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View Full Version : Should Vendors be requird to warn buyers about the toxic nature of zoos??


vijaym85
03/06/2007, 10:18 PM
Do you think that a potential vendor of this coral should be required to inform its buyers about the toxins contained in zooanthids. While many people are now aware of this coral's potential danger its still perhaps one of the most commly purchased and sold and one which a beginner is likely to come in contact with, since they are relatively cheap, hardy, abundant and fragable. Or is it a question of being bad for business.

melev
03/06/2007, 10:24 PM
Required? No.

Should they inform their customers that there is a risk? That would be nice. They should also inform us of any potential predators they may be sending along with the purchase, such as Sundial Snails, Zoanthid-eating nudibranchs, Zoanthid-eating spiders, flatworms, red bugs and more. All of these are detrimental to our system.

I think a good vendor will include a link or links to some excellent reading material either that they've written or that written by others so that their customer base will have success in keeping the livestock purchased.

Bebo77
03/06/2007, 10:28 PM
i guess.. never though about it...

vijaym85
03/06/2007, 10:32 PM
Sometimes I worry that the only way Vendors will ever become required is through a tragic event like a fatality. thankfully its very uncommon but if our hobby grows and the number of people involved increases the risk does as well. I suppose I feel its best that we police ourselves pro-actively prior to such an event which could result in potential governmental regulation. Also I have noticed more younger individuals are taking up this hobby as well which often means they maybe a bit less cautious or well read on the subject.

DrBegalke
03/06/2007, 11:19 PM
It will just take one injury and the "right" lawyer.... to have "warning: this coffee cup is hot" stamped all over zoas....

Ursus
03/06/2007, 11:27 PM
I don't think they could ever be required to warn people or be held accountable. That would be like requiring Home Depot to warn people about the dangers of breathing paint fumes whenever someone bought paint. Sure, the product has a warning on it but that was placed on there by the manufacturer. It's a little different with live animals.

A warning would be nice, but I don't see it ever happening. As long as people research they should be ok.

vijaym85
03/06/2007, 11:46 PM
But the person selling the animal kinda becomes the same as the manufacturer of the paint in essence since they are distributing to the public and since there is no patent or copyright needed. I mean can anyone deny right now that they never heard NEMO fish or DORI fish in the LFS before. There are people who are not likely as well read as many of us. I think enough people buy things without learning about them ahead of time to warrant such a warning. I cant imagine some kid's parents buying a coral as easily if they knew it was dangerous and there kids were around the tank alot or helped with the tank.

Buit I agree that until some law is passed there will never be any incentive for a company to want to illustrate an aspect that may potentially turn away a sale. Its just going beyond what is expected of them to do so at this point.

Sk8r
03/07/2007, 12:07 AM
I think that it makes good sense to do it: better lose a sale than to end up in a lawsuit---and as my lawyer brother said to me, anybody can SUE for anything; win, no, but SUE, yes, and it's expensive. Plus it's just plain courteous to advise a potential buyer in the initial offering: just say---palytoxin, etc. Please be advised this is a toxic substance naturally produced by this animal, and care is advised in handling both animals and water in which these animals have been contained.

littlefish72
03/07/2007, 01:50 AM
Althought most people never do this i believe people should do a fair amount of research themselves and learn the pros and cons, risks and benefits, and just over all care of any animal purchaced.......people should take it upon themselves to learn about their purchase because it is their money anyway and the internet is pretty much available to everyone

taketz
03/07/2007, 01:57 AM
It will just take one injury and the "right" lawyer.... to have "warning: this coffee cup is hot" stamped all over zoas....

Bad example IMO, but I understand what you're trying to get at.

As for a warning? It would be nice, but I'm also of the mind of you should be responsible for your own actions. Then again, those that are honest about the dangers and everything else Melev said, definately get some points in my book...

Frick-n-Frags
03/07/2007, 02:22 AM
You know, if I ever met the mcdonalds coffee lady in person, I would strangle her with my bare hands. I am still smokin over that one.

So, obviously I would also not require the seller to say that.

However, a good seller also gives useful information and advice along with the product to "add value" to his product/service

Me, I believe in natural selection. If you are too retarded to learn a little about just what you are sticking your hands in to, no tears here if the shallow end of the gene pool gets lightened a little.

taketz
03/07/2007, 02:29 AM
Like I stated above, most people comment on the 'McDonalds lady' without knowing most of the facts of that case and if they did, would likely change their opinion of the legitimacy of her claim. Feel free to PM me if you would like to know more about it, but just know that McDonalds was fully, and unequivically at fault.

Don't mean to de-rail the thread, its just that I can't let it just go by that easily after hearing the details myself...

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 05:54 AM
-Why i don't feel bad for Coffe lady but bad for a Zoo buyer...
1 Cofffe indicates its heat through steam which means its boiling hot. Most any human being have seen this form of heat transfer.
2 Coffe in the cup is warm to the touch. So obviously its warmer when its on your skin.

Coffe registers 2 very common senses, touch and sight, a zooanthid does not. It actually is a bit deceptive as in nature some extremely venomous or toxic creatures like to showcase their abaility to inflict pain through their color to avoid an altercation. But many zoos are rather drab and NOT ALWAYS metallic and highly colored so even if you were looking for a color signiture to warn you you won't get one as easily on a bland generally cheaper polyp.

One moe Analogy

Have any of you or your loved ones ever been to a doctor and was prescribed medication. Did that doctor or Pharmacist warn you of any form of drug interaction or special dietry needs to be taken while under said mediaction....

Should they assume your well read to figure it out yourself or should they warn you????

I don't know about you guys but I will take the warning! Just beacuse it's a hobby dosn't mean a warning should not be expected. Besides that we have warnings on say planters peanuts for choking hazard might sound silly or overprotective but it got there for a reason, then there is the warning over peanut allergy ... did everyone know about that allergy prior to it becoming a standard on many food packages because they were all well read on PEANUTS to not need the warning present???

taketz
03/07/2007, 06:09 AM
1. Coffee should not be served hot enough to physically graft your skin to your pants.

2. We are knowingly taking something from an exotic habitat and coming into close contact with it. We should do the appropriate research into the subject as to realize we are handling some of the most toxic organisms on earth.

In the end however, the risk to the aquariust is quite small given how many people have come into contact with such corals and how many have been seriously harmed.

andyjd
03/07/2007, 06:26 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9414218#post9414218 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Required? No.

Should they inform their customers that there is a risk? That would be nice. They should also inform us of any potential predators they may be sending along with the purchase, such as Sundial Snails, Zoanthid-eating nudibranchs, Zoanthid-eating spiders, flatworms, red bugs and more. All of these are detrimental to our system.

I think a good vendor will include a link or links to some excellent reading material either that they've written or that written by others so that their customer base will have success in keeping the livestock purchased.

