Luan or MDF?

[zmazza]

I'm building a stand for my 29 gallon and 20 gallon tall sump. It's going to have a functional stnad with hopefully 2 cabinet doors, and the canopy is going to have some plywood, mdf, or luan coming off the sides to cover up the back of the tank to completely enclose the tank. I'm wondering what the best material to cover my stand and make my canopy is.

Should I just go with plywood and cover the entire stand? Or would luan or mdf be better? It's going to be made out of 2x4's. I think I'm going to use 1x8's for the canopy though.

Any recommendations?

[30mini]

Plywood. MDF is not recommended at all for stands!

[zmazza]

Really? I've read SEVERAL sites here lately that say MDF is preffered to plywood until you get to 180 gallons. Not sure what they are talking about though. I've bought several aftermarket stands that are made out of MDF too. Plywood, especially oak, is about 40-50 dollars a sheet. Not the cheapest stuff. I've got a big 4x8 piece of 1/2"(?) Luan in my shed that I could use, but not sure how well that would work. I used it when building nesting boxes for parrots.

[kelley_mc]

I used 3/4" oak plywood on mine. :D

You are right, it is not cheap but you don't need much of it. One of the main reasons I went with 3/4" was a sound barrier. There is some noisy stuff in the sump - fans, pumps, skimmers, etc. - and the more sound protection, the better.

I know that my AGA stand is made from MDF and thats all. No other support. It is very solid but I wouldn't use it to make a stand personally.

If you are looking to save a couple bucks, you could go with a good grade of pine playwood and paint it.

[zmazza]

That sounds like a great idea. How much is a sheet of pine plywood? I'd personally rather paint it than stain it anyway. I'm not the best woodworker.

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198292#post9198292 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
That sounds like a great idea. How much is a sheet of pine plywood? I'd personally rather paint it than stain it anyway. I'm not the best woodworker.

Not sure but it will be much cheaper than oak. :D I am sure prices vary by state. I would call your local lumberyard or Home Depot.

The nice thing about painting is that if you do make mistakes, you can just use wood fill to correct them. Once you put the paint on, you would never know there was ever a mistake made in the first place. With staining, if you mess up it will be noticed.

[zmazza]

So it's advisable to sand it smooth before painting, then? If I want a smooth finish, should I cover the whole thing in wood putty? Sounds good that one sheet will work. Do you use the same plywood material to make the canopy as well? You did say it was all one piece, right? I think I'm going to make it so the top of the canopy opens up and has legs for maintenance and feeding, as well as working on the light. I think it's going to look really cool. I can't wait to get started on it. I'll call around today and see what I can get it for. What size plywood do you recommend? 3/4, right?

[30mini]

For a 29, 1/2" skin is fine, but 3/4" is better. I know around me, I can get 3/4" sheet pine for around $30.

[MinibowMatt]

While Structurally sound, MDF should not be used in stands. It would be fine to support the weight, but MDF is a SPONGE. When it gets wet, and it will, the MDF will swell and break apart. Think of what happens to cardboard in water... Even if you KNOW you sealed all ends of the MDF, the water will find a way in, even if it is through a single screw hole. With plywood, it is held together with a water resistant glue, so if it is exposed to the same amount of leakage, it (most likely) will not cause any damage.

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198478#post9198478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
So it's advisable to sand it smooth before painting, then? If I want a smooth finish, should I cover the whole thing in wood putty?
No, just get plywood with a finish surface, then fill in any imperfections.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198478#post9198478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
Do you use the same plywood material to make the canopy as well? You did say it was all one piece, right?
Yes, one sheet should be enough for the sides and top.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198478#post9198478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
I think I'm going to make it so the top of the canopy opens up and has legs for maintenance and feeding, as well as working on the light. I think it's going to look really cool. I can't wait to get started on it. I'll call around today and see what I can get it for. What size plywood do you recommend? 3/4, right?
As stated, 1/2" would be fine, 3/4" would be better. Sounds like a good design. Enjoy!

[zmazza]

Did you put moulding on the sides of your tank? How did you do the moulding to cover up the trim on the bottom? Did you run the moulding all the way back? Did you just use rounded moulding?

[ErikS]

Goodness folks - 3/4" for a SKIN?

