Crosshatch trigger Bluethroat HYBRID???

[alikatoes]

Anyone ever hear of a Crosshatch/Bluethroat? I think I have one but I'm not too sure. I will post picture later.

[triggerfish1976]

I have never heard of this but trigger hybrids are not well documented. Please post a pic!

[jpslickorocks]

Yes Pics please

[rayman45]

picc

[matter1331]

if it's the one that's in your avatar it sure as heck looks like a hybrid. The fins and face appear to be a bluethroat while the tail and body look like a pink tail, very interesting looking fish.

[triggerfish1976]

Thats a male crosshatch in his avatar.

[matter1331]

ah, I'm not too familiar with triggers, beautiful fish

[rayman45]

WHERE IS THE PICCCCC

[alikatoes]

Hey trigger 1976, I like your avatar better. Thats the pic. I have as my wallpaer on my desktop. I hope to catch one some day but thats a whole nother ball game.

Anyway, I am waiting for a friend to bring a camera to my house. As soon as we get a pic I will send it off. The most noticable diff. is slightly diff scale pattern, different color caudal fin (orange rather than red) and a few other differences on the face markings. In all possibilty it could be a large (10in) female that just decided she wants to be a male. Perhaps I just caught her before the transformation is complete. Either way it has several other moderately experienced fish people confused.

[triggerfish1976]

If you catch one try and find another one for me:lol:
I was actually thinking the same thing about the color change but either way I am looking forward to the pic. I actually had a pair of crosshatch triggers for a while and they were by the far the most attractive triggers IMOP.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e151/triggerfish1976/DSC01021.jpg

[giller]

I also have a pair and this is very intriguing to me as well. I sort of pictured it as being a male crosshatch with a blues throat, yellow tail and a darker green coloration. Cant wait to see the pick. I am also suprised that one has not been observed sooner since the bluethroat appears to be quite similar to the female sex of the crosshatch. I can only think of equating it to the holy grail of tangs (achilles/gold rim hybrid) if this is infact a hybrid.

[alikatoes]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9182450#post9182450 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976
If you catch one try and find another one for me:lol:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e151/triggerfish1976/DSC01021.jpg

It will be a little while before I can go that deep. Where did you get your Crosshatch and that masked angel? I havent heard of anyone catching a masked in quite awhile. We took some pics today, will post tonight or tommrow.

[triggerfish1976]

I got the Crosshatches from a online vendor. The Angel pic is just a photo I found on the net. I would really love to have one and had a chance to get a pair last year but they tend to need cooler tanks for long term survival so I passed.

[TandN]

lol Alika most of my fish are form you ;)

[RGBMatt]

OK, here are the pictures:

http://www.aloha.net/~the_matt/mahu_xhatch1.jpg

http://www.aloha.net/~the_matt/mahu_xhatch2.jpg

Apologies for the bad quality - the fish wasn't in the mood to sit still for the camera!

Anyhow, you can see what made us think it might be a hybrid - the tail is orange rather than red, and the spots on each scale are short vertical bars instead of little blue dots.

When we caught this fish, the rim of its tail was bright yellow. That was two weeks ago, and during that period it's darkened considerably and is starting to look pretty red. After looking at it more carefully this afternoon, I think it was just a female crosshatch that was starting to turn male when we caught it.

The idea of a crosshatch/bluethroat hybrid makes a lot of sense, though - they are fairly closely related, and since one species is very rare on this island it you'd expect them to interbreed from time to time.

[triggerfish1976]

I agree with your assessment. It is deffinately a male crosshatch trigger at this stage but it is still very interesting that you were able to witness the sex change.

[alikatoes]

we will continue to hold it to see if it finishes the change. If it does not then we will find out what it is and let yall know. If I was a betting man I would put my money on female changing into male.

[cthetoy]

Nice trigger. How large is it by the way?

[alikatoes]

About 10inches, maybe a little bigger.

[Wolverine]

I'd agree that it's probably just a sex change.

Dave

[alikatoes]

Its strange that the body color still seems rather bland. The other large male crosshatch I have are kind of golden, but this specimen is more greyish. PErhaps thats the last visible difference of the sexes...

[alikatoes]

I caught another one a few days ago, and I think it looks more like a hybrid. The jaw seems to be a little more blue. Several others still think its a sex change but I am starting to lean a little more twords hybrid now. We have asked some local fish experts what they think, and they are indeed not yet documented. We will be taking the newest specimen to a pro and see what he thinks. I will try get more pics out soon.

