials:
5 Oysters
5 Mussels
5 Clams
5 Shrimp (NOT cocktail shrimp, the big scampi type w/o the head and the shell)
1 Tablespoon of Sugar
200 mL of RO/DI water
10 g of Red Algae (Palmaria palmata; Bisck uses Julian Sprung's brand)
and/or 10 g of Spirulina, 10 g of Nori (spirulina is what Bisck prefers)

Methods: Make SURE that all ingredients are the freshest possible and DO NOT use frozen foods (unless it is impossible for you). Make sure everything "live" is rinsed and cleaned before putting it into the blender. Put all the ingredients into the blender and blend for 5 min, wait 2 min for it to cool, 5 more min blending, 2 min of waiting again, then finally another 5 min of blending (the pausing is so that the solution doesn't get too hot and "cook" from the heat of the blender/blades). Pour into cube forms (approx 10 mL each). Then freeze it all—you want to minimize how long everything is at room temperature.

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.

*If everything is going well. It is good to wait and see how the tank is doing for awhile before trying this. The whole point here is that you don't want to change anything too fast, because nothing good happens quickly in this hobby. (Another method to grind up amino acid pills in the next batch of food; however Bisck found that it sometimes causes diatom outbreaks in his tank).

Am I missing something or is this nothing more than fish food? Those ingredients are the same that are found in many common fish foods and certainly dont sound like anything special to me. The idea of adding aminos is adding food w/out adding phosphates. ALL those ingredients will also add lots of phosphate to your tank. It sounds to me that just puree these ingredients will just create one big nutrient bomb....

[DaddyJax]

I was thinking something very similar.

[glassbox-design]

I suggest reading the italian thread. pappone is just a seafood mush blend. it is used at night time sparingly to help nourish the corals. the PE is absolutely incredible. In well maintained tanks, there is no noticeable increase in levels. The next morning my skimmer is full and it skims it right out. These ingredients only add po4 when they break down. by adding a fine mush, there are no large particles to rot and it is absorbed by the animals....the rest quickly filtered out.

this is to temporarily elevate nutrient levels to nourish the corals without having to deal with time bombs. there is nothing special about the ingredients...but together they do work quite well. please read up more about it...

eric

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9108589#post9108589 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void? My understanding was quite the opposite. It is a broken down and separated carbon and protein source that turned into P04 only after it broke down in the sand or anywhere else it lands and doesn't get consumed. Also I believe that what you put in the fish is going to come out. Pellets and flake are things that I never use. I am confident that most if not all of them are fillers and crap. I like the idea of puree mush and using good fresh seafood. I also agree that corals can and do consume zooplankton and pods, but they also consume detritus as well. Pods are a reefers best friend and we will try to produce as many as possible so that they keep our systems clean. This is all a big cycle.

Fish poo is a source of N and most likely P, no C. Corals get that from their zoox.

[glassbox-design]

corals do get C from their zoox but we are talking system or water levels here where C has a larger effect on bacs...which in turn feeds corals. our tanks are C and N limited.

[stony_corals]

So adding sugar to pappone is more for the bacteria cultures rather than the corals?!?

Again, I don't think our tanks are N limited. Delbeek has shown that there are significant amounts of DON relative to NSW levels, even when employing a Jaubert plenum/sand bed.

[glassbox-design]

Yes C dosing is too feed bacs and adjust the cnp.

here is a basic outline...

adjusts cnp > bacs use up C > bacs multiply > eat up no3 and po4 > feed corals.

Very few run plenums, many of those with low nutrient tanks run SSB or BB due to flow. but yes our tanks are N limited as are coral reefs in the ocean...there is organic and inorganic nitrogen.

meso if you read this feel free to add your two cents. you're always terrific at bridging the science-hobby gap. i have a hard time expressing these nerdy things as they are already difficult to understand.

[jpierson77]

I re-blended my pappone to get finer particles but i still get a lot that are about the size of say cyclopeze, is this ok? I did not put in any nori or red algea, is this a bad thing?

[Leonardo_]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9110518#post9110518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
So adding sugar to pappone is more for the bacteria cultures rather than the corals?!?

Again, I don't think our tanks are N limited. Delbeek has shown that there are significant amounts of DON relative to NSW levels, even when employing a Jaubert plenum/sand bed.

Like Eric said, the Carbon source is only there to support the bacteria. This to make sure that you don't elevate P and N levels while feeding this. On the other hand, the bacteria also feed the coral. Adding C can be described as indirect feeding.

With my nitrates and phosphates both 0, using carbon and GFO, I think I have a N poor system. Of course this tests are only indications.

Leonardo

[glassbox-design]

jpierson-i dont think it will be the end of the world...but not the best either. try it out first and then modify it if you see fit.

Just an observation-

2 feedings ago I used Rods Food for Pappone and saw a pretty simmilar result. Last night I mixed a little bit of Rods with Pappone and the PE was the best I've seen yet.

eric

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9112202#post9112202 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leonardo's Reef
Like Eric said, the Carbon source is only there to support the bacteria. This to make sure that you don't elevate P and N levels while feeding this. On the other hand, the bacteria also feed the coral. Adding C can be described as indirect feeding.

With my nitrates and phosphates both 0, using carbon and GFO, I think I have a N poor system. Of course this tests are only indications.

Leonardo

But NH3, NH4, NO2, NO3 aren't the only forms of N in our tanks... Those are inorganic only, again, defering tto Delbeeks lab tested showed a system at the waikiki that had high levels of DON (dissolved organic nitrogen) relative to NSW, but below NSW levels of many inorganic N sources (NO3 was one of them).

Eric, all systems can maintain nutrient poor systems, whether Jaubert plenum, DSB, BB, etc. That wouldn't be a factor, in fact the surface area of a DSB/Jaubert plenum would, hypothetically, be better for a bacteria dependent system: more surface area to culture bacteria.

[glassbox-design]

stony-

I'm sure there are tanks out there that arent nitrogen limited but they also probably have elevated levels of po4. nitrogen limitation is a concern in low nutrient tanks that many sps keepers are after.

there are numerous studies that clearly state many coral reefs are nitrogen limited. i dont have the time to post links to the article but I am sure a simple google or "nitrogen limitation reef" will pull up studies backing up what I am saying. Please read the articles posted by meso on the other forum so you can get an understanding of what we are talking about here...i dont know about know what delbeek posted but I think we are talking about 2 different creatures here.

fwiw, plenums would not be much better to foster bac growth as we are talking bacterioplankton in the water column. Past a couple inches it becomes anerobic and is useless to the bacs we are after to eat nutrients.

hth,

eric

[rleechb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9108825#post9108825 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speedstar

Procedure: One hour prior to turning off your lights, you have the option of adding Amino acids to the tank*. (For example, 11pm Halides off, add AA’s, 12am, actinics off, then add pappone). Take off the cup of your skimmer, but leave the skimmer running (so you don’t have a massive drop in O2 levels overnight). After the lights are off, start with only a ¼ of a cube per WEEK for every 400 L of tank water (approx 100 gallons). Be sure to measure NO3 and PO4 the next morning so that these parameters don't spike after feeding. You can reduce the amount fed if you are having nutrient problems. Also don’t forget to put the skimmer cup back on the next morning before the lights go back on.



Is there any particular reason that this method has to be done at night? Would feeding during the day reduce its effectiveness?

[bureau13]

So for those of you using this pappone mush, how often do you feed it? I presume this is in addition to whatever you feed your fish.

Looking at the ingredients, it doesn't really seem much different than if I put some Megamarine or Ocean Nutrition Forumula cubes in a blender and added some sugar for the carbon source. Are these "prepackaged" frozen foods inherently less nutritious for some reason?

jds

[glassbox-design]

lets try and keep this thread on topic...pastel vs. dark colors. for specific questions about the pappone read up and post on the italian thread.

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9113137#post9113137 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
stony-

I'm sure there are tanks out there that arent nitrogen limited but they also probably have elevated levels of po4. nitrogen limitation is a concern in low nutrient tanks that many sps keepers are after.

there are numerous studies that clearly state many coral reefs are nitrogen limited. i dont have the time to post links to the article but I am sure a simple google or "nitrogen limitation reef" will pull up studies backing up what I am saying. Please read the articles posted by meso on the other forum so you can get an understanding of what we are talking about here...i dont know about know what delbeek posted but I think we are talking about 2 different creatures here.

fwiw, plenums would not be much better to foster bac growth as we are talking bacterioplankton in the water column. Past a couple inches it becomes anerobic and is useless to the bacs we are after to eat nutrients.

hth,

eric

eric, yeah, I'm not saying that coral reefs aren't nitrogen limited. what I'm saying is that it's not accurate to say that our tanks are nitrogen limited. We don't have test kits that measure DON (or any other organics such as organic PO4s). The only data I've seen for reef tanks was published by Delbeek for one of the waikiki aquariums. This data clearly showed that if you take into account DON, that our tanks are NOT N limited. While they may be NH3, NH4, NO2, and NO3 limited.

As far as plenums/DSBs being a better (relative) for fostering bac growth, this is the reason that the probiotic approaches such as ZEO, Ultralithe, Prodibio either have rocks or recommend sand beds... These systems add bacteria cultures and a C source to grow the cultures which ultimately become food for corals as well as consumers of nutrients such as NO3 and PO4. I'd say that this is a probiotic approach as well....

[newrossman]

Hi,

Not sure if this helps but in a very good vid on reefvideos, he recorded a presentation of some guy (sorry no name) who stated that even when he was with the real collectors in fiji he was amazed that the same coral from same area and dive could be completly different in colour!.,
All im saying is that I think it's a mix of current/light/feeding/temp and am waiting for the research to find out which does what when for how long.
Love this post but I think we will end up with 'I did the exact same thing in my tank and the colour did'nt change!' that because all our tanks are different even 2 exactly same tanks will be different. I guess it's the joy and curse of this hobbie/passion

Ande

[REEF-DADDY]

You know whats funny? 2-3 years ago the "thing to do" was a fishless sps tank. Now we are looking for ways to dump more food in our tanks. :D

[prance1520]

You know whats funny? 2-3 years ago the "thing to do" was a fishless sps tank. Now we are looking for ways to dump more food in our tanks.

Such is the cycle of reefkeeping....

[glassbox-design]

Stony- It is very accurate to say that many systems such as mine are N limited. All tanks certainly arent limited, but we are in the SPS forum arent we? Most tanks that keep predominately SPS have very good means of export and area attempting to keep a low nutrient system. If you have a great tank with low nutrients and you're not getting as much growth as you think you should be getting...odds are you are nitrogen limited.

How old is this Delbek piece? From the advancement in this hobby having too low of nutrients has only been a recent problem. We didnt have the knowledge or equipment we do now 5 years ago.

Bacteria based systems such as zeo use zeolith based rocks to foster bacteria growth to then release it into the water so that it can be eaten and or skimmer out...this is why you must shake or stir the rocks on a regular basis. Despite having simmilarities prodibio is not at the same level as zeo or ultralith...apples to oranges.



For those of you doubting the effects of amino acids...