1/2" would hold up a 29 gallon without any structural members, there is no reason to use anything but 1/4" for the skin, unless you want some sound proofing. And even then it's would be just easy to add some lightweight rigid insulation inside the stand.

[zmazza]

The 1/2" may work better... especially with the moulding... I wonder how much cheaper it is?

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198816#post9198816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ErikS
Goodness folks - 3/4" for a SKIN?

1/2" would hold up a 29 gallon without any structural members, there is no reason to use anything but 1/4" for the skin, unless you want some sound proofing. And even then it's would be just easy to add some lightweight rigid insulation inside the stand.
I agree that is overkill, but I don't mess around! :D

Actually, there was a thread kicking around here that said the rigid foam doesn't act as a sound barrier. I am not sure why, but I remember reading it and wondering why. I was going to use it in addition to my 3/4". :D

[zmazza]

How did you do the trim on the side of the stand? Where the back piece meets the stand, it looks like it fits very well. How did you accomplish that?

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198881#post9198881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
How did you do the trim on the side of the stand? Where the back piece meets the stand, it looks like it fits very well. How did you accomplish that?

Are you refering to where the top of the stand meets the bottom of the aquarium?

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/50370IMG_4490.jpg

I forget how high the black strip is, but I believe it was about 1". I used 3/4" solid oak for the trim piece. That means, the plywood side had to come up about 1/4" so that it completely hides the black trim. I believe we added an extra 1/8" just to keep the black completely hidden. The trim is attached using biscuits.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9198816#post9198816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ErikS
Goodness folks - 3/4" for a SKIN?

1/2" would hold up a 29 gallon without any structural members, there is no reason to use anything but 1/4" for the skin, unless you want some sound proofing. And even then it's would be just easy to add some lightweight rigid insulation inside the stand.

Theres an LFS near me that has a bank of 3 225 gallon tanks built all of 3/4" ply.


using 3/4 for a skin is a waste of money, and WILL NOT add any more structural support than 1/4" will.

[kelley_mc]

I'm not doing it for structural support but for sound dampening. I have seen (heard) both and the 3/4" is definately quieter than 1/4". All of my support comes from the 2x4 frame. The skin just keeps everything square.

[zmazza]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9200194#post9200194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Theres an LFS near me that has a bank of 3 225 gallon tanks built all of 3/4" ply.


using 3/4 for a skin is a waste of money, and WILL NOT add any more structural support than 1/4" will.

But it will add sound proofing. The 2x4's are more than enough structural support. The plywood is just for sound proofing. I may just go with the 1/4" though, but I'm not sure.

So you bought the 3/4" plywood and just raised it up a bit higher? How did that affect the placement of the trim?

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9200225#post9200225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
But it will add sound proofing. The 2x4's are more than enough structural support. The plywood is just for sound proofing. I may just go with the 1/4" though, but I'm not sure.

So you bought the 3/4" plywood and just raised it up a bit higher? How did that affect the placement of the trim?

With the 3/4" trim and 1/4" raised plywood plus the 1/8" for additional coverage, I completely covered the 1" black strip. Is you go with the 1/4" plywood, I am not sure exactly how you will attach the trim. There won't be much to secure it too. Give me a minute and I will see if I can draw a pic to describe what I mean.

[zmazza]

I'm going to go with the 3/4 now that i think about it for the trim. I found some 3/4" rounded moulding that I think will work well. Still not entirely sure though.

[zmazza]

PS I see a lot of people making stands using routers, biscuit joiners, etc. I'm going to be covering everything with wood putty, etc. I don't have any of those tools. Only a miter saw, table saw, jig saw, cordless and corded drills, and a circular saw. It's going to be painted with white latex paint to match my living room.

Do you think it's possible to make a smooth, clean looking stand without using the router or the biscuit joiner?

[30mini]

Yea, it's totally possible. Look into getting a pocket hole jig

[zmazza]

I had considered that as well, but found that a decent one was going to run be around 60 bucks. :(. Our baby is going to be born in as little as 2 weeks, so I'm on a strapped budget and timeline! LOL!

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9200321#post9200321 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 30mini
Yea, it's totally possible. Look into getting a pocket hole jig

Sweet tool. We used in alot on my stand.

