Poor support/policies

[1sleeper]

I didn't like my noisy mag7. After much research and consideration I ordered an Eheim 1260 from MD. I read the reviews and threads and everyone says the 1260 is an over achiever and the 1262 is overkill. It took exactly 7 days to arrive regular ground which was Friday. I hooked it up over the weekend and it's not flowing like the mag7 and is almost as noisy. I called this morning to exchange for a better pump and was notified by Robert that the policy "clearly stated" on the website that it has to be defective. I could send it RMA but if they plug it in and it works to their satisfaction, then I'm getting the unit back. NO THANKS!
It is not MD's fault that I am unsatisfied with the pump, but where's the customer satisfaction guarantee? Unfortunately, my LFS sells only MJ's and I have no idea what works unless I try it (especially a return pump). I bought everything minus my tank at MD and had no idea that I wasn't protected. So I'm off to find a new supplier to take my money that offers satisfaction guaranteed. Anyone want a two day old Eheim 1260?
Jim Foran

[owsi]

If MD takes it back, who pays for it, We do in higher prices. If it was defective, you would have a case, but not if you decided it was not what you wanted. The retailer would have to sell it used, and pass the loss on in higher prices for me.

[kiknchikn]

I think you're being a little unreasonable. You can't expect a company to let you buy things, open them, use them, and then send them back if you don't like them at no cost to you. I've never encountered a business that allows that, and I suspect that any that does won't be around very long in an industry as competitive as this one.

Have you tried checking to see if there is a reef club in your area? If there is they will likely be more than happy to help you find a pump that meets your needs (if one exists).

[1sleeper]

Points well taken. So you buy something online and it turns out to be a total POS. Not at all what you were told it is. You guys don't want to return it? The pump may indeed be defective and having nothing but my mag7 to compare it to, I would say that it is. BUT it isn't worth my time and money shipping it back to leave it at their discretion and another week shipping it back to me. BTW, If MD takes it back Owsi doesn't pay for it. They send it back to their distributer for credit. Eheim eventually gets it back, tests it, fixes it, cleans it and repacks it. Or, puts the good parts back in the parts bin. It's funny, Drs. F&S (my new friend) has a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee and exactly the same price.
Listen, I'm a business owner. I never raised my voice on the phone. I simply said, that's fine I'll find my new pump elsewhere. I just thought someone might think customer satisfaction is important. There's a hundred guys that do what I do and If my work doesn't coincide with my customers expectations, I keep coming back until it does. I care that they're happy and that is called customer service and that's why I'm busy.
I'm also waiting for the Tunze shipment, know why?
Roger at Tunze cares that his customers are satisfied. I like that.

[kiknchikn]

I definitely understand your point of view and I agree with you for most of it. But you lost me with "Unfortunately, my LFS sells only MJ's and I have no idea what works unless I try it".

That kind of implies to me that you expect to be able to return things based solely on a product not doing what you thought it would do, which isn't a store's responsibility. You're responsible for knowing what you should get. That's why I suggest you go see the pumps in action. There's bound to be a reef club or a store with more a knowledgeable staff within a reasonable driving distance in NY. I'm sure you'll find a pump that is quiet enough and powerful enough to get the job done that way without having to pay the price of a tunze.

[Bebo77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9113482#post9113482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kiknchikn
I think you're being a little unreasonable. You can't expect a company to let you buy things, open them, use them, and then send them back if you don't like them at no cost to you. I've never encountered a business that allows that, and I suspect that any that does won't be around very long in an industry as competitive as this one.
).


drs FS does that... Costco does that.. its a MD policy.. one that i think sucks as well.... ill pay for return shipping but atleast take the items back...

[owsi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9155613#post9155613 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bebo77
drs FS does that... Costco does that.. its a MD policy.. one that i think sucks as well.... ill pay for return shipping but atleast take the items back...
I have never had a problem MD did not take care of, but I would also not want or expect them to give test drives. Then either costs would go up or they would be selling me something someone else has had. If you are not familar with the characteristics of a product you should buy it at your LFS. It will cost more but they should demo and explain its features to you. I do not want to pay for someone else changing their mind, nor do I want something someone else has tried and sent back.

[kiknchikn]

I guess I just strongly feel it is YOUR responsibility to be an informed buyer BEFORE you buy a product. You can't expect a store to flip the bill for your mistakes.

