High Kh More Than 20

[poissonist]

what may or will happen if KH MORE THAN 20 ALL THE TIME; ALL OTHER PARAMETERS CORRECTS.
theory and pratic experience would be usefull

[boxfishpooalot]

I think you would have a hard time maintaing calcium at normal levels because it will precipitate on heaters and directly from the water more likely. That seems like a high number that nothing will live in. Or at least be stressed.

[poissonist]

interesting so why do you think so many bad things???!!!
I experiment and avoid to speak if i do not know. I HAVE more than 4O fish and so many corals and animals I can not count plus crevets and copepods and zooplancton and everything is good. In a little red sea max. I CHANGED EVERYTHING BUT THE GLASS OF COURSE.mORE THAN 140 ANIMALS FOR M2....
So i just need to know if people experiment high levels of KH AND WHAT THEY SEE.
Only supposition i do not care. if specialists of chemistry can ansxer me it would be interesting. I have no precipitations because i play with acetate and chlorures.And i have very (unbelivable for most people) high rates of co2 AND ph is 8.2.

[WaterKeeper]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9401894#post9401894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by poissonist
i play with acetate and chlorures.And i have very (unbelivable for most people) high rates of co2 AND ph is 8.2.
Are you dosing vinegar or some other acetate containing materials? If so that may explain the unusually high alkalinity levels. During the course of metabolism of acetate, and other organic materials, hydroxides are produced that react with the carbon dioxide to increase alkalinity. It is a delayed effect and is not seen if testing is done shortly after additions. High dosages of vinegar can suppress pH while increasing alkalinity to abnormal levels. See solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry) for a complete discussion.

You'll have to forgive me but I do not know what a chlorures is.

[bertoni]

I agree that adding the acetate will increase alkalinity. I don't know of any data on the effects of elevated levels like that, and I'd probably avoid them since they are unnatural and might cause problems, with little upside that I can see.

[KEOKI]

My KH/ALK reading is around 32. Can anyone help me lower it?

[WaterKeeper]

Wow, I have to believe that somehow that reading is wrong but the article I linked above will explain what to do. How long has it been like that?

[poissonist]

ok i saw before this article. interesting but i use tropic marin test. i hope it measure only what they say. latter i will test salifert and will see the difference.
i use MgOH2 for laboratory and white vinegar 8degree. I MIX white vinegar while i put hydroxyde until ph is 8.2 AFTER i take only the transparent liquid and it is added with dosing pumps 24 TIMES/DAY.
In those conditions what would increase my alkalinity kNOWING that it decreaseS each 3-4 DAYS slightly and while i increase 10 mL MORE injection each day and i have no precipitations.
mY PREPARED WATER IS 13KH USING AQUARIUM SYSTEM REEF CRYSTAL.
So what happen with large amounts of acetate magnesium and calcium introduced slowly to aquarium water 24/24Hours???

[poissonist]

i also use chlorures calcium and magnesium just because i introduce NaOH TO MAINTAIN precise PH with no variation(day and night).Without it would be 7.9 AND SCIENTISTS says corals can not syntetiz calcium at this Ph.I USE very small quantities of NaOH AND I DO NOT PERTUBATE IONS EQUILIBRIUM AND WATER CHANGES AUTOMATICALLY SO OTHER IONS ARE NOT DEACREASING.( my result is close to balling method result)

[Habib]

Without it would be 7.9 AND SCIENTISTS says corals can not syntetiz calcium at this Ph

Perhaps you are referring to some experiments in which the pH was lowered but the alkalinity kept constant.

In such experiments the carbonate concentrations declines but by using a higher alkalinity the carbonate value will be high again, albeit the bicarbonate value also.

[poissonist]

i only refer to what i do not to other people experiments. So if you put 10 mG/L/DAY OF CALCIUM OR MAGNESIUM PER day with acetate or more maybe, i would be interested to know if your bicarbonates increase a lot...
By the way do you know other possibilities to put Ca and Mg OTHER THAN CHLORURES,acetate, citrate, gluconates, CaOH2,CaO,Mgo, Mg0H2, kalk reactor and hydroxyd reactor????

[bertoni]

The more common way to dose Mg is via MgCl and MgSO4.6H2O:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-07/rhf/index.php

Dosing magnesium acetate will raise carbonate hardness.

Calcium can be dosed as CaCl.

Calcium and alkalinity can be dosed together via Kalk (CaO or Ca(OH)2), or by dissolving CaCO3 in a reactor. Calcium acetate is another possibility.

[jnarowe]

WaterKeeper: I just read the artiicle you posted above "solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems" but it doesn't seem to really discuss any solutions. My alkalinity has been climbing for the last week and is now above the test level of 16 dKh. I turned down my kalk stirrer a couple days ago and that did not seem to help. I have just turned off my CO2 to see what that does, but I am concerned about why it has been climbing in the first place. And the canary this time? My favorite encrusting monti with blue polyps is showing STN at several points.

I realize I will have top pull the coral out and do a little surgery, but I need to get to the root cause of the alkalinity spike. It seems from Randy's article that it could be too much calcium reactor, but I can't quite come to a conclusion.