Here is an image of how the corner trim works on my stand.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/50370corner.jpg

I hope it makes sense!
Kelley

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9200368#post9200368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
I had considered that as well, but found that a decent one was going to run be around 60 bucks. :(. Our baby is going to be born in as little as 2 weeks, so I'm on a strapped budget and timeline! LOL!

Never tried, but can you rent one? It may be worth looking into.

[zmazza]

BEST PICTURE EVER! If only everything was explained that easily.

Now all I have to do is figure out how to do my sump and I'll be all set. I'm thinking about buying a seperate 29 gallon to drill, paint, etc that way incase I mess up I won't ruin my current tank. I'll have to purchase the 20 gallon tall too unless I want to use a 10 gallon sump for the moment. Will that work just as well you think?

[zmazza]

Never thought about renting tools. That's a fantastic idea. I wonder what the rental rates are?

[30mini]

That's a whole nother beast. Do a search in this forum and you'll find ideas, guaranteed. There are even a few people on here that have done 10 gal sumps.

[zmazza]

Would it be better to do the 20 tall? I really, really need to subscribe to this forum so I can use the search function. That would really be a tool in itself. I'll definitely do that.

[zmazza]

Better yet, I'm going to make the stand a bit bigger and have the plywood hang over a bit, and then I'm going to use the 29 gallon that I have now as a sump. I'm sure it will be much easier. Is that even possible? Would just some beams going across be enough to support the tank? Or would it be wise to put some vertical beams to support the tank? I'm going to be using treated 2x4's and screws. I hate to buy 2 new tanks. I don't think I can afford that at the moment. I'd just move the trmi in a bit for the tank, and keep the corner moulding for the plywood. Not sure how it would look, but I'm sure it would be OK depending on what moulding I went with. I'd keep the canopy and the back the same size, the cabinet would be the only thing that was bigger.

What do you guys think? Opinions?

[ErikS]

You have plenty of tools - you should some of the stuff built with hand tools :D

Kreg works very well, as does a brad nailer (over budget I know). Here's an economical solution, you just have to hold it by hand to drill the pilot holes.


Kreg Mini - $19.99 (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5985)

Just remember to fill in the screws or buy the weather resistant variety.

FWIW "biscuit" are only for alignment, they add nothing structural. You can also use dowels, & those jigs are pretty cheap (DIY?) Heck, glue & nails will hold the trim in place just fine.

And yes, you can just make the frame the size of the tank & then bring the plywood up to cover the trim - looks like the tank is sitting in the stand (sorry, no pics :lol: ). Get some iron on trim @ Home Depot/Lowes to cover the end grain - Viola!

For the canopy you can just make the "box" the outside dimensions of the tank & put two small rails inside to hold it on the lip - viola, trim covered.

My 1st stand I simply skinned the frame w/ 1/4" ply, put the tank on the stand, and then used plain old door molding to cover the trim.....all that takes is a miter saw (easy, just nail the molding to the frame, fill & paint)

[zmazza]

Sounds good to me.

I've got everything but the "cabinetry" stuff. I've got heavy duty air nailers as well. Speaking of nailers... I think I do have a air brad nailer or stapler. I'll see if my brother in laws still have it. Hopefully they do. Didn't know that about the biscuits. Thanks for clearing that up. Whew. So much to learn.

What do you guys think about rubbermaid bins for sumps? I've got a 22 gallon one that I use to hold rock while I'm moving everything around. Do you guys think that would work as a sump? If so, do any of you have any links or pictures on how to section it off? Do you have to worry about heat from the light? I have 10 gallons laying around, and I'm definitely going to have to buy the 29 gallon to drill as I don't really have a place to put my current livestock. I only have a 22 gallon rubbermaid bucket. If they would survive in the bucket for awhile with no light... I'd hate for them to jump out... then I'd just buy the 20 gallon tall.

What do you guys think the best option is?

[zmazza]

Or if anyone lives in TN and wants to do some trading. :) I've got a 192w coralife aqualight double fixture that I'm trying to sell so I can downgrade to a 30" fixture.... Would possibly be willing to trade for a 20 tall as well.

[douggiestyle]

i your looking for something to line and quiet the sump area check out homasote.

[zmazza]

Thanks for the tip. I am going to try and buy a decent router and pocket jig for under $100 dollars today if I can.

