Meet knives!

[Pea-brain]

Hello all! I would like you to meet knives, my male yellow P. Ciliata. I got him yesterday and he is about 1 3/4" long. and yes I have confirmed he is a male.

A pic of him diggin
IMG]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/Pea-brain/knives03.jpg[/IMG]

A few more pics of him digging

IMG]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/Pea-brain/knives01.jpg[/IMG]
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/Pea-brain/knives02.jpg
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/Pea-brain/knives05.jpg

A pic of his tank
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k308/Pea-brain/kniveshome.jpg

Knives is currently living with 3 3striped damselfish. I believe he is missing both of his raptorial appendages. but I may be paranoid. I just cant see them. He also has 4 spots on his abdomen/carapace. they are white rings around a slightly dark almost brown spot. This is a sign of a molt right? I hope its not dredded shell disease. He is also trying to find a burrow. I put a 2" pvc pipe in there but I couldn't get a full "U" shape. I plan on getting some more 1" pvc later. The dead corals you see are piled into a cave I hope he uses. what do ya think?

[Aliie]

I have heard good and bad things about these things. Are you away if they are dangerous to clowns or gobies?

[Pea-brain]

full grown P. ciliata (about 4") can and prolly will eat any fish around its size. It is a spearer mantis. For fish a better bet would be a small smasher like Neogonodactylus wennerae, which preys on thin shelled snails and crabs.

[justinl]

most of the "bad" things people tend to hear about mantis are untrue. for example: I have a 1 inch mantis, it killed my picasso trigger!! ... no. that's physically impossible. They're highly evolved bu they're not mini Godzillas. And not all make that clicky/snappy noise, and the vast majority can't break through glass.

[mattyice]

haha i wouldnt put it passed my peacock to kill anything i put in there, at 1" it will be food for any picasso though

i just witnessed my very ****ed off peacock smash a hawkfish that had a much smaller brain and mouth then it thought in half like it was a piece of cake

[Pea-brain]

Still Can't see his rapts. When I look I can see his 3rd thru 5th legs, 3 pairs, shaped similar to a scopions stinger. Above that is 2 little sticks, and above that is his head. I think poor knives is knife-less! But the sticks seem well formed, which may mean he has molted once since he lost his rapts. It should take 4 molts. Anybody have a guess about how long it will take between molts for a 1 3/4" P. Ciliata? I'm guessing about a month. And I think he may be about to molt too.

[Thurge]

Actually its quite possible for a small mantis to kill a trigger. I believe it was Dr. Roy that related a story about a Clown Trigger that was trying to eat a mantis that was in a tight burrow. The Trigger wouldn't leave it alone and every time it came to the mantis burrow it got smashed in the face. I can't remember if it was a broken jaw or an infection from the abuse but the trigger died either way.

[Aliie]

YIKES! I think I'll pass on the evil little thing. Maybe later down the line when I change over my last freshwater tank.

So they target fish and snap them........ do the peacocks do the same thing?

[deboM3]

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/

Check out this webpage for more information on mantis shrimp.

There can be broken down into two classifications: Spearers and Smashers.

The peacock is a smasher, where as the one pictures, a P. Ciliata is a spearer.

The spearers mainly feed on fish, as they use there spears to impale the fish. The smashers mainly feed on shelled things, as it crushes the shells.

[DanInSD]

Mantises are not sentient (although they are intelligent) so labels like "evil" are rather anthropomorphic. It is safe to assume that their use of raptorial appendages is not "malicious", and is instead for one of:

- Meal catching / extracting
- Home building
- Defense

In the case of the clown goby trying to eat the mantis, I think "defense" applies :)

Dan

[Aliie]

Thanks for the link. I can't view it with IE so I'll take your word for it.
Smashers....hummm, still seem deadly to gobies and clowns. I'll look for another site on them, just so I can learn about them before making up my mind entirely.

[justinl]

Allie, if you're nervous about your fish, get a smasher and put it in a species tank. If you think you want a little more movement in there go ahead and add a damsel. Damsels are sort of the test subject with a mantis and have just about the best chance of survival with a mantis because they are fast and don't perch on rocks or the bottom as much as other fish like gobies. I advise a smasher because they will generally leave fish alone.

[Aliie]

Okay..... I think I might. Never had damsels because everyone says they are aggressive and so many people dislike them. I won't mind finding out how it acts with them.

Is there anything I sould worry about eating it?

