Help I think maybe ich?

[robertparker]

I iintroduced a red spot blenny to my tank last night now this morning both my clowns have white spot s all over them and very labored breathing. What should I do?

[Sk8r]

WIthdraw all the fish to quarantine and start treatment. The clowns have it and the blenny may be a carrier.

Several points, which you may know and have done: be careful not to introduce water from the fish store to your tank. Quarantining new fish is a good idea, so you don't have to go through this. Blennies are ich-resistent, but I'm thinking the timing of this was no accident: they all have it.

After you cure your fish, they'll likely develop some immunity to the parasite: this is not a lead pipe cinch, but there is some thinking in the community that supports this notion. Your tank, however, now has ich: parasites have escaped into the sandbed.

THe way to rid your system of these is to leave your fish in qt and your tank fishless for 6-8 weeks [this is why we all say initial quarantine is easier! but at least you get to look at your fish in qt, while your tank just sits there occupied by snails and hermits.] THe parasites in your display tank will starve to death in that time frame, so that will cure your tank. Note: the treatment time for your fish will be significantly shorter than 6 weeks. You'll do a water change for them and bring them back to tank-normal in their quarantine long before the tank is purified.

Either copper or hypo would be the treatment of choice for the ich; do it only in a quarantine tank, and a quarantine tank is pretty easy to set up---just pretend you're doing a freshwater setup in the cheapest tank or plastic box you can get from Petco, filter and all: fill it with tank water---any parasite that comes with it will get killed by the treatment, so that's no worry, and the aged water will help condition your filter.

---EXCEPT don't run carbon in your filter: it removes the copper. Use only floss or sponge. And get yourself a bottle of test strips: test every day, every few hours if you have any doubt, to be sure you're not getting an ammonia/nitrate rise in that little tank. You can't do a water change while you're running copper---plays hob with the dosage; so having Amquel on hand is a good thing---it removes ammonia. If you're doing hypo, handling an ammonia rise with a water change is of course much easier.

Your fish will all live if you act quickly, as in today, early, and do the treatment right, plus monitor the tank closely. It's a PITA, but it happens. You might also feed them a little garlic pellet [Formula One Sinking Pellets with Garlic]: for whatever reason, it seems to help them throw off the parasite, sort of the way hot sauce clears your sinuses: I'm suspecting it increases their slime coat.

Good luck to you.

[robertparker]

I'm on my way to the LFS in an hour(that's when they open)hopefully they will recover. Should I put all three fish in QT? Which of the two methods you described is better? Does it matter?

[Jorgens]

WEll at this point your system is infested. You can treat your fish in a QT but your system, unless kept fish free for 2-3 months will always have ich. Hopefully, and this is the key is that your fish build an immunity to it. Unless you can get all the fish out of your display, it will always be there.

I feed garlic and vitamins to help with fish health and immunity. Your fishes immune system is what will help them beat the parasite.

Best of luck

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

I found this. maybe it will help

[Sk8r]

Definitely all fish in qt. If you're going to the agony of having your tank fishless for 6 weeks, you want to be sure you treat every fish that's been exposed: if you have any special needs fish, like mandarins, you're going to need to feed them specially, etc. Re which is better, I honestly don't know: hypo is easier on the fish, but copper I think is more effective---though it's a poison and may shorten the lifespan of the fish. I think I'd go with hypo, given a choice, also because I don't know the characteristics of that particular blenny and don't know how he reacts to copper---some fish react badly. And if you ask me the precise salinity level for hypo, I honestly can't tell you, because I've never personally used it. You lower the salinity gradually by the withdrawal of saltwater and the addition of fresh ro/di water, and you could start that process, then ask online for where to stop, and have the answer in a few hours. Your lfs might know that answer, too.

[rogart]

Sk8r has the right idea. This is the best and most consrvative method. One other thing you can and should do in the main display is raise the temp. This elevated temp speeds the life cycle of the parasite. If you have no inverts you can go into the high 80s and be OK, otherwise 85 is the absolute max. In addition to quarantine, do water changes it will help to reduce the density of parasites.

Some people beleive that the cycts of ich can live for months in the tank. Therefore, I would suggest before putting your fish back do a water change from the main display into the quarantine and wait a week if there is no reinfection you should be OK.

As far as chemical warfare, I prefer a 3-5min freshwater dip (matching PH), and then a slow hypo treatment. Do small daily water changes with fresh water. Check the net for how fresh to go (I think it is like 1.017). Do it over 3-4 days. Bringing them back to full salt should take twice as long. Just replace evaporation with the same salinity water as in the quarantine. I do not like copper or garlic, both seem to work, and both seem to come with potential side effects.