[kelley_mc]

Pocket jigs are great and very easy to use. They are nice and secure once installed and make a nice clean and strong joint. Good choice of tools.

You may not need the router too much with this application. We did use a router table to make the trim, but that's it. If you are not interested in making trim, there is a lot available at Home Depot and Lowes that is already pre-made.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[zmazza]

Excellent idea. I'll just purchase the trim. That will save me 80 dollars. =) How much do you think a good pocket jig is? Do you think I can get one at Lowes?

[kelley_mc]

Hmmm... not sure. I received the Master Kreig kit last Christmas. I think that runs around $120 to $130 at Rockler. However, you don't need anything that big. Just get the Mini Kreg that ErikS refered to above and you should be fine. About $20. I am not sure though if Lowes carries them.

[zmazza]

Sounds good. I had noticed that one but didn't know if it was a good one or not.

So by looking at that one, all you need is a clamp to clamp it to the wood, right?

[kelley_mc]

I believe that is the way that one works. Just be sure it is for the thickness of the wood you are using. It may be adjustable, I am not sure. A quick call to Rockler should answer those questions.

[zmazza]

Awesome! I called Lowe's and they have all the Kreg pocket hole jig systems. They have the $130 dollar one with everything under the sun, the 49.97 kit, and the mini kreg. I think I'm going to get the $50 dollar one since it has a face clamp and has 2 "holes" to create your jig, instead of one with the mini kreg. Plus that means I don't have to buy a clamp! They sell "packs" of screws that work with this system, and I think I'll have to go with the 2 and a 1/2 inch screws to join 2x4's.... I was having one heck of a time joining those 2x4's last night. I had some extra wood and some 2x8's that we ripped down and made 2x4's out of just to practice with.... Wow. An exercise in futility. Hopefully this pocket hole jig will work out MUCH better.

PS Kelley... any recent pictures of your canopy?

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9220437#post9220437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
Awesome! I called Lowe's and they have all the Kreg pocket hole jig systems. They have the $130 dollar one with everything under the sun, the 49.97 kit, and the mini kreg. I think I'm going to get the $50 dollar one since it has a face clamp and has 2 "holes" to create your jig, instead of one with the mini kreg. Plus that means I don't have to buy a clamp! They sell "packs" of screws that work with this system, and I think I'll have to go with the 2 and a 1/2 inch screws to join 2x4's.... I was having one heck of a time joining those 2x4's last night. I had some extra wood and some 2x8's that we ripped down and made 2x4's out of just to practice with.... Wow. An exercise in futility. Hopefully this pocket hole jig will work out MUCH better.

PS Kelley... any recent pictures of your canopy?

Nice, things are coming together for you. As for pics, sorry, don't have any new ones. I didn't do much with the tank this weekend, only my water changer. I had some running around to do with the wife and kids and spent the rest of the weekend finishing some remodeling/decorating in our kitchen and living room. Once I get more pics I will post. I will have to dismantle the stand and canopy for sanding so I will try to take as many detail shots as possible.

[zmazza]

It's nice to know that you still have time for this with your wife / kids. My wife and I are expecting our first child in the next few weeks. My wife allows me plenty of time, but I was afraid I wouldn't have any time once our child got here. Good to know that things aren't as bad as people make them out to be. :)

[kelley_mc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9220754#post9220754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zmazza
It's nice to know that you still have time for this with your wife / kids. My wife and I are expecting our first child in the next few weeks. My wife allows me plenty of time, but I was afraid I wouldn't have any time once our child got here. Good to know that things aren't as bad as people make them out to be. :)

I currently have a 2 year old girl and 3 year old boy. They always keep me entertained, kids are always up to something good or bad. Best thing that every happened to me.

My wife is very understanding and supportive. If I care about something, she always stands by me and supports me. Things have been much slower because of the kids, at best I get a couple hours on the weekend to do work. But its a nice break.

Congrats on the future child. He/she will change your life, but once you have your baby, you will wonder how you lived without your child. Enjoy it, they are only babies for a short time and it FLIES on by. I can't believe how quickly these couple years have gone since we had our children.

[zmazza]

Thanks for the wisdom. I'm really excited and so is my wife. I'm hoping they like aquariums and parrots as much as I do.