tank tipping concerns

[audioaddiction]

i'm putting together a 90 gallon reef tank with a 29 gallon sump.

in the attached pictures my stand is unfinished but my question isn't as much regarding the stand's ability to hold the tank regarding vertical stress (which i now am more comfortable with), but the question's about the stability of the setup in regards to sway and leaning, which could tip it. you can see in the pictures my stand is just a little higher than most, it's 3' feet high. average is probably around 2.5' feet. the setup will be on carpet! also as noted below, the stand will be surrounded on the sides and front i'm thinking with atleast 1/2" inch plywood sheets. this will give it just a tiny bit more length and width than before. the filled tank will obviously be top-heavy on the stand. i was pondering whether the stand would become more stable, regarding sway, due to the immense weight of the tank on top. maybe, or maybe just the opposite. i'm pretty good at being able to figure these kinds of things but this time i can't tell and i'm concerned.

things to note:

-stand will have two 2x4's, or two 2x6's as the vertical center supports. the reason i'd stick with 2x4's is that i'd like as much room as possible for the doors in the front, and that it seems to be what other people have done and worked fine. but i want to be sure!

-stand has four more 2x4's as horizontal support, two on top, and two on bottom. this picture was taken before these were done.

-inside the stand there will be a 1/2" inch or 3/4" inch plywood sheet floor.

-a 29 gallon sump (2/3's filled) will be on the floor inside the stand (helping to steady the tank from sway atleast some, i'd hope)

-i will be adding atleast 1/2" inch plywood sheet across the entire front and sides as "beauty board" but mainly serving to keep the stand from... what's the correct term for collapsing apart sideways or forwards and making my cubical stand a flat pancake.

-the entire deal will be screwed back together with liquid nails inside every joint.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/zackpoll/100_1004tiny.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/zackpoll/100_1006tinydiagram.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c377/zackpoll/100_1008tinydiagram.jpg

thankyou everyone

[GoldStripe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9219634#post9219634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by audioaddiction
i'm putting together a 90 gallon reef tank with a 29 gallon sump.

noted below, the stand will be surrounded on the sides and front i'm thinking with atleast 1/2" inch plywood sheets. this will give it just a tiny bit more length and width than before. the filled tank

-i will be adding atleast 1/2" inch plywood sheet across the entire front and sides as "beauty board" but mainly serving to keep the stand from... what's the correct term for collapsing apart sideways or forwards and making my cubical stand a flat pancake.



I think the term you're looking for is "sheer" strength. Skinning with 1/2" or 3/4" ply will add a tremendous amount of strength to the structure. I think the structure you have in the picture looks fine as it is. I've seen stands for 120 gallon tanks that were plywood only, no 2x supports at all. See what other people say in here, but I'd bet you'll be fine. The stand i built for my 150 (48x24x30) is 33" high with no special bracing except the plywood. My vertical legs are doubled 2x4's and the top frame is doubled 2x4 and it's more than plenty.

[coralnut99]

I also agree the stand is fine as constructed. Take it from someone who terribly overbuilds stuff: you don't need 3/4" plywood to skin it. 1/4" would be fine. If you glue the skin to your stand, you'll be amazed at how solid and "resistant to sway" your stand will be. Placing it on carpeting may make it susceptable to some vibration, but nothing that would cause it to tip in my mind. If you want to go the extra measure, you could fasten the stand to studs in the wall behind the tank in some fashion.

[ctreefer]

I agree as well. You shouldn't have any problem with the carpeting. Within a short period anyways the carpeting under the weight will compress and be fairly stable as well. Then you just have to deal with wet carpets from unforseen overflow disasters. :)

[coralnut99]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9220539#post9220539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctreefer
I agree as well. You shouldn't have any problem with the carpeting. Within a short period anyways the carpeting under the weight will compress and be fairly stable as well. Then you just have to deal with wet carpets from unforseen overflow disasters. :)

Having had fish tanks almost my entire life, I suggest that you get some advice from folks who keep tanks on carpeted or HW floors. I haven't had a tank on carpets for a very long time, and even then I was too young to even be worried about it. I've seen some stands folks have constructed that would actually retain water in case of an overflow in the sump area.

[webbstock]

If the stand is going to be near a wall, you can install a couple of L-brackets that fasten the stand to the wall. Just be sure that you attached the bracket to a stud and not just the sheetrock.

If the stand is gong to be free standing (like center of room) you could make som small decorative "feet" that would attache to the bottom sides of the stand to help stablize things by giving the stand greater width.