[Bebo77]

what ever happened to the customer is always right...? MD is the only place where you can not try something and return it because you did not like it.. i would like to see retail stores say.. did you try it? well then we can not take it back.. Pshhhh.. besides MD is not that much cheaper then Drs but Drs return policy is SOOO much better.

OWSI i purchased a heater from MD that heated my old tank to 90 degress ( heater set to 77) what did MD say?.. sorry we will send you a new one and please return the one you have.. no they said well we have to test it and if it works we will send it back to you? WHAT! i dont want it back... i called the mfg and they simply said.. what any good vendor would say.. A new one is being sent to you please return the bad one in the box with the attached return shipping label.. end of story


MD is one of the largest online dry goods vendors. I dont see them taking HUGE losses on returns.. costco walmart kmart all seem to be doing fine with a no hassle return policy.

[Bebo77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9156594#post9156594 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kiknchikn
I guess I just strongly feel it is YOUR responsibility to be an informed buyer BEFORE you buy a product. You can't expect a store to flip the bill for your mistakes.


how do you know you like something without trying it then? and even with a well informed decision.. i cant change my mind?

[kiknchikn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9156724#post9156724 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bebo77
how do you know you like something without trying it then? and even with a well informed decision.. i cant change my mind?

Changing your mind AFTER you open it and decide you don't want a product that is functioning fine because it doesn't do exactly what you wanted it to is not the same as wanting to return a broken or dysfunctional item. If that is a store's policy what's to stop someone from buying every single product the store sells, trying them all, and then returning what they don't want?

I definitely don't like the fact MD states they need to check the product for defects before they refund your money, but I'm sure that policy is the direct result of too many shoppers wanting to return perfectly fine products because THEY made a mistake.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the responsibilities of stores ;)

[1sleeper]

For the record, I went way out of my way to inform myself on this eheim pump. Search and read any discussion on RC and you will find the 1260 being pushed over the 1262. Every eheim advocate says the eheim is silent and pumps much more than it is rated for. I found these statements to be false with my pump so I am dissatisfied. I threw an impeller in my mag and put it back on, same noise as the 1260 with more flow. I'll use the eheim to water cool my computer or transfer liquids in the shop. So here's my sound advice on MD. If you plan on taking RC members advice on products, don't buy it from MD.

[owsi]

You will be doing us a favor in helping keep our prices down if everyone follows that advice. RC has a lot of good info, but as in this issue, I might feel a pump is quite, you might not get the same impression. As I said before, if you dont know, go to your LFS, they will demo a pump, help you set it up, ect.

[1sleeper]

My LFS only sells MJ's and Mag Drives.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9156685#post9156685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bebo77
i would like to see retail stores say.. did you try it? well then we can not take it back.. Pshhhh..

I don't know what lfs's you live near, but opening a lighting set-up or skimmer or pump and using it pretty much means it's yours in PA.

Not saying i wouldn't appreciate it if they did, but they usually don't.

[1sleeper]

14 posts and not one from MD. Drs. F&S answer EVERY post.

[kiknchikn]

MD has it's own somewhat successful forum (http://forum.marinedepot.com), so I doubt they surf RC very often. You could try posting your complaint there if you want a response...

[1sleeper]

They post almost every day here, they just don't respond to negative comments. To get a reply, you have to put a "thumbs up" starting your thread. I'm not stuck on bashing MD, just informing customers of their carefree attitude after the sale. If MD would have at least posted acknowledgement, it probable would have ended. I just bought my new return pump, two Koralia PH's, phosban, salt, etc., this am at Drs. F&S and the service and support is unbelievable compared to MD. I'm done here, have to go give Drs. F&S two thumbs over there.

[RobbyG]

When you buy over the net, most times you save money, that savings has a trade off, in that you don't have the ability to take it home and try it then return it like you could at a regular store. One always has to be very careful when buying over the net. I can't tell you how many times I have bought stuff on Amazon.com and found it not to be what I expected. I just blame it on myself for not being 100% educated about the product before purchasing it.

[Bergovoy]

noise is an arbitrary issue, flow is not. If md has the means to determine if the flow is per specifications, loet them test it and submit the test results.

But I agree, that no matter what, buying things andfinding out you dont like it is is a fact of life, and a business with any consideration towards its customers would understand that, and accept it as a cost of doing business.

MD is by far not the cheapest store in the world. They are not doing anyone a favor by way of their so called low prices. Thier prices are the same as everyone else.

Everyone else allow for customer satisfaction, md does not.

