Ready to give up and pull down tank

[jaredp]

I am very nearly ready to pack up my Reef Tank forever. (its not even a reef tank anymore).

My 75g is about 9 months old now, after upgrading from a 20g.
My 20g used to look like a reef tank, my 5 corals were flurishing, fish happy etc.

Looking at my tank now, all but 1 coral (brain-type) are dead, and even the brain is barely hanging on. The Live rock has NO purple on it at all (ok maybe 5% but thats usually non-visable parts).

The good part, my Fish 'seem' to be ok.

I would really really like some help to get my tank on track, so i actually like to look at my tank again. If i can't i will most likely pull it down.


Tank specs:
I have 2 larger Powerheads and 1 smaller pushing the water around, a HOB skimmer that i hook up every now and then (to one of the powerheads). I am running Metal Halides over the tank (2 x 150W 20 000K UV + 2 x T5 High Output 54W and 2 x Blue LED) at about 20-30cm from top of tank, approx. 8 hours a day both. Also there is a small-medium HOB Filter that i run Carbon bags in).

(might post some piccies later tonight)

[Indermark]

whats your water testing out at???

[drummereef]

There's definitely something going on with water chemistry. Do you test frequently? What is your water testing currently?

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Alkalinity
Calcium
pH
Temperature
Salinity
Phosphate
Magnesium

[jaredp]

I can't test till i get home in about 40 minutes, but the last time i checked it i think it was pretty much ok.

If it is the water, how can i stablise it?

Edit:
I only have tests for the following

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
pH
Temperature
Salinity


The other test kits seem hugely overpriced.

[TheORKINMan]

Are you dosing Calcium, Strontium, Idione and Trace Elements? Corals need that stuff to live.

[jaredp]

I have 2 Bottles, coral 'food' and live rock 'food' that i have been using, although im not sure what they actually do.

[Indermark]

I have never dosed Strontium and Iodine. This has been recomended, but only dose what you can test for, don't start throwing stuff in you can't test. Check your Phosphates if you can. Do you do regular water changes? Live rock food??? is this something new? Are you using an RO/DI water filter???

Ryan

[Tang Salad]

Stop using the coral and LR foods. They are just polluting the water.

If you don't feel like doing the battery of tests listed above, and I can't imagine that you would, then just do small (10%) water changes every 2-3 days. Do that for a month and things will improve.

[Tang Salad]

Also, get your skimmer running and tuned and run it 24/7. That's a necessity.

[drummereef]

I would agree with Tang Salad about stopping the foods. Expensive pollution, imo. Water changes will help, but without knowing the composition of your water everything is just a guess as to the actual problem. I would urge you to test and test frequently.

As for your coral problem I suspect high nitrates and possibly phosphates. Also low alk and calcium are probably adding to the issue. But without knowing the actual values its all just a guess.

Don't give up, with the right knowlege it's not that hard.

[kzooreefer]

did you have MH on the 20g? if it is new MH lamps is there shielding between it and the tank for the uv rays from the MH that will harm the coral? there should be glass between the MH bulb and the tank either in the lamp itself or over the tank.

[rustybucket145]

Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer Skimmer Skimmer Skimmer skimmer skimmer

Turn it on, crank it up and leave it on 24/7 always!!!!~! If it is functioning properly you will be amazed at the amount of crap you are going to pull out of your tank in the first few days!

Also do some water changes, I would start with something around 30%.

QUIT dosing EVERYTHING!!! you are just polluting your water.

Have you ever dosed Copper medications to the tank?

[kzooreefer]

i also don't see what corals you lost. are they ones that like the high intensity of MH lighting? if not MH can fry them if they are not place in shaded or indirectly light areas of the tank. mushrooms for one don't like intense MH lighting and need to be placed lower in the tank and out of the direct light.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Also, how old are the bulbs? Have you tested any salinity meters with a calibration solution to ensure accuracy? What are your daily temperature swings?

[Paintbug]

being the coralline algae is gone as well, i suspect your calcium and alkalinity have dropped to near nothing. that probably dropped the pH as well when is the time you did a water change?

[Travis L. Stevens]

Actually, I expect the Alk and/or Ca to be high. If he is dosing coral and live rock "food", then I would bet that it is chemical based and not actual food.

[corals b 4 bills]

Without your skimmer running 24/7 and coralline gone I would suspect one or two things

1). High Phosphates from over feeding
2). low alk/ca from lack of frequent water changes (IMO).

[Travis L. Stevens]

Skimmer or not, it would depend more on the amount of food, what type, and the amount of biological filtration versus how much organic compounds are being added to the tank. I doubt that Nitrates and/or Phosphates are the major problem. But I'm willing to bet that they will be detectable at fairly large quantities.