"Free amino acids exhibit anthozoan "host factor" activity: they induce the release of photosynthate from symbiotic dinoflagellates in vitro.
R D Gates, O Hoegh-Guldberg, M J McFall-Ngai, K Y Bil, L Muscatine
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1995 Aug 1;92:7430-4

Reef-building corals and other tropical anthozoans harbor endosymbiotic dinoflagellates. It is now recognized that the dinoflagellates are fundamental to the biology of their hosts, and their carbon and nitrogen metabolisms are linked in important ways. Unlike free living species, growth of symbiotic dinoflagellates is unbalanced and a substantial fraction of the carbon fixed daily by symbiont photosynthesis is released and used by the host for respiration and growth. Release of fixed carbon as low molecular weight compounds by freshly isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates is evoked by a factor (i.e., a chemical agent) present in a ho-mo-genate of host tissue. We have identified this "host factor" in the Hawaiian coral Pocillopora damicornis as a set of free amino acids. Synthetic amino acid mixtures, based on the measured free amino acid pools of P. damicornis tissues, not only elicit the selective release of 14C-labeled photosynthetic products from isolated symbiotic dinoflagellates but also enhance total 14CO2 fixation.

Source
http://hoegh-guldberg.lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:11607567"



Pappone and AA's provide N with a little bit of C. This enables the corals to grow without be hindered. Think Liebigs Law of the minimum... "growth is controlled not by the total of resources available, but by the scarcest resource."

wow thats long...:eek2:

Eric

[Leonardo_]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9113587#post9113587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
eric, yeah, I'm not saying that coral reefs aren't nitrogen limited. what I'm saying is that it's not accurate to say that our tanks are nitrogen limited. We don't have test kits that measure DON (or any other organics such as organic PO4s). The only data I've seen for reef tanks was published by Delbeek for one of the waikiki aquariums. This data clearly showed that if you take into account DON, that our tanks are NOT N limited. While they may be NH3, NH4, NO2, and NO3 limited.

As far as plenums/DSBs being a better (relative) for fostering bac growth, this is the reason that the probiotic approaches such as ZEO, Ultralithe, Prodibio either have rocks or recommend sand beds... These systems add bacteria cultures and a C source to grow the cultures which ultimately become food for corals as well as consumers of nutrients such as NO3 and PO4. I'd say that this is a probiotic approach as well....

I think an N limited tank can be possible if you (over)skim wet, have a BB tank, and use GAC (binds organic compounds). This together with the addition of C can create an overall limitation of N.

Leonardo

[stony_corals]

Eric, Delbeeks info is new. It's in the latest Reef Aquarium, again, it's a semi-open system with a strong downdraft on it, as well as a plenum. Have you tested your tank for DON? The only way to accurately say that is if you had your tank water sample sent to a lab, and if so, I'd be really interested in where you sent it. There are no test kits on the market for DON, and therefore this important source of N is an unknown unless the water was taken out. Again, we can't be saying that our tanks our N limited if there are high levels of DON.

[Leonardo_]

There is a Salifert testkit that tests Organics. I don't know if that test is specific enough (to measure DON), but I will test my water soon.

Leonardo

[stony_corals]

I wonder how accurate it is... interesting to hear though....

[glassbox-design]

I do not know the N levels of my system, just as I dont know the C levels. we also dont what cnp ratio we are shooting for. A lack of numbers is a serious problem, as is the reliability of the numbers we do have.

I do know that since adding specific nitrogen compounds I have an increase in growth and color. When adding pappone in addition I got even better growth. Take that for what its worth. After researching the topic thoroughly, knowing my system and having these results i feel as if my problem was nitrogen limitation. perhaps you see something else.

I do not have delbeeks book or know the specifics about that system you are talking about. I feel a major part of pastel colors is nitrogen limitation. If you feel differently, good for you. We are all entitled to our ideas. I suggest reading some literature on the subject besides delbeeks book. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions--it's a huge part of this hobby and what makes it fun!

eric

[stony_corals]

I hear what you are saying... I'm not trying to be an *** :). I believe that pappone and other probiotic approaches are the future of the hobby (at least those of us that are into sps). But imho, it'd be great to understand whats really happening, but unfortunately, the accuracy of test kits do not allow us to know what's going on. There is hope, like the deltec/merck PO4 kit. I'm interested in hearing what Leonardo's dissolved organics test kit shows.

I could be totally wrong about DON, but it's the only data points that I've seen.

[Leonardo_]

Stony_corals, you're absolutely right. It's good to know what's really happening.
I will ask Salifert (Habib) for more information of the Organics-test. I hope to take a test with it very soon.

Leonardo

[Vanquish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9115144#post9115144 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leonardo's Reef
Stony_corals, you're absolutely right. It's good to know what's really happening.
I will ask Salifert (Habib) for more information of the Organics-test. I hope to take a test with it very soon.

Leonardo

Hi Leonardo,

Im following this thread with great interest, please share your findings on the Salifert Organics testkit :) thanks!!

[stony_corals]

I checked the salifert website and there isn't a description as to what the organic test kit tests for.

[glassbox-design]

Stony, I just didnt want to start a big debate...people take things too personal here. :)

Check this info out... read the last sentence.

F. P. Wilkerson1, 2 and R. K. Trench1

(1) Department of Biological Sciences and Marine Science Institute, University of California at Santa Barbara, 93106 Santa Barbara, California, USA
(2) Present address: Allan Hancock Foundation, University of Southern California, University Park, 90089 Los Angeles, California, USA

Accepted: 18 July 1986

Communicated by R.S. Carney, Baton Rouge
Abstract Dissolved inorganic nitrogen flux was studied in the giant clam Tridacna gigas and the corals Acropora sp. and Tubastrea micrantha from the tropical reefs of Belau, Micronesia in 1983. T. micrantha, a nonsymbiotic coral, excreted ammonium. However, Tridacna gigas and Acropora sp., which contain symbiotic dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) were able to take up both ammonium and nitrate. The requirement for a previous light exposure to sustain uptake by T. gigas is reported. The uptake kinetics of these symbioses are described and include the capacity of the zooxanthellae for surge uptake when given nutrient spikes.

My thinking for improved growth rates is...the pappone being the nutrient spikes allows the corals to "surge uptake" of parts of the pappone and the AA's...it also seems a short spell of raised trates may not be a bad thing...?

Eric

[stony_corals]

Who takes things personally :)?!? No worries, we can learn from discussion. After all the threads can't all be 'which bulbs are the best?'

I think I've seen that one before. Not having used the pappone before, I'd say that dosing pappone would be a better 'nutrient spike' than the sparce feeding that many aquarists provide.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9114419#post9114419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
I do not have delbeeks book or know the specifics about that system you are talking about.
FWIW, Delbeek is one of the pioneers of this hobby + stony coral keeping in general.

[jamesdawson]

Perhaps this will become standard reefkeeping equipment:lol:

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.laobserved.com/images/bassomatic.

[rigleautomotive]

i am not sure if this was mentioned but i found pastel colors to be in direct relation with high alk,11 or 12.same tank with lower alk 8.5 to 9.5 much darker and more color.

[stony_corals]

That is an interesting observation... any speculations as to why?

[rigleautomotive]

not sure but i brought it up a few months ago when i noticed my corals looked better when my cal reactor stopped working and my alk fell to 8.the needle valve plugged and i did not catch it right off.noticed my sps corals started to color up more each day .i toyed with the idea a bit until i finally removed the reactor and went back to my old method which is kalk and two part.ph is closer to natural sea water now and corals look better IMO.i now keep the alk at 8.5 to 9.5 AND CAL AT 425 TO 450,MG 1300 AS OPPOSED TO 10 TO 12 ALK cal 380 to 400 MG 1200 with reactor running.

[MiddletonMark]

Odd thing is that these pastel colors are often associated with Zeo + methods where Alk is kept intentionally quite low [often 7 dKh].
So while high Alk might be a cause, low alk + other stuff also can cause a very similar phenomenon.

[rigleautomotive]

it may be a negative symptom to alk stress.people may percieve it as health cause the colors please them.wheather the coral is actually healthier is another question

[MiddletonMark]

In most cases, I very much agree with your assessment.

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9116308#post9116308 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rigleautomotive
it may be a negative symptom to alk stress.people may percieve it as health cause the colors please them.wheather the coral is actually healthier is another question

I guess that is the real question isnt it! So often people say the corals may or may not be healthy. So what are we to base health on if not color, PE, growth? I know I have seen corals of all levels of these and do fine. Ive seen plenty of corals with poor PE and yet still grow quite well. Ive also seen plenty of corals look brown and grow well. Ive seen many corals that dont grow much at all yet have great color and PE. Its really pretty much impossible to determine coral health in this hobby it seems lol.

[glassbox-design]

FWIW, Delbeek is one of the pioneers of this hobby + stony coral keeping in general

;) I am well aware of who Charles is.

I have experimented with alk and ca and didnt see *much* change in color...more so in growth and PE. There was no uniform shift when altering alk...but certain corals were effected differently.

eric

[jamesdawson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9115980#post9115980 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jamesdawson
Perhaps this will become standard reefkeeping equipment:lol:

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.laobserved.com/images/bassomatic.

Try that again.

]

Jameshttp://www.laobserved.com/images/bassomatic.jpg

James

[jpierson77]

I really appreciate all the info that has been posted here! I will add my alk sits right around 9 very consistantly. This is what frustrates me all my parameters seem to be right where most people run. Here is one thing I am doing going try this week. I just orederd an Ro/di. I live just below the Rockies and my towns water is the first out of the river. For the most part everyone here runs tap water. But im going to try ro/di water maybe this will help ill keep everyone posted.
One last thing that is somewhat obscure to me and one area I feel might vary greatly from most great sps tanks. I use a deep six hydrometer when Im mixing up my water. I have been told that these can be WAY off. Could it be possible that my salinity is WAY off and causing my pastel colors?

[rigleautomotive]

even refracts are off so i guess if you keep salinity on the low or high side of normal range and your hydrometer is off by a bit it can take you out of range.i dont have first hand info on that but imo it can effect tha way a coral colors up.i think rodi is the first equiptment any serious reefer should buy so unless you are testing tap water and it is less than 2 TDS i would get one right away.

[jpierson77]

I agree that I should have done the ro/di a while ago, however the water around here is very clean. But it will arrive to day and the tank will begin getting it as top off tonight, and the first water change with it this weekend.

I would still like to hear some thoughts on salinity. My water reads 1.24 on my deep six.

[Aqua Keepers]

I bet your rocks are loaded with phosphate from useing tap.

Nothing to say about your salinity besides get a refracto.

[rigleautomotive]

hydrometers are .003 off at a minium imo and it can be up or down from actual value.i agree with pito the phosphates will hang around in sand and rock and eventually be used when required by nusiance algae.my advice is get a TDS meter,they are cheap,test tap and rodi.rodi should be less than 2 tds and good working system has 0 tds.

[Aqua Keepers]

Am I wrong in saying that the average phosphate test kit does'nt read as low as we need them? "I think" that by the time these kits pick up phosphate you're already in trouble.

[JB NY]

Getting into the discussion a little late.

IME and from observing many, many tanks. I've always broken it down to two things.

Light and nutrients.

High light, normal level of nutrients. Dark coloration.

High light, very low nutrients more towards the pastel colors.

Really I think that it comes down to that. If you remember back years ago when many people still had to have 400 Watt MH to get any real color out of their corals. Almost all their colors where that deep dark coloration some people strive for. Mostly this was from not as efficient skimmers and water movement equipment that we have now.

In the past, whenever I used to get corals from another tank that were very deep and rich I used to start them in the lowest light levels of my tank or else they would bleach. Most times the coral came from a tank with 400 watt MH and was near the middle or top. It would still bleach in my tank. And when I gave my corals to people they would, most times, darken up in their tanks.