[deboM3]

Heres another one that I think you can view with IE that has some good general information about stomatopods. It has some nice close ups of the spears, and smashers. =0]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-03/jf/feature/index.php

[justinl]

Allie, how big a tank are you going to use? A damsel will probably be less aggressive in a bigger tank. At any rate I would stick with one mantis, then add one damsel later and let things sit for a while to see what happens. If you wish to add more fish, it is up to you. If the damsel is aggresive towards the mantis and the mantis isn't fighting back at all, you could remove the damsel and trade for another if you wish (might just be that particular damsel).

[Pea-brain]

errrr.....no offense, I love goin off topic once and a while, but could we please get back on topic? At least one post regarding the topic at hand?

Allie, It's great your looking in to getting a mantis. They are awesome creatures. However it would probably be a good idea to do a little homework. your on the right track, but a hour or 2 of fact searching can be the difference between success and failure. At minimum I would suggest a 10 gallon. Neogonodactylus Wennerae is a great species from what I hear. You can get it from Tampabaysaltwater.com for about 50$ including shipping. Look at Roy's list (sticky up there) for information on different species. BTW get firefox. it's better ;)

[justinl]

hahaha you're right pea-body, that did go way off topic... my apologies.

I would like to comment on how long it'll be until knives molts but I really don't have enough experience in that department... where's Dr. Roy?

Do you use a feeding stick to feed? If you keep the stick at a distance it may force him to use the dactyls to catch food... if he has none he'll probably have to swim right up to the stick to get food. At any rate, they'll probably grow back anyways so I wouldn't worry much about it.

[Aliie]

Oh, you are right Pea-brain!! I'm sorry, had no intention on highjacking your thread, sorry again. :) Firefox is better? really!!
Thank you for being as tolerant as you were!!!!

Thanks for the info you provided about yours. I saw yours, which is yellow, my fav. and it got me wanting one like yours. You have inspired me to give it a go. Have you seen his missing appendages yet?
I like your set up for him BTW! I'm going to use a 10 gal like you did for the one I get. If knives molts will you post a few pics please.
I shall take your advice about doing the research.
Debo: Thank you for the link, great info site.

[Thurge]

If Knives really doesn't have either dactyl you will need to feed it the best foods you can and as often as it will eat. Dr. Roy has said that if a mantis looses both dactyls they will put all their effort into molting and there will be less time inbetween molts to facilitate quick regeneration. When they loose only one they don't typically accelerate their molt pattern.

[justinl]

hmmm thurge brings up a good point. That does make sense. What do you feed knives anyways? I think if it is using the food to accelerqate the molt pattern I would feed it frozens once a day (remove what it doesn't eat and mind the water quality) and soak every two days in a supplement. And also supply with a few live snails/hermits.

[Pea-brain]

I have decidedto feed as much as he will eat each day. Partially because of the loss of limb and partially because I'm afraid those spots are shell disease. One serving of a piece of frozen shrimp (I have started soaking in selcon) and one serving of a small freeze dried krill (wardley's brand). He usually consumes the entire thing. He has 5 live snails (a margarta and 4 nerites) and 2 Live hermit crabs. I hope you meant for cleaning crew because he s a spearer and it is unlikely he'd eat them anyways 0.o I also noticed that he seems to have constructed a few burrows under his cave rocks. I noticed one yesterday but he does't come out of there at night and may be his secondary burrow. I've tried teasing him into snatching but he just swims up and latches on. And I do use a feeding stick. I bought a protien skimmer which should be arriving later today. it is a visi jet. I've heard good and bad things about them, but regardless it should be enough for what I need it for.

[Pea-brain]

Sorry the computer I'm using is being annoying and won't let me post more than a certain amount. Anyways, glad to hear you like him. He is pretty neat. Unfortunately it is likely he will change colors with his next molt because of the change in environment and lighting. Anyways, if anyone has pictures that show a clear view of what the raptorial appandage looks like so that I can confirm he is missing them, I would appreciate if you posted it. The two sticks out front are hairy and I thought they were used to facilitate feeding at first. If those truly are the the nubs of the mighty dactyls they once were, then it should only be 3 more molts before he is back at full force.

[Thurge]

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/images/p_ciliata2.jpg
Yuo can see a piece of the dactyl in this pic from Dr. Roy's mantis species page.

And here is another species but it shows the whole arm.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/arthropoda/crustacea/malacostraca/eumalacostraca/royslist/images/r_komaii1.jpg
Picture taken from the same place.