[chevegan]

i don't think he even has a skimmer. He didn't list it. Get a skimmer. Your biological filtration can't keep up with all the bio load. Spars feedings is a must. Also most corals don't need "food", they're photosynchetic and live off their xooxanthellae algae. I would also do frequent water changes till things get back on track. Especially important to you right now will be doing one large water change. 20-25% water volume. That way all the things you implement won't go for not. And again SKIMMER, unless you're doing weekly 10-20g water changes OR have 200lbs of LR your bio filtration just can't keep up. Hope this helps man, I was there a year ago too. Had to make some changes fast.

[illal]

get a calcium test and a alkilinity test..... i use seachem reef complete for calcium and seachem reef builder for alk ..... as long as your doing regular water changes then you should be fine as far as trace minerals......why dont you run yur skimmer 24/7??? also i would do as large of a waterchange as possible this should get your nitrates and phos down

[SeaView]

What kind of corals? How many and what type of fish? How much live rock? Does the skimmer fit the size and bioload of your tank?

[sterbrock1]

I don't test for anything. I do weekly water changes with RO/DI water and Instant Ocean. I have a skimmer on 24/7. Lights on for 12 hours. I also only have fish (6) and softies (filling the tank). I do not feed my corals or fish. Never. I have a 100 gallon bare bottom tank plus 30 gal sump and 55 gal refugium. Good luck!

[jaredp]

Hey guys thank you for the responses (even though my response now is a bit late).

I have my skimmer running all day every day for the past couple of weeks. I have just done a test nows on my water.

KH = approx. 179
GH = put it this way. the chart goes up to 12 drops (214.8 GH), i stopped testing at 22 drops and it hadn't changed color. so its way up there.

PH = 8.4
Ammonia = 0.75
Nitrate = 10-15

I rarely actually change water. I get a fair bit of evaporation, and i have to refill the tank now and then with unsalted water. Mainly due to the fact that mixing up fresh saltwater is hard to do. I have to fill my mixing container using a smaller container, carrying the water from my bathroom to the fishtank room (about 12 trips to fill the mixing container).

Please, be harsh on me. I really need help to make my tank a good environment. I am ready and willing to spend TIME and MONEY to make my tank healthy. If you have advice I AM WILLING TO TAKE IT.

I WILL take some photos tomorrow to show you my dire situation.

[fingersdlp]

Some thoughts:

You should always use unsalted water for top off from evaporation.
Are you using tap water? I hope you are using RO or RO/DI. If tap are you treating it for chlorine / choramine?

If you are serious:

1) Use RO or RO/DI water
2) Get a good skimmer
3) Do a big water change if you have been using tap and you get a RO/DI unit.

Really sounds like it is all about the water quality. You should not have any amonia or nitrite. You have some nitrate (not that big a deal) - but that tells me your biological filter is not keeping up. How much live rock and sand do you have?

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9490736#post9490736 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaredp
KH = approx. 179
GH = put it this way. the chart goes up to 12 drops (214.8 GH), i stopped testing at 22 drops and it hadn't changed color. so its way up there.

Actually, the Alkalinity is in ppm and not dKH, so if you have 179 ppm, then you have about 10 dKH or 3.58 Meq/L. This really isn't bad since it is recommended to be 7-11 dKH. But, you said that you stopped at 22 drops, so it's way up there. That means that you are probably having Calcium/Alkalinity problems just like I expected. What test kit are you using?

PH = 8.4
Ammonia = 0.75
Nitrate = 10-15

This is a problem. Any detectable amount of ammonia is potentially deadly. Try to figure out why you are getting ammonia, and do some water changes.

I rarely actually change water.

This is another problem. Even though you might have good nitrates and phosphates, there are other elements that need replinishing. Some people dispute that they will add chemicals to counteract the depletion of other chemicals, but it turns out that most of those chemicals will build up others. For example, if you were to use Magnesium Sulfate instead of Magnesium Chloride, the Sulfate will build up and potentially become harmful to your tank without water changes.

I get a fair bit of evaporation, and i have to refill the tank now and then with unsalted water. Mainly due to the fact that mixing up fresh saltwater is hard to do. I have to fill my mixing container using a smaller container, carrying the water from my bathroom to the fishtank room (about 12 trips to fill the mixing container).

You only want to top off from evaporation with freshwater. Salt doesn't evaporate, only water. If you have ever topped off with saltwater, I would make sure that your salinity is inline.

Please, be harsh on me. I really need help to make my tank a good environment. I am ready and willing to spend TIME and MONEY to make my tank healthy. If you have advice I AM WILLING TO TAKE IT.

There's no need to be harsh about anything. We all learn from out mistakes...or others. Just let us know what you are having trouble with, and we'll go from there. Since you are willing to pretty much start at square one, then do the following...