[copps]

I've seen some pics too of these guys where a few have been collected recently... you guys are doing the right thing... Let me know what good old John Randall has to say! ;) If you have to donate one to science it'll be in the right hands! :)

Until then it's all speculation... but you guys are lucky that the foremost expert also lives on your little island, and is only "half-retired" :D

Exciting stuff though!

[alikatoes]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=205481


This is the "throat" of the potential hybrid.

[akwtampa]

You may want to double-check this, but there is an LFS in Tampa the gets all of thier stock from a diver in HI and he recently identified a trio of odd looking triggers as a crosshatch/bluethroat hybrid.. I think they even named it after him..

the LFS is called "Finz".. FWIW

[alikatoes]

I didnt know Hybrid's recieved new names. Is he qualified to make such a judgement, or did he have someone else look at it for him? I can only think of one other diver here that catches Crosshatch in any decent quantity, I will ask him. See if you could get some pictures of the trio or some info from whoever has them now.

[copps]

Keep us updated Alika... exciting stuff!

[jmaneyapanda]

yeah, I unfortunately think this may be a case of a collector trying to make some additional $$$. It may or may not be a hybrid, but just looking at it is certainly no way for anyone to determine it, especially in a reasonable unstudied combination.

We shall see, keep us updated.

[Wolverine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9409015#post9409015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
yeah, I unfortunately think this may be a case of a collector trying to make some additional $$$. It may or may not be a hybrid, but just looking at it is certainly no way for anyone to determine it, especially in a reasonable unstudied combination.

We shall see, keep us updated.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not completely convinced based on those pics that this is truly a hybrid.

Dave

[jmaneyapanda]

I guess more the point I was trying to nmake is that pictures are such a bad way of determining hybrids. Field biologists and rearch biologist should be assessing data to determine this, not hobbyists or collectors.

[brad23]

great job, keep us updated

[alikatoes]

I'm planning on taking it to a credited Ichthyologist, I just wanted to see if anyone here has ever heard of it or seen something like it.

[freedive43]

According to Dr. Randall, there have been no "documented" cases of any trigger changing sex. Also, he is only aware of one other hybrid trigger - in Indonesia I believe (not a crosshatch). The only way to truly determine the origin of the fish is to take a DNA sample. Until then, everything is just curiosity and speculation.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9424229#post9424229 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by freedive43
According to Dr. Randall, there have been no "documented" cases of any trigger changing sex. Also, he is only aware of one other hybrid trigger - in Indonesia I believe (not a crosshatch). The only way to truly determine the origin of the fish is to take a DNA sample. Until then, everything is just curiosity and speculation.

Well get to it Rufus! :p Whether it's a hyrbid or a sex change... it's history... good work fellas...

John

[jmicky41]

Has this fish been sold to a Midwestern LFS? I saw a listing for "what our collector claims to be a" crosshatch trigger hybrid.

[freedive43]

Two specimens entered the trade comercially within the past month. one was sent to a pet store in chicago - if that is the LFS you were talking about. However, I would like to reiterate that we made no claim that the fish is a hybrid - only speculation.

[zemuron114]

heres a thread a while ago that had a crosshatch change in captivity (although it looks to be a changing male already) but it completed the sex change

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1051134

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9424234#post9424234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Well get to it Rufus! :p Whether it's a hyrbid or a sex change... it's history... good work fellas...

John

Unless its just a weird colored standard crosshatch.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9434443#post9434443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Unless its just a weird colored standard crosshatch.

What I meant was that whatever the finding is it'll be history... I've spoken with the guys out there about these... it's been a few specimens, not just one, and even it's just a weird standard crosshatch they've never been documented before and that would still be history.

Also, these collectors are going about it the right way and not just in it for the money. They're in contact with the foremost icthyologist in these matters who happens to be on the same island and as freedive said they are just speculating at this point, leaving the final determination to the people most suited to make it.

Copps

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9415500#post9415500 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
I guess more the point I was trying to nmake is that pictures are such a bad way of determining hybrids. Field biologists and rearch biologist should be assessing data to determine this, not hobbyists or collectors.

I agree. There are way to many designer names being slapped on odd ball fish and corals just so they can charge 10 x more than the animal is actually worth.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9434717#post9434717 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
What I meant was that whatever the finding is it'll be history... I've spoken with the guys out there about these... it's been a few specimens, not just one, and even it's just a weird standard crosshatch they've never been documented before and that would still be history.