My thoughts exactly

Andy

greenbean36191
03/07/2007, 06:28 AM
I think it's kind of silly to suggest that people be required to warn customers about the dangers of zoanthids. What about all of the other animals that contain palytoxin or otherwise pose a serious health risk to people or pets? Why single out zoanthids? The risk they pose is pretty minor.

I do think that cone snails and blue ring octopuses should be required to carry warnings, but that's only because they are known to kill people and pose a much more likely threat of evenomating a careless handler.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 06:44 AM
I guess I am going to walk a lonely road and have to stick by my my original feeling. I dont' think a seller is compelled to warm someone without there being a law. But I really think that is irresponsible of them to not want to if they have knowledge of it. I think I still feel sympathy for noobs. When you consider some of the more silly warnings, a warning on this, or on a lionfish or etc. seems a bit more justified.

This should not be the only way a person gets their info.. 90% of sites will tell you about an animals care so why not about caring for yourself..

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158730

Perhaps the next time you go to a doctor you will have them skip the warnings and attempt to ascertain the info youself. Why do you think all drug adds have a million disclaimers at the end. Its in the best interest of their company to warn someone rather than not. I am very happy hardly anybody has ever really become sick but don't think that should superceed proactive measures. But again until that day comes if ppl choose to not make it a big deal then they have a right to IMO. Its like Global warming I suppose. PPl will care only after it causes some form of irreperable damage.

Wrench
03/07/2007, 07:53 AM
I'm a firm believer in Darwin-ism. The dumb woman at McDonalds with the coffee deserved to get burned. If you're dumb enough to buy toxic zoos without reading up on them, and then eating them, you deserve to get sick. Natural selection at it's best. It's widely known that you are to wash your hands after they've been in the tank or if you've just finished fragging. YOu never know what could have found it's way in there from the wild. This country has too many laws and regulations to prodect the idiots.

On another note, I had read one of the articles in the Zoanthid forum that it was only certain members of the family that carried the toxin. True?

silvers
03/07/2007, 08:09 AM
not all zoas are toxic are they? I have been squrited directly in the eye and mouth more than one occasion. I paniced the first time nothing happened it has happened one more time sence then

HoopsGuru
03/07/2007, 08:13 AM
As mentioned, why single out zoanthids? There are many corals that produce toxic substances that are more commonly found in our hobby. Responsible handling should be common sense by now, wear gloves and wash your hands...launder any towels you handle. Folks should be doing this no matter what they are doing in a fish tank considering the amounts of bacteria, etc. that are present that are likely to be foreign for most doctors to figure out in an emergency.

kathainbowen
03/07/2007, 08:35 AM
I'm going to have to agree with Hoops on this one. Why single out zoos? What about all the more commonly sold venomous or stinging specimens? Lionfish, rabbitfish, anemones. I've even, on the rare occasion, seen fire corals and blue ring octopus. What about warning labels all over kitty litter and litter trays regarding the dangers for unborn children? Warning labels on nickels and pennies in regards to the dangers of children swallowing them?

The answer: because there is only so much room on product packaging and advertising that can be spared for things other than getting you to buy it.

Sadly, that's the truth. =/

sjfishguy
03/07/2007, 09:14 AM
The toxin of zoanthids is indeed very toxic, one of the most potent neurotoxins known, but the real risk to human is vastly overrated esp on this board. You have to have the palytoxin get into your bloodstream. You cant get it by touching them, this isnt the toxin that they use to sting, it is intercellular and is used a a chemical defense from predation. You have to smash the zoo to get to the toxin and then it must be absorbed into your blood stream through a mucous membrane or a cut. Then you have to have enough of it to affect your systemically to truly have effects (heart, lungs, etc.). Can you die from zoos, yes. Is it likely no. It is HIGHLY unlikely. You will more likely get a local reaction, irritation, tingling, etc. Do I wear gloves when I touch zoos, etc. No. Do I wear gloves when I frag my zoos (i.e. when some zoos actually rupture), Yes. There are things that pose a much greater risk to us than zoos.

sunfish11
03/07/2007, 09:54 AM
You know I used to think the same thing about the "McDonalds Lady," but after I read more about the case she was terribly injured by the coffee and I agree that it shouldn't be served hot enough to injure your genitals for life. I assume coffee is hot and that it will burn me, but not graft my skin to my pants, scar me for life, and ruin my intimate relations with my husband. How would you like to have your groin area burned that badly by a boiling cup of Joe in a flimsy cup with a crappy lid? I don't agree that this was a frivolous lawsuit after understanding the facts of the case better.

Anyway, I have seen warnings on dangerous animals like blue rings and lion fish, but never on Zoa's. I do think should be mentioned to the consumer, and sometimes it is. However, the consumer is responsible for some level of research as well.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 10:09 AM
Im did't mean to single out zoo's but to list every single coral, invert or fish in the title is a bit cumbersome. :)

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 10:11 AM
Im did't mean to single out zoo's but to list every single dangerous coral, invert or fish in the title is a bit cumbersome. :)
I choose to make them in the title because they are all over the plce, Every WYSIWYG has them, they are cheap, inexpensive, easy to frag and pass on so I felt that they would be something more ppl come in contact with then anything else.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 10:37 AM
TO pass off warning ppl by illusrating Darwnism is not really fair becuase our entire human society is in many ways sheilded from Darwin's theory. If natural selection truely existed, then for instance Medical sciences would be erradicated since those individulas who were destined to die were saved by medicine. A lot of individulas who NATURALLY were born or became unfit to society for whatever condition were given "unfair" oppurtunities and second chancs to be a real example of selection. We don't kill off a weak or retarded individuals in our HUMAN society, we shelter and care for them. How long do you think a sick animal with multiple predator will survive for.



A vendor should hold responsobility to their product. They don't today because their is no rule that says they have to but they still should do it themselves. When a car company realizes a safety issue with a car they have to go out there and issue a recall, and not stay quiet to hope nothing bad ever happens.
I think it comes down to a company's fear of driving away a sale

techreef
03/07/2007, 10:47 AM
if online vendors across the board generally ID rabbitfish as venomous, why not slap a generic toxin warning on the applicable corals? the rabbitfish won't kill you, just hurt a lot. palytoxin has no antidote and will kill you if, as sjfishguy pointed out, you get sufficient dosage in your bloodstream. IMO, they should have a warning, because what constitutes a sufficient dosage for a 250lb. guy will stone-cold kill a 90lb. person. Someone in the NYC area just died w/in the last 2 weeks when they were fragging zoo's. I believe they wiped their eye, or were squirted in their eye.

Zoos can be dangerous. They are very popular and hardy, ie newbie material. This hobby in general can be dangerous from many different organisms, but deadly toxins deserve a warning, no matter how unlikely the chance of death is.

boxfishpooalot
03/07/2007, 10:58 AM
I think there should be warnings for all animals that can kill you. People have died from zoas, dogs have died from eating them.