1) If you don't have any of these, please purchase the following:
Thermometer
Ammonia Test Kit
Nitrite Test Kit
Nitrate Test Kit
Phosphate Test Kit
Alkalinity Test Kit
Calcium Test Kit
pH Test Kit
Magnesium Test Kit

2) Test all the water parameters and post them on here as accurate as possible. Don't stop a test prematurely unless it is absolutely untestable.

3) Stop dosing EVERYTHING, and only top off with freshwater at the moment.

4) Make sure that you have general quality salt such as Instant Ocean or Instant Ocean: Reef Crystals. Not something like Oceanic, which is known for extremely high Calcium.

5) Mix up a batch of fresh saltwater that will change about 25% of your total water volume. Make sure that it sits for at least 24 hours with a heater and powerhead to make sure that it is well aerated and at the same temperature of your tank. Perform a water change the next day. **Note** While it is highly recommended to use RO/DI water. If you refuse to use it, it is your choice, but make sure that it is at bare minimum treated with a dechlorinator. If you don't have access to RO/DI water, you can purchase Distilled Water from a local grocery store. Try not to use Tapwater until you know what is in it. For example, I have a friend that has heavy amounts of copper in his city water.

6) After the water change, wait another 24 hours. Test all water parameters again and post the results.

[DarthBaiter]

If your bath room to fish room is too far, I would look into getting a pump and hose, or at least a "Python" to help with water changes.

[jaredp]

Thermometer - tick
Ammonia Test Kit -tick
Nitrite Test Kit -tick
Nitrate Test Kit - tick
Phosphate Test Kit - negative
Alkalinity Test Kit - tick
Calcium Test Kit -tick
pH Test Kit - tick
Magnesium Test Kit - negative

Ill go to the store today to see if i can get those two tests. I guess ill have to pick up another powerhead (they cost about $80 here :rolleye1: ) for mixing up saltwater.

Other than that, should i add more to more clean-up crew? (I have a funny feeling the bird-nose wrasse ate a few snails and/or hermits)

Lastly, i need a solution to get a bit more flow in the tank. I have a medium and small powerhead in there at the moment, and sometimes i see detrius(sp?) pockets on the sand sometimes. I did have my big powerhead (which is now on the skimmer) pushing water around, but it stirs the sand up.

[Travis L. Stevens]

FWIW, the Mag and Phos kits aren't 100% necessary, but well worth having in a pinch. They should last you a while.

$80 for a powerhead? Jeeze, where do you live?

[jaredp]

$80 for a powerhead? Jeeze, where do you live?

Australia (queensland). There is only 3 pet stores in town, 2 which sell saltwater fish (and products). Yes, $80 for a medium sized powerhead. $12 for 1 piece of Live Rock. The neighbouring town is 30 minutes drive, and a bit cheaper, but fuels costs mean im paying the same if i drive their to get it.


Anyway. I bought some distilled water from the grocery store and mixed it up, let it circulate for 24hours etc and changed it into the tank. I bought another powerhead to pick up circulation. I got 7 more snails and 7 crabs to help clean up the tank.

I'll have a digi. cam. tonight so i'll post some pictures and post latest water test results.

If things havent improved since last testing i will seriously consider bringing the tank down. I see all these wonderful tanks on here, coralline and corals all growing beautifully and its very frustrating that i can't keep the hardiest coral i could find, alive.

[DrBegalke]

more then likely you have ca/alk and/or ph problem, possible a nitrate one as well.

check out the reef chemistry forum for links to randy's articles for helpful info.

[jaredp]

Ok, i just tested the tank again.

Ammonia: 0.25 - 0.5
Nitrate: 15 (approx)
Nitrate: 0
PH: 8.6 - 8.8 (approx)
Phosphate: 1 - 1.5

I've been trying to find a RO/DI units but i don't think they are sold in the area. Also i went to the grocery store to pick up some more bottled water but they had none.

I have some photo's ill put up tomorrow morning (they aren't pretty).

[Travis L. Stevens]

You still haven't posted Alk and Ca levels. This is really important. In my opinion, it's more important than the Organic chemicals.

[jaredp]

I posted them on the 16th (on page 1)
------------
KH = approx. 179
GH = put it this way. the chart goes up to 12 drops (214.8 GH), i stopped testing at 22 drops and it hadn't changed color. so its way up there.
------------

Is that what you mean? I'll retest them tonight to see if they changed.

[jaredp]

Now you know why i cry. I can't keep the tank clean, no matter how oftern i clean it (i cleaned the powerhead and pipe on it 2 days ago).
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8797/249.jpg
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/5861/248.jpg
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8057/254.jpg

[saltydude]

Keep up the dilligent work jared, it will pay off. And everyone who helped him out with suggestions, you are awesome for that, so my hat goes off to you guys/gals.

