Tank Crashed

[bohlke]

Well my attempt to rid the flatworms out of my tank has caused it to crash in a bad way. Its a mess, however I was able to move most of my corals to my sump/fuge and at least they are ok. Now I need to get the smell to go away from the house, whats the best way to do this to get started again? Do I need to cook all of the LR?

[kiknchikn]

That probably depends on what you used to remove the FW? Sorry about your tank crashing, hopefully you didn't lose too much.

[bohlke]

Salifert Flat-Exit, underestimated the remaining flatworms and couldnt get the water good no mater how quickly I changed the water. After the bristelworms started ding I removed almost all of the corals. I have a temporary home for the inhabitants but I want to get my tank back and healthy, what should I do?

[kiknchikn]

A series of big water changes along with the action of your skimmer should be enough to remove the toxin from the FWs I would think. I'm not an expert though.

[bohlke]

Well now there is a ton of dead bristleworms, snails, pods, etc in the tank. I am assuming I should drain all of the water out and start again but I want to make sure I start clean. Should I remove the LR and freswater dip it, or just let it cycle in a garbage can while I get the live sand cleaned up?

[tkeracer619]

How did it crash your tank? Did you follow the instructions to a T?

Including sucking any visable flatworms out?

Dont start over just do a couple larger changes and run lots of carbon. Siphon anything dead out.

[kiknchikn]

FW dipping the LR will just harm any of the critters still surviving in it. If you really feel the need to flush the rocks out use old SW from the water changes you'll be doing.

[Rays]

Dont start over just do a couple larger changes and run lots of carbon. Siphon anything dead out.
That should jump start you.

[bohlke]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9231621#post9231621 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tkeracer619
How did it crash your tank? Did you follow the instructions to a T?

Including sucking any visable flatworms out?

Dont start over just do a couple larger changes and run lots of carbon. Siphon anything dead out.

Well I siphoned out quite a few (two bags full), got it off all the rocks and sand and most of the glass. There were just a few stragglers, however I should have known that there were tons of them trapped in the LR that I could not see. Anyway I added the flat-ex and then they were everywhere in the water. I started carbon in the sump and set the skimmer to wet skim. As soon as I saw the bristle worms dying I knew I was in trouble and started water changes. I must have changed 50% of the foulest smelling water out of the tank. The whole house smells now, I am working on cleaning it up now. Almost all of the inverts in the tank died and a few fish, I am assuming this was due to the toxins from the flatworms. I also threw in the towel on the main tank at about 3am (started this whole process at 8pm) and I isolated the sump and fuge from the main tank and did a 80%-90% water change, let it settle and then moved all of the corals to the fuge and sump.

Now I am cleaning up the mess in the main tank, I guess I could hit all of the rocks with a powerhead on a hose and do a major water change. I may move a bunch of water to a clean garbage can and move the lr there and clean in out and move it back in the tank. Thoughts?

[poopsko24]

get a canister filter, fill it to the max with carbon, run the heck out of that.

[tkeracer619]

If pulling your rockwork apart is an option and I know this is going to be a pain but....


I would get a 5 gallon bucket of salt water with FWE, and a large container to put the rocks in.

Often some flatworms will survive the first treatment. Take each rock out and put it in the 5gal with FWE. Shake it around vigoriously. Then put the rock in some fresh sw to rinse it.

Get all of the rock out, dipped, and rinsed. Clean the top layer of the sandbed, put the rock back in.

This way you know flatworms are not comming back and you wont have to do the treatment again in a month.

Again I think as long as you get most of it out and run carbon you would be fine. Since your tank sounds pretty taken apart already might as well go all out.

[AquaReeferMan]

OMG Im sorry to hear about that. I had nasty tank crash due to a power outage and I was devastated. Just keep your head up. I would keep your LR and LS in there. Like you said use a powerhead and try to get as much of the dead critters from inside the rock. Your just gonna have to cycle your tank again if thats possible. If someone can hold your corals thats the best situation. Your tank should be able to cycle itself again within a couple of weeks with water changes. Once its cycled you can add you corals back as well as some new fish. I know its hard. I lost a lot. The onlythings that survived in my mixed reef were 2 clowns, a Hippo, my Clam, my zoanthids, and my Carpet anemone.