I still think the easiest and best test for organics in your tank is just to pay attention to how long you can go in between cleaning the glass. You should easily be able to go 5-7 days in a low nutrient tank. BB or DSB.

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9122586#post9122586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
Am I wrong in saying that the average phosphate test kit does'nt read as low as we need them? "I think" that by the time these kits pick up phosphate you're already in trouble.

True, true. .2 ppm of PO4 is HIGH, yet unless you go with a deltec, or hanna, other test kits will make it seem like you're at 0PPM since that seem to be their low end. I've not used Hanna, but periodically use the deltec/merck and before 0PPM, the next lowest reading is .024, or nearly 10x lower than the others.

[rigleautomotive]

i think weather the nutrients are in solution and able to be detected are also other variations of why test kits read zero but there is still enough to create algae bloom or color variations in coral

[stony_corals]

That's also part of the problem, PO4 test kits do not include organic PO4s, only inorganic.

[rigleautomotive]

bingo

[Vanquish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9122638#post9122638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
Getting into the discussion a little late.

IME and from observing many, many tanks. I've always broken it down to two things.

Light and nutrients.

High light, normal level of nutrients. Dark coloration.

High light, very low nutrients more towards the pastel colors.

Really I think that it comes down to that. If you remember back years ago when many people still had to have 400 Watt MH to get any real color out of their corals. Almost all their colors where that deep dark coloration some people strive for. Mostly this was from not as efficient skimmers and water movement equipment that we have now.

In the past, whenever I used to get corals from another tank that were very deep and rich I used to start them in the lowest light levels of my tank or else they would bleach. Most times the coral came from a tank with 400 watt MH and was near the middle or top. It would still bleach in my tank. And when I gave my corals to people they would, most times, darken up in their tanks.

I still think the easiest and best test for organics in your tank is just to pay attention to how long you can go in between cleaning the glass. You should easily be able to go 5-7 days in a low nutrient tank. BB or DSB.

I get a daily patch or two of light algae growth on my glass everyday, it doesn't cover the entire glass but maybe about 10-15%, would you consider that high in nutrients?

Just wanna get an opinion here... I feed about 3-5 small pinches of pellets and 4 cubes of mysis shrimps daily to my fish... :)

[rigleautomotive]

other things can cause that in my opinion like sunlight temp,ect so that alone is not a good indicator

[MiddletonMark]

But without the nutrients for it, algae cannot grow.

If he's getting algae, it's got nutrient. How much, I'll defer to Joe.

[kirstenk]

Vanquish, you have a lovely tank. Whatever you are doing, keep it up. :D

[JB NY]

You can have a lovely tank with nutrients, in most cases you need a certain amount for everything to grow and do well.

But it depends on where the algae is forming. I find that in patches of the glass that are getting hit hard with really strong flow, algae tends to grow there first.

But in general, If you start seeing algae growing on the glass within a day or two, I would consider that your nutrients are a little higher than they should be. Normally the glass develops patches where you notice it first and then over a day or two you start to notice it on the rest of the glass.

[antonsemrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9125132#post9125132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
That's also part of the problem, PO4 test kits do not include organic PO4s, only inorganic.

Do organic p04's inhibit growth? Before they break down into inorganic that is.

[stony_corals]

Why wouldn't they? They are phosphates none the less.

[zuzecawi]

Wow, what a load of info. Thank you all for clearing up my miconceptions about phyto and sps, now you've got me wondering if the gorgonians are truly eating it as well, or if it's just benefiting my rotifer cultures!!! Either way, I don't believe I'll stop culturing it, as I said before, I'm not sure what works, but I'm real sure that what I'm doing now works great!!!
So much to learn, and it always amazes me how salt water hobbyists are so proactive about educating themselves. It is truly a step above what's expected of the usual pet owner. I'm out of town right now and this discussion is leaping ahead, so I'll try to read more carefully through all the thread when I get back home. Cheers and keep rolling the info in!

[faddn1]

So what are the name brands of amino acids you people are using. Ive seen the zeo amino acids, anybody here use them?

[250G]

Exactly my thoughts!

The algae on the glass correlation is interesting. I get the spotting in high flow areas after 24 hours or so, and the rest of the glass gets a light film after 48 hours at thich time I clean it (I am kind of weird about my starphire glass though). I have those pastels colours we are speaking of, then again I only have 7 fish in a 275 (just added a black tang though - yeah).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9122638#post9122638 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
IME and from observing many, many tanks. I've always broken it down to two things.

Light and nutrients.

High light, normal level of nutrients. Dark coloration.

High light, very low nutrients more towards the pastel colors.

[Aqua Keepers]

You can use any of the ammino's that are designed for our tanks. Kent, prodibio come to mind but there are others. Just stay away from the stuff for humans untill further studies are done. People are looking into the exact amminos that the corals consume, but until we know, it's safest to go with the reef made product.

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9129967#post9129967 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zuzecawi
now you've got me wondering if the gorgonians are truly eating it as well
I would lean much more towards this being so than for scleractian [stony] corals.
AFAIK, gorgonia would be a much better candidate for phyto consumption. [as would the rotifers, no doubt].

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9131257#post9131257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
You can use any of the ammino's that are designed for our tanks. Kent, prodibio come to mind but there are others. Just stay away from the stuff for humans untill further studies are done. People are looking into the exact amminos that the corals consume, but until we know, it's safest to go with the reef made product.

Why?


I wouldnt be surprised if the kent/etc werent just the human stuff ground up and put into solution.

[highquality]

I have recieved two Maricultured corals that came in. One was a Very Pink Monti. Foliosa and a very lime Green Monti Foliosa . They were way brighter than any other Caps ive seen come in.

[Vanquish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9126329#post9126329 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
Vanquish, you have a lovely tank. Whatever you are doing, keep it up. :D

Thanks Kirsten, I'm trying a whole new load of stuffs currently, the corals are pretty healthy and I've pretty stable parameters, just that I haven't got any of those robust growth in some SPS tanks... I'm trying to lower the nutrients a little more and moved my lights about 4 inches lower... :)

Am also dosing some trace elements and Iodide...

Hopefully the combination wouldn't mess things up!

[stony_corals]

I hate to blow the theory about high levels of light and low nutrients = pastel colors. I've got very high lights (with lumenarc reflectors), and very low nutrients ( 0ppm PO4 per deltec Merck, and 0ppm NO3 per salifert) and I've got deep colorization of my sps.

Part of the problems with human aminos is that there are so many fillers used, lots of sugars, not that sugars are bad, but it's just an example. I use Korallen-Zucht's Aminos....

[danskim]

Interesting discussion.
Now I feel bad because my glass needs a cleaning every 36-48 hours.
Actually, I've noticed if I close my blinds, it really helps with the algae growing on the glass. (My tank is in the sunniest room of the house)

[Serioussnaps]

No one has posted pics of what they mean by pastel colors, although I am sure everyone has a good idea of what the discussion is about. Here is an example......this is an ORA Nathan's Green Millepora(a prime example in my tank of pastelish colors).....got it brown and dark green(it was brown due to LFS) and after 4 months in my tank here it is>>>>>>>

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/Serioussnaps/IMG_0285.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

Its a bad picture, but you get the idea. Instead of a deep dark green that I see many people who have it get...mine is a LIME Green...picture makes it look yellowish but in person it is unmistakable as lime green.

Now, with that said and using this particular coral that is widely owned in captivity maybe we could do some color comparisons and compare all aspects of our reef-keeping philosophies, husbandry, equipment, and water chemistries.

I believe that I get pastel colors on alot of my corals because I run a BB, skimmed pretty good particularly for a small 55g grow-out tank, and also I use T5's as my lighting(very heavy on the blue plus) I feed my corals more than most people just because I can. IMO feeding and adding nutrients hasn't changed MY colors, but only my growth.

Despite the feding anomaly, I tend to agree with the general formula: low nutrients plus high light equals more pastel coloring in acroporids, however, there are many exceptions to this all over RC that one can find.

If i had to bet on it, the two main culprits for pastel like colors in my tank are the T5's and the BB methodology.

Nitrates are 0 0n salifert, phosphate is 0 on saliftert(of course) but i run a GFO in a phosban reactor 24/7 and change the media monthly...also i use 3 times the recommended dosage of Phosban partly because if i dont i get some algae growth and i HATE fricking algae.id rather have pastelish colors than a tank full of nuisance algae

Now, lets see some other examples of pastel colored corals, with pics!!!! Maybe those of you that have a Nathans Green Millie from ORA, post a pic and we can compare for the sake of having a concrete example.


Cheers and Happy February

[Serioussnaps]

BTW Im gonna go snap some new pics of all my pastel like colors for more examples.

[mike89t]

Here is a birdsnest that was orginally much darker in color when I first got the frag. Now it's kind of "pastel" in color.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/73065birdsnest_01_27_07.jpg

I also have a pink mille that is growing great, but the pink coralites have turned to almost white in color. I wonder if my overdriven T5 lighting is bleaching these corals or if they are just "pastel" colors like others are mentioning. This pink mille is the fastest growing coral in my tank but it is now almost a white mille.

I do have a A. Tenius frag that is near the pink mille and it looks great. It has gorgous navy blue tips.

[africangrey]

pastel or not serioussnap, that milli looks sweet!!!

[DaddyJax]

Here is my Nathan's Green milli. I have it for a year, since it was a 1" frag and many, many fraggings!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/DaddyJax/IMG_4110.jpg

[firerock]

Are you using MH or T-5?

[firerock]

That's a beautiful coral BTW. :thumbsup:

[DaddyJax]

MH 250w SE.

[firerock]

A question for those that are experiencing pastel colors on your corals, are you running T-5s?

The colors of my corals are close to Serioussnaps and mike89t, and I am also running T-5s. I thought it has been a common knowledge that corals under T-5s are more pastel than under MH.

[firerock]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9135719#post9135719 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
MH 250w SE.

I think I just really need to change my lighting.... :(

Although some colors are more pastel, while green usually turns into a neon yellow/green, my pink milli is unbeatable though...it is just glowing under the T-5s. I just am having a hard time with blue & purples in SPS. LPS and softies are mostly keeping their colors and thriving.

[firerock]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9134636#post9134636 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mike89t
Here is a birdsnest that was orginally much darker in color when I first got the frag. Now it's kind of "pastel" in color.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/73065birdsnest_01_27_07.jpg

I also have a pink mille that is growing great, but the pink coralites have turned to almost white in color. I wonder if my overdriven T5 lighting is bleaching these corals or if they are just "pastel" colors like others are mentioning. This pink mille is the fastest growing coral in my tank but it is now almost a white mille.

I do have a A. Tenius frag that is near the pink mille and it looks great. It has gorgous navy blue tips.

That's close to what I have on my pink BN. I think mine has an even whiter body than yours.

My T-5s are not overdriven, I have a Tek 6 X 39w over a 46g tank. I have placed some frags of pink pociliopora at areas that are more shaded, and they turned more "brown". I don't think that's the kind of "darkening" most of us are looking for. Once I move the frags out of the shade, they become pastel again with time.

[JB NY]

DaddyJaxVery nice, That's what I consider a darker colored coral though.

Here is another one from a friends tank that I consider deeper or dark coloration.

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/images/dscn_new/DSCN0441.jpg

These corals from my tank are what I think of when I talk about more pastel or lighter colored corals.

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/images/animals/DSCN5285.jpg

http://www.cnidarianreef.com/images/dscn_new/DSCN0455.jpg

[DaddyJax]

JB NY thanks, I was under the impression that he wanted to see others who had the same coral as his.