Nail biters are at risk too. Its not somthing to take lightly. Do you have kids that like playing in water? Yes the chances are small from dying but the possiblity is still there.

Personally "the most toxic neurotoxin known to man" is enough to put a warning sticker by the price tag for me. :)

terrymr
03/07/2007, 11:20 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9416844#post9416844 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunfish11
You know I used to think the same thing about the "McDonalds Lady," but after I read more about the case she was terribly injured by the coffee and I agree that it shouldn't be served hot enough to injure your genitals for life. I assume coffee is hot and that it will burn me, but not graft my skin to my pants, scar me for life, and ruin my intimate relations with my husband. How would you like to have your groin area burned that badly by a boiling cup of Joe in a flimsy cup with a crappy lid? I don't agree that this was a frivolous lawsuit after understanding the facts of the case better.

Anyway, I have seen warnings on dangerous animals like blue rings and lion fish, but never on Zoa's. I do think should be mentioned to the consumer, and sometimes it is. However, the consumer is responsible for some level of research as well.

I don't think anybody at mcdonalds could have anticipated that the lady would put the cup between her legs and remove the lid in a moving vehicle. Coffee should be brewed with almost boiling water and served as soon as possible. Using cooler water leaves the flavor in the grounds rather than in the finished product. While it was alleged that mcdonalds brewed the coffee at an unreasonably high temperature it was no different to what your drip machine at home does.

terrymr
03/07/2007, 11:22 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9414176#post9414176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
Do you think that a potential vendor of this coral should be required to inform its buyers about the toxins contained in zooanthids. While many people are now aware of this coral's potential danger its still perhaps one of the most commly purchased and sold and one which a beginner is likely to come in contact with, since they are relatively cheap, hardy, abundant and fragable. Or is it a question of being bad for business.

There seems to be a lot of difference of opinion as to whether there is even a toxicity problem with zoos in the reef trade or even whether captive specimens have any toxins at all - one theory I saw was that the toxic ones in the wild were concentrating a toxin produced by some other creature in their habitat.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 11:34 AM
For anyone into the Mcdonalds coffe incident.

To cause the BP of a liquid to be elevated greater than what it would be as a pure solvent you add solute. When the vapor pressure equlas the atmosphermic pressure the liquid will boil. If you lower the vapor pressue then you must consequently obtain a higher Boiling point temp.

There is still a threshold to which one can raise the normal BP of water from 100 degrees C.

The formula is
Boiling point elevation= proportionality constant of the particular solvent times the molality or ( Mols solute/ kg solvent)

sunfish11
03/07/2007, 11:58 AM
I don't think anybody at mcdonalds could have anticipated that the lady would put the cup between her legs and remove the lid in a moving vehicle.

I guess you have never spilled anything on yourself in the car before because I surely have. I also spilled a new cup of coffee all over myself at an airport and I had some 1st degree (like a sunburn) burns but I was not unreasonably injured by the incident. My pride was a little hurt because I had to wear the giant stain around for the rest of the day and people did laugh at me. ---It was funny:D

terrymr
03/07/2007, 12:53 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9417878#post9417878 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunfish11
I guess you have never spilled anything on yourself in the car before because I surely have. I also spilled a new cup of coffee all over myself at an airport and I had some 1st degree (like a sunburn) burns but I was not unreasonably injured by the incident. My pride was a little hurt because I had to wear the giant stain around for the rest of the day and people did laugh at me. ---It was funny:D

The complicating factor in spilling hot liquids on yourself is clothing. Burns usually won't be too severe on bare skin from things like coffee or water. But factor in clothing whichh can increase the contact time of the liquid with the skin as well as insulating it so it stays hot for longer. The insulating/absorbant properties of different fabrics vary considerably and so would the burns caused by spilling your coffee on your pants.

Todlers can get some really nasty burns from spilling hot liquids on themselves because diapers trap heat like nothing else.

ionredline0260
03/07/2007, 01:04 PM
toxic? I never knew that..like to humans or fish..

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 01:07 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9418420#post9418420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ionredline0260
toxic? I never knew that..like to humans or fish..



Not sure about fish, some larger angels eat them and are ok.. BUT what we are talking about is being toxic to Humans.

read this if you want to know more....

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158730

HoopsGuru
03/07/2007, 01:14 PM
As stated previously, where should we then draw the line? We include palytoxin in zoanthids (even though it is not truly encountered with most zoos in the hobby, but still a danger) as requiring a warning label...this would then have to be extended to Rhodactis mushrooms and some other soft corals. Is that enough, because in reality then we should also have to put a warning on saltwater aquariums in general because of Mybacterium marinum (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/sp/feature/index.php) , and then what also about the possibility of analphylactic shock from 1 or repeated stings from corals/anemones? The list goes on and on. However, anyone who has spent any amount of time on this forum alone should realize how things can quickly spin into a hysteria. This could likely cripple smaller vendors just trying to do the "right" thing.

I like to think there is still some personal responsibility in the world. I cannot fathom anyone not making a prudent effort to keep themselves clean when doing anything in a fish tank, and anyone who is advanced enough to be considering doing frequent handling of any coral for fragging purposes should be expected to not only have researched the specimen in the first place but also have a dedicated area to do so that facilitates healthy maintenance of themselves and their surroundings.

greenbean36191
03/07/2007, 01:58 PM
People have died from zoas
I've never been able to find any recorded cases of human deaths due to palytoxin in corals other than the Hawai'ian legends. The guy that supposedly died 2 weeks ago was still alive last I heard. The person relaying the story was given false info by the person who was keeping him updated on the the guy's condition.

dogs have died from eating them.
The same can be said about sea hares and lots of other marine animals, but I don't think that implies that humans need to be extra cautious with them.

The problem becomes that there are so many things available in the hobby that can make you seriously ill or kill you that there would be some sort of warning on almost everything. Even if we were just to label the animals that contain palytoxin we would have to list crabs, snails, clams, sponges, worms, brittle stars, fish, corals,... pretty much most groups of marine animals. Then what about other toxins like TTX? What about sources of bacteria like Vibrio and Mycobacterium?.....

