Can fish die quickly from high Ph?

[TriniStylez]

A friend of mine was having problems with his fish dying but had no idea why. I went to his house today and found that his PH was way too high...maxed out around 9 on the test kit! It was probably higher I think though. Anyways, he only has one fish left and wants to save it. The fish is gasping very hard (is this normal due to high PH). I helped him lower it a bit for now with baking soda and told him to go slow with lowering it...What else can I have him do?

Oh yeah, how quickly can fish die from high PH?

[TriniStylez]

Anyone?

[Paintbug]

adding baking soda will only lower the pH a little, while driving the alk high. but here is an article on high pH http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php#7 .

ps what kind of test kit are you using?

[Icefire]

Too high ph = low O2 I think.
Aerate the water.

[drummereef]

I'd say a fautly test kit is to blame, or they are doing some seriously wrong dosing. Need more info to find out exactly the reason.

Aerating the tank raises pH. co2 buildup is what usually lowers the tank pH.

[TriniStylez]

I have no idea what type of test kit he is using. I just helped him lower it a bit with baking soda and the fish immediately perked up and breathing became normal. I do know that this is a FOWLR tank and is tap water. I told him to check the ph of the tap water and he said it was very, very high also. I will tell him to try another test kit too I guess.

He said there is 0 ammonia and nitrites, which is why I thought the fish were dying and breathing heavy in the first place.

Apparently since lowering the Ph, the fish has been almost normal again...I need to try to figure out what is causing this for him though, as he really doesnt want to loose the last of his fish.

[reefdiva]

I have to agree,,it sounds like you need more oxygen in your tank:.. Make sure your powerhead is making the surface of the water ripple..If you don't have a skimmer: which keeps your oxygen level stable,,try at least to put an airstone for a few days until the surface water can do its oxygen/gas exchange..You must get the gases out and oxygen in. Quick fix: Is to do a large water change and get things more stable.

[mwwhite]

He's trying to lower his Ph right?

Aerating will RAISE Ph like drummereef said....

[drummereef]

The baking soda is only a temporary solution to the problem. It will lower the pH temporarily, but will eventually rise again. Check the testkit or test with something you have. Better yet, take some water to the LFS and test it. There's something else going on here we aren't seeing.

[TriniStylez]

Thanks. Looks like his last fish is on its way out. I dont know what hes going to do but I told him to start all over again...

I have not seen the fish since this morning but he says it is gasping under a rock and will not swim out at all. Says the PH has risen a bit again. I think this must be connected to the PH. I tested my tap water tonight, which is the same as his, and it was up around 8.8. My test kits are salifert and have been working fine, so we have a very high PH in our water right now! It usually tests around 6.8-7.

[PatMayo]

RO/DI water sure helps It's typically very difficult to get PH in the danger level for fish. Most folks have low PH problems not high. I would have the test results doubled checked. Personally I suspect something else.

Regards,

Pat

[TriniStylez]

Are you saying that the PH is not really that high? Like I said, we have both tested it with reliable test kits and gotten very high readings. As for using Ro water, I use it myself but I think it is totally unnecessary in a FOWLR tank and I will also be using tap water in my new one...For reefs, yeah, nothing but RO/DI.

So, he lowered the PH again tonight with baking soda and right away, the fish got off the bottom and stopped gasping, SO, Im guessing that it IS something to do with high PH...Dont think thats just a coincidence!

[reefdiva]

Aerating the water will help get the gases out of the tank< IMO this is more than likely why the fish would gasp for air,there is to much gas in the water..Now,its pretty much impossible to get to high of a PH. If you would please check,but alot of the "Man Made" Sea salts,,such as ReefCystal,etc. are already set at 8.2 to 8.4, this is quite normal, as usually a high PH would not affect your fish. Unless you immediately put the fish from a 7.8 into a 8.8.But once again IMO.,, 8.8 is not to big of a concern. Good luck and Happy Reefing

[Icefire]

I find strange that you drinking water is at 8.8, mine is a 6.8 right now.

My guess is Low O2 from too high PH, also Ammonia get very toxic in high PH.

[Paintbug]

has anyone read the link i posted earlier? high pH is not going to be cause by LOW O2 levels, it could be from low CO2 levels. again stop lowering the pH with baking soda, all you are doing long term is raising the alkalinity sky high. read this article http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php and use some seltzer water, or vinegar.

i to dont think that the high pH alone is killing the fish.

[markandkristen]

i think we need to know his whole setup what he did to start it and what hes doing. sounds like more than ph in my opinion.
water changes would be my first to get water back to somewhat normal

[reefdiva]

Water Change,,Water Change,,this is what I had agreed to in my first post here..its always a forsure way to get the tank back close to a normal level..the more the better..and then try to find the reasoning..city tap water should be at the medium of 7.0,but your salt mix will raise it to the company's set PH.,,thus 7.8 on up to reefcrystals at 8.2.

[L and L]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9322725#post9322725 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by markandkristen
i think we need to know his whole setup what he did to start it and what hes doing.

Exactly! Reading thru this, I thought the same thing. When trying to solve a problem, one should ALWAYS give all info about their tank system, additives, ...etc. The more the info the better.

We can make logical guesses all day with "my pH is high. why?"

[L and L]

Definitely read that Reef Keeping article. I just got through reading it and it was very informative.

Randy says:
The most benign way to reduce high pH is to aerate the water more. Whether the aquarium looks well-aerated or not, if the pH is above 8.5 and the alkalinity is not above 4 meq/L, then the aquarium is not fully equilibrated with carbon dioxide in the air. Equilibrating carbon dioxide can be much more difficult than equilibrating oxygen. Air contains very little carbon dioxide (about 350 ppm) relative to oxygen (210,000 ppm). Consequently, a lot more air needs to be driven through the water to introduce the same amount of carbon dioxide as oxygen. Perfect aeration will solve nearly any high pH problem, and will rarely cause any problem of its own.

[L and L]

And that wasn't his final answer on to solve high pH. At the bottom of the article under the title "Solutions to pH Problems", he talks about other ways.

[votek]

Yes

[r0bin]

I though adding baking soda raised ph?

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Didn't read the entire thread. Your friend needs to stop the baking soda for gosh sake and add Seltzer water. An make sure the tests are accurate. Take some water to the LFS and have them confirm the stats.

Baking soda temporarily raised the pH and then it drops. That is why I do not use baking soda. I always use plain Washing Soda.











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[L and L]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9325087#post9325087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin
I though adding baking soda raised ph?

Read the Reef Keeping article.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

[Frick-n-Frags]

OK, here's the straight scoop:

washing soda has pH9

baking soda provides a temp DROP in pH, then stabilizes at about 8.

the magic formula is about a 1:5 washing:baking soda for 8.3 pH homebrew buffer

since I drip kalk, I use only baking soda to pull the pH down from the kalk (calcium hydroxide pH12)
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I heard that at high pH certain forms of ammonia can occur that are extremely toxic. and possibl;y other chemical happenings enabled by the different pH level.

Not sure why higher pH would drive oxygen out of the water, but I don't know the details there.

[FunkieReefJunkie]

Dont forget the magnesium while were at it. Stabablizes pH and alkalinity.