Also, these collectors are going about it the right way and not just in it for the money. They're in contact with the foremost icthyologist in these matters who happens to be on the same island and as freedive said they are just speculating at this point, leaving the final determination to the people most suited to make it.

Copps

I know, Im just being a jerk- as usual. I think we're all on the same page. There is no way for any of us to look at a picture, or a fish, or a video, or whatever, and simply say- yeah, that's a hybrid of A and B. Particularly with such unstudied specimens. Much more analysis much go into it. ANd it may turn out to be a hybrid! I am not saying it is impossible. I am just saying there are far too many claims of such without validation.

Let me (harmlessly) ask this- seeing all the "hybrids" available for purchase in the recent few years- why are these hybridizations so plentiful? We dont see natural hybridizations frequently at all with terrestrial species- so why so frequent with aquatic? Especially considering we get such a small and limited view of the ocean life? I find it rather hard to digest that species A and species B would spend however many thousands and thousands of years evolving to be different, to suddenly revert back, and start hybridizing. Perhaps it is due to human involvement, or natural disaster, or similar, but just to happen?- its a hard pill for me to swallow. Just my opinion though, take it will a jug of salt.

[alikatoes]

I'm not really positive, but I would assume that marine fish would have higher rates of hybridizations because of the way they reproduce. Broadcast spawners shoot thier eggs and sperm into the water column and depend on chemical attractions to find each other and fertilize. Species that are relatively close on the evolutionary tree (crosshatch/bluethroat= Xanthichthys) probably have similar chemicals to attract/deter sperm/eggs. I would also think that proximity of habitat would play a role. Maybe if spawning events happen around the same time and in the same area, the eggs/sperms have much less dilution from the ocean. It would be interesting to compare air broadcast spawing plants or insects, as far as hybridization.

I cannot say that anything above is fact, just mere observation of a diver and fish keeper. The truth is that I am really hoping its a hybrid, not only because of increased value but because I could say that I was one of (freedive43's the other) the collectors to show this possibility to the world. I am willing to accept the fact that it may not be a hybrid, but right now its a dream thats waiting to be credited or discredited. Either way it was a learning experience.

As far as you saying "all these hybrids popping up", a local diver just found an amazing (possibly new) hybrid. It is much more obvious than my trigger hybrid. I wont say what but keep your eyes open for a thread. Very cool stuff. Its a dream for all of us.

[pactrop]

Alikatoes is right. There were 4 hybrid flame angel x potter angels found in Hawaii. all in the same year and never again. One was caught as a juvi and two weeks later another was caught at another location That was two weeks farther in development than the first. Another was later caught on a different island all together. Which makes Alika's theory sound pretty sound.

Congrats guys. I am crossing my fingers for you.

Here is the thread on the Centropyge potteri x fisheri.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1067048

[jmaneyapanda]

Wait a minute- how is this a confirmed hybrid? Just because it looks different?

Your observations kinda fuel my fire here. If the gametes of the two "species"is so attracted to one another, why have these species differentiated? This process would've occurred millions of times of the past million years to create a seperate species, not a periodic hybrid. What caused such phylogenetically similar animals to ever split off the evolutionary branch then?

True natural hybrids are a very rare and unusual thing, becuase that is how nature works.

[ClamIAm]

Here is a possible explanation for the high number of hybrids found...maybe they aren't actually different species, just different color variations of the same that may be moving towards speciation. I don't know how much genetic testing has been done on things like Xanthichthys triggers, but I'm guessing there hasn't been an in-depth study on the genetics of many of these fish to determine how different they are.

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9436166#post9436166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Wait a minute- how is this a confirmed hybrid? Just because it looks different?

Your observations kinda fuel my fire here. If the gametes of the two "species"is so attracted to one another, why have these species differentiated? This process would've occurred millions of times of the past million years to create a seperate species, not a periodic hybrid. What caused such phylogenetically similar animals to ever split off the evolutionary branch then?

True natural hybrids are a very rare and unusual thing, becuase that is how nature works.

That is actually what I first thought when I saw the pics of the angel hybrid. I have seen Coral Beauties with similar coloration but based on what I have heard they have confirmed that the angel is a hybrid.