[Jakealien]

What are these worms and are they poisonous?

[melev]

Thanks for linking me to this thread. Quick question: You said you moved the corals to the sump. Is the sump still running with the main tank, or did you isolate it for now? You'll need to maintain good water quality down there especially if the corals are stressed or declining. They too will pollute the water.

For your tank issue, this is what I would do:

Make a bunch of new saltwater. If it was me, I'd make two trashcans full (60g). Rather than dipping your LR in freshwater, I would rinse and shake them off in a 6g bucket of saltwater, and then put them back in the tank.

Actually, this would be my procedure:

Drain some or most of the tank water into a container, and remove the LR placing it in that same water. Once you have enough to keep all the rock submerged, drain the rest of the water out of the tank.

If you feel the sandbed is dead (which I sincerely doubt) and want to start from scratch, you can take the sand outside and wash it with a garden hose until it runs clear. This is a great way to remove all the old trapped detritus and start new. Is your sandbed over 4 years old? Once all washed clean, put it back in the tank.

Start pumping new water into the tank, into a pitcher standing on a platter to avoid disturbing the sand so you don't have a sand storm.

Dunk and swish each piece of LR in a bucket of saltwater to rinse it well, and place it in the tank. Once done, refill the tank the rest of the way. As long as the rock stays submerged all the time, it won't cycle.

Start up the pumps, and run fresh carbon. If you have a Phosban Reactor, fill 'er up with 3 cups of new carbon and let it run for the next three days. Test your water daily for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to see if a cycle occurred due to the deaths in the tank and/or your clean up.

At that point, you can move your livestock back up to the tank if all is well.

[bohlke]

Funny I was just thinking the same thing, however I want to get all of the dead nasty water out as soon as possible, so here is my 3 bucket plan.

Drain the tank into a 30G can, move all the LR to the can. Siphon out all the dead stuff in the sand as much as possible.

Get two 5G buckets, one with FWE in it, the other with just new salt mix. Clean as much dead stuff off of the LR in bucket one, move it to bucket two for 15 min (longer?) and then move it to bucket 3 to clean it off. Should I have some carbon in bucket 3? After that back into the tank, the tank will now be full with a 80-90% water change. Then I need to wait for it to cycle.

I am going to use this disaster as an opportunity to change a few things with the tank, hopefully for the better but time will tell.

If I was going to add more LR to the tank now would be the time right?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9232043#post9232043 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tkeracer619
If pulling your rockwork apart is an option and I know this is going to be a pain but....


I would get a 5 gallon bucket of salt water with FWE, and a large container to put the rocks in.

Often some flatworms will survive the first treatment. Take each rock out and put it in the 5gal with FWE. Shake it around vigoriously. Then put the rock in some fresh sw to rinse it.

Get all of the rock out, dipped, and rinsed. Clean the top layer of the sandbed, put the rock back in.

This way you know flatworms are not comming back and you wont have to do the treatment again in a month.

Again I think as long as you get most of it out and run carbon you would be fine. Since your tank sounds pretty taken apart already might as well go all out.

[bohlke]

Thanks for the tips, I really think the sand is still live, there are just dead bristle worms the size of earthworms floating around on it. I can see pods, etc moving about. The sump is isolated, local members of our reef club are going to house my corals while I get fixed so I think I wont loose much but my pride :)

I dont have a DSB in the main tank, its only about 2" deep with sugar size sand and it has been there for about 4 years with a sand sifting star (which survived). I am not sure I will have enough food for the star now however I may sell it to the LFS. I have heard they dont last long in tanks as they starve.



<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9232072#post9232072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Thanks for linking me to this thread. Quick question: You said you moved the corals to the sump. Is the sump still running with the main tank, or did you isolate it for now? You'll need to maintain good water quality down there especially if the corals are stressed or declining. They too will pollute the water.