When warnings get too common people ignore them. You have to weigh the risk factors so people don't just blow you off. IMO zoanthids pose a low risk. Yes, some contain a powerful toxin in the wild. There isn't evidence yet that all of them do or that they can maintain it in their systems in captivity. Like someone mentioned earlier, it's made by a dinoflagellate, not the corals themselves, so they might lose it after being in captivity for a while. Also, like sjfishguy mentioned, actually poisoning yourself is unlikely even in the event that you did have one of the toxic specimens. All of those factors make the actual likelyhood of anyone dying from zoas extremely low. Think of how long people have been keeping zoas and how many of them are in the hobby. Then compare that number to the number of people who have been killed by or even poisoned by zoas during that time. I would say I'm pretty well read on the subject, but still I can think of probably less than 10 cases of people having serious reactions. The odds of having a problem are astronomically low, something on the order of the chance of being killed by a falling coconut this year, but ther isn't a call to add warnings to coconut trees.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 02:39 PM
If the partciular variety of Zoo being sold is known to not contain a toxin then I agree a warning would be without basis. But if there is a form of uncertainty as to if it does or does not I say inform the buyer. There are warnings on a lot of silly things that are more common sense type things, like chocking on legos, or peanuts or warnings on coffe cups. I really don't think everyone in reefing knows about this toxin IMO. Another thing that I seriously doubt is that most ppl wear gloves when handling coral or maintaining their tank. And if they knew of this toxin at least they may want to go do that, but without a serious type waring they dont have an incentive. Perhaps knowing they are potentially handling a highly toxic coral is what they need.

DId you check out this month's frag article, notice the individual is not wear any gloves in the pics (very interesting article as a side note.)http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/gh/index.php

Also if someone has a small tank and a high zoo population I would imagine the concentration per unit volume is much more. Make it more likely to get sick.


Finally if you go to a vendor's website and there is a page of data on a coral about Temp, Ph, lighting, salinity, where the coral is from, its behavior, its colors its discovery, and not a note on its toxic behavior how can you be expected to fathom that yourself. Surely with all this other data present you would expect that to be present as well. Otherwise i think most consumers would assume such a threat does not exist since vendor has taken the trouble to illustrate these facts and not that one.

If for instance a new coral were to hit the market and if a vendor had knowledge of it being capable of irritating your skin but decided to not include that fact to prevent loss of sales, is that the right thing to do. I would personally like to be warned.

Gwoardnog
03/07/2007, 03:35 PM
How many people die from those toxins each year?

Facts.

Why should whoever the heck gets to make rules concerning "warnings" spend time on this issue (quite frankly a retardedly ridiculous chance of happening to your everyday citizen) instead of other issues he/she/they are trying to deal with (that I'm willing to bet have way more impact than people handling corals with cuts on their hands)?

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 03:57 PM
Thousands of people don't die each yr from lazer pointers, plastic bags, legos, peanuts, paint, Coffee, aerosol cans and so on but they have their own warnings on them right.

this is no different as a consumer the manufacturer of a product or since in this case there is no product copyright the vendor in this instance is the final authority on the product.

sjfishguy
03/07/2007, 04:23 PM
You should worry more about being electrocuted by your tank than getting zapped by zoo. And how many people on here unplug their equipment everytime thier hands go in the tank, not many. There are many more things to worry about in our tanks. (Mycobacterium marinum is a stretch though, come on, you know that infection is very rare in humans, I got a chuckle though that someone knew about it....)

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 04:28 PM
Mycobacterium marium as per the CDC, many individuals needed surgery

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no11/03-0192.htm

xtm
03/07/2007, 05:11 PM
I don't think they're required to put warnings on Zoanthids.. I mean, they're not that dangerous to the touch- unless you squash it and smear it over an open wound (but WHY do that??) Seriously, you probably have a higher chance of comitting SUICIDE after you file BK from buying Tunze stuff than getting killed by a killer Zoanthid.. LOL
I buy nails and screws from home depot all the time and it doesn't have a warning that says you can die if you nail your skull with it....

This day and age, people are getting so ridiculous with the lawsuit and what not, especially if you live in the lawsuit state aka CALIFORNIA.

virginiadiver69
03/07/2007, 06:16 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9419784#post9419784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
Thousands of people don't die each yr from lazer pointers, plastic bags, legos, peanuts, paint, Coffee, aerosol cans and so on but they have their own warnings on them right.

[violation]

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 06:26 PM
thanks for keeping the peace mods

Reefcherie
03/07/2007, 06:28 PM
[flamealert]

Keep it civil and on-topic folks or this thread will be closed.

Thanks.

lakwriter
03/07/2007, 06:28 PM
Should they be regulated? No. Too much is regulated it as it is. A responsible vendor would recognize the risks and hopefully provide some kind of warning or guidance...like warnings on a menu that eating certain undercooked foods may be hazarous. I am lucky enough that my LFS asks questions about your current setup before they'll sell you livestock, i.e. size of tank, current inhabitants, length of time established, etc. They are a rare find.

But regulating them or considering them a "manufacturer" and requiring a warning would be akin to dog breeders putting a label on a puppy that the dog may bite their child's finger off or attack unknowing visitors. Yes, it sounds silly, but we all know the risks of dogs because they are so common. Zoos do not have such a luxury.

archie1709
03/07/2007, 06:30 PM
Actually this discussion is good because I never paid attention to toxicity on humans when it comes to zoos. I just thought they are beautiful harmless specimen. This is good awareness.

I am more afraid of my Kenya Tree because everytime I siphon, I always get burns on the side of my arm a few minutes after touching the Kenya Tree accidentally.

virginiadiver69
03/07/2007, 06:33 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9419784#post9419784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
Thousands of people don't die each yr from lazer pointers, plastic bags, legos, peanuts, paint, Coffee, aerosol cans and so on but they have their own warnings on them right.

Okay, I will use a more politically correct tone. :lol:

That is because "people" feel more comfortable living in a nanny state rather than take responsibility for their own actions.

Ursus
03/07/2007, 06:44 PM
I still don't see how they could be required to warn people or be found at fault for any injury or death. That would be like making dog breeders warn people that dogs can kill people.

Also, seeing as not all zoanthids/pallys make palytoxin (in fact, from what I understand, only a very, very small percentage do produce it) it would be unfair to make the seller warn people, thus scarring of potential customers that would be buying a coral that may or may not be harmful.

Would it be nice? Yes. Is it practical? No.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 06:47 PM
They can't be required at this point as there is no law saying such.
At this point its purly the same as stating a lighting requirement nice but not obligated to.

Ursus
03/07/2007, 06:55 PM
I see what you're saying. But if they are gonna tell about the potential of being poisoned by things in your fish tank, they should also mention all the possible pests, algae, and predators that could potentially be introduced into your tank when buying coral.

Now I don't know about you, but if I saw a warning like that on a site, I would seriously reconsider purchasing something from them just because they had the warning up.

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 07:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9421065#post9421065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Okay, I will use a more politically correct tone. :lol:

That is because "people" feel more comfortable living in a nanny state rather than take responsibility for their own actions.




This post is as useless as the first that had to be edited as it does nothing for the thread. You just have a interest in making insulting comments and causing a fight as noted by the saying you have given in your Occupation.