Now for my contorversial remedy. Bring the tank to perfect water conditions. Do regualr every other day 5-10% water changes siphoning the bottom for two weeks leaving the fish in the display. Removing them stresses them and they typically end up going through a cycle in the quarantine which is additional stress. My method, leave them be and reduce stress. The survivors will be relatively immune and after about 6months in the closed system the parasite population will naturally decay. This has worked for me and I have lost about 10%-30% of the fish, with 60% safe from future issues. This has worked for flukes and ich. Maybe evil, but survival of the fittest provides my system with healthy strong fish.

It is important to quarantine before ever putting a fish in the display, but it is not fool proof. Overcrowding will also have a huge negative impact. Good luck.

[wizzbane15]

Practically all systems have ich. The trick is to keep the fish from getting it. Copper works well but is bad. Hypo and FW dips are good and are relatively safe for the fish. Clown's are ich magnets to begin with.

Over time, feed to help improve immunity as being a regular thing. Garlic supplements may be good or bad depending on who you ask, but its effectiveness on the fish's imune system is good regardless.

[Jorgens]

aye I have to agree with whiz. I've seen people rip apart theere tank to QT there fish. Treat, and then end up with ich again in a year. Your better off keeping the health of your whole community up or you'll have a yearly project and an empty display 1/2 the year.

Even if you QT new arrivals there's something about ich that stays around. kinda like seeding your tank. the bacteria just appear!

The trick is not to kill the ich yourself. but to help the fish beat it off. Like when youhave a cold. you take medecine to help you with symptoms. not to kill the actual virus or bacteria. Your immune system does the work. If it didn't we'd all be dead from the common cold.

[rogart]

One thing that helps reduce the infection is to keep the tank temp below 80degF. I keep mine at 78. Sometimes in the summer the fish see 81-82 and there is always some cloudy eyes or sparadic white spots. When you get an infection drop the temp over a couple of days, it slows the life cycle and can reduce the infection. It also increases the disolved oxygen which alos helps to reduce stress.

[rogart]

Also, happy to see I am not alone.....

[Sk8r]

With all respect, ich isn't bacteria, it's a parasite, like fleas---very much like fleas. It's a small swimmer, has a reproductive cycle, goes for a period into the 'lawn', and reinfests. By allowing your tank to lie fallow, you're effectively killing one of its bases, starving it to death. It does help to have immune fish, because sooner or later a mistake brings it in again, unless you qt.

Personally, it's why I didn't bring in a non-goby-blenny-dragonet until my tank had a little age on it, because ich is very rare in those three breeds. But here's a case where the parasite either came in on the blenny, or rode a water droplet into the tank during transfer from his water...I'm assuming this blenny wasn't quarantined, in which case the disease might not have manifested, because blennies rarely manifest it, but it might at least be more dilute.

Ich for fish and red bugs for acropora corals are two of the most maddening plagues we have in the hobby. If you want to get a donnybrook started the in the forum, all you have to do is title a thread "Ich!" and everyone has an experience and a theory. It boils down to: keep your water as healthy as you possibly can, try to get rid of it as thoroughly as you can, try not to keep ich-prone species until your tank has some age and stability; don't overcrowd your tank; feeding garlic doesn't hurt; some swear by ozone---personally I don't use it; and mostly you just try to cope when the stuff turns up.
As a longtime reefer, I stabilize my tank first, keep only ich-resistent fish at first, or generally. I feed garlic whenever I have a new resident, I watch my params like a hawk [I keep corals] and I haven't lost a fish to ich or had to go fallow for, oh, 20 years.

THis isn't, understand, a claim to divine favor or superior virtue, just that a) I've been real lucky b) I look fish over very carefully for any blemish before I buy c) I keep a narrow range of fish [ignore the tang: he's on loan] d) and I watch params. In the great randomness of the universe, occasionally this isn't going to be enough and I'll get the plague, too. I assess how bad it is, what species it's on, and how deep a mess I'm going to be in---if it were, say, on the tang, I'd know I was in deep trouble, and I'd start pulling fish out. If it turned up on a rabbit, say, I'd say to myself, that's usually a short outbreak, I've only got gobies and blennies, and that's not going to be much of a problem, granted my water is really good. At that point I count bumps, and if they start gaining even by one or two in the next 12 hours, I'd treat it as a major problem and go for qt. It's just a hard, hard call how fast to react, but in the case of a new tank, it is definitely time to react fast and in a major way, imho, and that's the advice I'll give. A new owner and a new tank is a combo of early learning-curve and unstable water [nature of any new tank, no matter if Jacques Cousteau set it up] that just makes it safer to pull everybody and go for the Big Cure.