For your tank issue, this is what I would do:

Make a bunch of new saltwater. If it was me, I'd make two trashcans full (60g). Rather than dipping your LR in freshwater, I would rinse and shake them off in a 6g bucket of saltwater, and then put them back in the tank.

Actually, this would be my procedure:

Drain some or most of the tank water into a container, and remove the LR placing it in that same water. Once you have enough to keep all the rock submerged, drain the rest of the water out of the tank.

If you feel the sandbed is dead (which I sincerely doubt) and want to start from scratch, you can take the sand outside and wash it with a garden hose until it runs clear. This is a great way to remove all the old trapped detritus and start new. Is your sandbed over 4 years old? Once all washed clean, put it back in the tank.

Start pumping new water into the tank, into a pitcher standing on a platter to avoid disturbing the sand so you don't have a sand storm.

Dunk and swish each piece of LR in a bucket of saltwater to rinse it well, and place it in the tank. Once done, refill the tank the rest of the way. As long as the rock stays submerged all the time, it won't cycle.

Start up the pumps, and run fresh carbon. If you have a Phosban Reactor, fill 'er up with 3 cups of new carbon and let it run for the next three days. Test your water daily for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to see if a cycle occurred due to the deaths in the tank and/or your clean up.

At that point, you can move your livestock back up to the tank if all is well.

[melev]

Since you have SSS in your sandbed, your sand is <i>probably</i> clean but since it is so many years old, I'd be inclined to wash it just to get a new start, especially since your livestock is being housed elsewhere for the duration.

Save one or two cups of sand from the surface to reseed the sandbed.

The LR does not need to be soaked for a period (15 mins as you posted above). Just dunk, swished it hard, use a powerhead to blow it off and flush out the crevices, and rinse it in a second bucket. Just keep it submerged as much as possible to avoid more die-off.

[kiknchikn]

I hope the club members that are going to house your corals don't get FW too from the corals and the rocks they're on...

[tinatuom]

Good luck with that mess! I am dealing with a crash myself. We purchased a rock about 2 weeks ago, and a pacific blue tang about 4 weeks ago, and ended up with ich. Didn't realize anything was wrong until we lost 3 fish, than couldn't get them out fast enough and lost a couple more. Right now we have a 55 gallon tank sitting on our living room floor because we had to react quickly and get the fish out and start treating them!

All is well in our main tank, just praying that our fish recover in their quarantine tank! The ones that survived were our tough guys anyway, so I think they will come through like troopers! If you decide to move your sand sifting star soon, I could take him! I was looking for one for our tank anyway and I will be meeting up with Jeremy this weekend to purchase the rest of his corals! Just let me know either way, and keep your head up! Your efforts will be worth it in the end to save your fish!
Tina

[bohlke]

I am going to treat the corals (and rocks they are on) with FWE during the transition. Then we are going to run carbon at the destination tank in case there was any leftover FW.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9232290#post9232290 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kiknchikn
I hope the club members that are going to house your corals don't get FW too from the corals and the rocks they're on...

[bohlke]

The SSS is great and is fantastic at keeping the sand clean. The conch and gthe SSS kept my sand as clean as could be for years. With the new 'fuge growing more food for it it could be happy for a while. I will watch it closely as it is one of our favorites. I may get a wrasse or a mandarin to help out but I am concerned that the SSS and the wrasse or mandarin will be competing for the same food and one will starve. The conch is dead so I will continue my quest for a fighting conch. Anyway the WAF is high on a QT/Coral Prop tank now so there is a silver lining. My plan was to use a tank or a bucket for QT from now on but since she suggested it :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9234819#post9234819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tinatuom
Good luck with that mess! I am dealing with a crash myself. We purchased a rock about 2 weeks ago, and a pacific blue tang about 4 weeks ago, and ended up with ich. Didn't realize anything was wrong until we lost 3 fish, than couldn't get them out fast enough and lost a couple more. Right now we have a 55 gallon tank sitting on our living room floor because we had to react quickly and get the fish out and start treating them!