[jmaneyapanda]

ClamIam- my thoughts also. But, if they are just color variations, then they are not hybrids, they are....just color variations.

Trigger- If this is true, I would like to see it. Again, I am not saying it is impossible, but confirmation is much more than someone saying, "yup, its a hybrid". If it has been confirmed, that is the quickest scientific study Ive ever heard off, the original thread says it wa caught on 3-6-07!

[triggerfish1976]

It is my understanding that they have been caught prior to 3/7 and this was just the most recent speciman but I could be wrong.

[pactrop]

Yeah I am pretty lucky to have the foremost expert on Centropyge live a few miles away from me.

This thread is not about weather the angel is a hybrid.

I believe Alika was looking to see if any hobbyist have seen a female crosshatch change to a male in their tank. Being that probably more hobbyist have had more crosshatches in captivity than any scientists have. I also belive Zemuron cleared that up with his link to someone saying they have had it happen.

If you would like to discuss the validity of the angel please do it on the angels thread not on this one. It is taking away from what Alika is trying to conclude. If you do have issues with the angel being a hybrid because it was done in a few days I am sure you can email Rich Pyle or Jack Randall and tell them that they need to look at it longer.

[freedive43]

triggerfish1976 - you are correct. We have been collecting in an area that has an unusually dense population of crosshatch triggers and Blue Throats living in close proximity. To date we have collected 7 of these triggers in question. Two were sold and the rest are living on our system being fed and under observation. The oldest has been in captivity for just under two months with no apparent signs of color or pattern changes. The reason that I speculate these fish are hybrids and not just undergoing a sex change is because they all have identical coloration. None are more advanced towards full male or female color patterns than the others. If it is true that triggerfish can indeed change sex (which has not been proven), one would expect that if these fish have begun a change, they would be expected to complete the transformation given the proper amount of time. Dr. Randall suggested that if this is the case they should change within a few week's time (as fish like flame wrasse can change sex within as little time as one week).

[triggerfish1976]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9437371#post9437371 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by freedive43
The reason that I speculate these fish are hybrids and not just undergoing a sex change is because they all have identical coloration. None are more advanced towards full male or female color patterns than the others.

Does the overall color tend to lean more toward the male crosshatch or the females? The original pic in this post appears to have male fin and body coloration.

[freedive43]

Unfortunately, the pictures that Alika posted weren't all that clear - I think his fish was a bit fiesty during it's photo op. The fish have yellow trim on their anal and dorsal fins (like BTT's and male crosshatches). Their tails are a definate orange (like the female crosshatches as opposed to the dark pink of the males). Their body color is a darker olive gray like the BTT. They lack a distinct crosshatch pattern. They have blue lines on their face (like crosshatches - BTT's have gray lines). And they all have a bit of a blue chin (in varying amounts). True crosshatches have no blue on their chin at all.

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9437278#post9437278 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pactrop
If you would like to discuss the validity of the angel please do it on the angels thread not on this one. It is taking away from what Alika is trying to conclude. If you do have issues with the angel being a hybrid because it was done in a few days I am sure you can email Rich Pyle or Jack Randall and tell them that they need to look at it longer. [/B]

Yeah, you're right- I'll have to look and see who introduced the topic of this angel into this thread...(smirk) No one is disputing the ability and authority of people like Dr. Pyle or Dr. Randall- least of all me. But I highly doubt they woukld make the proclamation "look at this hybrid angel" without the proper studies. What I am hearing is a second hand report of heresay from these authorities. Once again, I am not disclaiming hybridization- I am just trying to emphasize the importance and necessity of thorough investigation- not just physical appearance = proof.

Freedive- interesting observations. Here is my "objection", if you want to call it that. Your claim goes under the speculation that these triggers will change sex based on the sex changes of wrasses. Is this a logical assumption? We dont know what causes sex change in certain fish, no less in fish that we dont even know if they change sex. It may take triggerfish much longer to change sexes than wrasses, because perhaps they live longer, or mature slower, or whatever. We dont know yet. That being said, very interesting that they all appear to be at the same "development". Such uniformity certainly pushes towrads hybridization theory. I still am quite unimpressed that there are so many in a "local" time period. If these fish could hybridize so easily, they would've become a seperate species, if not a locale morph long ago. Why are we just seeing the beginning of it, if it is speciation? I also am curious to your deliniations of the species- more specifically, what crosshatches are and aren't supposed to look like. I would agree that most species show specific traits, but there is always the possibility of color or pattern mutation. This is far more explainable that abrupt hybridization.

