Sump Design

[cskollmann]

Hi,

I inherited a 54 gallon corner from a friend who was moving away. It currently has a HOB skimmer and no sump. I would like to add a sump, but space in the stand is very limited. I was thinking I could put the sump in its own cabinet beside and below the tank, and would like to get some advice on sump design from the experts. I thought a 40 breeder might be a nice size that I could also keep when I eventually upgrade the tank to 75 or 90 gallons. I will have to use an external siphon overflow, as the tank is not drilled. Is Lifereef generally considered the best?

I doodled this up as a starting point, please feel free to rip it apart and tell me everything that is wrong with it.

One question I have is what depth to make the skimmer section, I can't find anything about how deep the Octupus NS-200 needs to be.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/142151Slide1.JPG

Thanks very much,
Chris

[jer77]

Welcome to Reefcentral first of all! It looks like you've done your homework on this. Looks like a good plan. One thing that comes to mind is the water that overflows from your fuge might make some bubbles depending on how far it drops, but it looks like it will only be around 2'' so it should be fine. You may want to make some sort of cuts in the plexiglass too on the top to make sure stuff stays in the fuge thats supposed to. I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Like whats on a normal overflow in a tank so fish don't get sucked into the sump. You may not need the first 14'' baffle too, but it might be a good idea to keep stuff out of the skimmer area that might get sucked in. I don't know about the octopus skimmers either, but its necessary to know how deep it should be. I like the idea of the 40 breeder cause its what I have on my 40 gal frag tank. It will allow for a nice fuge.

[aquarius77]

Seems the bubble trap is backwards to me. Would it not make more sense to have the first baffel elevated and then the second one flush with the bottom and then the third one elevated?
That way the bubbles have a chance to rise in the skimmer section as water is being drawn from the bottom, also, they will have a chance to rise in the bubble trap itself as water is being drawn from the bottom again.

[CTS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9112047#post9112047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquarius77
Seems the bubble trap is backwards to me. Would it not make more sense to have the first baffel elevated and then the second one flush with the bottom and then the third one elevated?
That way the bubbles have a chance to rise in the skimmer section as water is being drawn from the bottom, also, they will have a chance to rise in the bubble trap itself as water is being drawn from the bottom again.

I will second that, Looks like a good setup other wise.

[Shagsbeard]

That's the way bubble traps work. I know it looks backward, but he has it right.

[kfowler]

The bubble trap looks good to me. I like the idea of having the return section in the middle.

Also check out www.melevsreef.com for tons of other sump designs.

[cskollmann]

Thanks guys, for both the welcome and the advice. Jer, I get what you're saying about the refugium, I'm planning to cut teeth into that baffle. Good thought on bubbles from that side too, I had focused on the skimmer section in that regard. Maybe I'll put a bubble trap on both sides of the return section...have to think about that.

As for the bubble trap baffles, the way I drew it seems to be the way that it is most often done, although I agree it seems counterintuitive.

Thanks again,
Chris

[rustybucket145]

I would personally move the return all the way to the right side. Also I don't see the need for the first baffle before the skimmer. Why not just dump the raw water directly into the skimmer chamber and eliminate the far left baffle altogether?

Also, I would HIGHLY suggest incorporating some true Unions in your design. I don't really know how to explain it so I'll just post an image of a sump I designed that has the unions located on the drawing.

http://www.buddyscampfire.com/meshModImages/sump.jpg

[cskollmann]

I can see that the first baffle may not be necessary. The reasons I originally included it were to provide a place for carbon if I want to add it and to provide more volume in the sump since the skimmer section will have to have lower baffles.

As far as moving the return to the right, I did consider that. The reason I think I want the center return is so that the refugium can have a lower flow rate than the rest of the sump. By teeing off the return to both the refugium and back into the return, I think I can adjust the flow so that I end up with around 200-250 gph going back to the tank, but with a much lower rate in the refugium. Does that make sense?

What are true Unions, exactly? What do they do?

Thanks,
Chris

[rustybucket145]

Unions allow you to easily seperate pipes...... so say you need to remove your pump for cleaning, all you would have to do is unscrew the union with your hand and the pump would be free from the pipe. If , however, you didn't have a union it would be a major pain to get the pump out of the sump without having to cut the pvc pipe.

On the flow, I'm following what your saying and yes it does make sense. But.... I'm a very big fan of having quite a bit of flow going through the fuge portion. Your sump will handle the flow fine and so will your main tank. With your bubble trap you shouldn't have any bubbles to worry about so why not pump the flow through it?

Some of the healthiest fuges I've seen have a tremendous amount of water flowing through them. I personally have 750gph going through my 40gal fuge and the pods are super thick on the glass and rocks.

So I say move your return to the right, crank that pump up and let her rip!! You paid good money for that pump, if you wanted less flow you should have gone with a mag 5 and saved a few dollars.

Also, forgot to mention before but you're gonna really need to valve the tank overflow and the return line. Pay close attention how I have the valve/union relationship on the diagram I posted.

[aquarius77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9114178#post9114178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rustybucket145
Pay close attention how I have the valve/union relationship on the diagram I posted.

You have ball valves on the intakes of the pumps, restricting the intake of a pump is something you should never do because it can burn up the pump.

[cskollmann]

Unions allow you to easily seperate pipes...... so say you need to remove your pump for cleaning, all you would have to do is unscrew the union with your hand and the pump would be free from the pipe. If , however, you didn't have a union it would be a major pain to get the pump out of the sump without having to cut the pvc pipe.

Ah, yes. I understand and agree. I didn't draw them in, or know the right terminology, but I definitely plan to include them.

Having a higher flow through the refugium seems to contradict most of what I've read. I'll have to think and research more I guess. I thought I read that a slower flow over the sand bed allowed for better denitrification?

So I say move your return to the right, crank that pump up and let her rip!! You paid good money for that pump, if you wanted less flow you should have gone with a mag 5 and saved a few dollars.

Well, I haven't actually purchased anything yet, still in the planning stages. I'm not married to the Mag7 at all. I may go with an Eheim 1260 or PanWorld 40PX-MD20R instead, running plumbed. Any advice on that would also be appreciated.

Also, forgot to mention before but you're gonna really need to valve the tank overflow and the return line. Pay close attention how I have the valve/union relationship on the diagram I posted.[

Yes, thank you. I will plan cutoff valves throughout.

Chris

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9115734#post9115734 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquarius77
You have ball valves on the intakes of the pumps, restricting the intake of a pump is something you should never do because it can burn up the pump.

i think its to stop the water form dripping out of the pipe when you separate the pipes, and not for reducing the intake water

[aquarius77]

Ahh i see, VERY interesting and very cool idea. Thank you for explaining that to me!

[davocean]

Mags tend to run warm and a little loud.
I remember seeing some complaints about panworld, but can't remember what.
I just got an Eheim 1262, very quiet, runs fairly cool.
Fostersmith has Oceanrunners on sale right now, that may be another good option for you.
Also quiet and cool.