All is well in our main tank, just praying that our fish recover in their quarantine tank! The ones that survived were our tough guys anyway, so I think they will come through like troopers! If you decide to move your sand sifting star soon, I could take him! I was looking for one for our tank anyway and I will be meeting up with Jeremy this weekend to purchase the rest of his corals! Just let me know either way, and keep your head up! Your efforts will be worth it in the end to save your fish!
Tina

[bohlke]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9232270#post9232270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Since you have SSS in your sandbed, your sand is <i>probably</i> clean but since it is so many years old, I'd be inclined to wash it just to get a new start, especially since your livestock is being housed elsewhere for the duration.



Ok the sand seems filthy, I sifted through it today dredging for dead bristle worms and got most of them out. After it settled again there was what looks like soot sitting on top of the sand throughout the sandbed. Now its sugar sized sand so it floats all over the place. Makes it hard to clean. Any suggestions? Its 2 deg F right now so I think I will pass on the garden hose cleaning outside :)

[melev]

Well, doing it inside would be a lot of work but you can do it in the bathtub instead. Or perhaps you could drag a garden hose from outside to the bathroom? I agree about the freezing cold being a bad time to rinse sand outside.

By swirling and sloshing the water in a bucket, you can get the sediment to rise to the surface of the sand, and pour off that excess water and waste each time you've refilled the bucket.

[MrPike]

Here is what I would do. Siphon your sandbed like you would do a freshwater aquarium. Turkey baste and blast your rocks, then siphon all the crap that accumulates on the sands surface. Then if you havent already siphoned 75% of your salt water, I would drain it down to about 25% tank volume, and fill with nice fresh salt water.

Your liverock is fine, whats going to happen is your ammonia will spike from all the die off, and your tank will behave like you have fresh liverock with dying and decaying matter. The difference here is, your liverock is fine, and the decaying matter is all the fish, snails, worms that died from the flatworm poisoning. Your liverocks bacteria will increase to takeup the ammonia, then your nitrites will spike, yadda yadda.

Good luck, when something crappy happens, I always try and improve the tank in someway so things were not a total loss. Damn flatworms are a menace, sorry to hear this happened, especially since it seems you did everything right.

[tinatuom]

Looks like you and I will both be keeping a permanent quarantine tank from now on! My husband tore mine down a few months ago, but now after our disaster he said we will be keeping one up from now on! Of course it won't be the 55 gallon sitting on my floor! I can't wait to have that tank back so I can get it up and running for real, not as a quarantine!

I hope the rest of your critters and your corals bounce back! It is a terrible loss and a loss of money when you watch them die! Just keep me in mind if you have a need to place anything, even temporarily! I am in Omaha, but that isn't a huge drive. I also have lots of room if your corals won't fit in Jeremy's tank!
Tina

[bohlke]

This is what I did, I took a pitcher and scooped up the sand so it was about 50% full (25% sand 25% filth). Then I rinsed it in the sink by filling the pitcher with water and then watching the sand all get in the water column. After the sand settled I dumped out the filth. I would repeat this as many times as I could to get the sand clearer. Then I moved that into a tub (the clean sand). I got about 70% of the sand scrubbed this way and so far so good. I have moved all of the sand back in the tank with about 35G of new salt water. I am going to dip rocks today assuming I can get the rest of the water made. The soft corals are doing good in the fuge and the LPS is in Jeremys tank.

[bohlke]

Ok so I put everything that was alive into the sump and fuge. The mini blue legged hermits have decided to hang out on the tank floor in the bubble trap. Any suggestions for getting them out of there?

[melev]

Chop sticks? :)

[bohlke]

Another question, I only have one skimmer and currently it is on the sump/fuge. Its hardly generating any skimmate now that its only working on 15G. I did a 33% water change on it last night just to be safe (things can go bad fast on 15G). I dont plan on hooking the sump back up again until the tank has cycled (or not) and all of the water parameters are stable. Do I move the skimmer back and forth as needed or do I need it at all while the main tank recovers? I am going to buy something that will let me run carbon more effectively than before, would that be good enough for the items in the sump with water changes every other day? I am also looking at upgrading my skimmer, just not sure if I know exactly what I want right away.

[melev]

I'd put the skimmer in the main tank and actively run carbon in your sump. If you don't feed the corals, the water quality should stay relatively stable if the livestock isn't declining and muddying the waters.