I would not say that the Rose was pastel but beautiful!

That stag is very nice! I have received a few like it that were maricultured. It looks like it might have the same base or is it attached to your rock?

[easttn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9090970#post9090970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaddyJax
Add a fish or 5 and increase the feedings to once a day at least.
The winner. You need more crap in your life. Great advice. Keep skimmin and add some schoolers if you have the volume.

[DaddyJax]

:lol:

[Aqua Keepers]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9131257#post9131257 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pito
You can use any of the ammino's that are designed for our tanks. Kent, prodibio come to mind but there are others. Just stay away from the stuff for humans untill further studies are done. People are looking into the exact amminos that the corals consume, but until we know, it's safest to go with the reef made product.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9133019#post9133019 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Why?


I wouldnt be surprised if the kent/etc werent just the human stuff ground up and put into solution.

The only reason I say this is because, not too many people have tested the human stuff, and I never would recomend someone to go out and be the guinnie pig. However I won't stop them as someone needs to do it. I just don't wan't their tank crashing and thinking it was my fault. I know that we don't know what (if any) testing the reef made products go through. You're right for all we kknow it's the same dang thing as the human stuff, but I know way more people useing the reef made stuff with awsome results and no ill affects than I know of people useing the human stuff. Kind of like following someone through a mine field. If he steps somewhere and does'nt get blown to pieces, then I probably should'nt risk stepping anywhere else.

[Serioussnaps]

Mike and Firerock-----I am using T5's, Tek T5 not overdriven with 4x54W bulbs.....3 blue plus and 1 aquablue...the blue plus's really make my corals color up better than the other bulbs.(ATI)

I think T5 has alot to do with it and has been documented in many other threads on this very topic. There are many theories why T5's do this that I dont feel like rehashing as I am sure both of you have read all that stuff as it is. BTW if you are having trouble with blues and purples try more blue plus bulbs.....blues are ridiculously blue and easy to keep their color under my lighting...most blues i have gotten look better now under the T5's than the mh's they came under in MY case


JB----2nd one is also a perfect example of what runs through my head when i think of "pastel"...thanks for posting some pics everyone



Daddyjax....your impression was correct...i wanted someone to post a nathan's green because I knew it would show that dark green coloration like yours has. And of course....bam...you have MH's.

Daddy are you BB or at least in the tank you have that green millie in?

Easttn and Daddy----wouldnt feeding corals directly benefit the system in the same manner as adding fish? Same thing just without the fish?

[DaddyJax]

My belief is that the corals have a much easier time absorbing a broken down nutrient, kinda like liquid in our own body systems compared to solid food.

[jpierson77]

Ill post pics friday afternoon of my slimer and cap which are the reason I started this tread.

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9137981#post9137981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
JB----2nd one is also a perfect example of what runs through my head when i think of "pastel"...thanks for posting some pics everyone


The reason I posted those two pictures, is that, IMO both show the lighter coloration we keep calling pastels. But I believe that the overall coloration of the coral should not be pale. You can, and should, have vivid coloration when looking at the coral. The key is to look at were the coloration is, as well as, where you do not have coloration. The two areas to look at are the corallites (especially the tips) and the coenosteum (the area in between the corallites). The coenosteum should be very pale (almost white), the corallites (mostly just the tip, but it depends on the species) however should have a very deep coloration and the color of the polyps, if the polyps are colored (most are), will have a deep coloration as well.

With the two shots, in the 2nd one is very obvious to see what I am writing about. The coenosteum is very prominent due to the spacing of the radial corallites. On the 1st, the coenosteum is not nearly as prominent due to the high density of radial corallites, so it gives the appearance of more color (or darker coloration). But both IMO exhibit the same traits that we are trying to achieve.

Hope that makes sense.

[kirstenk]

Something to consider and not always the case but I have seen a pattern of paler corals in newer systems (less than 1 year old).

[danskim]

I think several people who have posted have established reefs older than 1 year old but still have the same "problem."
But that is interesting to consider... I have kind of pastelly colored corals, and my tank is indeed less than half a year old :)

[kirstenk]

and that is why I said NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. :)

[danskim]

Haha yes, I saw that.

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9140507#post9140507 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
Something to consider and not always the case but I have seen a pattern of paler corals in newer systems (less than 1 year old).

I agree.

A lot of times I see corals in new tanks that are pale, mostly because the reefer is new, and does a couple of thing.

Uses too much light and mildly bleaches their corals. More in the first year, mostly due to inexperience.

Buys wild corals that are paler to begin with.

Have very low nutrient levels because the tank is so new, this leads to mild bleaching when putting frags bought from established tanks. Sometimes mild bleaching from moving corals from and established tank as well.

[kirstenk]

Have very low nutrient levels because the tank is so new, this leads to mild bleaching when putting frags bought from established tanks. Sometimes mild bleaching from moving corals from and established tank as well.

That is what I think. I saw it in my own tank and others. Especially new SPS reefs where the owner has had a tank before and done their homework. They are ultra careful about nutrients, keep a low fish population, usually starve them, and freak out at the tiniest bit of algae.

[zuzecawi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9141041#post9141041 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk

That is what I think. I saw it in my own tank and others. Especially new SPS reefs where the owner has had a tank before and done their homework. They are ultra careful about nutrients, keep a low fish population, usually starve them, and freak out at the tiniest bit of algae.


Heh, then there's some of us who see algae and go Oh, copepod home!

To throw a wrench in this, I have seen a few established, mature reefs, with halide lighting and a small to moderate nutrient load who still had pastel colors. Albeit, I don't know the other chemistry of said reefs, but one situation really pops to mind, (I know this is going to get groans) I got a frag of pocillopora from a LFS. The LFS is established, has a gorgeous show system, which has a decent load of fish, large and small, is stable, and has excellent growth. However, the frag I got was a light/pale emerald green. Now, in my tank, it has a almost raspberry trunk/body with deep dark emerald green tips. Same batch of frags was moved to a different show tank at same LFS and they darkened a little, but still remained a washed out emerald. The original colony continues to be light emerald and otherwise healthy. Now, my frag has grown from a 1" fork to a fist sized ball of branches, where the frags at the LFS are about two inches with four or so branches. We use the same water supply, but his RO DI might be old, and we use the same salt and additives. He's got higher lighting than I do. His are T-5's and halides, as I said before, my sps tank is run off of one lone 250w halide (18K XM on a PFO magnetic ballast)

Ohhh, I so gotta get home to my own computer so I can spend more time on this thread.

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9141483#post9141483 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zuzecawi
I got a frag of pocillopora from a LFS. The LFS is established, has a gorgeous show system, which has a decent load of fish, large and small, is stable, and has excellent growth. However, the frag I got was a light/pale emerald green.

I've found that Pocillopora most times are pale with the tips and polyps making up most (if not all) of the color.

I should put the disclaimer that when I talk about SPS I am almost always only talking about acroporids.

[REEF-DADDY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9142004#post9142004 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
I've found that Pocillopora most times are pale with the tips and polyps making up most (if not all) of the color.

I should put the disclaimer that when I talk about SPS I am almost always only talking about acroporids.

Hijack:
Joe,
Nice to see you actively posting again. :D

:Hijack over

[JB NY]

Thanks Steve, I'm trying...

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9140340#post9140340 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
The reason I posted those two pictures, is that, IMO both show the lighter coloration we keep calling pastels. But I believe that the overall coloration of the coral should not be pale. You can, and should, have vivid coloration when looking at the coral. The key is to look at were the coloration is, as well as, where you do not have coloration. The two areas to look at are the corallites (especially the tips) and the coenosteum (the area in between the corallites). The coenosteum should be very pale (almost white), the corallites (mostly just the tip, but it depends on the species) however should have a very deep coloration and the color of the polyps, if the polyps are colored (most are), will have a deep coloration as well.

With the two shots, in the 2nd one is very obvious to see what I am writing about. The coenosteum is very prominent due to the spacing of the radial corallites. On the 1st, the coenosteum is not nearly as prominent due to the high density of radial corallites, so it gives the appearance of more color (or darker coloration). But both IMO exhibit the same traits that we are trying to achieve.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks, I am a sponge....feed me. I learned something new today.
Its great having someone take part in good threads with such a wealth of experience and success in the growth of SPS(acroporids are always what i refer to as well JB)

Cheers

[zuzecawi]

Heh, I guess I never considered SPS to be the exclusive realm of acros, although I understand that most of you guys are definitely more into the acroporids than the other species. Personally, I like the seriaptorix and montiporas more, as well as the pavonas, but I realize that to you guys anything but acros must be well... like starbucks coffee is to us Northwest Pacific types.
Just a side question, but why are acros more in demand than the plating and convoluted types? Do you guys hold that the acros are better because they're more of a challenge? Or is it just the colors and variety?
As to the poci's generally being lighter in color with colored polyps, I haven't near the experience with these wonderful animals that so many of you have, but I haven't seen many that were as darkly colored as the ones in my tank. Has anybody who's seen them while diving any input here?
Also, earlier it was mentioned that wildcaught acros have paler colors, I found that kind of odd and ironic. Aren't we trying to reproduce the same colors found on the wild reef? Or are people trying to "outstrip" the natural forms? Is this like the deal with growth, where people are trying to make it grow faster than it would on the reef? Or have the wild acros just lost color in importation due to trauma and crappy conditions?
JB NY, what a great explanation of the coloration and characteristics! This is what I'm talking about, with the amazing wealth of information available among people here. I need more books, I swear, there's just not enough time!

[Serioussnaps]

Zuzecawi....my brain releases large amounts of dopamine when I see gorgeous acros, i think that may be why I am drawn to them more. I love the upward growth also. Dont get me wrong I love some montis, but I just get this sick and twisted fascination with seeing a big beautiful acro almost touching the water's surface in an aquarium.

There are people out there that can steer the coloration in their corals to where they want it...I wish i was one, but those that can i am willing to say that most all of the wild corals cant compare to the coloration of theirs in their tanks. This is all PERCEPTION though.

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9142685#post9142685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zuzecawi
I guess I never considered SPS to be the exclusive realm of acros, although I understand that most of you guys are definitely more into the acroporids than the other species.

SPS are not the exclusive realm of acros, I tend to lose sight of the bigger picture when talking about SPS many times and just talk about acros. :) But in reality if you can keep your acros in great shape, all your other SPS should do just fine. For most aquarium owners, acros tend to be the most difficult of the SPS to keep.

Just a side question, but why are acros more in demand than the plating and convoluted types? Do you guys hold that the acros are better because they're more of a challenge? Or is it just the colors and variety?

For me it just became a matter of practicality in my tank. I had a bunch of beautiful pocillopora and montipora corals. The montipora just grew so big so fast that I just decided that I could not keep them in my tank unless I wanted to consistently frag them or else they would consume too much real estate. The big decision not to keep many monitpora was when I pulled out a large cap and realized that I got back almost 2 square feet of space in my tank. :eek:

As for pocillopora I had a bunch of beautiful ones as well. but over the years they kept continually spawning, through polyp bail out, that I ended up with dozens of baby pocillies every where. They became such a nuisance that I just decided not to keep them anymore.

Also, earlier it was mentioned that wildcaught acros have paler colors, I found that kind of odd and ironic. Aren't we trying to reproduce the same colors found on the wild reef? Or are people trying to "outstrip" the natural forms?

I think many people would be happy if we could produce the same colors that can be found in the wild (I know I would). Right now I just don't think that we are at that point in the hobby. We've made great strides but the overall condition on a real reef I think still eludes us.