[robertparker]

As of right now I am very confused. First off I feel horrible for what may have been my fault. I have kept my water at the best params I can through weekly water changes rigorous testing everything I can do. Expense has never been an issue. I have done as much research as possible and still this happens! I don't know whether to QT or not? I got some kents marine garlic from the LFS added to mysis they will not eat it. LFS said not to QT adds more stress I am completly confused.

[Sk8r]

Boy, Robert, at this point I still say [new tank, by your sig] you'd be better off pulling everybody to qt and going hypo. One thing it isn't is Your Fault. Ich is just the plague, it's an animal like a flea, and it gets everybody sooner or later, even in the best of worlds. Your lfs is giving you one brand of thinking, I'm giving you another, and I don't blame you for being confused. I don't know how to weigh their advice, whether they're the sort that would be happy to sell you more fish if these die, or whether the guy in charge is an old reefer thinking, "It's not too serious and 50/50 they'll get over it on their own." What does it for me is that line 'very labored breathing,' because that says it's serious. If it were my tank, at that age, and I had clowns [nastily susceptible] involved, I'd go down to petco, get a megacheap tank, and pull them to hypo within the hour. If they're having trouble breathing then the parasite is in their gills, where spots don't show, and that's serious and can get worse pretty fast. I know by the questions you ask and the way you state your info that you're a good, conscientious reefer, and you ARE meticulous, so my advice is still---hypo. It's not going to do worse to them [granted you can catch them fairly expeditiously [and one method of catching fish is a fast drain of the tank, down to a small hollow in the sand at the front: works every time, minimal stress] besides which you need some spare water for the qt. If you worry about stress in qt, get a pvc elbow and put in there, and they'll hide in that. Otherwise the tank should be bare, and covered, in case of a jump. You don't have the overheating issues, without the lights and big pump.

The only possible caveat would be the outside chance that they have brooklynosis, not ich, brook being peculiar to clowns, and it doesn't respond to hypo. But brook manifests as a white film, not distinct pimples, and I trust your observation here that it looks like ich...meaning dots.

I sure wish you luck, whichever you decide to do. To make up your mind, try my method: watch them for a few hours. You need that qt tank anyway: might as well have it. But if the fish show one more bump on them over the next several hours or that breathing stays labored [they're not eating because they're having trouble breathing] I'm afraid for the outcome if you don't start treatment.

[robertparker]

Thanks Sk8r all I want is the best for my fish. My girlfriend gets on me for putting to much human quality on my fish but they deserve a good life like I do. I bought the QT tank I'm just waiting to see what happens both of them are swimming around now breathing still seems somewhat labored .

[robertparker]

Today being my day off I will watch for next few hours. Blenny is fine hope for best!

[Sk8r]

I think your blenny will be fine, no matter what. The clowns will be the question, and close observation is a good thing.

Note: when you rile up water by transferring, say, to a bucket and back, you can have ph shifts, which are worth watching, just to be sure how much. One of the things that happens in a very long acclimation is a ph change once the closed bag gets opened, etc, so that's always to watch if you start moving water around.

And we just had the emotional value and fish discussion over in another thread on euthanizing snails: my own vote is, if it's in my tank, it's on my watch, and I'll fight for its life, be it snail, worm, or fish. Not that I haven't done in game fish for the table, but if it's in my tank, hey, the world's got enough who don't care what they step on; me, I'll hitch-step to avoid a line of ants. The ich parasite, however, does NOT come under my "I'll protect its right to exist" rule. :) I'm sure it has a use in the wild. I even suspect corals eat it. But it's not a protected species in my tank....

[MarinaP]

I doubt that your clowns have ich. It is not a common parsite for clowns. Any pics?

Here is a link to QTing clowns

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288805

More info

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/fishdiseases.html

[SumpDiver]

Robert: The proper SG for hypo is 1.009. Anything above that will be Ineffective. It's safer to bring the salinity down slowly, but if you have a bad infestation you can do it pretty quick, even at a rate of two points an hour if you have to. This quick drop in salinity will kill your bio-filter, so you will have to really keep an eye on ammonia and trites. Keep the hospital tank bare bottom with PVC elbows for the fish to sleep in, no rock, no sand. Siphon food after every feeding and do water changes. Deffinately keep some Amquil-Plus handy for ammonia spikes, and you can use some of the bottled bio-starter products to build your bio-filter back up in the HT. TurboStart 900 is a good one. However, if you have to drop the salinity quickly make sure to use buffer to keep the ph stable. Bringing the salinity back up after treatment MUST be done much slower though.

