Does my emp have HLLE(PICS)?

[jer77]

If so then what can I do about it? I've been doing 20% water changes every 2 weeks. I don't know about stray electricity. All the water parmeters are good. I have been feeding him angelfish/butterfly fish food. I've heard soaking in selcon or something similar might help. I can't get him to eat any vegi's like nori. I've also heard supplements of iodine, vitamin C, and A might help too. Any help would be appreciated.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/79338HILE2.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/79338HILE.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/79338emp.jpg

[reefshadow]

Yes, definately looks like the start of HE. Feeding the sponge-heavy diet is good, I have had great success treating advanced HLLE in adopted fish and I believe diet makes a huge difference. You may also consider trying a homemade recipe to get as much nutrition into your fish as possible. I make my own frozen food by buying a frozen raw seafood mix that includes shell-on shrimp, scallops, squid, clams and mussles. I put it into a blender with selcon, 2 types of nori, and a little crushed cooking garlic (the kind that comes in the jar). Blend and pour it into quart ziplock bags, freeze it flat, then break off pieces for the fish. This is a good way to get some greens into the diet as it's all mixed together. My fish go nuts for it. You can alternate the foods as well, as the angel will do better with sponge. I would also recommend feeding very frequently, several times a day in small amounts.

Make sure stress is at a minimum as well, if there is bullying or another stressor present it needs to be dealt with. The water changes are good, but may not make much of a difference in reversing the HE, rather they help halt the advance by optimising the environment.

I didn't see your system specifics, but if improved diet and other methods don't help you may consider letting this fish go to a larger system with more natural sponge growth (more optimal environment) -if you think your tank may not be the right environment for this fish. Not any kind of judgement on you or your reefkeeping skills, but sometimes these fish just don't do well despite best efforts. A seperate system or fuge where you can swap rock is a good idea as well, so it has a constant supply of natural food to graze on.

Here are a couple of illustrative pics of some BAD HE, very common in the larger angels. This guy was really hurting when I recieved him, worst case of HE I have ever seen, down to the bone in a few places. It was incredible to me that this fish was even alive.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/20899koran_hlle.jpg
Here he is a few months later, after improved diet and stress-free environment-

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/20899koran.jpg
Unfortunately I didn't get the last pic before rehoming him, I was between cameras, but it was reversed 100 percent within 4 months.

So in conclusion, my opinion based on experience is optimal diet, low or no stress, low nitrates, high stable alkalinity, stable PH, and good nutrient export. If you feel you are lacking in any of these areas looking into correcting them is a good idea.

Beautiful fish, good luck!!!

[RedEyeElf]

agreed

[jer77]

Thanks for the very informed response! I may try making my own food with the nori combined. Sounds like a very good idea. I just added some chaeto and caulerpa to my sump which I heard can help also. The only problem might be that the tank is too small. Its a 75, I know too small for a full grown emp, but once he gets too big for the tank I can sell him back to the LFS, I've already arranged this, so he gets a good home. But he is and will be the only fish in the tank. So I believe he has little stress at this time. Nitrates are 0, but I'll have to check on the alk. The pH is stable at 8.3. I have a ASM G-2 skimmer for nutrient export.

[reefshadow]

Yeah, sorry I didn't see your system specs, they don't show up on the reply page??

Yes, 75 is small for long term but probably fine for now with a small specimin, especially with no other fish. Your system sounds good equipment wise, and since you have more than one tank you may really consider swapping some rock every so often to try and get as much natural diversity for the angel to graze on, especially if you have any rock in the other systems with sponge. Some of the angels will also occasionally graze on macros so adding a rock with some of that may help increase diet diversity. If you have continued problems getting this guy to feed you may consider adding a few peaceful dither type fish that will feed on a variety of foods, like a few chromis or something of that sort. I've noticed that sometimes picky fish just need to be "shown" what is good to eat.

FWIW, the angel I pictured above was in my 80 gallon sump that I had on my 125 gallon reef for the first couple of months of treatment and he did great. I wanted to let him initially acclimate to the tank in a place with no other fish and lots of natural food, where I could target feed him as well, and I wasn't sure about him having access to a banquet of corals after being in a horrible FO system. I finally bit the bullet and added him to the display where he did fine for the last few months, so size of the tank isn't everything as far as HLLE goes. This was a very large fish, too, about 8-9 inches.

Anyhow, good luck with this guy!

[Sk8r]

My tang won't eat nori either, and he came in with hlle---I took to feeding him spirulina frozen cubes, and it has improved.