"Thousands of people don't die each yr from lazer pointers, plastic bags, legos, peanuts, paint, Coffee, aerosol cans and so on but they have their own warnings on them right"



What I am trying to say in that post is that all those items are given warnings when they are self explanatory. Not nearly as many ppl I can imagine know in great detail what Palytoxin is as compared to those who know about hot coffee burning them. I gain nothing from a vendor posting a warning about this toxin because I know about the risk and reponsibility involved in keeping said coral or any other organism in my tank. But not everyone knows about it and I think that awareness regarding it should be available. I am not saying don't ever sell thsi coral or ppl who own it are bad Im just saying a buyer may not know about it and they really should.

msman825
03/07/2007, 07:04 PM
I think its like driving a car. if you drive long enuff anything can happen

msman825
03/07/2007, 07:12 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9421369#post9421369 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by msman825
I think its like driving a car. if you drive long enuff anything can happen and if you dont know how to drive, you should not be behind the will

Anemone
03/07/2007, 07:12 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9421353#post9421353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
This post is as useless as the first that had to be edited as it does nothing for the thread. You just have a interest in making insulting comments and causing a fight as noted by the saying you have given in your Occupation.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9421010#post9421010 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefcherie
<i><br>Here at Reef Central, we believe that dialogs between participants should be conducted in a friendly and helpful manner. If you disagree with a posting, please express yourself in a way that is conducive to further constructive dialog. Conversely, when you post on any given subject, you must be willing to accept constructive criticism without posting a hostile or inflammatory response. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. Please let’s work to insure that Reef Central remains a friendly and flame free site where everyone, especially newcomers, can feel free to post questions without fear of being unfairly criticized. Thank you for your cooperation.</i>

Keep it civil and on-topic folks or this thread will be closed.

Thanks.

Okay, what part of the above is difficult to understand? :mad2:

Kevin

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 07:14 PM
Anemone he started it..

melev
03/07/2007, 11:20 PM
Here's my perspective. I've had all kinds of zoas over the past 5 years, and none have done a thing to leave me concerned. Any time my hands go <b>in</b> the tank, I rinse them off. Anytime I'm done working in the tank, I rinse them off again. I've had mushrooms squirt at me, and zoanthids as well. Clams can squirt you. Aiptasia have tried to squirt me, and it is even possible to be squirted by kalkwasser if you aren't careful.

If you get zoanthid juice in your mouth or eyes, your normal reaction should be to get it rinsed out immediately. If you choose to ignore the possible invasion of something possibly bacterial in nature, it is the same as stepping on a rusty nail and then not going to the doctor to have it checked out. Every person needs common sense, but not all people have it.

Like the coffee lady that earned notoriety and dollars, you can bet some day someone will sue someone else because of zoanthids, whether there was a warning or not. We live in a litigious society unfortunately.

Anyone remember Iocaine Powder from The Princess Bride? Maybe we should start injesting a polyp each day to build up an immunity to palytoxin. :D

It would be nice if we could identify them by taste anyway. When they arrive, usually they are closed up. Wouldn't it be nice to know if they are Bellagio or if they are Laser Eyes?

Now that I think of it, maybe it makes sense that these are called <b><u>Mean</u> Greens</b>! :lol:

http://melevsreef.com/pics/06/10/meangreens_1013.jpg

xtm
03/07/2007, 11:33 PM
OT - but those are beautiful ^^ :eek:

melev
03/07/2007, 11:43 PM
Yeah, but they're MEAN. And there are no warning or disclaimers to protect yourself from harm. To assure your safety, I'll keep them in my tank. ;)

vijaym85
03/07/2007, 11:46 PM
Melev, you really are amazing with a camera. Those polyps are so pretty it seems like the risk is worth it for them.

To anybody who reads this thread I don't think there is a wrong or right answer to my question. Its just your opinions and mine. I know I have chosen an unpopular stance but so be it. I appreciate all the interesting and varying perspectives expressed with the exception of one individual who chose to resort to name calling. I hope the rest of the thread will remain civil and on topic.

And for the record as stated before I don't think a vendor has to issue a warning unless they are required by law. Would a warning be nice??? YES

melev
03/08/2007, 12:25 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9423690#post9423690 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
Would a warning be nice??? YES

I'm pretty sure I said that in the very first post I made in this thread. ;)

vijaym85
03/08/2007, 12:29 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9423855#post9423855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
I'm pretty sure I said that in the very first post I made in this thread. ;)

Lol yeah you did!

I guess I spent 3 pgs trying to illustrate why I felt the optional Warning would be nice, as many did't agree.

Nobody feels bad for Noobs anymore huh :lol:

Icefire
03/08/2007, 12:32 AM
From what I know, zoa don't have palytoxin.

Only those who live in tide pool where there is red tide that ingest it.

Palytoxin come from the red tide.

vijaym85
03/08/2007, 12:33 AM
We have seedless grapes how about Toxinless zoa...

tkeracer619
03/08/2007, 02:08 AM
I fragged some zoas two weeks ago.

Got squirt in the eye. Washed it out. Dang that was no fun. 4 days of pain, my eye sorta pussed, not pretty......

The next week I trade my eye glasses for some saftey glasses.


http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0006IUKAQ.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

That didn't work as within 3 minutes I was hit again but in the other eye. I jumped into the shower and stared into the nozzle for atleast 15 minutes..... some soreness but not as bad of a reaction as the other zoas.

I stopped by toys-r-us to get my next level of safety.
http://www.heb.com/images/yourHeb/seasonPoolToyGoggles.jpg

sjfishguy
03/08/2007, 06:12 AM
Icefire: that is wrong. They produce it endogenously.

Vijaym85: less than 100 cases in a case review looking at 1966-2007 makes this disease rare. I am in medical school, trust me, its rare.

Frick-n-Frags
03/08/2007, 06:33 AM
I'm still actually amazed some reefer hasn't won the darwin award yet.

I still like the electrocution stories (obviously they lived :D) the best, with the lionfish sting "realtime" posting a close second

vijaym85
03/08/2007, 10:05 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9424482#post9424482 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjfishguy
Icefire: that is wrong. They produce it endogenously.

Vijaym85: less than 100 cases in a case review looking at 1966-2007 makes this disease rare. I am in medical school, trust me, its rare.



What Yr in med school are you up to. I am taking my MCAT in April. They whole thing is on a comp. now.

boxfishpooalot
03/08/2007, 10:13 AM
I just thought of somthing. What if sombody is drunk and the aquarist says unknowingly about the toxin " I dare you to eat that for a 100$"......... Its game over for that guy.

But if they had a little warning by the price, it would not happen.

sunfish11
03/08/2007, 10:23 AM
I just thought of somthing. What if sombody is drunk and the aquarist says unknowingly about the toxin " I dare you to eat that for a 100$"......... Its game over for that guy.

Yeah, I could see something like that happening. What about the guy on RC who bet his buddy $$ to drink a cup of skimmate? LOL. Men and beer equals eating or drinking gross stuff.