At any rate, I am very interested to learn the outcome. If any of you darned lucky sons-a-b****** who live in Hawaii have a contact for the parties involvd in these determinations, I would love to have you PM me with them.

[pactrop]

bump

[RGBMatt]

Some thoughts:

- Collectors spend most of their day working with fish, and tend to know what they're looking at. Often more so than many scientists, who don't get the same amount of practical experience. Most of us do it because we genuinely like fish, not because we want to make a lot of money. Give us some credit for that.

- Anybody can claim that you can't absolutely prove something, which is true but not always practical. Even now, many people still say that evolution doesn't work based on the same argument.

- There are plenty of marine fish species that hybridize with each other. The same rules that govern reproduction and speciation in terrestrial species don't always apply underwater. Crosshatch/bluethroat hybridization is in fact one of the simplest explanations for the odd colour patterns on these fish.

- It's been over a month now since we caught the first "hybrids", and the one that I posted pictures of still looks the same. I used to think it was a sex change in progress, but now I'm not so sure.

[freedive43]

<I still am quite unimpressed that there are so many in a "local" time period. If these fish could hybridize so easily, they would've become a seperate species, if not a locale morph long ago. Why are we just seeing the beginning of it, if it is speciation? I also am curious to your deliniations of the species- more specifically, what crosshatches are and aren't supposed to look like.>
The simple answer is this. Crosshatch triggers are both uncommon and perfer a deep water habitat. There are very few collectors willing or able to risk their lives to catch them - ask Alika, he's on sick leave right now because of our last crosshatch expedition. With the proper technical diving equipment a few of us have been lucky enough to collect an increasing number of these crosshatches recently. Now that we are collecting ten times the amount of triggers that we were ten years ago gives us increased odds at finding the possible hybrids. It is also possible that a few specimens were collected in the past but overlooked and sold as either female crosshatches or bluethroats. My delineations of the species comes from collecting literally hundreds of crosshatches over the past fifteen years. I heard once that the easiest way to recognize a counterfit bill is to study the real thing and become very familier with it. It's the same with fish.

[zemuron114]

I have seen both "hybrids". the first one looked like a changing male to me, however as matt stated it looks the same now then it did in the beginnng, so im starting to lean at a "hybrid" or mutation. The 2nd one definitely looked more like a hybrid then the first. the fins were much brighter yellow then most crosshatches i have seen (i've seen a lot but not as much as alikatoes/rgbmatt/freedive) And the throat had clear blue patterns unlike any crosshatch i've seen. Even in my relatively inexperienced eyes with crosshatches, it looks very unique and different then the previous ones i had/seen.

Also, im under the impression that triggers (mainly Xanthichthys species) are all female at birth and change into males as the nature needs them. Since they live in harems, if one male dies/gets eaten or captured a female must change to takes its place.

just because a hybrid has never been documented doesn't mean they dont exsist. It is very possibly that a bluethroat and crosshatch would hybridize because they are very similar. Even if this individual specimen isn't a hybrid, i believe there are some out there, just not abundant as other hybrids (most common i think is lemonpeel x vrolki)

[jmaneyapanda]

Hey guys- let me clear the air here a little bit. I think some people may be taking my comments and intentions out of context.

I have great admiration and appreciation for all you guys in Hawaii or wherever that collect fish. I am sure you are great at it, and have no doubts as to your ability and experience. This, I do not question, and if I have given that impression, I apologize.

My comments are meant to be considered from the scientific aspect of these claims. Hybridization is a very technical and scientifically specific thing. As such, I feel it needs to be "proven" empirically. That is, with data and observations that will prove the point. To me, this "data" can be DNA analysis and comparison, or the observations may be copulation or interspecific spawning. Paerhaps you don't agree with this. If this is the case, so be it, we are on different pages, but these are the points I am trying to stress. I dont feel it proper to proclaim a specimen a hybrid unless such "evidence" has been established. In my mind, that would be no more proper than someone claiming they caught a world record size fish, but never measuring it. Sure someone can likely accurately guess the size, and it very well could be a world record, but until that data is there, it shouldn't be considered such. If the data is available on the fish we are discussing, and I have just missed it, then, I again am wrong. But I have not yet seen it. I have only heard second or third hand claims. Please understand- this is my only point. I would like to see the evidence.