[Pea-brain]

yeah oops. I looked at that real quick but I guess the dactyl blended in with the whole appendage. And I do not see one of those. I was afraid that what I thought was one of the pairs of the 3rd-5th arms might be one of his rapts. I wonder how he lost his arms anyways? Anyways I just tried to feed him (he hasn't eaten in almost 24 hours) and he hasn't eaten the shrimp yet. He won't leave his burrow. I'll leave the shrimp in there another hour. I believe this is sign of a molt :D

[justinl]

oh right i keep forgetting P. ciliata is a spearer... stupid re-evolutions. Ah well, any tank can use a clean up crew regardless.

By far the most likely event where he lost his dactyls was during a molt. If a dactyl is lost its usually in a molt because they're such big arms to fit through such a small opening. They rarely lose two at a time though... maybe it was just a really bad molt.

If he is molting (be sure, but not intrusive) don't bother feeding him and freaking him out by checking up on him every five minutes.

[Pea-brain]

unfortunately I spoke too soon. I noticed a small green lump with antennae sitting on the bottom. I took my feeding stick and....its half of a hermit. Apparently it molted and when it was out and about knives grabbed him. The corpse's abdomen was gone. Then I looked over and he ate the shrimp I left in there too. I shoved the corpse outside his burrow and its gone now. And he's being active again.....

[Pea-brain]

ok, I am confused. I found the body of a hermit in my tank yesterday. I found my other hermit today. That means I can account for both my hermits. I had only 2. I have no live rock. so Where did this hermit's corpse come from?? It was way bigger than one of my hermits is right now. And knives won't eat. he is digging around alot. I think he's getting ready to molt. He was desperately trying to move a a piece of colored glass about the diameter of a quarter and the thickness of 3 or 4 quarters stacked. It was funny but I ended up sticking my hand in and moving it in front of his burrow for him. Lil' wimp :D

[Pea-brain]

Well, I'm a thorough idiot. I just recieved my visijet protien skimmer, and I realized that it is way too big for my tiny ten gallon. I'm sending it back monday in exchange for a fission nano skimmer. Knives still won't eat

[Pea-brain]

He finally molted. All his spots are gone. I should remove the molt, I know, but I don't know how to get to it. I would have to tear apart his little den...:'( I think I also saw a new lump (Or maybe rapt?) under his carapace but I was fuzzy eyed from waking up and can't be sure and now he's behing a rock.... Update: I removed the rock, got the molt skin and put it back. His little pit under the rock is stil there, and I put all the rocks back (I t looks a bit different, but good enough) I decided to use my aqua gloves. The rapts may be still useless, but I ain't takin any chances :)

[deboM3]

cool man, great to hear. Im gonna pick up that P. Ciliata tomorrow. Hopefully it will turn out as good as yours did! You have givin me hope!

[Pea-brain]

Good luck with it. Like I said, knives had many spots, but none of them had progressed to that point. Near the end (last night) I noticed that the spot had gotten significantly worse. I was starting to get worried, but luckily he molted last night. In any case, like I said before, The mantis has a much better chance in your tank than in the LFS tank.

[Pea-brain]

Well I had a friend of mine over last night, and together we came u with a brilliant plan to subtly modify the visijet to fit my tank.....with a hacksaw. So about 4 hours later, after 30 mins in a freezing garage, some pizza, a huge duststorm in the tank, and the rest of the time figuring out how it was supposed to work, and succesfully breaking the flow gauge, I had a ugly black cycinder in my tank removing polutants :P On a more mantis related note, knives is doing fine, eating, and on closer inspection seems to be a little over 2" now!

[infalible-one]

use live not dead rock dan:D

[gemini aquarius(t)]

what grade are you in?

[Pea-brain]

lol sophmore. anyways the protien skimmer works :P and I would have used live rock, but I couldn't find a store near me that carried it. the dead rock works fine :D Maybe I can visit aquacorals soon and pick up a couple of pounds.

[gemini aquarius(t)]

wow thats pretty cool anyways i need more pictures to satisfy my knives craving!

[Pea-brain]

I'll get some more pics soon. Id like to wait until I can get hold of my digital camera before taking pictures. My mom's camera phone just doesn't do him justice :D

[infalible-one]

nerd

[Pea-brain]

shutup chris :P

[infalible-one]

i will not:strooper:

[infalible-one]

knives will molt soon.