After your tank has been fallow for about 6 to 8 weeks start bringing the salinity of your hospital tank back up very slowly, over a period of 9 days no more than 1 point a day using the infected tank water from the display, which should be clear of the parasite at this point. As mentioned above this is the best way to test to see if the display tank is ich free before putting your fish back in. If your QTed fish show no signs of infestation then you are home free. After this be sure to QT all new fish so you don't have to go through this again.

Good luck

[rogart]

Robert, don't worry everyone who has had marine fish has experienced some devistating parasite. Not your fault, part of the hobby. The trick is to get your tank the way you want it and then keep it healthy resist the "I want to add something". If the fish find themselves really labored catching them is easy and a fresh water soak will kill all the parasites. This is the one invasive measure I take. Just match PH with a buffer. It can be amazing how well they rebound. You can do this before putting them in QT too.

One warning, the cycle from parasite to cyst to eggs to parasite is about 2wks depending on temp. Each parasite can create 100-1000s of new free swimming parasites fluttering around looking for a host (I think they only have a couple of days before death). So a warning, in a couple of days all may seem well, this is the calm before the storm, then bam, birth, tons of white spots. The calm is the best time to siphon the gravel and try to suck up as many cysts as possible. After the first infestation the birth rate begins to offset and there is a constant onslaught.

This is why lowering temp helps it slows down the cycle. Lower temps are also easier on fish. If you remove all fish then drive the temp up in the empty display helps to birth and starve them faster, also ensures no cysts sit dormant throught the fallow period.

Whatever you do is fine. Just don't put chemicals in your display. Always quarantine new fish, and read as much as you can. Each system and fish seems to respond differently to different treatments. Do what works for you. Quarantine/Hypo works.

[Slakker]

The cycle is about 2 weeks, but it takes usually somewhere around 6 weeks as fallow for a tank to really be ich-free, with 8 being far more ideal as far as reintroduction.

I just wish someone would make a test kit of some sort for ich parasites...lol

[rogart]

There are two test kits, a puffer and hippo tang, put a fish in the tank, white spots - there is still ich, no white spots - all good.

[robertparker]

Well bad news this morning my male clown was dead and last night the blenny died I'm taking the female clown out right now for a freshwater dip shes barely holding on!

[Slakker]

:( that's really sad to hear.

Best wishes for your female, I hope she makes it. Were the animals in quarantine when they died, or were they still in the display?

If they were in the display I'd be absolutely sure to quarantine the female at this point and treat with the above mentioned medication.

Rogart...that's pretty much the most awful thing i've ever heard in my life...how irresponsible do you have to be to intentionally infest a fish with parasites?

[Sk8r]

Wow. SO sorry about that. I'm suspecting maybe it got into the blenny's gills.

[MarinaP]

You will kill the female with a FW dip. She is too weak to take it.

You introduced parasites (such as brook) with water from your LFS.

Ich does not kill that fast.

[robertparker]

Yes I have the female in a 5 gal tank. Treated it with Nox-ich(recommended by a local reefer)At this point I was willing to try anything. Thanks everyone for all the help I'll keep you posted on the female.

[rogart]

Slakker, Unfortunately too many people unintentionally use this method! It was obviously stated cynically.

I do agree with MarinaP, not ich, the life cycle is much longer and much less detrimental to clowns and specifically blennies. Unless your tank is not cycled or out of wack somehow.

However, I disagree on the freshwater dip especially with clowns IME. I have freshwater dipped four different fish with flukes and ich or brook (not sure but it was a clown). As long as the water is buffered properly and brought to the right temp a 4-5 min dip looks like it brings the fish to the brink of death, but an hour later each fish was actively swimming (keep in mind its not a cure just a reduces stress).

This actually saved a Royal Gramma once. (my very first attempt) It was on its side motionless on the bottom gasping so I figured I couldn't loose, dip, <1hr, happy fish, had it for three years until I moved the tank and it disappeared...

Some local experienced stores unfortunately do weekly to daily fresh water dips on high risk infected fish (i.e. tangs) to keep the profit machines healthy for sale. It doesn't cure them but it sells them!