RGBMatt- You seem to be a pretty well reknown collector, and I do not doubt your ability or experience. However, I dont feel practical experience in fish husbandry, observation, and capture qualifies you to determine a hybrid any more than me. I genuinely like fish too, and have been a hobbyist for near 15 years also, but this does not disqualify the necessity for such data. I dont feel as if I am asking for impossible data either. If a DNA analysis showed a heterogeneous composition, hey- that's evidence for me! It would be a hybrid. I disagree that hybridization is the simplest explanation for abherrant patterning on a evolutionary basis. Hybridization is not a simple common process. It is a difficult and requires a fair bit of coincidental behavior, where such behavior isn't the norm. Again, not impossible, but rare, nonetheless. To me, such abhorrant patterning is far better explained by genetic mutation in individuals, which then may prolifierate the trait based on environmental advantage. What advantage? I haven't the faintest clue! I am just spitball-guessing! Maybe you would know better than me! But my guess has just as much gusto as your assumption of hybridization, and either can be proved or disproved by the data. That is my only point. To be honest, I hope they are hybrids- it would make for very interesting times.

Freedive- You are certainly correct- diving ability has progressed wonderfully in recent times. So, deeper specimens may be more common now. I guess I didn't make my point well earlier. I was asking, Why are these "hybrids" so common now, in comparison to the total amount of collected, or maybe observed, normal specimens? Someone mentioned they recently caught seven potential hybrids. This number seems staggeringly astonishly high for s species that is relatively uncommon to collection. I may to totally wrong, maybe you guys collect 10 million of these a day- in which case, the frequncy of "hybrids" is much lower, but is this accuarte? How many crosshatches do you guys see, catch, encounter? I am sorry that I made it seem as if I was questioning your fish identification ability. It was not my intentions, so please accept my apology. What I meant to say was, who says that a crosshatch cant have a blue throat? I know it is atypical, and the vast vast majority probably dont, but what makes this the defining character of a hybrid? I have seen bright yellow scopas tangs, which were called color morphs. Why? Why weren't they considered hybrids? And why are the yellow tang hybrids on LiveAquaria now not called color morphs? Where is the distinction?

Zemuron- I agree- just because one hasnt been documented, doesn't mean they dont exist. I am not saying this at all. As I said- I hope these are hybrids, because it opens up a very interesting time in science.

To all you guys- I hope you do not take my comments as attacks, or challenges, but instead as questions. I would love to be convinced that these are hybrids, so if I am not understanding something, please let me know. I am only hoping to engage in freindly discussion, and get your viewpoints, and share mine. Something to understand of me is that I have a strong background in evolutionary biology. And, in my head, evolution is a force that is very very difficult to swim updtream against. My apparent opposition does not come from dislike or negative attitude, but from my understanding of evolutionary processes. It is very hard for me to take at face value that these two seperate species, that have spent millions of years changing to make themselves more different, have now decided that they should be the same species again. It very welll may be possible, but it is hard for me to accept on speculation. I hope you understand my point. Thanks guys- I like you.

[freedive43]

jmaneyapanda, I understand where you're coming from. Originally, I had wanted to refrain from posting anything about these fish until we could confirm exactly what they were. As it happened, a thread was started which quickly became an argument of opinions (since the facts were few). I have an appointment with Dr. Randall this week to run a DNA test from the fish in question. I will be sure to post the results as soon as they become avaliable.

[hawk66]

Any updates yet?

[alikatoes]

Not yet. Still waiting on the DNA test.

[mattyice]

any updates from the DNA test?

[slang]

yeah i want to know.

[alikatoes]

The guy that ran the DNA for us went for a long trip on a research vessel in the South Pacific. I believe hes back but is playing catch up on his tasks, thus no time for extra work. It will be posted when we hear something.

I dont want to stir up anybodys emotions but the following is just an observation of mine, not my decleration of scientifc certainty:
Specimen X. has still not changed coloration on any part of the body. He/she/it is still as we discribed the first time. I can post another picture if anybody is interested but it hasnt changed from the last pic. I posted (not that I can see). I'm sure we can argue that I havent covered all scientific experiments that could determine any possible change in anything, but these are my observations so please just take it as that.

[mattyice]

if you could post another picture or two that would be great

[slang]

i just think it is awsome that you get to swim with these fish in the ocean. It would be great maybe you found a whole new species.