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9525869#post9525869 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jaredp
I posted them on the 16th (on page 1)
------------
KH = approx. 179
GH = put it this way. the chart goes up to 12 drops (214.8 GH), i stopped testing at 22 drops and it hadn't changed color. so its way up there.
------------

Is that what you mean? I'll retest them tonight to see if they changed.

You didn't have the Calcium levels, and you said that you stopped testing, so that is an inaccurate number. What test kits are you using?

[FB]

Correct me if I'm wrong but GH is for freshwater only.

He said he got 179 for KH. Which is in range.

[Travis L. Stevens]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9531270#post9531270 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FB
Correct me if I'm wrong but GH is for freshwater only.

He said he got 179 for KH. Which is in range.

Correct. But with an unknown Calcium and such a highly elevated pH, then either the Calcium is way off, or the Alkalinity reading is inaccurate. Plus, he said that he stopped testing because it still hadn't changed. FWIW, the 179 would be in ppm and not degrees of Carbonate Hardness (or even meq/l).

[scuba4ever]

Jaredp ...Don't give up, We've all been there. If you want to see what happens when your tank gets taken over by glove polyps, just click on my gallery, Just don't give up...

[jaredp]

Ok. Yesterday i did another water change. I can only do about 10% water changes as the water i'm buying comes in 15 litre bottles, and they ONLY ever have 2 on the shelf. (so about 30litres for a 220/240 litre tank can't remember exactly).

I rearranged the rockwork to allow better flow around the rock, and to hit any dead spots. I re-tested my water soon after.

Ammonia - 0.25 - 0.35
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 10
Phosphate - 1.5ish (the colors are so hard to tell)
PH - about 8.7
KH (alk?) - 10dKH (179ppm)
General Hardness (GH?) - unreadable - i stopped after a while but i was up to about 50dGH (900ppm)

I've also lost a fish, a Coral Beauty. I've had him from the start (about maybe 2 years now). I got him back when i had my 75 litre tank.
He has been the hardiest and most lively fish i've had, and i only realised yesterday/the day before, that he was gone. I check and he didn't jump out, and i can't find ANY remains in the tank. I assume my large crab ate his body and the rest of hermits cleaned up.
I'm not sure if he died from my water conditions. They have been worse then they are now and he survived it. Maybe old age? Maybe the crab got him (i doubt it).

I did buy 2 new fish last weekend though. They were labled Sleeper Gobies (Pale bodies with Yellow heads). They are really good at sifting sand. They might even be mated pairs.

[jaredp]

Hey guys just checking in. Its been a couple of days now, and things have improved a tiny bit, but I'm still having trouble.

I added another Powerhead recently, and with my 2 main ones and a small powerhead to distrub the flow a little, the sand is BARELY staying put (ie. not getting blown around).
Yet, there still seems to be getting build-up on some rocks, whether it be detrius, or something else. Its quite annoying.

Im having a really hard time finding a RO/DI unit here in Australia. If anyone knows where i can buy one here, please let me know.

I have a bag of carbon and filter pad thing in my HOB aquaclear filter, yet the water still has lots of crap floating around in it. This is with the Skimmer running 24/7.

I really would like to get the tank at a stage where i can keep corals healthy. If anyone has more suggestions, it would be fantastic.

I found this on ebay, reckon this is an ok overflow? (other than the massive pricetag)
240x180x195mm - $110.00 + shipping
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/07/c0/63/15_1_b.JPG

[jaredp]

Just an update for anyone who was/is interested.

I'm seeing improvements to my tank! Hurrah!

The nasty dirt algae that was growing on everything seems to have slowed down. Its still there, but the snails and rabbitfish are slowly eating away at it.

I've also noticed a small amount of new coralline, and some other life growing on my live rock.

I also purchased a Brain Coral, about 20cm across half-sphere. I got it cheap from the LPS as it was suffering (had some skeleton showing etc). After 2 days, it is looking a lot better, the skeleton isn't showing anymore, and i feed it this morning as it had its feeders out.

Darn bottled water is hurting my wallet though :mad2:

[Gary Majchrzak]

All crabs are omnivores. I'd yank that huge hermit crab.
The Bird Wrasse might possibly damage corals, too.
The overflow you posted a picture of isn't your best choice. I would recommend not purchasing it.

[brccoins]

Congrats. Keep up the work and it will pay off. I was originally going to keep buying distilled water from my LFS but I found that in the long run it isn't very practical. I bought my RO/DI unit from drsfostersmith for $150 which doesn't seem too bad (link below). I believe they will ship to Australia no problem.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=12093&N=2004+113775