Is this like the deal with growth, where people are trying to make it grow faster than it would on the reef?

IMO, this is only an issue for people with new reefs, Once a tank with corals have been established for a few years, growth is the part that you end up wishing would slow down. I know in my tank the amount of fragging that had to be done every two months or so was really the thing I looked forward to the least.

[tacocat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9140340#post9140340 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
The reason I posted those two pictures, is that, IMO both show the lighter coloration we keep calling pastels. But I believe that the overall coloration of the coral should not be pale. You can, and should, have vivid coloration when looking at the coral. The key is to look at were the coloration is, as well as, where you do not have coloration. The two areas to look at are the corallites (especially the tips) and the coenosteum (the area in between the corallites). The coenosteum should be very pale (almost white), the corallites (mostly just the tip, but it depends on the species) however should have a very deep coloration and the color of the polyps, if the polyps are colored (most are), will have a deep coloration as well.

With the two shots, in the 2nd one is very obvious to see what I am writing about. The coenosteum is very prominent due to the spacing of the radial corallites. On the 1st, the coenosteum is not nearly as prominent due to the high density of radial corallites, so it gives the appearance of more color (or darker coloration). But both IMO exhibit the same traits that we are trying to achieve.

Hope that makes sense.

As a general rule true, but there are some corals (O-tort and green slimer) which don't exhibit these traits. I have seen these corals in "pale systems" and they are uniform in appearnce in them as well.

As a general rule of thumb, 20K XM bulbs and T-5s almost always produce "pale corals" to varying degrees of course.

Just a side question, but why are acros more in demand than the plating and convoluted types? Do you guys hold that the acros are better because they're more of a challenge? Or is it just the colors and variety?

Joe addressed all the salient points, but I would like to add that the encursting corals are harder to deal with over time, and the plating types tend to be light and flow blockers. Acros are more delicate, but much easier to deal with in mature tanks.

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9143421#post9143421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tacocat
but I would like to add that the encursting corals are harder to deal with over time

Man I HATE encrusting corals. They are impossible to get out of your tank without breaking eveything.

[tacocat]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9143501#post9143501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
Man I HATE encrusting corals. They are impossible to get out of your tank without breaking eveything.

Or pulling down your rockwork.

[zuzecawi]

Heh, thanks for the answers. I tend to not like the branching types, that was why I traded out/sold off most of my softies in the first place. It's also why I'm currently looking into getting Envision to build me a new tank, one that's deeper and more conducive to the montiporas and pavonas. Maybe I'll hit a point where fragging drives me crazy, I'm still at the stage where it's more fun to frag monti than it was to fish out all the dratted palyotoxin bearing stupid zooanthids. I'm VERY allergic to soft corals, I had to wear elbow length gloves to clean my aquarium before.
You know, back on the pastel kick, it's actually the creamy brown colored blue polyped montipora in my tank that fades before anything else, ORA blue Cali tort inclued, and I use that monti as my judge of water quality just as much as test kits. When the monti fades it's time to do a water change, even if I'm not seeing nitrates or anything else whacky on the tests. So much for monti cap being tough! Honestly though, I do know that the montis put up with more adverse conditions. So far I've been pretty happy with the few acros I have, I just don't... appreciate them as much as the plating types.
As far as encrusting corals, I do have a couple, one blue polyped purple monti, and one black monti, and I think they grow slow enough so far that I'm not too worried. Seems like they're pretty demanding though. The black monti does not like too much light, but it likes high flow, I have it with my gorgonians and it seems happy. The purple monti seems to be best up top in the sun.
I see mentioned 20K bulbs and T-5's causing paleness... is that together? Or either or? I don't agree with the 20K causing paleness, in my experience, if anything, when I had the 20K on my system, the corals immediately darkened and colored when brought in from other 10K and actinic systems. The 18K I have on now doesn't seem to have any impact on the colors of the corals, they're all just the same as before I switched. Then again, I might just be lucky.

Those of you with pastel corals, did they fade all at once, or over time?

[jpierson77]

Ok here are my pics, and the reason I originally posted this question.
Pic 1 Slimer right after purchase mid summer.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/jpierson77/tank82806006.jpg

Pic 2 Slimer now
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/jpierson77/slimer002.jpg

Pic 3 slimer w/ white balance on
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/jpierson77/slimer006.jpg

Pic 4 orange cap
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/jpierson77/slimer007.jpg

All pictures are taken with the same camera .

[jpierson77]

Double post

[Big E]

As a general rule true, but there are some corals (O-tort and green slimer) which don't exhibit these traits. I have seen these corals in "pale systems" and they are uniform in appearnce in them as well.

As a general rule of thumb, 20K XM bulbs and T-5s almost always produce "pale corals" to varying degrees of course

My expereices have been contrary to what you mentioned. I've seen slimers that were bright vibrant flourescent green turn into pale yelllowish color in pastel systems. Dark blue torts with light blue hues & loss of vividness.

I've run XM 20k's for 3 years & have never had the pale colors. I think it goes back to what Joe mentioned............how clear(nutrient poor) the water is combined with light intensity dictates pastel or dark & it's a sliding scale based on these two varaibles.

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9127452#post9127452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by antonsemrad
Do organic p04's inhibit growth? Before they break down into inorganic that is.

"organic pO4's" really isn't correct. There is inorganic phosphorus (PO4) and there is organic phosphorus, which is NOT PO4. Any organic molecule having phosphorus in it is organic phosphorus (not organic phosphate). It becomes inorganic phosphorus/phosphate when it breaks down chemically. (Technically many forms of organic phosphorus contain "phosphate radicals" bound to them, which are fairly easily split off into inorganic phosphate, but they don't "act like" PO4 while they are bound). More than anyone really wanted to know...
Allen

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9129229#post9129229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stony_corals
Why wouldn't they? They are phosphates none the less.

No they aren't. See my previous post. They wouldn't act like PO4 because they aren't PO4. Phosphate (PO4) can get into the calcium carbonate crystal lattice and stop the process of calcium carbonate deposition. It "poisons" the crystal formation. Organic phosphates are large molecules that aren't able to do that, even if they "wanted to".
Allen

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9114149#post9114149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
Stony- It is very accurate to say that many systems such as mine are N limited.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9114255#post9114255 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Leonardo's Reef
I think an N limited tank can be possible if you (over)skim wet, have a BB tank, and use GAC (binds organic compounds). This together with the addition of C can create an overall limitation of N.

Not to jump backward too many pages - but don't zeovit/vodka and other Carbon-adding systems work on the fact our tanks are C-limited?

Is it really possible for the tank to go from C limitation to N limitiation back to C limitation for the next daily carbon addition?

IMO - this is assuming an absolute lack of nutrient available - something that would probably be problematic/fatal for our livestock if truly limited or going to `zero available'.

Can our tanks be limited by both daily?

IMO, it raises enough issues to make me consider food as the important change vs. N compounds.

[glassbox-design]

Not to jump backward too many pages - but don't zeovit/vodka and other Carbon-adding systems work on the fact our tanks are C-limited?

Is it really possible for the tank to go from C limitation to N limitiation back to C limitation for the next daily carbon addition?

IMO - this is assuming an absolute lack of nutrient available - something that would probably be problematic/fatal for our livestock if truly limited or going to `zero available'.

Can our tanks be limited by both daily?

IMO, it raises enough issues to make me consider food as the important change vs. N compounds.


Zeovit and other systems do address C limitation...just based off the growth i think it's safe to say they address N limitation too.

I am not sure what you mean...but C and N limitation isnt really a true "cycle". Sure the levels adjust per dosing because we can have a constant drip... but with these systems it is to maintain the cnp ratio for optimal bac growth. Zeovit systems are very low nutrient, but with the addition of bacs, aminos, etc. it allows the corals to feed.

IMO, yes our tanks can be limited by both daily.

eric

[ReeferAl]

A system may be carbon limited for 1 type of organism, such as those bacteria that can't assimilate bicarbonate, but nitrogen limited for those that can use bicarbonate, such as algae/zooxanthallae.

Allen

[ReeferAl]

A system may be carbon limited for 1 type of organism, such as those bacteria that can't assimilate bicarbonate, but nitrogen limited for those that can use bicarbonate, such as algae/zooxanthallae or corals.

Allen

[antonsemrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9147985#post9147985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
"organic pO4's" really isn't correct. There is inorganic phosphorus (PO4) and there is organic phosphorus, which is NOT PO4. Any organic molecule having phosphorus in it is organic phosphorus (not organic phosphate). It becomes inorganic phosphorus/phosphate when it breaks down chemically. (Technically many forms of organic phosphorus contain "phosphate radicals" bound to them, which are fairly easily split off into inorganic phosphate, but they don't "act like" PO4 while they are bound). More than anyone really wanted to know...
Allen

Well I wanted to know! lol
Thankyou for clearing that up for me.

[antonsemrad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9094293#post9094293 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by antonsemrad
I think that the golden/brown zooxanthellae are responsible for the darker pigments. This speaks to the paradox of contemporary methods of keeping stoney corals IMO.

It has been our goal for a long time to keep tank water low in dissoved nutrients like on natural coral reefs. Corals have adapted to survive in this environment with lots of mouths for eating, and the zooxanthellae recycle the coral poo, turning it into carbohydrates/sugar that the coral then makes mucus with. In an aquarium though, its not always the same. If there are excess dissolved nutrients in the water column, the zooxanthellae get to eat, but the coral eats less. That can throw the symbiosis out of balance, causing slower growth, and poor health. However, nowadays folks are keeping dissoved nutrients much lower than before, but may or may not be providing enough nutrients in the form of prey capture. If there is less food for the coral, then there is in turn less coral poo that feed the zooxanthellae. They in turn die and/or are expelled.

I have never seen a real reef, but from the pictures and moves that I have seen, there has not been any 'pastel' colored corals, and likewise there has always been crap (aggregates/detritus) floating all over the place. That leads me to believe that 'light/pastel' corals are in fact malnourished. Now don't get me wrong, zeo tanks, and rainbow colored 'sps' reef tanks can be quite a sight to behold, and it sure does seem like the corals can adapt and grow quite well in this environment, so I can sure see why this is the goal of many hobbyists. But that does not nessesarly mean that the coral is in a 'natural' state, or that the coral is 'healthy'.

When the subject of malnourished/bleached corals comes up in this forum the conventional wisdom is But I am not convinced that this is the best answer. I have no doubt that it works, but that does not mean that its the best method.

First of all, more fish will result in more dissolved nitrogen (ammonia) in the water column. Often the tanks with these issues are already lacking sand, and/or algae, and, we are using less live rock than we did before. It seems to me that these are best lines of defence in combating this unwanted byproduct. In the past, I have suggested the intermentant use of the protein skimmer, but that idea was dissmissed because of concern for ammonia, and oxygen. But that for some reason dosn't apply for adding fish.
Second, digestion comes at an energy cost to the coral, so one might perhaps consider the nutrient profile of the food that the coral is eating. Take flakefood for example, who knows whats in it to begin with, then its dried, stored for god knows how long, fed to the fish, digested, and then the coral eats it. Better than nothing, but why not feed gut loaded zooplanton to the fish? Why not just feed it to the coral? If you like to use seafood, why use the fish to make it small enough for the coral to eat? Wouldn't a kitchen appliance work just as well?

Anton

I now think that the advice that I gave in the above post was, ignorant, misguided, and poor advice.


