Help Me Choose A Sump Design! 180 gallon

[drummereef]

Going to be upgrading to an AGA 180 soon. Need help picking a sump layout.

The sump will be a custom acrylic design (60x18x16). The return pump is a Pan World 100PX-X Rated at 1270gph. 1" MPT in/out.

AGA specs: Two 1" drains and Two 3/4" return bulkheads.


What sump design would you choose and why? What size plumbing would you use for the drain line and return from the pump?



http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h215/brettvoelker/Sump1.jpg http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h215/brettvoelker/Sump2.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h215/brettvoelker/Sump3.jpg

:)

[Overland04]

Hey Drummer,
I have to go with the plumbing set up number 1...and the reason is that is the same setup Ive been using for 4 years and I love it. I have 2-3/4" drains and a 3/4" "T" to 2-1/2" returns. I run a little giant @ about 1300 gph and it works perfectly! because of the size of the sump the time the water reaches the opp. side there are no bubbles to get pumped back into the display. Great design and if you want pictures I can take some for you.
Good luck!

[drummereef]

Overland04 - Please post some pics if you have them, or pm them to me.

[drummereef]

^^^

[Overland04]

I'm at work now but ill try to get some pics when I get home tonight. when are you going to start the actual construction?

[drummereef]

Great, thanks! Don't have a date set, but it will be soon.

[reef_dude76]

Not to throw a monky wrench into the works, but I have a few questions.

What kind of system is this going to be? FOWLER, Softy reef, LPS, reef, SPS reef, mixture?

What kind of lighting are you planning on using?

I ask becasue I also have a 180 that is mainly an sps tank and I don't use a refugium of any kind. This is why I ask what kind of system you plan to keep. I have my sump setup with both drains draining into the first chamber of my sump. This is the skimmer chamber. I did it this way so that all the dirty surface skimmed water is sent to the skimmer chamber first to be skimmed. This is for maximal "crap" removal. Water flows out of the skimmer chamber through a bubble trap an into the next chamber where I have the intake to my calcium reactor, alot of live rock rubble to boost bio filtration, and a canister filter full of carbon to run when I need it. Water goes from there into my return chamber and back to the tank. This design lets me siphon detritus that settles into the sump out and doesn't allow it to get traped by a refugium.

The reason I ask about the lights is depending on how strong they are, where the tank is located in the house, how good your ventilation is, and what your weather is like, you may need to consider plumbing a chiller in the system which may affect your return pump selection. This might affect pump size, where you place it and how you run the plumbing.

Just a few things to think about.

[littlefish72]

plumb it so it goes through the fuge first.........that way stuff settles out of the water and is filtered by the fuge........then the protein skimmer then the return

[drummereef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9398989#post9398989 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reef_dude76
Not to throw a monky wrench into the works, but I have a few questions.

What kind of system is this going to be? FOWLER, Softy reef, LPS, reef, SPS reef, mixture?

What kind of lighting are you planning on using?

I ask becasue I also have a 180 that is mainly an sps tank and I don't use a refugium of any kind. This is why I ask what kind of system you plan to keep. I have my sump setup with both drains draining into the first chamber of my sump. This is the skimmer chamber. I did it this way so that all the dirty surface skimmed water is sent to the skimmer chamber first to be skimmed. This is for maximal "crap" removal. Water flows out of the skimmer chamber through a bubble trap an into the next chamber where I have the intake to my calcium reactor, alot of live rock rubble to boost bio filtration, and a canister filter full of carbon to run when I need it. Water goes from there into my return chamber and back to the tank. This design lets me siphon detritus that settles into the sump out and doesn't allow it to get traped by a refugium.

The reason I ask about the lights is depending on how strong they are, where the tank is located in the house, how good your ventilation is, and what your weather is like, you may need to consider plumbing a chiller in the system which may affect your return pump selection. This might affect pump size, where you place it and how you run the plumbing.

Just a few things to think about.


All good points to consider. This is going to be a mixed reef with a few select SPS. Most likely montis. I haven't totally decided on lighting yet, but thinking 3 250 watt DE Phoenix 14k on HQI ballasts with Reef Optix III reflectors or 3 250 SE XM 20K on HQI ballasts with lumenarc mini reflectors. Flow in the tank will be 2 tunze 6100's on the controller.

[littlefish72]

so my vote was for #1 if you swich the fuge and the skimmer

[jer77]

I'll vote for #2 because you get the best of both worlds. Most of the return water goes to the skimmer first, which it should, but some still spills into the fuge. This way some of the unskimmed overflow water goes directly to the fuge for greater pod and macro growth, plus you can adjust the flow.

If you switch the fuge for the skimmer in #1 the fuge will build up too much waste and your skimmer won't work as well as it should. Numer #1 isn't a bad plan having all water go through the skimmer first, but you won't be able to control the flow to the fuge and there will be less pods in your fuge too.

#3 seems the same to me as #1 except you can control the flow to the fuge.

[drummereef]

The feed line to the pump seems rather long to me, in #2. Probably going to be 2 1/2 feet of pvc from the return to the pump. Is this ok? Don't want the pump to cavitate.

[reef_dude76]

Ok, given that you are going to try and mix biotopes, then you may actually benefit from running a fuge. These kind of decisions are hard to make without first knowing what you are trying to accomplish.