[audioaddiction]

thanks guys

yeah i'm pretty confident in the stand itself now.

what i was mostly concerned about was the whole deal just tipping over forward, even if the stand held it's own. i think i'll fill it atleast halfway when the stand is completed, and if i'm not satisfied with the stability i will use the L brackets and mount it to some studs in the wall, good idea guys! i had the same idea but i think i passed on it because i overcomplicated it thinking about big bolts making big holes in an apartment wall :rolleyes:

as for water, i am coating the stand (then taking apart and coating again) with water sealent. when i put it back together for good i'll be sealing all joints with Liquid Nails. i'm not sure what i'm going to do to the "beauty boards" on the outside. i'm still debating over staining them very lightly to match my B&W DM604's (series 3 :cool: ) and have a blueish/green glass background, or doing the whole deal a deep black. i'm not sure if i need to water seal those sheets of wood or not. hmm...

thanks again

[brackishdude]

don't attach those L brackets until the tank has settled into the carpet nicely. :eek1:

[BeanAnimal]

BTW the term you were looking for is "wracking". That is how we describe twisting under load or the deformation of a 3-dimensional box.

Bean

[lakee911]

Don't use Liquid Nails or any construction adhesive. It's far too flexible and so thick your tolerances will be out of wack. Besides, it doesn't soak in like wood glue does. Use a liberal amount of wood glue and get the waterproof kind.

[audioaddiction]

brackishdude: definitely! i have decided L bracket's for sure. am going to let it sit for a while while getting everything else set up... protein skimmer, custom sump, figuring out the plumbing (by the way, what does everyone recommend? spa flex?)

beananimal: thanks for the term i'm going to remember that one. i've never heard of it!

lakee911: hmmmmm, youre right about the thickness of it. it's very hard to apply compared to glue. i doubt the wood glue will do much soaking in since i water-proofed the entire thing though. thanks!

thanks everyone sorry so short i'm borrowing this computer!

[techrider62]

Have you ever looked close at a aga stand not much to them

[BeanAnimal]

if you have waterproofed, the wood glue is not going to stick :) You will need to use a thin epoxy or other bonding agent (or no glue at all and just rely on the mechanical fastners.

[cannarella]

That shold not be a problem b/c none of the fasteners are going to carry any direct load. Just hold it all together. Also when you skin it make sure that you use enough fasteners to prevent the wracking since you will not be using any glue, unless you use epoxy like Bean said.

I would suggest roughing up the areas with some 150 grit sandpaper to give the epoxy something better to hold on to.

Looks good.

[audioaddiction]

ah i posted a big reply yesterday but in the middle of it lightning struck and internet went down so it didnt send i see now. i'll post tonight sometime! going to work

[audioaddiction]

thanks everyone!

techrider62 - yes not much to the looks of them. rediculously weak looking actually!, but they use plywood which keeps the frame from "wracking" horizontally sideways or forewards. 2x4 stands aren't going to make a stand as strong in this area- plenty of vertical support but without both it's gonna craaaaash!

beananimal - ok tomorrow i'm going to home depot / lowes to search for something epoxy-like.

cannarella - i will use lots of fasteners, screws i guess, but i'm wondering what they best way will be to cover the front with oak or birch, without screws all over. if i put moulding all around that will hide them, but i might go contemporary style on this... good looks and costs down.

so tomorrow i'm off work and planning on getting some of this done. i'm going to be taking a couple trips to the stores. hopefully i can get some advice from you all out there before i go pick up the beauty board wood. here's what i'm trying to figure out...

-which type of board to cover with? lowes sells oak and birch sheets, home depot pretty much the same. i'm not sure if one type of wood is known to be better quality or look better when finished. i do know that Oceanic's stands are oak.

-what am i going to do about cabinet doors. i hear people have used doors found on other home cabinetry but mine would have to be custom cut, i think that's out. i'd like to just cut my own and use "euro" style "inset" hinges but i dont have any tools here at the apartment to bore the holes into doors that atleast the hinges i've seen need done to fit.

things-to-buy-list:

- epoxy-like agent for already water-sealed wood bonding
- L brackets
- oak or birch, OAK OR BIRCH??? or something else...?
- fasteners for the beauty board
- taco bell

some things i'm wondering about, to start on when the stand is completed:

-plumbing. i'v never done it before. i'd like to know where to find this spa-flex everyone is mentioning.