And like I stated in other threads, when it truly would not cost md to take care of thier customers, and yet they still deny them, opens them up to criticsm like this and more.

MD could have simply retd the item to the mfg under the same guise as other stores do, '...customer not satisfied...' and get credit or replacment.

Does this add to the cost of mfg another pump, no. Is this wasted money, not really, considering alienation of customer is way more costly.

Should companies or mfgs anticipate losses like this, YES, just like they should anticipate unusable items that fail thier own quality control measures. Is that anticipation accurate? Maybe it is and maybe it is over estimated.

All in all, it is a cost of doing GOOD business.

Looking for a successfull business plan by only selling one product to a customer and never doing business with that customer will never succeed. Word of mouth and repat business is the only recipe for success.

I truly doubt md will survive in the long run due to thie continued poor satisfaction policies. and although I would never wish ill towards anyone or to any entity, I do not want md to survive with thier policies as they are.

And not to bring my case to this thread, thier policy threatened the life and health of my MARINE habitats, and I feel it innapropriate for a company to be named MARINE depot when it is clear that thier condsiderations for the MARINE life in my or anyones tanks is second to thier policy, should not be allowed to use that name.

Bill

[owsi]

LMAO, this is unreal

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9303342#post9303342 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bergovoy
noise is an arbitrary issue, flow is not. If md has the means to determine if the flow is per specifications, loet them test it and submit the test results.

Real research is hard work and some time browsing and searching google. The fact is that there is enough information out there to determine if the pumps are equivalent, in this case it is clear they are not:
At 6 ft head the 7 gives 400 gph while the eheim 300 so one is 33% larger than the other at that pressure.
Eheim 1260:
http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/eheim1060_curve.jpg
Mag Drive 7:
http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/mag7_curve.jpg

[JohnnyM2]

MD is a big purchaser of aquarium supplies and has the ability to negotiate a certain percentage of returns with their suppliers. Suppliers are used to this and figure it as part of their cost. MD is just being cheap and uncooperative. Find another company to deal with. The net is full of them and some even have lower prices. Bet the Drs F&S will even match MD's price and still give you better service.

[owsi]

How would you feel if someone test drove the homes you built, because they changed thier mind?

[sjm817]

On a technical standpoint, I have owned both a Mag7 and an Eheim 1260. The 1260 has a ton more flow than a Mag7 and is far quieter. Others who have owned both have had the same experience. To me, this means either a) your 1260 is defective. b) something in your plumbing setup is very restrictive so that you dont see the improvement. BTW, those graphs are bunk IME.

On MD return polocy, IME, I dont like it. I ran into the probem a couple of times and decided to use a different vendor that has a better customer service.

[Bergovoy]

seems like md has a reputation and that I did not bring anything new to the table.

[RobbyG]

I just love how this one just slides past the argument. Here is clear proof that the Mag 7 is indeed a more powerful pump than the ehiem. This is exactly the kind of research one needs to do before making an online purchase.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9303676#post9303676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jdieck
Real research is hard work and some time browsing and searching google. The fact is that there is enough information out there to determine if the pumps are equivalent, in this case it is clear they are not:
At 6 ft head the 7 gives 400 gph while the eheim 300 so one is 33% larger than the other at that pressure.
Eheim 1260:
http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/eheim1060_curve.jpg
Mag Drive 7:
http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/pumps/mag7_curve.jpg

[jdieck]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9305465#post9305465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817
On a technical standpoint, I have owned both a Mag7 and an Eheim 1260. The 1260 has a ton more flow than a Mag7 and is far quieter. Others who have owned both have had the same experience. To me, this means either a) your 1260 is defective. b) something in your plumbing setup is very restrictive so that you dont see the improvement. BTW, those graphs are bunk IME.

On MD return polocy, IME, I dont like it. I ran into the probem a couple of times and decided to use a different vendor that has a better customer service.
There has been reports of different specifications, one claimed the Ehim being a 620 max flow and 12' max head while others being 600 max flow and 10 Max head.
I really do not know what the diference is but it seems that some of the 1260 were the original 1060s, another difference in the spec may come from the pump being designed to run at European AC under 50 Hz. If running in US current at 60 Hz the pump, although may overheat a little will run at about 20% higher rpm which might account for the ramped up specifications.
In any case when I see dual specs like this and as you do not know what you will get I have to asume that I could get the lower of both.
Now having said that I have run Mags and Eheims on my periferals and I could say that if mounted properly both are noiseless. Quality wise I think the engineering on the Eheims is better but the Mags are constructed like work horses.