Other parameters to note:

pH is stable at 8.06 - 8.16
Ca is stable at 420 ppm
Mg is stable at 1400 ppm

I have had an increase in coral growth as the alk has gone up, but the coraline algae is killing me!! Any thoughts??

[WaterKeeper]

Are you only dosing the clear supernatant KW solution? If you stir KW duing dosing you carryover calcium hydroxide fines into the display when the topoff is added. Over time that can cause all sorts of problems including high alkalinity and, later on, high pH. In automated system you want the KW stirrer off for about an hour before the top-off enters the tank. Just an hours stirring is all that is needed to pretty much saturate the topoff so a simple timer can control the process.

[jnarowe]

I have wondered about that...Right now I stir every 250 min for 4 min. The doser pump divides up the daily water needs by 150 and doses a small amount that many times. The doser is also controlled by a float switch so it won't come on unless water is needed.

What I am not sure about, is how to change the way I control the stirrer. I have a very tall kalk stirrer and the theory was that even while it is stirring, no fines get to the output, but I understand your point. I am definitely dosing while the stirrer is in action. I can't really change the way the top-off pump works because of the way it calculates the make-up water. Any suggestions on the stirrer? I am currently controlling it with an ACIII Pro.

[WaterKeeper]

I was under the opinion that the ACIII was fully programmable with multiple timers. If so, I'd batch the KW and stir for an hour or so, then turn off the stirrer and let sit for a hour. Following the settling period, I'd begin dosing the saturated solution to the tank without stirring until the next day's batch was to be made.

It really doesn't take too long to dissolve KW, so a two hour stir should be plenty and once the solution is made up it should last for several days without loss of potency. Continued stirring throughout the day serves no purpose that I can think of.

A gallon of fresh water will dissolve about 7 grams (a little over a teaspoonful) of lime at saturation. After that no more dissolves. So let's say you add 2 gallons per day of topoff water. You add 14 grams per day of lime into the main tank, about .2 grams per gallon.

But if you add solid lime directly to the main tank each gallon in the tank can dissolve 7 grams; that's 35 times as much as you would just adding the saturated solution. For that 70 gallon you could conceivably add 1.85 pounds in a single dosing. Now, of course, you don't have that much solid lime involved but even with lesser amounts you can end up with a serious overdose causing those elevated alkalinity results.

[Rhodesholar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9402233#post9402233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I agree that adding the acetate will increase alkalinity. I don't know of any data on the effects of elevated levels like that, and I'd probably avoid them since they are unnatural and might cause problems, with little upside that I can see.


Bertoni I quoted you just so everyone knew what I was addressing. I don't disagree one iota with you. Ok that being said........

Albert Thiel back in the 80s was a big advocate of elevated Alkalinity and use to recommend DKH of 12-17. He said he saw no detriment and actually saw positive effects on corals all the way up 24 DKH in his tests. :eek: 24DKH and above was detrimental.

Now, no one come back and drag me over the carpet on this. :rolleyes:

I didn't say I recommend it, to try it or I think it is a great idea. Just stating information I read. :cool:

[poissonist]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR INFO ABOUT 24KH MAX.
I CLOSE MY QUESTION AND HOPE IT WILL HELP MANY PEOPLE ALSO.....

[bertoni]

Sorry, I sold my carpet. :) Higher alkalinity might have good or bad effects. I'm not sure what to expect, but I tend to keep parameters more in line with saltwater on general principles. I'm always skeptical about hobbyist tests like that, because they're so hard to run, but Albert Thiel might well be correct.

[Rhodesholar]

Bertoni, I like the carpet sale bit. :D

I guess this forum is more civil or at least more open to alternate theory. I mentioned this on another thread and just got destroyed, and they said Thiel was a quack to boot. I have read a great deal of his work and he is not dumb, and alot of what has become common place in the hobby these days he was doing in the early 80s. So at the very least he was a pioneer IMO,

The owner of the LFS I frequent has a signed copy of Albert Thiels Reef Notes which used to be the publication/articles he wrote back in the late 80s so that it is where I am drawing the info from.

He still is an advocate of Alk in the 12-15 DKH range for the record.

Poissonist,

It is my pleasure and I commend you on trying something against the "status quo" mentality. I read threads where reefers go over 15 accidently and the only detriment is to their nerves.

[jnarowe]

Well, I know from my persoanl experience that my corals react to too low or too high alkalinity. Also I note that the ones that have trouble are in front of the return line that is last on my manifold, supporting the idea that they may be getting irritated by fines. I originally had my kalk top-off going through a sock, until I found out the it was caking the sock so bad, none of it was getting into the tank.

The ACIII Pro does have essentially an unlimited timer capability, and I wil have to find out how to write the code to have a period of no flow during and after stirring. This is always a progession. We learn as we go, and I appreciate the input you guys have given me. Even lacking the solution, you have given me enough points to base analysis on. :)

[WaterKeeper]

I am not going to start a "Ladder Logic Forum". :D

And, if this forum seems more laid back, wait till I get in full gear. You'll be begging for Randy to return. ;)