Add a fish or 5 and increase the feedings to once a day at least.

That, may indeed be the best way.

I don't know why I didn't realize this before, it was staring me right in the face the whole time.

What you guys are doing, is limiting phosphate, not nitrogen. As far as I can tell, the BB's method for limiting nitrogen is still not clearly defined. Organic carbon may be the answer, but it is still new, and somewhat risky. Some people are using RDSB's, but its detritus rotting in the sand that reduces the nitrate, and that is clearly at odds with the p04 limiting approach.

I am not sure how much phosphate zooxanthellae need to grow, but it can't be much. If their growth is limited in this way, organic nitrogen is relatively harmless. That is why you guys get away with having so many fish.

Because nitrate is avalible, once the smallest amount of phosphate hits the water column, zooxanthellae populations explode, overwhelming the corals. I think this happening is what gave birth to terms like 'nutrient bomb', 'brownout', and the fear surrounding brown corals. It is also why any uneaten food (detritus) must be removed before it rots, liquids from blended seafood must be rinsed away, phosphate binders are so usefull, and protien skimmers must not be turned off!

DaddyJax is right!

When did fish excrement get labeled as nutritionally void? My understanding was quite the opposite. It is a broken down and separated carbon and protein source that turned into P04 only after it broke down in the sand or anywhere else it lands and doesn't get consumed. Also I believe that what you put in the fish is going to come out. Pellets and flake are things that I never use. I am confident that most if not all of them are fillers and crap. I like the idea of puree mush and using good fresh seafood. I also agree that corals can and do consume zooplankton and pods, but they also consume detritus as well. Pods are a reefers best friend and we will try to produce as many as possible so that they keep our systems clean.

[shelburn61]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9143421#post9143421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tacocat
As a general rule true, but there are some corals (O-tort and green slimer) which don't exhibit these traits. I have seen these corals in "pale systems" and they are uniform in appearnce in them as well.


I bought my slimer as a small colony and within a few weeks of acclimation (on the bottom) it lost the deep emerald green. I have a lot of trouble maintaining greens in general.
Notice the pink cap as well.

Although my display is BB, I run a 6" sandbed in the refugium. If we are assuming N limitation is a contributing factor, would removing the sandbed help bring the C-N-P ratio more in line?

The pics are overexposed, but represent the colors fairly well:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/shelburn61/IMG_0718.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f243/shelburn61/IMG_0724.jpg

[Ventralis321]

Ok heres my situation. I currently have a 75gal mixed reef. I use a deep sand bed. It has been running for 3-4 years. My acros used to have lots of deep colors. Back then i had more fish and fed heavily. Only problem is my Po4 climbed over time and i had to find a way to remove it.

My question is how do i maintain my deep sand bed from accumulating too much organics and Po4 with keeping my nutrients to levels my corals were doing best at. I try and vacuum the sand once in a while and then add critters back to the sand but don't know if thats really a good idea or not. Seems to work a couple of my corals seemed to get some color back but not like before. I remember using Sea chem Reef plus before too and i know thats supposed to have amino acids in it.

I never used to touch my DSB before and got some excellent colors. My guess is that you're supposed to have some nutrients in the sand but not an excessive amount which inevitably will occur overtime.

Please share DSB experiences and maintenance. Advice on keeping the sand from compacting and other ways to export the Organics trapped in the sand.

[stony_corals]

Ventralis, I've only used sand beds that were a max 3-4" w/o and plenum, and 4" with a plenum. I've not had PO4 issues with either setups and I've have multiple setups. Part of the problem with the 'nutrient sink' argument about sand seems a bit flawed. That is that these nutrients are leached back into the water column. This could be happening, but I've never had an issue with PO4 in these systems. Plus, bacteria and microorganisms use the O (oxygen) from NO3 and from PO4 for respiration. Now the remaining N as N2 does escape, but P is not a gas and remains. I don't think the P cycle is well understood in the context of our systems. But I do use protein skimmers which can take out a lot of PO4... I am assuming you have a properly sized skimmer?!?

It's difficult to say if/why PO4 is leached back into the water column. I'm not sold on the idea that it actually happens. I know that several people have had 'crashes' due the 'nutrient sink'.

[Ventralis321]

Interesting point stony. Actually my skimmer is oversized for my tank due to my tank load. Lots of fish and corals and rock. Its just funny that when i was feeding heavily i was getting deeper colors. But the problem i was concerned about was the nutrient sink crash.

I bought a salifert Po4 test kit and found my phosphates were through the roof well according to the instructions. So I bought some rowaphos and lowered the Po4 reading to almost 0. This seemed to affect my corals but i'm not 100% sure. It didn't happen overnight. It seemed to have maybe made the color of my corals lightened. But there could be many factors involved too. I was vacuuming my sand bed around that time. I was feeding less food to the fish. So i can't really pinpoint it.

Back to my sand bed. When I stir the sand in places that i don't normally touch, brown detritus comes flying out. It seems those areas are nutrient sinks and the detritus layers and layers on top of each other and creates a thick sludge area. Should i be vacuuming these portions once in a while. Because i have been removing them and notice my tanks water to be a little clearer. But it also sets back my tank back somewhat. I notice it takes longer for my water to clear up during feedings a few days after i clean my sand bed. I'm guessing i'm removing good bacteria as well. It usually corrects itself within a week to a month depending on how much i took out of the sand.

So to clear some things up. Were my Po4 levels creating good colors in my Acro's? Or was it the heavy feedings to my fish? or was it the sludge in my sand bed? Also like you said Stony would my tank crash eventually if i don't keep the nutrient sinks clean?

[sprite]

my bb tank is 7 months old and when i started adding frags they would turn pastel colored...so i did some reading and came to the conclusion my tank was nutrient starved... i feed cyclopeze 2-3 times a day and dt o-eggs everyother night and skim heavy, my frags went from pastel to deep dark colors especially my tort and tricolor, a browny i got from lfs turned a flourescent green and my monti digita is a deep orange color...i run gfo 24/7 and have t5ho...my skimmer is a octopus 110 rated for 150 and i run it on a 29 with 2 mj mods pointed at each other

[stony_corals]

According to Shimek, Borneman, Sprung,etc, For a dsb/jaubert plenum, they recommend to not disturb the sand beds. I've have always been a bit lazy on tank maintenance... the only thing I have siphoned was stuff in the sump.

I've had systems that had the pockets of detritus build up, but didn't exhibit any PO4 in the water column. I think what many of the author above have written about is that detritus is part of important food webs, so I don't sweat detritus too much, unless its in the front and makes the tank a bit unsightly.

I'm not sure if PO4 can contribute to a darkening of acros, I'd speculate (it is only a speculation) that NO3s and other nitrogenous compounds contribute more to the browning out. Why? Nitrate is essentially a plant fertilizer, and by having larger amounts than what the coral is used to causes the zoox to multiply to a much larger population. Therefore the coral turns brown. One thing I'm curious to know and understand better but won't necessarily come from hobbyists is the answer to the question of whether our tanks really are nutrient (N,P,C) starved. All our test kits test for inorganic molecules of those elements. Meaning, if ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test at 0PPM, these are all inorganic molecules.... What about dissolved organic nitrogen?dissolved organic phospates? In the third Sprung/Delbeek book, Delbeek show that a system at the Waikiki aquarium had higher than NSW levels of DON and DOP over a three year period, whereas the inorganic N and P that everyone tests for were near NSW.

There is a lot we do not understand about what happens in our reefs, because we can not test accurately for many of these nutrients/ions etc. It also makes it difficult because it's challenging for the hobbyist to isolate one variable in our systems and that our brains were designed to make associations as a survival mechanism, where they may not exist.

Also, if you're really interested in knowing what your PO4s are, I'd go with the Hanna or Deltec/Merck test kit. Pretty much all other PO4 test kits aren't that accurate.

[Kolognekoral]

A great thread, to say the least!

I've experienced changes in my coral colours and have found two major influences; NO3 and Trace Elements. PO4 doesn't seem to have a direct effect.

I say direct as, according to new studies, the balance between available NO3 and PO4 is key to coral metabolism. I wish I could refer you to the article(s), by Kokot, but they are in German. If there is insufficient PO4, the corals tend to dissolve from the base in an attempt to save themselves. I think many of us have seen this. The other extreme is too much NO3, which pushes the metabolism of the Zooxanth. and the coral darkens to a brown.

Now brown is not dark blue! I am convinced that the blue corals are less easily influenced, although the pastel blues will show a change when the NO3 is too high in that they darken and oft become more attractive ;) , in some eyes, anyway. This does make sence in tha the blue corals seem to possess more pigment and are capable of remaining blue, despite high Zoox. levels.

Rose and pink corals, as well as many greens, tend to go brown or reddish. Often this is, also, attractive, but brown ain't my thing!

Now, I have recently been filtering with a Zeolith and noted a nutrient reduction, assumedly via ammonium reduction. The corals are getting paler after one week. Nothing shocking, just paler.

I have a DSB refugium attached to the reef and this has shown a reduction as well, with the algaes not growing quickly. To attempt to adjust this, my skimmer is now turned off. I suspect it competes too much with the DSB.

Facit: I like my DSB, so it will remain on the system. Not to mention that the other animals benefi from the critters that flow into the reef.
I want to continue with the zeolith, as it keeps my water clear and does maintain a stable environment, which is my main goal.

I can use the skimmer if things get out of control, but I will feed my corals and fish (I have a lot!) in the sense of maintaining a stabile environment.

I do believe lots of animals in the aquariun do make for a stabile environment, when they remain in balace to the filter system. Plus, their metabolic wastes (poo, to the rest of you :eek: ) do help the various lower animals.

OK, whatdya think? :D

[stony_corals]

Jamie, wie gehts? Ich habe im Koln geht, es war 15 jahrs. Mein deutch ist niche so gut....

Is the Kokot article the one about vodka? I'm not remembering that one.... The Zeolithe ( are you using the ZEOvit zeolithe?) do absorb ammonia, but also become the site for nitrifying bacteria cultures, though I think that given a slow enough flow through the zeolithe reactor, denitrifying bacteria also are developed.

You mean you aren't concerned about your DSB becoming a nutrient sink and causing your tank to crash?!?(I'm joking...). I've not heard about the insufficient PO4 causing basal tissue recession before, though I've heard that a lack of flow and too high of alkalinity causing that. (All anecdotal...)

I'd recommend you turn on your skimmer during the night though... Your tank inhabitants would all respire CO2 during the dark period, so that may cause issues, unless your refugia is lit the entire time.

Again, I'm having a difficult time with our tanks being totally nutrient poor as I referenced the Delbeek aquarium at the Waikiki Aquarium showed higher levels of organic P and N relative to NSW. Either way, I don't know, it could be that we're trying to blame something (pale colors) on something ( low 'nutrients') where the association does not exist.

I've more questions than answers....

[RichConley]

"I'm having a difficult time with our tanks being totally nutrient poor as I referenced the Delbeek aquarium at the Waikiki Aquarium showed higher levels of organic P and N relative to NSW"

I haven't seen the Waikiki aquarium, but I have seen some of the other famous coral displays around the country, and it is my oppinion, that very many of us have cleaner environments than these displays. Whether thats good or bad, I dont know, but all of these systems seemed to have what us hobbiests would deem an extreme amount of particulate in the water.

[stony_corals]

The Waikiki is quite impressive... I hear what you are saying, but IMHO since there aren't any tests for organic N and P compounds, we can't truly say whether or not our systems are nutrient starved. We simply can not measure or prove this, nor disprove this.