[1sleeper]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9303917#post9303917 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owsi
How would you feel if someone test drove the homes you built, because they changed thier mind?

Owsi, aside from being a childish taunt, that is one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read. What does someone buying a $200,000 home changing their mind have to do with MD not wanting my possibly defective $130 pump back without hoops and hurdles. I imagine if I had to pay $2000 / 360 months for that eheim that statement wouldn't be so ridiculous or "unbelievable" as you so elequently said in your prior post.

RobbyG, I did my research but the answers were as clear as the discussion here. All users of eheim claimed higher than posted outputs and most recommended the 1260. Do a search for eheim 1260 and you will learn the same as I did. Believe me, this is not a "lack of research" issue. My research habits and thirst for knowledge border obsessive.

[owsi]

Childish taunt, to you, to me people like you make costs go up. Everybody wants somebody else to eat the loss, if you feel its defective send it back, I am sure MD will do the right thing. Whats the difference between a $200K home and a $130 pump, if its not deffective who eats the loss? It gets passed on to the customer base, I don't like you enough to support you mind changeing or not really sure if its deffective costs. I don't buy that much from F&S because they don't carry the things I need and those they do are usualy higher. So please go there and take advantage of thier exchange policies, I'll stick with MD.

[Bergovoy]

Your assumption is that the item is not defective nor living up to its specifications.

It is quite possible that the pump is not performing per its specifications, and that is that. fairly straight forward.

Accountiblity has a price, testing it to determine if it is or isnt defective has a price, losing customers has a price, even making too much profit has a price.

The issue is did the company anticipate sufficient costs for customer issues like this, as a "COST OF DOING BUSINESS"

If they did not anticipate sufficiently this time, they will have the opportunity to adjust that estimate nexst time, assuming they still ahve a customer base, or if they alienated them by trying to avoid a no cost issue and stand on policy

MD is not a mfg, they are a reseller. Ifthey get a return, they return it top the mfg, (or negotiate ex amount of returns as part of thier cost or purchaseof the equipment originally)

It costs them nothing to return the pump to the mfg. It will cost them at least one customer if they try to avoid having to deal with the issue or customer.

[30reef]

I believe I have spent enough money at MD to keep them going for a while. (many multiple thousands of dollars) In fact, I am awaiting a shipment from them in a few days. I have never had a problem with returns or anything.
I think maybe your pump needs some time to "wear" itself in. And there is the possibility that your plumbing may have something to do with your noise/flow issues. The Ehiem pumps are by far the quietest on the market. I know of some Tunze pumps which were noisy at first, Roger's advice was to let it run for a week or so before condemning it.
As for MD, they have their feet wet in the wholesale end of the business also. Chances are, if you go to your LFS and buy a pump or whatever, they got it from MD...

[RobbyG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9312902#post9312902 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bergovoy

It costs them nothing to return the pump to the mfg. It will cost them at least one customer if they try to avoid having to deal with the issue or customer.

I will agree with that, my wife has a store and she just puts the returned items in a sorted pile. When the supplier comes with his next shipment she subtracts the returning items from the Arrivals and pays for the difference. You can of course only do this for a small amount of each item and she also has to know for sure that the item is defective. In this case, yes MD could probably get it changed free of charge but they would be asking the Manufacturer for a favour since the pump does work.

[owsi]

And of course this is all free right, lol, the manufactorer does not add any cost to the product for returns due to changed minds.

[Bergovoy]

Of course they do. do you think the cost of the product equals manufacturing cost alone??

R&D, Shrinkage, (which by the way is the biggest loss issue), damaged items due to handling or shipping, defective items discovered during mfg with quality control, and somewhere in the mix is discretionary, for customer satisfaction issues.

Again, the cost of the product vs the cost of a lost customer, at some point there is a balance, sometimes it works in thier favor sometimes it dont. Who are you to say they exceeded thier quota or that they could afford one less customer?
that is thier business, thier decision.

But basically, it is common practice for a customer to be able to buy something and be totally satisfied or your money back.

And I dont think this case is just a mtter of a changed mind but rather one that the pump does not meet thier understanding of what it is supposed to be capable of.

And with the lack of indipendent and standardized testing among every pump mfg, and no true way to accurately compare one mfgs performance chart and data compared to another mfgs data, it ultmately comes down to CUSTOMER SATISFACTION.