[jer77]

Just checked my dkH and it was a little low at 7. I'm gonna try to raise it to around 10 over the next few days. Does this sound good? I tried feeding him some angelfish food with spinich, sponges, and other good vegi's, but he wouldn't go after it. And with the angelfish/butterfly fish food he goes after only the shrimp. I don't know whether to only give him the good food until he eats it. Will he starve or eventually eat it? I like the idea of adding some small non-aggressive fish to show him to eat.

[Sk8r]

Try frozen spirulina: it comes laced with shrimp and clam juice and will tempt a fish that only likes his chocolates and declines his veggies.

[reefshadow]

Yeah, 10 sounds good but 7 is NSW level and probably fine as well, though bumping it up never hurts. I don't think it's a cause, rather just another little thing you can do to optimize the environment, offset PH swings, ect...

I would feed whatever the fish will eat for the time being, trying new foods every once in awile, it will probably eventually get the idea. The spirulina is a good food as well, like Sk8r suggested. If this is a relatively new fish it may just take awile to equate your hand + something coming into the tank + bite and swallow = yummmmm! Your fish can live with HLLE for a very long time and so I wouldn't consider this to be an emergency situation, more a matter of introducing new foods until he will eat a variety, optimising environment and continuing to keep stress low. If no new foods work, I would try the small hardy dithers, something cheap and nonagressive like chromis, a couple of cardinals, or similar. It can often help.

[jer77]

Ok, so I just went to my LFS and I got Vita-Chem and some garlic extreme, they didn't have selcon. I looked at the ingredients and it has vitamin A which I heard can help reverse HE. Is this true? Has anyone else used Vita-Chem? How long should I soak the food in the Vita-Chem? It also says to add it directly to the tank because it absorbs through the skin.
I also bought some enriched brine shrimp with vitamin C, caulerpa, spinich, various seafoods, and other good stuff.
How long does it usually take to see signs of reversing HE?

[SDguy]

I had excellent rersults reversing HLLE on a hippo tang many many years ago in a FO tank. Back then vita chem was clear orange/pink liquid. It is now milky, I assume due to additional ingredients such as those found in selcon. I assume though that it should still help.

[jer77]

Does anyone know if No Sick Fish's HTH hole in the head treatment is any good at reversing effects of HE? Here's a link to it. http://www.nosickfish.com/shop.php?product=6
Theres not much of a description so I'm a little skeptical.

[rodd1rj]

What kind of flake food do you recommend for angelfish. Right now I have formula 2 and prime reef. Along with nori sheets and frozen mysis. Anything else you guys recommend, Im also trying to heal angel with HLLE. Thanks

[SDguy]

I would be feeding only good quality frozen foods while trying to heal HLLE. I would only use the dry food as an addition, since it soaks up the selcon/vita-chem so well. New Life Spectrum pellets are supposed to be very good.

[artman18944]

was just reading about HLLE and the consensus seems to be a vitamin A deficiancy. a public aquarium found great sucess in feeding shredded carrots and fresh brocili to its tangs that had HLLE

[rodd1rj]

SDguy what do you mean when you say good quality frozen food...like home made or a specific brand?

[jer77]

Ya, who makes their own fish food and whats in it?

[rodd1rj]

Also what kind of flake or frozen foods are specialy for angelfish, I can't seem to find any names.

[SDguy]

Making your own homemade recipe is great! There are recipes floating around here on RC. Ocean Nutrition makes decent frozen formulations...including an angel formula. Supplement with all sorts of meaty frozen foods, like scallop, shrimp, mysis, squid, clam, mussel, krill, plankton....you get the idea. And nori too.

[jer77]

Well its all good and stuff but my angel won't touch any algae of any type. The only stuff that he goes after is mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, and sometimes spirulina, thanks to sk8r's for the advice. I try and feed everything though. I think its still young and doesn't know it can eat algae.

[kimha]

My emperor used to have holes on his head too. After I switched to Ocean Nutrition frozen Angel formula ( has lots of sponge in it ), those holes went away.

[leeweber85]

Do you use carbon? I've heard that running carbon can cause it in angels... Sounds whacky I know, but worth looking into

[jer77]

I had removed all carbon well before the addition of the fish. I've read all about the carbon/stray voltage stuff, some of which I don't believe too much.

[kimha]

I use carcon and replace it once a month. But I rinse my new carbon very thoroughly before putting it into my sump. It keeps the water sparkling clean and odor free.