-also wondering about glass/plexi for the sump. i plan on buying a 29 gallon tank, or something similar, and dividing into a "sump-->return<--skimmer" style as recommended my melev on his site. (thanks melev) i'd like the max amount of refugium space while fitting a future protein skimmer such as an AquaC EV-180 with pump. this is going to be worked on after the stand but it's processing in my head. boy i tell you it's hard to find a website with some good sump plans. most i've found are random sketches with little info. if i knew the point of each divider and size and spacing i could apply the knowledge, such as knowing the few closely spaced are for a bubble trap, and what that does. i hope to be able to display mine in this way. anyway, acrylic from the store is either very expensive per small sheet, or cheaply-flexible. i was wondering if there might be glass shops around where you can walk in, pick some and get it cut into certain rectangular sizes real quick for a pretty easy fee. i'd imagine so?
i've also yet to find "egg-crate" generally used in lighting applications, to use for my sump. employee's point me all over. :rolleyes:

also: camera, cell phone, and my laptop computer are all out of service at the moment, it's rediculous :lol: but i'm going to borrow a camera and show pics of the stand. 2x4 structure and floor are complete

[GoldStripe]

Birch vs. oak is kind of a personal taste thing. If you like the heavy grain look of oak, I'd go with that. I chose to use birch from Lowe's. I think my Lowe's has another type of wood also but I can't remember what they called it. It was almost grainless from what I remember.

L brackets: I got these from Lowe's also, not the ones in the Hardware isle. These were closer to the lumber, where the framing stuff is.

Screws: stainless... may want to consider it

Sump: If you plan on using a glass tank for a sump, then definitely go to the glass shop with measurements you need. Baffle spacing depends on how much flow you have thru the sump. I used 2" spacing on my big tank but only 1" on my smaller tank. You also may want to re-think the sizes of your sections. The return area needs to be as large as possible because that is where the evaporation is going to show up. If you have a small return section, you're going to have to top off much more frequently. That info is on Melev's site as well.

[cannarella]

If you use the epoxy with a couple fasteners to hold it in place while it cures you can minimize the number of fasteners. One thing you may want to consider is fastening form the inside with Pocket screws. You can buy a jig, bit, and screws for under $50.

http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/product.php?PRODUCT_ID=30

Something like this. It will let you screw the face on from the inside so no fasteners are seen. This along with the epoxy will make a very stiff stand. You have to use special screws with this jig, but it works beautifully.

Google cabinet doors and ther are places online that you can order custom sizes in any style and wood that you want.

Spa-flex can be found at Lowes and HD.

Also, what are you doing up at 4:30am???

[hllywd]

audio,

It's not going to take a lot to keep your stand from racking. Finish nails to install the plywood should work very well and leave only small holes to fill. There shouldn't be any real need to use a bazillion of them either, especially if you use some glue. Personally I'd use the Liquid Nails, sparingly. Epoxy IMO woud be a lot of extra fuss.
Also doors are pretty easy to make from the same plywood. The door blanks need to be cut very precisely with a good finish blade and sanded lightly then you can apply some iron on edge banding sand and finish. You will need a 35mm forstner bit to bore the holes if you use the cup hinges you were talking about but that's it. Not too difficult.
Backing up a little... are you worried about this thing falling or being pulled over???

Tim

[coralnut99]

If you skin this in oak plywood, you'll have 100X easier job finding matching stock doors. If you skin it in Birch, you'll only find maple doors, possibly pine and they won't even be close in terms of color or grain pattern. If you use oak plywood, you'll at least be able to come very close to matching grain patterns. The doors will most likely come pre-finished, so choose the finish for your oak plywood carefully. Keep in mind that some finishes will affect color gradually over time.

[cmc0814]

my 75 gallon is 49 inches tall. It looks like yours, and I haven't had any problems in 2 years. Even with people leaning on it.

[conefree]

spa-flex: available at Lowe's and HD locally, but not cheap. You can get it much cheaper, and most of your other plumbing supplies from Savko Plumbing Supplies (http://www.savko.com)

Egg-crate: can be found locally at Lowe's and HD for about $10 per 2'x4' grid section. It is found in the same section as the suspended ceilings. You likely won't find it on display, it will most likely be in a box (about 4" thick) at about hip or chest level.

Hope that helps!

[audioaddiction]

thanks chris your 2 mins saves me 20. looks like a good site and i when i ask employees about egg crate lighting they point me all over the store

[cannarella]

The egg crate should be with the fluorescent lighting or over in the drop ceiling tile area.

[conefree]

yeah that's typical of those employees. I went on a 30 minute wild goose chase for angle iron for my garage opener, just because I didn't want to pay $16 for the stuff that they conveniently staged by the openers heh. Most of the stores are laid out the same so, you should be able to find the eggcrate in Lowe's near the drop ceiling section by the molding and lumber. For Home Depot, it would be on the end of the store closest to the outdoor gardening center, near the exterior light section. HTH