Example, I would not make a sweeping statement that everyone needs a fuge or that a fuge should be incorporated into all systems. It has a specific use and as such, should be used in specific applications. In my case, I don't want a fuge, why would I, I'm trying to grow sps corals, thus I need to keep my nutrient levels lower. So that begs the question, where are sps corals found in nature and what environmental factors influence thier growth? SPS are typically found in nutrient deprived forereef areas exposed to very intense, swift currents. They need the currents for respiration and removal of waste, the bulk of their nutritional needs are met with photosynthysis by zooanthelle i.e. their high lighting needs, also high nutrients (organincs, nitrates, phosphates) can hamper growth, thus those that keep sps strive to keep these levels at zero, or as low as possible. In my case, the fuge would act as a nutrient sink, trapping detritus, which I am trying to remove as much as possible to prevent nutrient buildup and thus make it harder for me to accomplish what I am setting out to do.

In the case of softies and some LPS species, they are found in backreef and lagoonal areas where the current is less and nutrients are higher. Thus, a refugium certianly wouldn't hurt this system through its trapping of nutrients as the corals are found in higher nutrient areas.

The big question to answer about fuges is why do you want one? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you growing pods for fish food. Do you have certain species that you want to isolate from the main tank?

The point of all this is to get you thinking about what you are trying to accomplish. When you know what you are trying to keep, know what water peramemters and nurtitional source you are trying to provide for your system, the simplier it is to design your plumbing and answer questions like should the water from the tank flow to the skimmer first, the fuge first, both at the same time? etc. etc.

[drummereef]

Very informative, reef_dude76! I mostly want it for chaeto grow out and a place for pod production. Honestly, this is my first sump and/or fuge all together. As you can see in my current tank, it is a 40 gallon sump-less system. This will be a fairly large upgrade for me and I'm trying to do as much research ahead of time to make it a smooth transition. Thanks for your insight. :)

[reef_dude76]

What you may want to consider is a "hibrid" refugium. When I hear the word refugium, I think of a part of the sump (or maybe a separate tank all together) that has about a 2-3 inch think sandbed, LR, and macro. The area is lower flow, and functions to allow pod growth, isolate certian species from the main tank, allow for minor (and I mean minor) nutrient export through macro growth, provide macro growth for herbavores in the tank, and expand biologial filtration in the system.

To me a hybrid fuge utilizes the LR and macro, provides many of the same functions as I mentioned above, but does it without a sandbed. This would let you remove the macro and LR occasionally so you could vaccume the bottom of the chamber and remove detritus.

If I were to choose and try to plumb this, I would have between 2/3 and 3/4 of my flow going to the skimmer chamber on one side of the sump, and 1/3 to 1/4 of the flow going to the fuge on the other side, with the return in the middle. You could also plumb it with all the drains into the skimmer chamber first, then the fuge, then the return. Trust me you would still get plenty of nurtients into the fuge chamber.

[afex]

#2 works best for the needs of the fuge, namely dirty water skimmed directly off the surface of your display. being able to control the amount of flow to your fuge is simply a bonus.

[bnhd3]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9400569#post9400569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by afex
#2 works best for the needs of the fuge, namely dirty water skimmed directly off the surface of your display. being able to control the amount of flow to your fuge is simply a bonus.
#2 definitely. i had one like #1 and it was ok. my newest one is setup like #2 w/ a mag 9.5 return. here is a picture or two:

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/bnhd3/completesump2010explained.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q134/bnhd3/completesump2011.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

[reef_dude76]

To answer your question about what size plumbing to use, I would use 1 1/4" schedule 26 or thin walled PVC. You can find it at Lowes. That is what I used with my setup and I love it. My return is a Little Giant 4MDQX-SC with 1" in and out. If you hold up a piece of 1 1/4" thin walled PVC to a piece of 1 1/2" schedule 40 you will see that the ID is within an 1/8" of being identical i.e. you can get roughly the same ID as a piece of scedule 40 1 1/2" in a smaller overall size PVC pipe. This allows for less head pressure on the pump for better flow, and give you a smaller overall size pipe to plumb under the tank.

[jer77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9399925#post9399925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
The feed line to the pump seems rather long to me, in #2. Probably going to be 2 1/2 feet of pvc from the return to the pump. Is this ok? Don't want the pump to cavitate.

This is a good question. The more piping, elbows, and other plumbing you have on the input side of the pump the more restriction on the flow you'll have. Cavitation can occur when this restriction cannot keep up with the pressure required to pump out the water. The chance of cavitation becomes greater when plumbed to multiple outlets like you have.

To solve these problems limit the number of bend on the input side, and definately don't have an elbow close to the input. You can also increase the diameter of the inlet plumbing. So by doing this you shouldn't have any cavitation.

Also IMO skimmers kill pod life so limited life will actually make it to your fuge in plan #1. Especially if the sump flow rate equals the skimmer's pump flow rate. This is probably pretty close for your system. This means that all of the water drained to the sump will be processed by the skimmer, if done as in #1, with little water bypassing the skimmer. With little water bypassing the skimmer then only limited amounts of pods will make it to your fuge. Not to mention the water will be clean and nutrient poor, which will not facilitate macro growth.