[RichConley]

no, I know, my point was that the fact that the Waikiki aquarium was higher than natural doesnt mean that the average hobbiest that complains about lightening is.

[Kolognekoral]

Stony,

the Jörg Kokott article is part of a 7-part series that was published in Koralle during 2004-2005. As Koralle is now available in English as Coral, the serie may be reprinted. They probably have reserves the rights to the series. Translated, the name would be 'Nutrients in the Reef Aquarium'. He discusses all the various components of the nutrient cycle and builds a big, if somewhat complex, picture of the reef environment.

As I understand, J. Kokott is currently studying on the GBR in Australia and may have published some papers for his degree. Where one finds them is a good question. Often these academic sites require a paid membership before you can access.

As for basal tissue recession, I know that water flow is a factor, from personal experience, but this type of tissue recession is typically in responce to less than optimal gass exchange at the base, so the coral simply reabsorbs the extra tissue. The reaction with the PO4 limitaion is very rapid and the entire colony can dissolve in 24-48 hours! Possibly we have a bacteria component here as well, but from what I've read, no specific consistent pathogen has been isolated. In most cases, pathogens are opportunists and simply take advantage of the situation, rarely are they the direct causal.

I think there is a real grain of truth in the low nutrient philosophy, but the aesthetic side is not to everyones liking. I have corals that look their best when the nitrates are around 10ppm, with their colours being much more saturated. Now, those of us prefering the more pastel tones should avoid too much NO3 as this will increase the zooxant. production and darken the coral. I have one coral that went from flouresent green to cocoa brown and I would like to see it more to the green! :mad: . I currently am running a low nutrient program and see the first signs of lightening, but it is slow.

As to adding nutrient supplements, such as amino acids and organics, this is an interesting approach and, when one learns what dosage for them is correct, it is an fascinating tool.

I know of aquarists in Germany that actually manage to model the colours of their corals with aimed dosing of specific trace elements, such as iodine, eisen, strontium, etc. I am not that far and, frankly, I am not sure I want to model the colours. I am a fan of letting nature follow her own devises, she's been at it much longer and I always manage to gleen new knowledge from her tried and true systems.

I hear you on the DSB competing for O2, but it is a few hours shifted from the reef, so we experience only 6 hours of total darkness in the system. I am keeping an eye, though. Thanks for the reminder.

Again, always more questions than answers, but that is the very reason that we all enjoy these forums so :D:

[stony_corals]

Jamie,

It sounds like an interesting article, I'll try to see if I can get reprints.... What I've used to find scientific articles is google scholar (http://scholar.google.com). I'll check and see if his name results in anything.

With going to really low nutrients, it's good to go slow to allow the coral to adapt. I think this is where a lot of aquarists run into issues with the probiotic approaches - they can lower them very quickly.

Are you using ozone or uv? What supplementation are you adding?

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9148006#post9148006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReeferAl
No they aren't. See my previous post. They wouldn't act like PO4 because they aren't PO4. Phosphate (PO4) can get into the calcium carbonate crystal lattice and stop the process of calcium carbonate deposition. It "poisons" the crystal formation. Organic phosphates are large molecules that aren't able to do that, even if they "wanted to".
Allen

Allen,

I appreciate your thoughts. I found this article that shows that organic phophates can limit calcification.

The effects of HEBP, an inhibitor of mineral deposition, upon photosynthesis and calcification in the scleractinian coral, Stylophora pistillata. Yamashiro, Hideyuki. J. Exp. Mar. Biol. Ecol. (1995), Volume Date 1995, 191(1), 57-63.

Also referenced in http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm, specifically "Organic phosphate and phosphonate inhibitors of calcification have also been studied and probably work by a similar mechanism. HEBP, a bisphosphonate that is shown below, causes a 36% inhibition of calcification in Stylophora pistillata at 10 mm, and stops it completely (99%) at 500 mm."

[Kolognekoral]

Stony,
I am using UV, as my Acanthus leucosternon is a bit sensitive. I was never a fan from UV until I had this doctor, not I've learned to work with it.

I do not have the entire circulation running through it. It runs with an Eheim canister, about 600lH (150galH.) and this is sufficient to maintain my doctor.

As far as I can tell, this has little or no effect on colouration of the corals (and really doesn't belong on this thread, therefore!).

[stony_corals]

Jamie,
I understand. Well in many articles that mention how Europeans maintain reef aquaria, it is frequently mentioned that ozone and uv are often employed. When I was in Europe years ago, I found as many did as didn't. But the reason cited in these articles is that ozone and uv help create a more 'sterile' environment and therefore colors tend to be better in Europe.... Just my curiousity...

[Kolognekoral]

Stony,

interesting hypothesis, but I can't see why a sterile environment would help. Ultimately, we are seeking a low nutrient environment, which shouldn't be confused with sterility. I understand a sterile environment as one with less life, particularly microlife. I have been advised to discontinue my use of UV as it breaks down amino acids, which are a typical SPS suppliment these days and kills bacteria which are an important part of the new feeding philosophy. Now in this sense, I believe UV may have a deliterious effect on colour production, as many bacteria are associated with the production of raw materials that may find their way into pigment production (saved :p ) . I know very little about pigment production, but the series of articles running in Advance Aquarist by Dana Riddle may hold some clues. I'll have to check 'em out, again. Here are the adresses for two out of (I think) 4 parts.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/11/aafeature2

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature

I forgot to mention, I have only been adding an Amino Acid supplement from Timo, Iodine from Elos and feeding relatively heavily.

[stony_corals]

Jamie,

I can't say it's my hypothesis... just some reading on the Internet :) That's one of the key reasons I've stayed away from them (UV and Ozone) - killing bacterias, breaking down aminos (which I add as well). Good articles. Are you using a probiotic approach?

[Kolognekoral]

Yes and no! I am at a cross-roads and do use some of the Zeolith filtering products, but, as I do have the UV and a refugium, the probiotic approach is too strick a philosophy for me. The refugium has a DSB, is full of interesting small critters and regular blooms of plankton are washed into the main reef every evening. Last night was particularly immpressive as it was full moon (according to my lighting). I do think this does help the corals maintain better colour in any case. Apparently, Acroporas cover some 70% of their energy needs with plankton, not through the zooxanthellae. The zoox. provide the sugars, but the protiens are taken up via plankton ingestion and probably osmosis as amino acids.

I read an interesting article, again in German, about an aquarium maintained without the actual Zeolith filter medium, but with the addition of the supplemental products. The colours were electric and almost too much for my taste, but I think one can control the intensity via proper dosing. This is where I am heading, with the refugium/DSB as the main filtre, carbon, occaisional skimming and small amounts of supplements. This system is running about 4 months and I have almost no nitrates and the PO4 is my only real concern. For this I am culturing macroalgae in the refugium. This still need more time to fully develope.

During this time, my corals went from light to dark and are now becoming lighter once again, which seems to signal a stabile environment.

[Big E]

Apparently, Acroporas cover some 70% of their energy needs with plankton, not through the zooxanthellae. The zoox. provide the sugars, but the protiens are taken up via plankton ingestion and probably osmosis as amino acids

I believe you have that backwards. The zoo can provide 75-95% of the coral's demands. I read this many times & thought it was common knowledge. This is according to Sorokin....

Some info provided here......
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/e_borneman_051098.html

"Indeed, corals do actively feed on bacteria in the mucus, in the water, and attached to particulate matter. They typically utilize them for 5% of their diet, by weight. This is on an efficiency level on par with many of the specialized filter feeders and sponges. Sorokin found that, in general, bacterioplankton ingestion alone can provide from 8-25% of the coral’s respiratory demands. This amount is the equivlent of 1-10% of the animals total biomass per day...from bacterioplankton!! Its assimilation index by nutritional content is the equivalent to the nutrition acquired by the capture of small crustaceans (which are by weight, much greater and a greater energy expenditure to capture). Phosphorus, a normally limiting resource in coral reefs, is found in the cell walls of bacteria. Coral consumption of bacterioplankton provides them with a more easily assimilated source of phosphorous than from the uptake of inorganic phosphate contained in the water. "

[Horace]

I would like to add one more little side topic about color and Zoox. I think there are two separate things happening here that are sometimes automatically assumed to be the same thing. That is that the richness of color is directly related to the zoox population. Im not ENTIRELY sure there is a perfect connection. Now I do agree that if you have too many zoox your coral will turn brown (color covered by brown zoox), however, there are plenty of corals that have neither color OR Zoox. I have a few corals in my tank that have been stressed that have almost no color on them, and you can visibly see there is very little zoox as well (essentially bleached). I think what we really need to figure out is how to get a coral to produce COLOR, yet not produce a bunch of Zoox.

I would also like to say my Zeo tank exibits quite a few corals with what I would call pastels as well. Peticularly my green corals. My green slimer, green caps, green pocillapora, green digi, ALL show very light colors. Some of my others are pastel as well but not as noticeable as my greens. Basically they are more of a yellow/green rather than the deep green that I have seen these corals in the tank they were fragged from (GQJeff's Zeovit tank).

I have been fighting this for nearly a year now and I have only been able to slightly change the greens for the better. About the only thing I have not tried is adding more fish. I have increased my feedings, and that seemed to help some, but not dramatically. The past two weeks I have tried doubling the amount of Aminos I dose to the tank, but I have yet to notice any difference. I am going to continune with this for atleast another month and see if there are any results. I would really rather figure out how to better feed my tank than to add fish. Though adding a higher bioload on the tank MAY work, im not sure that is really the answer. I think that will lead to more phosphate, and I would rather just raise the Nitrogen alone.

One other note, I have NEVER been able to grow chaeto in my tank. It looks ok (I dose iron), but it doesnt grow at all. I think this is an indication that my tank is very defficent in either N or P or both as well.

[Kolognekoral]

Big E,

in the article I read (wish I had bookmarked it, now) it was clearly noted that most corals require extremely large procentages of zooplankton in their diets to grow and prosper. The zooxanthellae only provide them sugars. Now to maintain themselves corals would be able to continue on just sugars, but in order to reproduce, grow, produce pigemnts, they must have other nutririon. This really only makes sense, we all know how effective sugars are for human energy spurts, but living from them is another thing.

Acros (those tested were often unidentified) were noted in the research as typically covering 70% of the nourishment through zooplankton. As I understand it, this was under 'natural' conditions, which I take to mean a NSW type situation, as found on a reef.

Now, I had previously read that corals get most of their nutrition from zooxanthellae, this was some 20 years ago. It appears the experiments only indicated that the coral COULD survive under such a diet. I have never seen a reference to growth rates or reproduction in cinjunction with these early experiments.

In another article I read an interesting tidbit on extended polyps; those corals that extend their polyps mainly during daylight are considerably more dependant on their zooxanthellae and the polyps tend to have a colourless body. Those that extend their polyps at night are most heavily dependant on zooplankton, they, also, tend to have highly coloured polyps. OK, this clearly makes some sense, a coral does not waste energy extending its polyps at the least advantageous time.

Now, maybe this has some correlation to coral colours! If the zooplankton loving corals also have more colour, then it may well be that the protiens are a key factor in manufacturing pigment. Amino acids are the building blocks of protiens. Hmmm

On the subject of pigment, does anyone know which types of pigments have been isolated in corals? Are anthocyanins present or are they generally lipid pigments. I ask as anthocyanins are interesting in producing blues in an alkaline environment. They vary the tone via hanging sugars onto the main molecule.