[bohlke]

Sounds good - I have a phosban reactor coming tomorrow and I plan to run carbon in the sump. Ill move the skimmer to the main tank after that. I think that my skimmer is underpowered for my tank so I am going to upgrade and put the existing skimmer in my QT/Coral prop tank once it is setup. Looking at an EV-120, anyone familiar with the EV line from AquaC?

[melev]

I used an Ev-200 on my 55g for two years. Great skimmer.

[bohlke]

Space is the real issue, right now its a PITA to remove the collection cup as the skimmer is right under a support beam. I was hoping that the collection cup for the EV was shorter since it is so wide (compared to the remora). If I change the direction of the entire sump I could resolve that issue but it only gives me about 24" of height to work with.

[melev]

The EV I had didn't need but 1/4" to lift it up and off the riser neck. That made it very easy to remove and clean it daily.

[bohlke]

Ok - well I have all the rocks in after being treated again and rinsed, its about at the 24 hour mark and the tank parameters are:

Salinity 1.025
pH 7.7
Ammonia 1.5 mg/l
Nitrate 10ppm

I still have not moved my skimmer to the main tank, will it help at all or should I just wait and do a water change?

[melev]

Ammonia isn't horrific, but be sure to post what the readings are again on Friday.

pH is a bit low, but tolerable. I would get that skimmer into the main tank now to remove the flatworm toxins.

[bohlke]

Ammonia is 1.5 mg/l
Nitrate is 25 ppm

Should I use carbon or the skimmer to get the toxins out? I am assuming a water change will be required soon.

[reeftanker2004]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9232068#post9232068 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jakealien
What are these worms and are they poisonous?

Bristle worms are just small (sometimes large) worms that hide in the LR and the substrate. For the most part they're beneficial to the tank but if there is an outbreak, they're a pest.

The toxins were emitted as far as I can tell b/c of the dead worms in the tank decaying. I don't think they're poisonous although they might secrete something for protection.

[reeftanker2004]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9256709#post9256709 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bohlke
Ammonia is 1.5 mg/l
Nitrate is 25 ppm

Should I use carbon or the skimmer to get the toxins out? I am assuming a water change will be required soon.

I think you should throw everything including the kitchen sink at the tank. The carbon/skimming combo will be very helpful to you at this point. Those parameters need to be restored and skimming/carbon plus water changes is your best way to do it.

[bohlke]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9257026#post9257026 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reeftanker2004
Bristle worms are just small (sometimes large) worms that hide in the LR and the substrate. For the most part they're beneficial to the tank but if there is an outbreak, they're a pest.

The toxins were emitted as far as I can tell b/c of the dead worms in the tank decaying. I don't think they're poisonous although they might secrete something for protection.

It was a chain reaction, the flatworms died, let out the toxins, and then the hoards of bristle worms started dying adding to the problem. The snails and shrimp died, and then I started pulling things out of the tank (sigh).

I am starting over, here is the new thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1047993

[bohlke]

I saw a flatworm today. I am wondering if I should does the tank again. I havent seen anywhere near the amount of flatworms that was in the tank before. Thoughts?

[KIZNASH]

Hey sorry about your tank, was wondering if someone can answer this question about my sand. I lost my tank due to Hurricane Katrina, I managed to keep my sand in 2 5gal buckets. should I BLEACH it? just rinse it like melev is telling you? or just toss it out?

[bohlke]

I would just rinse it, how long has it been in the buckets?

[KIZNASH]

Dead sand has been in buckets since the begging of 2006, Reason I asked is beacuse 1 LFS told me to bleach it then dechloronate it, and 2 other lfs told me toss it. Not that im cheap, obvousily in this hobby I dont see how you can be. Dont understand why it wouldn't be safe to use again.

[melev]

I would wash, wash, and wash it again. Then spread it out in a thin layer over a tarp to bake in the sun for a day or two. Then it would be safe to use.

bohlke, siphon out that flatworm. No stragglers!

[KIZNASH]

Sounds like a plan thanks you guys, will try this weekend.