So, rather then arguing a discretionary or arbitrary decision, you seem to just argue for the sake of arguing.


Your point has been heard, it has been discussed, and the issues are still the same. Each business shouls anticipate ALL costs involved to determine the value of thier product. If they do so porperly, they stand a better chance of covering thier costs in the price of the product.

Alos, it should be noted that only on rare occasions does the cost of the product relate to the cost of the item. Usually the price is determined by what the market will bear to pay fo r that product.

Also, what if the mfg has a run opf bad luck, and thier mfg process screws up and they ruin a very big batch of parts for the pump, (more then they anticipatetd), are they going to increase the costs of teh next batch to compensate for that error? Would they fire the employee that screwed up and typed a +1 instead of a minus 1 into the CNC mill? (and if they do, will they incur more cost training a new employee? and will that also increase the cost of the remaining items?)\

And since yo do not know what the actual cost for mfg and distribution of that product most of your discussion is moot. And to prove that, dont you find it too coincedental that although there are drastically differernt designs in different pumps yet, most pumps cost about the same? Really, how coincedental could it be that the mfg for a mag pump would be comprable to an eheim, or a Dart compared to an iwaki?

So, again, your point is heard, you dont believe that any customer should be able to return any item as long as the item performs close to how it is suggested per it's own marketing literature proposes. And if it is returned for some reason other then that, it will increase the cost of the remaining stock and inventory from the mfg.

In theory you are correct, in reality you are not.

[RobbyG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9315862#post9315862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by owsi
And of course this is all free right, lol, the manufacturer does not add any cost to the product for returns due to changed minds.

No, that assumes the product is DOA. but most of the time they will allow one or two good returns to be slipped in, if we explain circumstances etc. They do this to keep good relations with us, so we can keep certain regular customers happy.

[lakerfan]

Hi Folks,

We appreciate the feedback you have provided us. While our return policies have been sufficient for most of our customers in the past, we realize that changes are needed to accomodate others. We are in the process of reviewing our returns guidelines and the feedback is valuable. As soon as we have the new guidelines set, we will let you know. We work closely with our vendors in providing you all the best products at affordable prices. We also provide as much information as possible online and via phone so returns may not have to happen. As stated by others here, costs will be taken into account when reviewing returns as well as many other factors including customer satisfaction.

Thank you all for your support. We look forward to helping you with any of your hobby needs.

Happy Reefing!

Ben R.
Director of Operations
www.marinedepot.com/ www.marinedepotlive.com

[JohnnyM2]

owsi, are you prone to non-sequiturs?

[RicksReefs]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9313060#post9313060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 30reef
Chances are, if you go to your LFS and buy a pump or whatever, they got it from MD...


uhhh, no.
no LFS is going to support an online competitor.

[owsi]

JohnnyM2, No, just feel a return policy should be for defects not mood swings. MD would have credited if product was defective, seems the cust. didn't have confidence it was. We all bear the the price of the "New Expectations" in cust service in our society, look at the cost of health insurance, Dr.s are not totaly responcible for the cost, most of your premium goes to malpractice insurance. Retail is the same, cust. service and longer hours have increased overhead/price's. I feel we need to take responcibilty for our actions.

[RobbyG]

Returns are for Defects only, but a good retailer knows when to bend the rules and let something slide. It's a careful balancing act because you don't want the public to know that it can be bent.
When we bend them we tell the customer its an extra special favour because they are a valued customer and please don't let anybody know or I would be in trouble ;)

[1sleeper]

Owsi, you call my not wanting a noisy pump a mood swing? ANOTHER childish taunt? Go argue with your kids and leave me alone. We figured out you were in bed with MD your very first post. It took MD almost a month to reply. You want to know why? Damage control. The last thing they want is this getting any more hits. This statement must have really ****ed Owsi off. It means their prices are going up along with healthcare, daycare, and insurance. It's all my fault.
" While our return policies have been sufficient for most of our customers in the past, we realize that changes are needed to accomodate others. We are in the process of reviewing our returns guidelines and the feedback is valuable. As soon as we have the new guidelines set, we will let you know."
They lost a valuable costumer in me. In my eyes the $130 pump was cheap compared to the problems I have been reading from other MD consumers. If that pump had lived up to all the hype, I wouldn't have found Dr. F&S. When I drop a dime over there, they say "thanks, did everything work properly and arrive alive?"
How is that not better than a kick in the balls?

[owsi]

Have a nice day. :)