Horace, I agree 100% with you here, symbionts and pigments are two different factors working side by side. By increasing the zooxanthellae numbers, we are creating a darker backgound for the (chromo)pigments. Similar mechanisms are found all through nature, such as parrot feathers that refract light to create whate we see as green. There is no green pigment involved, it is yellow plus a refractive- blue structure in the feathers that give the impression of green. Cool!

As to adding fish to increase the available nitrogen...why not? I plan on adding a small school of Anthias to my tank to increase available nitrogen. In my eyes, it's the more enjoyable solution than dosing nitrates from a brown bottle :rollface: I really think it boils down to deciding what one wants to see/have and aiming for this goal. There are generally a few roads heading in the right direction. I have started feeding a powdered diet in the evenings, when the polyps are extended and my corals are becoming a bit lighter in tone. Maybe this helps them rearrange their metabolism to require fewer zooxanthellae? May just be anecdotal BS!

Just some thoughts,

[Obi-dad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9247284#post9247284 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Horace

One other note, I have NEVER been able to grow chaeto in my tank. It looks ok (I dose iron), but it doesnt grow at all. I think this is an indication that my tank is very defficent in either N or P or both as well.

My chaeto growth stopped after installing a much larger skimmer and using Phosban. My tank has always measured 0 for nitrates. I have recently started dosing 2ppm KNO3 daily, and my chaeto has doubled in size in a week (the tank measures 0ppm nitrate again by the next day). I think that my tank has a lower ratio of N to P than normal. I haven't noticed any difference in coral colors yet, but I have only been doing this for a week and changes of coloration in corals is normally not very rapid (other than going to white because of bleaching). I am hoping to see increased colors in my corals, right now they are pastel.

[stony_corals]

Big E, the thought that a corals zoox could provide all the energy a coral needs is pretty old. Photosynthesis of the zoox only supply the host coral with sugars via translocation. In order to grow, the coral needs a source of N and aminos. This is what fish poo, probiotic, and feeding fish more provides.

[Big E]

If it's old.......show me some scientific data that has changed this?

How bout some links.........where are these facts located at?

[stony_corals]

Well, it is pretty well documented that photosynthesis results in O2 and sugar, by taking in CO2 and light energy. It's the same with land plants and the zoox. No animal can live on sugar alone, proteins are required to build tissue, the same with corals.

[Big E]

stony corals,

I'm referring to sceintific info that refutes what I just posted.

Where are these newer recent studies that say corals get 70% of their needs from zooplankton & Sorokin was in errror.

If this were true then I should be able to have corals thrive in normal florescent lighting as long & I can give them all the zooplankton they need. I'd like to see someone try this.

This would be great........we can all get ride of our halides & HO t5's.


Letme ask this...........Do you think a coral would last longer without lights or without food?

[Serioussnaps]

Interesting discussion everyone.

BigE---------my guess would be without food. As their primary source of food does come from photosynthesis. Its like asking.....What do you think your corals could do without longer....their primary or secondary source of food? Without the food the coral could still produce its own food with light. Without light, one would have to supply tons and tons of prey/food and hope that they "eat"/consume it.

One thing...ive been watching all the blue planet series and quite a few of the national geographic shows that are showing for the most part the great barrier reef.....one thing that someone mentioned was the particulate matter flowing in the Waikiki aquarium. My guess is that particular tank is slam packed full of zooplankton. Also, if you watch the "Largest European Aquarium" show you will notice that they strive to bring about this great particulate matter, and micro life. On the natural reefs that are LOADED full of healthy Acroporids you see thick waves of "stuff"/particulate matter/zooplankton flowing over and through them. I mean THICK amounts of the particulates.

I believe this is actually healthy for a reef/aquaria situation. I used to be on the skim skim skim...destroy nutrients bandwagon, but after seeing, studying , and watching videos on the GBR I am starting to move away from that. Hopefully, my corals will show less of a pastel coloring along with it. ------------I am like HORACE...my main problem is with greens. I get a lime green in caps, and Acros show that yellow/lime/green color. Blues are outstanding in my tank and show no pastel coloring at all. I just want all of em to be perfect.

Horace---------do your purples(in Acros only) tend to seem a little more bluish and less of a deep purple...i know mine do

I was considering the ultralith/zeo type systems, but the goals of the system are already achieved in my setup and after reading it induces pastel colors.........that is not what I need either.

[Horace]

Serious, my blues are all pretty darn nice I think. My purples arent too shabby either actually. My tort has nice blue tips with a pretty deep purple body, also with green in it. When it lightens, the green is the first to go away. My oranges also shift to more of a pink color, and my greens to more of a yellow color.

Blues/purples both look great IMO.

[Big E]

Good post Serioussnaps,

I consider dissolved organics, bacteria, particular organic matter(detritus) most of the food corals consume in our systems. I can supply that just by feeding my fish & still be in control of the excess nutrients.

I have little concern for the zooplankton population in my system feeding the corals or adding a bunch of supplements that aren't needed.

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9248580#post9248580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
stony corals,

I'm referring to sceintific info that refutes what I just posted.

Where are these newer recent studies that say corals get 70% of their needs from zooplankton & Sorokin was in errror.

If this were true then I should be able to have corals thrive in normal florescent lighting as long & I can give them all the zooplankton they need. I'd like to see someone try this.

This would be great........we can all get ride of our halides & HO t5's.


Letme ask this...........Do you think a coral would last longer without lights or without food?

So you think Sorokin was wrong? Why? Sorokin is one of the most respected coral researchers.

I'm sure it could live on sugar alone, but would you want to? Yes, there are some institutions that have had success in maintaining acropora under flourescent lighting, the Eilat Zoo or something in Israel is doing just that. Sure it's brown, but it's growing under two fluorescent lights, see TRA3.

I'm looking for those papers.....

[stony_corals]

"These results indicate that, even under optimal light conditions, photoautotrophy cannot satisfy the maximal daily energy and nutrient requirements of both maintenance and growth….It is also clear that calcification can be enhanced by feeding under a variety of ambient conditions."

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/snn/index.php

[DaddyJax]

It all comes back to bioload and what you are feeding your fish and what kind of fish you have imo. To me the high metabolism of Anthias and Chromis and Wrasses gives the needed breakdown of meaty foods and releases(detritus) them in a very soluble form(amino acids as well as nitrates) for the pods and other microrganisms that live in the rock along with corals. I have no problem keeping any color in my systems and I run a BB tank with heavy skimming and a healthy amount of Macro algae.

Macro is another overlooked aspect of it all imo. It takes away Co2 and Po4 and leaves lots of good stuff behind as well as hosting pods and such.

PE is extendend the most at night, pods are the most active at night. Pods are consuming detritus and other forms of bioload and is also releasing thier own which is being consumed by corals that have those extra long polyps out! This is just my observations that I have been documenting now for the past year. I don't have a degree(yet:rolleyes:) but I have done a tremendus amount of research and I hope that this may help.

[Big E]

So you think Sorokin was wrong? Why? Sorokin is one of the most respected coral researchers.

Uh no..........my post quoted Sorokin.

I NEVER said corals didn't feed, I disagree with the overemphasis of feeding with commercial products & the comment concerning that 70% of their demands are met by ZOOPLANKTON.

I mentioned bacteria, dissolved organics, & particulate organic matter.....all food. That's not zooplankton. Zooplankton plus the aformentioned make up that 8-25% demand..........all of them together. That equals what I'd call bacterioplankton in our systems mentioned by Sorokin.

Whatever.........it's not worth arguing the point when its right in front of your face if you look around.

[Kolognekoral]

Big E,

bacteria is certianly zooplankton! It's not a plant and there are two main types of plankton, phyto and zoo. The term bacteroplankton is used as a sub-chapter under zooplankton when one is making a comparison in the same sense that micro and macro planktons are not necessarily phyto or zoo unless otherwise explained. In the studies I had read, bacteria is one part of the zooplankton considered.

Feeding suppliments is no different than feeding typical foods. There is a fluid run from flakes to animo acids. And, whe feed the aquarium, not just the fish. Everything benefits (or not!) from the nourishment, whether through their mouths directly or indirectly or through osmosis.

I agree, it's not worth arguing the point. You follow your method and report back other will do the same (and hopefully report back)

By the way, the US edition of Coral ran those articles on nutrition by Jürg Kokott in their first issues. Very interesting stuff all around. I read the originals in German, so I can only assume the translations are the same. The sections on nitrate vs phosphate defecit are very enightening. I still cannot find the study on zooplankton, I don't even remeber what language it was!

[Big E]

Lol.........no reason to get caught up in semantics. Whatever you care to define it as it makes up 8-25% of the corals demands.

We are saying the same thing............I feed the fish, but everything in the systems gets some directly or down the line in some form. That's all that's needed. There's plenty for the corals, they don't need that much.

Nothing to report back about...........I run BB don't have light colors & I only feed the fish. I don't use any chemical export, UV, ozone, filter bags, ect.
Water changes & a skimmer make up my export system & this strikes a balance for me.

It's all about finding a balance for your system, no two are going to be the same.

[Kolognekoral]

OK, this is a link to part 4 of the series where I referenced the 70%! By the way, in this breakdown, the bacteria are listed seperately although, as I understand the graphic, the end % is considering all heterotroph sources, which should include the bacteria. (correct me if this is not the case)

The rest of the series is great and should be read and considered by all. It is A LOT of information, but creates a fascinating window into the knowledge we now have. Any, yes, some things do seem to contradict, but that may be my inability to assimilate all this info.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/eb/index.php

enjoy
:)

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9234007#post9234007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
no, I know, my point was that the fact that the Waikiki aquarium was higher than natural doesnt mean that the average hobbiest that complains about lightening is.

I know that was your point. Do you know what your DOP and DON levels are? The only way to find that out is by sending them to a lab as there are no hobbyist test kits currently that test those.

This is just something I'm trying to explore... I am in agreement that pastel colors indicate that a color isn't getting enough fish poo... Just trying to stimulate some discussion. DOP can become a source of DIP, as unlike N, P doesn't leave our systems unless the P is uptaken by algae and subsequently harvested. I do not know, though, if DON makes it's way into the inorganic cycle that we all know about.

[stony_corals]

Big E, yeah, we're in agreement. I'm guilty of skimming and not reading.... part of that ADHD thing... Curious, do you have Sorokins book? I've not been able to find it anywhere. Yeah, as long as the corals have some source of N, that should suffice to provide enough for growth. I think there are some decent commercial food products out there, and hope that they only improve. But you can't beat throwing a few raw shrimp, mussels, clams, etc into a blender and putting that into the tank as well...

[MiddletonMark]

Stony - Sorokin's book is out of print I'm pretty sure - though you can find a used one around now + again. [that's how I got mine]

Now to get past chapter 3 [beyond just skimming] :lmao: ... not exactly light reading.

[danskim]

Back to life after a month and a half.
Perhaps the BCM would help with the pastel-ation?

[Obi-dad]

I had the light, pastel 'zeo' colors, which I don't care for. I had 0 nitrates. I dosed 2ppm potassium nitrate for a couple months (the tank went back to 0ppm each night). The colors darkened, looking much nicer to me. Then I stopped dosing and started feeding double the amount I had been. Now the nitrate level stays at about 2ppm, and my acro colors look nice. The lesson I learned is that my light colors were due to the fact that I had been feeding too little.

[Kolognekoral]

Yes, yes, YES! I love it when something gets confirmed! Thanks, Obi Dad. :smokin: