PDA

View Full Version : Bubble Tower


fio1022
02/22/2007, 07:49 PM
I want to build a bubble tower in my sump to TRY and eliminate micro bubbles.I saw this in another thread but did not want to hi jack it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1053339
Question- if I fill this chamber with bio balls(all will be under the water line) instead of live rock,will nitrates be an issue?
I'm thinking bioballs would be a better choice because they are uniform in shape and would fill the chamber better.

Keelay
02/22/2007, 09:52 PM
I have a bubble tower in my system. On thing I had to install later was a water break after the drain inlet. The water in the drain was coming out so fast and was laden with bubbles. This water jet shot right under the bubble tower bottom and let tons of microbubbles escape. The water break slows the water down and I get better bubble filtering

I don't have bioballs. I would think they would be a nitrate factory. They might create a water break, but you would be better off finding another way.

Brokeone
02/22/2007, 10:45 PM
What is a water break? Like a ball valve?

hahnmeister
02/23/2007, 02:26 AM
Actually, you dont want bio-balls in the tower, they will cause more bubbles to get through. Just wide-open water space will allow for the best pressure increase to remove the bubbles.

illal
02/23/2007, 09:16 AM
stay away from the bio balls if you need to breakup the rock with a hammer so it fits better ;)

douggiestyle
02/23/2007, 12:09 PM
completely submerged bio balls should be no different then any other surface in the tank. they should not trap any detrius. no idea on how they would work as bubble stoppers.

Keelay
02/23/2007, 01:37 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9312206#post9312206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Brokeone
What is a water break? Like a ball valve?

For a bubble tower (or any bubble trap for that matter) to be effective, the downward flow rate of the water must be slower than the rise rate of the smallest bubble you are trying to filter.

The bubble tower effectively takes the fast moving water coming down the overflow drain (let's say 1" pipe) and in theory slows the flow rate by expanding the diameter of the pipe (say 4"). Here's a sketchup of my bubble tower.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g93/skyedugger/drain_noise_bubble_trap.png

The problem is the 1" inlet pipe to the tower is centered and aimed straight down. When the water exits the 1" pipe, you want it to widen out it's flow pattern so that the water moves slowly down to the bottom of the tower. In reality what happens is the 1" water inlet pipe creates a high velocity jet that shoots straight to the bottom of the tower carrying bubbles with it. The water break is some obstruction that you place near the inlet inside the tower to break up and distribute this jet.

hahnmeister
02/23/2007, 01:55 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9315782#post9315782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
completely submerged bio balls should be no different then any other surface in the tank. they should not trap any detrius. no idea on how they would work as bubble stoppers.

they do trap detritus, and every surface in your tank, even inside pipes, is coated with nitrate producing bacteria. The main idea is to keep the surface area down. bio-balls that are underwater behave just like ones in a wet-dry, they just dont operate with as much efficiency since they arent exposed to air as much, which contains more oxygen, etc. They are poor as bubble stoppers though, as would eny object be in this matter. You really want to provide a wide-open, unobstructed space for the water pressure to rise and for bubbles to get forced out by their own bouyancy. bio balls, baffles, and rocks will only serve to mix bubbles into the water... think of it like the downdraft towers on an ETSS skimmer: the bio balls are used to mix the bubbles into the water, not get them out.

hahnmeister
02/23/2007, 02:11 PM
Keelay, bubbles getting into the system in the first place can be minimized by placing a valve on the bubble chamber right where the pipe meets the expansion chamber. This would make a backup drain a good idea.

douggiestyle
02/23/2007, 04:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9316753#post9316753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
they do trap detritus, and every surface in your tank, even inside pipes, is coated with nitrate producing bacteria. The main idea is to keep the surface area down. bio-balls that are underwater behave just like ones in a wet-dry, they just dont operate with as much efficiency since they arent exposed to air as much, which contains more oxygen, etc

as far as collecting detritus i should not have said doesnt. in comparison to live rock, horizontal surfaces, sponge filters, poly filters and other similar subtances the bio balls will comparitivly not collect detritus. especially in a high flow area. as far as acting the same as a wet dry filter only more poorly, i believe you are incorrect. it has been shown that bacteria that process nitrates actually live symbioticly with the other bacteria in the nitrate cycle. i am unable to find the article at this time, it was in advanced aquarist and the site for old artcles is giving me an error. anyways in a submerged enviroment the nitrosomas live above the nitrobactors and directly beneath them are the anerobic bateria. all living symbioticly. the nitrobacters are right up againest nirosomas because this is where their food is and on it continues. the anerobic bacteria are directly beneath the other guys because the other guys have created a perfect enviroment for them; low O2 and high nitrate. in this article they showed how the largest concentration of anerobic bacteria is directly beneath the other bacteria. using wet/dry bacterial filtration inundates to much O2. this is great for the nitrosomas and nitrobacters but terrible for the anerobic so it breaks the symbiotic bond between the three basic bacteria. this is the reason for the decline in the use of wet/dry filters. without the sybiotic bond you have nitrate disolved in the tank. the only way to get rid of it is with water changes, anerobic bacteria or algae/plants. anerobic bateria cannot live on the surface of things because the O2 will kill them and now because the nitrogen has been already converted into nitrate there is no bacteria to move the nitrogen into an anerobic area. so basicly it does not matter what type of surface, its the ammount of surface and where its at, and will it collect detritus and clog. im not trying to tell anyone how to run there tank. in fact i use a wet/dry filter (though plan to experiment without it). even using a wet/dry i am having none of the problems that people claim they will create. so much for the wet/dry bad theory. but i am always tinkering and plan to try without and see what happens. will also need a bubble trap as wet/dry is an excellent bubble trap.

as far as bubble stopping, i assume you are 100% correct and will keep that in mind but i am sure i will try many things. i have about 2g of bio balls laying around as well as plenty of live rock rubble. will also try nothing and plan to try using a foam filter.

Keelay
02/23/2007, 04:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9316878#post9316878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Keelay, bubbles getting into the system in the first place can be minimized by placing a valve on the bubble chamber right where the pipe meets the expansion chamber. This would make a backup drain a good idea.

I agree that adding a valve would increase the bubble filtering, but you will still get a jet of water exiting the valve outlet. That negates the purpose of the bubble tower. You want to get as close to laminar flow as possible.

Here's a diagram hopefully illustrating better my suggestion:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g93/skyedugger/bubbletrap.png

douggiestyle
02/23/2007, 04:52 PM
the water break is exactly what im using. i got the idea off the tide pool filtration system. seem to work well and also quiets everything. tide pools is slightly conical.

Keelay
02/23/2007, 04:55 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9318162#post9318162 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
as far as collecting detritus i should not have said doesnt. in comparison to live rock, horizontal surfaces, sponge filters, poly filters and other similar subtances the bio balls will comparitivly not collect detritus. especially in a high flow area. as far as acting the same as a wet dry filter only more poorly, i believe you are incorrect. it has been shown that bacteria that process nitrates actually live symbioticly with the other bacteria in the nitrate cycle. i am unable to find the article at this time, it was in advanced aquarist and the site for old artcles is giving me an error. anyways in a submerged enviroment the nitrosomas live above the nitrobactors and directly beneath them are the anerobic bateria. all living symbioticly. the nitrobacters are right up againest nirosomas because this is where their food is and on it continues. the anerobic bacteria are directly beneath the other guys because the other guys have created a perfect enviroment for them; low O2 and high nitrate. in this article they showed how the largest concentration of anerobic bacteria is directly beneath the other bacteria. using wet/dry bacterial filtration inundates to much O2. this is great for the nitrosomas and nitrobacters but terrible for the anerobic so it breaks the symbiotic bond between the three basic bacteria. this is the reason for the decline in the use of wet/dry filters. without the sybiotic bond you have nitrate disolved in the tank. the only way to get rid of it is with water changes, anerobic bacteria or algae/plants. anerobic bateria cannot live on the surface of things because the O2 will kill them and now because the nitrogen has been already converted into nitrate there is no bacteria to move the nitrogen into an anerobic area. so basicly it does not matter what type of surface, its the amount of surface and where its at, and will it collect detritus and clog. im not trying to tell anyone how to run there tank. in fact i use a wet/dry filter (though plan to experiment without it). even using a wet/dry i am having none of the problems that people claim they will create. so much for the wet/dry bad theory. but i am always tinkering and plan to try without and see what happens. will also need a bubble trap as wet/dry is an excellent bubble trap.


Doug, Thanks for the description about the nitrate producing bacteria. Great concepts. If you do run into that article, I'm very interested. Please post it here.

Keelay
02/23/2007, 04:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9318269#post9318269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
the water break is exactly what im using. i got the idea off the tide pool filtration system. seem to work well and also quiets everything. tide pools is slightly conical.

I had to learn this from experience. I tried the first way and had tons of bubbles making it out (from under )of the tower. I added the break and have had wonderful success with it. I agree. It is quiet, virtually eliminates salt spray, and significantly reduces microbubbles from the start.

fio1022
02/23/2007, 09:11 PM
I'm in the process of collecting ideas and materials to do this.
I have two 1" drains.Thinking of running them into a 2" cross fitting w/bushings to accept the 1" drains then down to a 5" pipe to bottom of sump.Top part of cross fitting will have a loose cap to vent air.
Any suggestion how to make and secure this 'water break'.Was thinking siliconing something in pvc but dont know what to use or if it will hold up.
Iwas also wondering if this design is going to act like a super charged skimmer.forcing bubbles up the smaller pipe.

BruiseAndy
02/23/2007, 11:11 PM
Why not put a T in the camber and some 1" 45's pointing opposite directions? Kinda how an air seperator in a hydronic system works.
Like this but the 45's are paralell to the T...kinda tried to draw it isometric.

http://members.aol.com/andybg8000/wheeeee.jpg

Keelay
02/23/2007, 11:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9321066#post9321066 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BruiseAndy
Why not put a T in the camber and some 1" 45's pointing opposite directions? Kinda how an air seperator in a hydronic system works.
Like this but the 45's are paralell to the T...kinda tried to draw it isometric.

http://members.aol.com/andybg8000/wheeeee.jpg
Sweet idea. I think it has potential if you can fit it all inside the tower.

DevilBoy
02/24/2007, 12:19 AM
I might have missed it, but what is a water break? And should you run this tower all the way to the bottom of the sump? what size pvc should the tower be?











<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9318241#post9318241 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Keelay
I agree that adding a valve would increase the bubble filtering, but you will still get a jet of water exiting the valve outlet. That negates the purpose of the bubble tower. You want to get as close to laminar flow as possible.

Here's a diagram hopefully illustrating better my suggestion:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g93/skyedugger/bubbletrap.png

Keelay
02/24/2007, 12:42 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9321437#post9321437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DevilBoy
I might have missed it, but what is a water break? And should you run this tower all the way to the bottom of the sump? what size pvc should the tower be?

No problem. The diagrams I threw together to illustrate:

(1) The left most drawing is a simple bubble tower with no water break . The fast moving water from the drain enters the bubble tower at the top and carries the bubbles generated in the drain and at impact with the water surface down under the bottom of the bubble tower. This narrow stream of water doesn't spread out when it enters the bubble tower, it continues in this narrow column to the bottom of the sump. This is undesirable since it doesn't filter bubbles as well as it could. This tower configuration however does eliminate the drains sounds and helps minimize salt spray.

(2)The right most drawing illustrates adding a water break. A water break is nothing more than some obstruction or mechanism to change the flow of the water entering the bubble tower. Slow the water down so to speak. It ideally should spread the flow so that the whole water column in the bubble trap moves down in it's entirety. This is the slowest the water can move for a given input flow rate. And therefore will provide the best bubble filtering.
This illustration provides the same level of quieting, but adds better bubble filtering and therefore lessens salt spray than the previous drawing.


The make the bubble tower effective the water column should be as wide as you can make it. It also should be as tall as possible. That being said, the water column height can only be as tall as your sump level. So yes the bubble tower should go down to the bottom. Add some teeth on the bottom (see previous sketchup diagram) for the water to exit out all sides.

I used 4" PVC from my 1" drain pipe. I'm have run this up to approx 500 GPH. I have not maxed it out to see what it can do.

DevilBoy
02/24/2007, 12:58 AM
ok sorta makes sense... would just a regluar T fitting placed upside down work for a break?

how did you make your connections go from the 1" up to your 4"

Keelay
02/24/2007, 01:24 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9321579#post9321579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DevilBoy
ok sorta makes sense... would just a regluar T fitting placed upside down work for a break?

It would be better than nothing. It will shoot two streams horizontally rather than one down. I think you're going to get some directed flows from the dispersement pattern when each of the two flows hit the side walls. I think that's why the previous poster suggested adding the two 45s (90s might work too). The swirling effect you create wouldn't "hit" anything. It might not make any difference. You could try it and mod it later if you need to.


how did you make your connections go from the 1" up to your 4"
This would be easier to show, but it's not too bad. I used 4" PVC for the bubble tower. I used a 4"PVC cap for the top of the tower. I drilled a hole in the 4" cap using a hole saw slight smaller than 1" MPT (Male pipe thread).

I used a 1" MPT to 1" Female Slip adapter. I used a heat gun to soften the edges of the hole i just drilled in the cap. I then screwed the adapter threads into the hole. The threads sink into the soft PVC and will form to the male threaded adapter. PVC will harden again after it cools.

I then drilled a 1/4 inch hole in the top of the cap for an air vent

There are other ways to do this. You could drill a hold for a bulkhead .

hahnmeister
02/24/2007, 01:35 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9318162#post9318162 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
as far as acting the same as a wet dry filter only more poorly, i believe you are incorrect. it has been shown that bacteria that process nitrates actually live symbioticly with the other bacteria in the nitrate cycle.
yes, with live rock they live in concert with each other. In wet-dry filters, fluidized sand beds, sponge filters, sand filters, etc... they dont, and the buildup of nitrates happens no matter what because all of the surfaces cant support the low-O2 bacteria to convert nitrate. Bio-balls, no matter if they are fully submerged or in a wet-dry, have the exact same bacteria and chemical process going on... the relative higher amount of oxygen in air just makes the wet-dry that much more efficient. Im not incorrect, and in a way, what you are saying is supporting what I am saying. Bio-balls behave the same in either setup... its just in a wet-dry they are able to generate/process that much more nitrate. The decline in use of wet-drys (nitrate buildup) is the exact same reason as why fluidized beds, sand filters, undergravel filters, sponge filters, etc... have all seen a decline and are not advised for use in a reef aquarium. Heck, even bio-balls are not a good idea in a reef for this very same reason. Its why CPR Bak Pak 1's were replaced with the reef-ready versions... the bio-bale became a no-no even when submerged.

What you are saying is correct about the bacteria, I just think you are applying the information wrong with respect to this media. The bacterial process you speak of only happens in rock and sand... or maybe a low-flow nitrate reactor.

Bio-balls = produce nitrates no matter what. I just dont get how you are saying im wrong because what you follow up for reasoning is supporting what I am saying. Im confused... I think you should step back just for a moment and take another look at how you are applying the information here. Im sure its just a matter of moments before the light goes off above your head and you see what Im saying.

i am unable to find the article at this time, it was in advanced aquarist and the site for old artcles is giving me an error. anyways in a submerged enviroment the nitrosomas live above the nitrobactors and directly beneath them are the anerobic bateria. all living symbioticly. the nitrobacters are right up againest nirosomas because this is where their food is and on it continues. the anerobic bacteria are directly beneath the other guys because the other guys have created a perfect enviroment for them; low O2 and high nitrate. in this article they showed how the largest concentration of anerobic bacteria is directly beneath the other bacteria. using wet/dry bacterial filtration inundates to much O2. this is great for the nitrosomas and nitrobacters but terrible for the anerobic so it breaks the symbiotic bond between the three basic bacteria. this is the reason for the decline in the use of wet/dry filters. without the sybiotic bond you have nitrate disolved in the tank. the only way to get rid of it is with water changes, anerobic bacteria or algae/plants. anerobic bateria cannot live on the surface of things because the O2 will kill them and now because the nitrogen has been already converted into nitrate there is no bacteria to move the nitrogen into an anerobic area. so basicly it does not matter what type of surface, its the ammount of surface and where its at, and will it collect detritus and clog. im not trying to tell anyone how to run there tank. in fact i use a wet/dry filter (though plan to experiment without it). even using a wet/dry i am having none of the problems that people claim they will create. so much for the wet/dry bad theory. but i am always tinkering and plan to try without and see what happens. will also need a bubble trap as wet/dry is an excellent bubble trap.

as far as bubble stopping, i assume you are 100% correct and will keep that in mind but i am sure i will try many things. i have about 2g of bio balls laying around as well as plenty of live rock rubble. will also try nothing and plan to try using a foam filter.

Keelay
02/24/2007, 01:52 AM
Here' s a couple of photos of the bubble tower. While I have two inlets, the 90 is capped since I no longer use it. I have the holes in the bottom of the tower drilled all the way around for the water to exit evenly. The bottom us completely open and sits on top of my DSB
http://members.cox.net/skyedugger/reef/IMG_5644_sm.jpg

http://members.cox.net/skyedugger/reef/IMG_5647_sm.jpg

douggiestyle
02/24/2007, 10:14 AM
No, I still disagree Hahn. I have not really contradicted myself, I am just stating that a wet/dry filter does not create the problems people claim. If it did then I would be having those problems. So there must be more to nitrate problems than just having a wet/dry
filter. I think you would agree with me on that point simply for the fact that people without wet/dry filters have nitrate problems. In addition, because I have a wet/dry filter and do not have nitrate problems then it is safe to say that wet/dry filters alone do not cause nitrate problems.

Still surface area is surface area. Moreover, high flow is high flow. Therefore, the more live rock and the more flow you have around it the closer you come to the parameters of a wet/dry filter, according to your suggestions. I think we would agree that is not the case. The argument could be made that live rock does not cause the problem because it is so porous therefore; it creates those dead zones needed for anaerobic bacteria. Well if they are dead then little nitrate will enter as well as the O2, now that is a contradiction. Yet, flow rates are frequently being increased within the tank. I do not believe that is the case nor would most people. lets say we perpetuate this belief that live rocks porosity is what makes its surface area ok. Then it can be assumed that any thing relatively nonporous added to the tank would create surface area similar to bioballs. Well this would create a contradiction for all those that have used less porous "base" rock, fossilized reef rock (Florida live rock), ceramic rock, homemade rock (the kind that many people are making that does not use rock salt to make it more porous) or limestone as base rock. Do to their lower porosity all these products would create the nitrate problems you have cited especially if they are in a high flow area. I think we would all agree that is not the case. Look at this http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium 10,000 pounds of limestone. That is 1/4 of all the rock (by weight) in the tank. No nitrate problems. So using all the evidence presented to us it can safely be said that increasing surface area with in the tank does not create a nitrate problem regardless of what its constructed of. At least that is my theory, a theory based on available evidence.


In addition, in regards to CPR, they may only be reflecting consumer demand. The fact that they removed the bio balls does not mean that CPR has tested their effect and found that the bioballs ruin the overall health of the tank. If it sounds like I am being vague, its because I am not sure on what this all means for the tank. That is why I also suggested that no one use my drivel to design his or her tank around. However, continue doing what you are doing as long as it works.

All this aside it is a moot point in regards to this thread because as you have pointed out, as a bubble remover, you have found that submerged bio balls work poorly. I trust that you are correct.

hahnmeister
02/24/2007, 10:46 PM
Wet Drys are notorious nitrate producers... just because you havent seen that result yet, or perhaps your LR is keeping up. People can have nitrate problems for a variety of reasons beyond a wet-dry, so to deduct that wet-drys must not be part of the problem is not accurate.

You need to talk with Bornemann, Calfo, or maybe Holmes-Farley. There is plenty of work on the subject... bio-balls were designed to convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrates. Its part of the process. Part of that process also results in the release of phosphates by the aerobic bacteria.

douggiestyle
02/25/2007, 12:02 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9327995#post9327995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
Wet Drys are notorious nitrate producers... just because you havent seen that result yet, or perhaps your LR is keeping up. People can have nitrate problems for a variety of reasons beyond a wet-dry, so to deduct that wet-drys must not be part of the problem is not accurate.

actually i said "it is safe to say that wet/dry filters alone do not cause nitrate problems."

not familiar with the phosphates. but it makes sense that if bacteria are breaking down complex molecules that contain phosphates, then phosphates would be released.
as far as bioballs being constructed for producing nitrates. yes and no. they where constructed to give maximum surface area for bacteria to grow on and allow maximum flow with the minimum of clogging. ping pong balls have been used as well as rock and sand. basically it has nothing to do with the type of bacteria as long as the bacteria will grow on the different sufaces. so im sure they made sure the bacteria grew on the media before marketing but i dont believe the media was engineered specifically for nitrosomas and nitrobacters only.

im just interpreting different findings and facts, ive never done any tests.

btw this is an excellent debate!

hahnmeister
02/25/2007, 07:14 PM
sure it has to do with the type of bacteria, or rather the state they are in. A media that has very deep pores can create the low-02 zones required for anaerobic bacteria that do nitrate conversion. Bio-balls and other media that dont have the deep zones for nitrate reduction cant reduce nitrate, so they can only get the ammonia to nitrite, and the nitrite to nitrate, but then thats it. Now, its possible that with bio-balls and LR, the LR is offsetting the nitrate being produced by the wet-dry, at least for a while, but the problem is that then you are making your LR less efficient. Really, the bio-balls arent doing anything that the LR cant do, and, there is no difference still between having bio-balls submerged or in a wet-dry... its just how much they do it.

fio1022
02/25/2007, 07:29 PM
Well,I tried and I tried and the micro bubbles win.
First design:both 1" drain lines into 1 1/2" pipe into 4" tower.By trial and error I varied height of water brake,drilled several vent holes,drilled additional holes below water line.All attempts produced micro bubbles.NG!
Second design:each drain line to have separate tower.Did same modifications as first design. NG!
I even tried a seperate one for the protien skimmer.NG!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/fio1086/CIMG0163.jpg
All 3 failed bubble towers
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/fio1086/CIMG0164.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/fio1086/CIMG0165.jpg
Final outcome

Unless I find a different design, back to the 'eFFin' filter sock.:mad:

douggiestyle
02/25/2007, 08:18 PM
is the sock working for you?

Snaphook
02/25/2007, 08:34 PM
Keelay....What are you using for a water break? Or what would you recommend using?

Thanks

thesaent14
02/25/2007, 08:49 PM
fio1022


please show mw a pic of the tank overflow i probably can help you now for every one i hope this help

this is my news DIY and how is the pluming to i was having lots of mycro bubles because my pump was to fast on the turne rate and the sump is to small plus i wass having to much noise on the overflow

tank pic
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/100_0728-1.jpg

sump
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/100_0729.jpg

overflow
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/pluming003.jpg

buble trap
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/pluming001.jpg
is use for the skimmer to
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/pluming002.jpg
mufler for the noise
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/pluming004.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/pluming005.jpg
how is plum

top
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/cubetank015.jpg
bottom
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/thesaent14/mu%20cube/cubetank016.jpg

any Q??????

fio1022
02/25/2007, 09:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9334599#post9334599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by douggiestyle
is the sock working for you?
Thats the only thing that minimizes them.
I know I have too much flow thru the sump but I refuse to throttle back.I love the circulation in the display tank.I just wish I could find a better solution.A bigger sump is not an option.

jmait769
02/25/2007, 09:11 PM
fio1022 - I came up with this setup for my system and there are no micro-bubbles.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/06090604.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/Sump03.jpg

On the far left is a 3" pipe inside an acrylic bubble extractor the drain empties into. I combined <a href="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=917381&highlight=bubble+extractor" target="_blank">Prugs Bubble Extractor</a> and <a href="http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=626771&perpage=25&pagenumber=1" target="_blank">Melev's solution to Micro-Bubbles</a>
into one to reduce bubbles and lower the noise.

I can also remove the above extractors and run a sock:

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/TopOffTank.jpg

HTH

Jay

fio1022
02/25/2007, 09:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9334925#post9334925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by thesaent14
fio1022


please show mw a pic of the tank overflow i probably can help you now for every one i hope this help




It has two megaflows in corners.1" drains and 3/4 returns.
I'm using a dart sequence as my main pump.I have it on a DIY manifold on it that is running a chiller,skimmer/refugium,and a modified mag canister filter.Chiller and mag are below approx.4' head.
Still alot of flow.

Keelay
02/26/2007, 02:57 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9334759#post9334759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Snaphook
Keelay....What are you using for a water break? Or what would you recommend using?

Thanks

I wasn't that inventive. After trying it without, I knew I needed something plastic to place in the way of the stream of water. I thought what do I have that is plastic that I can cut with my wood tools. I came up with an easy answer: PVC pipe. I ripped it in half with my table saw:
It looked like this when finished.
http://members.cox.net/skyedugger/reef/pipe.jpg

Then I cut it to length so that it would barely fit across the inside of the bubble tower. I literally had to jam it onto place. No glue or fasteners. It's just jammed in there. I might someday works loose. I'll know it when my bubbles in the sump suddenly increase.

Heres a crude cross section of the bubble tower.
http://members.cox.net/skyedugger/reef/bubbletower.png

This in now way is an optimized solution. There may be a better way to create a water break. I stopped working on it when the bubbles decreased to an acceptable level. I do get some bubbles out of it. it's less that 20x what I would get without it. Maybe more. Traversing the sump removes these few bubbles. No bubbles make it to the return pump.

My main goals were to eliminate both the noise and the salt spray from the bubbles rising and bursting (both big and small). The bubble reduction was a huge plus for me since my sump really handled them pretty well anyways.

douggiestyle
02/26/2007, 09:18 AM
may want to put a restricter on the pump output. a gate valve would work. that is if you think the pump is to much flow.

toddc76
02/26/2007, 12:33 PM
I am actually the person who gave the OP the idea to start this one. I have my buble tower full of LR rubble and if I completely close the return diverter my Pan Worl pump will push around 900-1000gph and my tower has no problem controlling 90% of the bubbles at that rate.

Is the LR in the tower a future concern for Nitrates?

hahnmeister
02/26/2007, 01:46 PM
No, no concern for nitrates, but it is working against you as far as bubble removal goes. You might want to try the bubble remover without the LR inside.

douggiestyle
02/26/2007, 02:42 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9339572#post9339572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by toddc76
I am actually the person who gave the OP the idea to start this one. I have my buble tower full of LR rubble and if I completely close the return diverter my Pan Worl pump will push around 900-1000gph and my tower has no problem controlling 90% of the bubbles at that rate.

Is the LR in the tower a future concern for Nitrates?

as long as the pieces are large/irregular enough and dont nest so as not to cause clogging. regardless of what you place in the tower the main goal would be to reduce the accumulation detritus/debris. if this occurs then you could have a problem with nitrate. the key would be to allow the debris to flow through the filled area so that it can be
a. collected by a mech filter that can easily and regularly be cleaned
or
b. be removed by the skimmer.
or a combination of the two.
time wise, the longer debris is allowed in the tank the longer it can remineralize and release nitrates into the water as it decomposes.

fio1022
02/27/2007, 04:04 PM
After alot of thought and pvc dust,I came up with this design.

Behold the Bubble Blaster 2000
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/fio1086/CIMG0167.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/fio1086/CIMG0168.jpg


Don't know if it's going to work.Planning on trying it out later tonight.

Keelay
02/27/2007, 08:31 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9350805#post9350805 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fio1022
After alot of thought and pvc dust,I came up with this design.

Behold the Bubble Blaster 2000
Don't know if it's going to work.Planning on trying it out later tonight.

Dude. \

That is some serious water breakage. Looks promising. I would love to see some pics of it in action.

fio1022
02/28/2007, 04:52 AM
Another one for the scrap pile.

douggiestyle
02/28/2007, 12:31 PM
there is nothing wrong with the sock filter. just keep it clean. should look into reducing flow through sump.

fio1022
02/28/2007, 05:13 PM
There is nothing wrong with the sock.I just hate the routine.I got spoiled from my last tank that didn't micro bubbles.Also didn't have nearly as much circulation.Trade off I guess.
I'm working on one more version of this before I throw in the towel or sock that is...

eameres
02/28/2007, 05:21 PM
OK, call me crazy, but why not just transition to a large diameter "U" at the end of the drain? Wouldn't changing the diameter and direction effectively force any bubbles to surface ? This would effectively create a "brick wall" in terms of a water break.

Keelay
05/01/2007, 05:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9360192#post9360192 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eameres
OK, call me crazy, but why not just transition to a large diameter "U" at the end of the drain? Wouldn't changing the diameter and direction effectively force any bubbles to surface ? This would effectively create a "brick wall" in terms of a water break.

It would work OK depending on how you implemented it. It would however likely take up more space than a bubble tower.

Another issue:
Salt spray might not be addressed very well either. I guess it depends on which "surface" you are talking about. The U-Tube would have a surface where the drainline entered the U-Tube and on U-Tube outlet. Bubbles on the U-Tube inlet would be fine. On the outlet however, would be brought to the surface but would still generate salt spray and maybe a little noise (hiss)