Warning: Please do not eat the corals. They may cause rectal bleeding, gum disease, disorientation, cancer, tingling in your extremeties, ED, numbness, incontenence, projectile vomiting, internal bleeding, headache, seizures, muscle aches, painful urination, and death.

vijaym85
03/08/2007, 10:33 AM
Kudos to MDL they have a warning.

http://www.marinedepotlive.com/button-polyp-brown-mushrooms---epizoanthus-species-corals--mushrooms---polyps.html

vijaym85
03/09/2007, 02:42 PM
I have a hypothetical scenario for you all to ponder. Say you work in a LFS and a 15yr old kid were to come into the store, he explains to you he has just finished setting up his simple little 10g tank. Today he finally decided to buy his first coral, he looks around sees the $100 Elegance and Acros which he would like but they are out of his price range.

The kid then spots a nice little zoo colony for $10 and comes over to you and asks you if these are hard to keep. You explain they are simple, grow easy, don't have high light or flow requirements are easy to frag and a good price (all very true things). Now comes your moral choice, do you bag them up and send the kid who you can tell is inexperienced on his way or do you say hey kid becareful when you touch this coral and wear a glove and be careful to not allow it to squirt you....

melev
03/09/2007, 03:27 PM
If I work in an LFS, I would tell him of the dangers as well as the care required. I wouldn't promote using gloves but would strongly encourage washing his hands before and after handling them.

sjfishguy
03/09/2007, 08:57 PM
I am in my 2nd year of medical school. Studying for my first step of boards now that I am taking the end of June. You taking any prep classes? Hope you are doing ExamKrackers cause they are the best and I use to be an instructor for them (they are still good even without me now :) ) The MCAT was tough, but it only gets worse, sorry ;)

vijaym85
03/09/2007, 09:43 PM
Good luck with your exams. I am nervous, I think I may have to head overseas to the carribean, its getting to be really hard to get in. My sister and dad are Docs. as well. A 27 on the Mcat used to be ok to get in during my sister's time about 12yrs ago, but now its seems like a 30 is a minimum. my friend had a 27 and a 3.8gpa, ALL A's in Bio, chem, orgo and phys plus lots of voluntering, summer programs, clubs the works and did not even get an interview from over 20 schools. Her guidance counseler was stunned. That made me feel pretty depressed, not only for her but for myself.

03/09/2007, 10:15 PM
Anyone with common sense should know to wash their hands after,

a: touching something slimy
b: shaking peoples hands
c: taking a crap

boxfishpooalot
03/09/2007, 10:36 PM
This is the most powerfull toxin known to man. Stronger than snake venom. More potent than anything else we know. I dont think just washing your hands good advice. You cant die from sticking your hand in a pile of crap or shaking hands.... Besides it could be too late after washing your hands. All it takes is a cut on the thumb that and a fraggin fest.

This is not common sense. How would something so small and colorful be so toxic? Thats what most would say I think.

Come to think about it I wonder if they will ban zoox because it could be a mighty easy way to commit murder. "want this milkshake I made for you honey?" not knowing theres a blended zoox in it. :lol:

vijaym85
03/09/2007, 11:15 PM
------Once again I would like to ask anyone who reads this thread to try and answer how you feel would be the right way to respond to the made up situation I proposed. I will post the story again------

I have a hypothetical scenario for you all to ponder. Say you work in a LFS and a 15yr old kid were to come into the store, he explains to you he has just finished setting up his simple little 10g tank. Today he finally decided to buy his first coral, he looks around sees the $100 Elegance and Acros which he would like but they are out of his price range.

The kid then spots a nice little zoo colony for $10 and comes over to you and asks you if these are hard to keep. You explain they are simple, grow easy, don't have high light or flow requirements are easy to frag and a good price (all very true things). Now comes your moral choice, do you bag them up and send the kid who you can tell is inexperienced on his way or do you say hey kid becareful when you touch this coral and wear a glove and be careful to not allow it to squirt you....

HoopsGuru
03/10/2007, 08:21 AM
I don't think that is a very good hypothetical situation. If you have taken the time to explain all of that to a kid, I would assume you would take the extra 7 seconds to explain to use common sense in handling any aquatic livestock (wear gloves and wash your hands). I would not find it necessary to go into detail that his coral may or may not have a toxic compound. I would also recommend Eric Borneman's Aquarium Corals book as a reference (which I would have in my store) to go along with his purchase of any coral. I see no moral dilemma.

vijaym85
03/10/2007, 09:28 AM
How is it not a good situation Hoops. I have a friends in LFS's and they always tell me about ppl buying stuff they are clueless about. Its perfectly understandable that someone could come into a store and ask hey what do I need for this coral?If somone is willing to explainto explain everything else why not about a toxin. At least the kid will know to repect this particular coral a little more. And when say he is going to go and frag it or whatever he will be a little more careful. PPl are warned all the time about Lionfish and they don't all die from it.

kmf507
03/10/2007, 09:51 AM
I think the LFS should warn people of toxicity. I think the hypothetical situation calls for the same.

It is very easy to say,
"These corals contain a toxin that can be harmful. We recommend you wear gloves when working with them."

The LFS can also show how they work with the zoos on a daily basis though, and often don't wear gloves. Basically, that would show that it is necessary to be careful, but the danger is out there.

For the record, I have decided against adding zoos to my tank. It's not worth it in my opinion. I'm being overly cautious I'm sure. I'm also sure there are other things in the tank that are toxic that I am unaware of. I do not wear gloves when clipping nori, adjusting powerheads etc, but I do when rearranging rock, touching coral, etc.

I would consider zoos at some point, but my wife has read of the danger, and thinks the tank is costly enough as it is (she'd hate to lose my meager salary to it). With a dog I adore and a child on the way, I want to minimize risk....

All that being said, I think the biggest risk a reef tank poses is a house fire.

vijaym85
03/10/2007, 09:56 AM
kmf I totally agree with what you said and what melev said except why melev does not wan't to promote glove use, interesting as to why?

melev
03/10/2007, 11:50 AM
Because it is impractical in many cases. In your hypthetical situation, I don't believe the 15yr old will go home and always put on gloves when handling zoanthids. Better he know how he can handle them without gloves because there will come a time when he has none available (ran out, too lazy or too broke to buy more, too lazy to put them on, in a hurry...).

You know another thing that can get you that is not clearly warned about? Two part putty, the kind we use to mount corals in our tanks. Greg Hiller, a member of BRS (Boston Reefers Society) did the presentation for a Fragging workshop. He'd been using two part putty for years. The way it works, you cut off a piece and knead it in your fingers or hands for a minute until the coloration is all the same. This stuff soaked into his flesh and he ended up in the hospital. He now wears gloves, and recommended them. So when it comes to that product, I put them on.

For years I've been handling zoanthids in my tanks, fragging them and trading them. I think it would be silly to say I've just been lucky all this time. These, like any other coral, I handle gingerly to avoid hurting the polyps. If I can, I'll pick up the coral by the rock it is connected to whenever possible. I don't wipe my mouth, my eyes, my face when working in the tank. I don't chew on any of this stuff, nor the tools I use. Would you?

The person above stated he would never buy them because they were too dangerous is an extreme opinion. There is no reason to have such fear of a beautiful species like zoanthus.

One more surprising thing that can get you. A guy found a nudibranch in his tank, the kind that eats zoanthids. He had a nano tank on his desk at work, and the nudibranch was working its way up the glass. Instead of removing it from the tank, he decided to squish it to death between his finger and the glass. He too ended up in the hosipital. Why did he choose to squish it? Maybe he was on the phone and felt a squash was the easiest solution. Had it been me, I would have taken pictures of the lil' guy.

Basically, what I'm promoting is the gathering of information and application of reasonable common sense. I don't want to create a sense of fear when it comes to reefkeeping, but rather a sense of respect of what it contains. Some people may need to wear shoulder-length gloves because they are allergic to saltwater, but that doesn't stop them from enjoying this hobby. Understanding the risks is key, imho.

kmf507
03/10/2007, 12:17 PM
Melev, wow, reading about a toxin and then choosing not to keep it in my house is an extreme opinion?

melev
03/10/2007, 12:29 PM
What is a lesser word than extreme? Overly cautious sound better? What about bristleworms? Or an anemone? Or a Foxface? Even an urchin or vermetids can all hurt you. Having a totally safe tank is kind of an impossibility to achieve, or perhaps it would be a very boring one. :lol: Even a lowly mushroom can squirt you in the eye and we know the water in our tanks are not bacteria-free. Heck, if you use your mouth to start the siphon on the hose for a water change, you might ingest some saltwater. Your livestock is constantly excreting waste into that water...

How would your dog get access to eating zoanthids? Or your child for that matter?

Icefire
03/10/2007, 12:39 PM
From what I have found, Palytoxin are made by Dinoflagellate who make this toxin and zoanthid that live in tide pool where there is a huge concentration of Dinoflagellate carry it as well by absorbsion

virginiadiver69
03/10/2007, 12:57 PM
I think we have gotten away from the original question.
"Should Vendors be REQUIRED to warn buyers..."
Required by who? Presumably it would be a government entity that would do the oversight. Like to many other things reef keeping would become an over regulated hassle. Would it be nice for a vendor to VOLUNTER this info? Sure, but required...NO!
The average persons wishy washy, spineless willingness to give up the right of personal responsibility for the placebo of safety "given" to them by a nanny state is offensive.

03/10/2007, 02:14 PM
BOOOOYAAAAAA!

One more reason to vote Republican. The spineless, wishy washy people can move to France, I'll stay here with my extremely dangerous fish tanks and SUVs

virginiadiver69
03/10/2007, 02:55 PM
I didn't really mean that as a promotion of one side of the isle vs. the other. Like Ronald Reagan said "All government is the problem" and it just really bothers me to see the general population so willing to cede their personal responsibility to those SO willing to take it.

virginiadiver69
03/10/2007, 03:00 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9423873#post9423873 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85
Nobody feels bad for Noobs anymore huh :lol:

Why should we? Everybody has the same access to all of the info.

vijaym85
03/10/2007, 05:04 PM
Well screw the noobs then. I am just glad that I know about it. I personally am not a fan of governmental warnings like on a ciggerate cartons, I mean thats plain obvious and serves on purpose, or even with all these Tv ratings. I just hear for instance a lot of stuff on Tv with these stupid lawyers trying to bring lawsuits on ppl over things like lead paint posioning and like it seems that could have been avoided TO A DEGREE if they just warned someone more explicitly., I don't feel bad if someone dosn't follow an open warning and dies. I only felt bad about this because when I started out i did not know about it until I saw it on Marine depot and then here on RC. So i personally am glad that vendor kept me informed. Like I said there are a lot of foolish warnings around and there are a lot of stupid ppl too. Pretty much everyone drives car but not everyone joins a car website right, well say there was a small defect on a particular part of your car and the only ppl talking about it are the ppl on that site and it dosn't ever go public becuase the manufacturer never says anything, I feel sort of the same way about this. But hey like I said screw the noobs, all that matters to me at the end of the day is that i know for myself. But if I were to encounter someone I personally would be like watch yourself with anything you do thats aquarium related. Don't panic just excercise common sanitary practices and pay a little more attention with this particular coral. Thats all NO mass histeria or, No boycots none of that over the top crap. I don't think many ppl if any will die from keeping this coral i just think its nice to be told what your getting into if its not something thats seen as common knowledge. And from my opinion the subject of Palytoxin is not common knowledge.

But yeah getting back to the original quastion, No they should not be required at this point. There is not enough evidence to make this a law. It's wrong if it were forced upon, its purely voluntary. Its nice if they did!

virginiadiver69
03/10/2007, 05:49 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9445286#post9445286 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vijaym85

But yeah getting back to the original quastion, No they should not be required at this point. There is not enough evidence to make this a law. It's wrong if it were forced upon, its purely voluntary. Its nice if they did!

Well, it sounds like your original question was rhetorical then.
I'm glad we can agree that marine aquarium livestock suppliers should not be regulated.
P.S. I never said "screw the noobs". This info is readily available and it just takes a MINOR amount of research to get acquainted with the dangers of keeping marine animals.
I assume you have spent enough time in this forum to hear the typical "My lfs sold me a mandarin for my new tank but now it doesn't look too good" question. First off, they say "THEY sold me..." like it is the stores fault that that this person did not practice due diligence.

vijaym85
03/10/2007, 06:13 PM
I am saying screw em. LoL J/k we love the noobs they are the future and in one way or another everyone is a bit of a noob.
My question was simply to seek the opinions and views held by fellow reefers. I think ppl felt that since I started the thread that I was pro Forcing them into waring the consumer, but this is not the case. I will say that I personally would appreciate a friendly waring if its offered to me. There are so many creatures for sale in our hobby that to be an expert on all can be tedious. If you see something in your store you never ever saw in your life and the worker knew it was dangerous a friendly warning is nice. Ppl are human they buy on impulse. You see a cool looking snail you never saw before in the store you may want it since it may not be there again. So if were dangerous and the worker were to warn you on it then its appreciated. I am certainly thankful to MD for warning me. We have to get our info from somewhere and the place you buy from seems like a nice start is all I am saying. Also not just anyone is allowed to import livestock without a licencse so with that Privalage (not a right) comes a certain degree of responsibility if not forced then just to be a good guy and to be helpful. But I hope I did't come off as some crazy "warning labeler" That is not me.

DrBegalke
03/11/2007, 01:42 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9415029#post9415029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by taketz
Bad example IMO, but I understand what you're trying to get at.



Zoanthid sellers (and buyers) should know the risk of palytoxin... just as coffee sellers (and buyers) should know the risk of 180-190 degree fluids.

Caveat emptor, it is the buyers responsibility to know what they are buying.

Maybe these examples would be better though, comparing apples to apples.... should every dog sold be labeled "warning: this animal may bite, maim, and kill you," should every cat be labeled "warning: this animal may harbor deadly and disfiguring disease which can be transmitted simply by handling its kitty litter", should every horse be labelled "warning: this animal may break your neck, causing death or paraplegias", should every pig, chicken and cow be labelled "warning: this animal and its meat may harbor a multitude of diseases, some of which can be rapidly fatal" ....

All that said, I think the only way zoanthid sellers would issue blanket warnings on zoanthids would be after a very public tort case against them.

I say that because as silly as all the examples above sound, they happen all the time. I have seen cases of all of them, but never a palytoxin poisioning... and yet haven't seen any warnings on dogs, cats, horses, pigs, chickens or cows.

kathainbowen
03/11/2007, 07:39 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9448055#post9448055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DrBegalke
I say that because as silly as all the examples above sound, they happen all the time. I have seen cases of all of them, but never a palytoxin poisioning... and yet haven't seen any warnings on dogs, cats, horses, pigs, chickens or cows.

... actually.... I used to study show jumping and dressage at a riding academy, where one rider had an issue, even with those warnings up around her perimeter fences. She kept her horse stabled on her property in the summer, and on farm property in the winter, to use the indoor arena when the ground outside hardened. After several summers of doing this, even after warning all her neighbors when her horse, a rather high-strung TB mix, was coming home and posting signs about the property, she had to stop. A child climbed the property fence, crawled under the pasture fence, ignored the warnings, and was kicked by the horse. The parents sued.... and WON... because equines fall under the category of "attractive nuisances," just like swimming pools.

But, sadly, it's a side affect of people not teaching children- or themselves- safe handling of animals- or completely disregarding safe handling techniques. That, in truth, is where the risk lies in getting zoa toxins, stung by foxfaces or lionfish, bitten by dogs, kicked by horses, and just about everyway you could get hurt by an animal.

I know, I know, it would be super nice if all animals came or corals came with warning labels. Such as, "This Galaxea coral is known to sting and otherwise attack corals within a few inches range, possibly injuring or killling them." It would be very nice. However, it's not always possible to stick warning labels on everything. For example...

Sensitised individuals may show an allergy to nickel affecting their skin. The amount of nickel which is allowed in products which come into contact with human skin is regulated by the European Union. In 2002 a report in the journal Nature researchers found amounts of nickel being emitted by 1 and 2 Euro coins far in excess of those standards.

... I don't see warnings on the Euro. Unfortunately, that's because it's just not possible to slap warning labels on everything. Sure, in the case of zoas, it's easy to add the tag on a website. However, in an LFS, especially one using antiquated techniques of tank labeling such as Sharpies or paint markers, it just might not be possible. And, just like doctors, LFS staffs are not perfect. They are human, and might forget things, including warnings. LFSs can get busy and hectic, especially if you're at a popular one on the weekend or before a holiday, so it can be hard to keep track of who staff has told what.

So, what can be said?

It is my belief that, as a responsible pet owner, it is the potential owner's responsibility to educate themselves on potential risks. A responsible pet owner is the kind of person who investigates what is involved in potty or crate training before getting a puppy, or what kinds of breed-specific issues a dog might have. A responsible pet owner makes themself aware of precautions they should be taking when handling a pet. However, pets are impulse items because they draw on intangible qualities, such as love-at-first-sight, cute eyes, or, in the case of corals, aesthetics of how they will be incorporated into the aquascape. And, of course, not everyone's like me, wandering about with my snake, with a bottle of Purel in my pocket.

So, what to do, since there seems no sudden quick fix?

Be a proactive member of the community. If you see an obvious newb taking home a zoa and no one has warned the newb, give him or her a polite and friendly heads up. Practice safe handling techniques and encourage them, especially if you post or blog about fragging and cutting. Otherwise, griping over warning labels that will probably never happen until there's some huge lawsuit over it.

Aimforever
04/01/2007, 12:57 AM
one thing that i think is interesting about this whole thread is that every time i've expressed interest in a lionfish, even at differnet lfs, the salesman has warned me of the risk of getting stung. these stings are never fatal, yet seem to merit a warning. however, i've never been warned about the potential toxic effects of zoos. in fact, until seeing this thread i had no idea some zoos can be toxic.

i remember reading in an article on wwm that the turnover rate in this hobby is around 90%. that means the vast majority of people probably have no idea what they are getting into, and deserve to be warned. those of us who are on RC need to realize that in the big picture, we represent the vast minority of people in the hobby.

vijaym85
04/01/2007, 01:12 AM
Hey Aimforever welcome to Reefcentral.

I was fighting a loosing battle in this thread but I still have my beliefs. Anyway there was another thread about Zoo's that poped up recently here it is if you want to see it


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083843

HoopsGuru
04/01/2007, 03:06 PM
That's because a lionfish sting goes above and beyond the standard common sense precautions of working around an aquarium i.e. washing your hands, etc. Even if you wear latex gloves, a lionfish can easily puncture them with a spine. Comparing them is not quite the same.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9619129#post9619129 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Aimforever
one thing that i think is interesting about this whole thread is that every time i've expressed interest in a lionfish, even at differnet lfs, the salesman has warned me of the risk of getting stung. these stings are never fatal, yet seem to merit a warning. however, i've never been warned about the potential toxic effects of zoos. in fact, until seeing this thread i had no idea some zoos can be toxic.

i remember reading in an article on wwm that the turnover rate in this hobby is around 90%. that means the vast majority of people probably have no idea what they are getting into, and deserve to be warned. those of us who are on RC need to realize that in the big picture, we represent the vast minority of people in the hobby.

Dholmblad
04/01/2007, 03:25 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9414625#post9414625 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ursus
I don't think they could ever be required to warn people or be held accountable. That would be like requiring Home Depot to warn people about the dangers of breathing paint fumes whenever someone bought paint. Sure, the product has a warning on it but that was placed on there by the manufacturer. It's a little different with live animals.

A warning would be nice, but I don't see it ever happening. As long as people research they should be ok.

Thats on the label of paint:)

kathainbowen
04/01/2007, 03:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9622188#post9622188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HoopsGuru
That's because a lionfish sting goes above and beyond the standard common sense precautions of working around an aquarium i.e. washing your hands, etc. Even if you wear latex gloves, a lionfish can easily puncture them with a spine. Comparing them is not quite the same.

That, and not every zoanthid or palythoa actually HAS the toxin, while every species of lionfish on the retail market DOES have a venom.

In addition to that, while zoanthids are quite popular with newbies to reef keeping, lionfish are quite popular with people who are completely new to saltwater in general. Lionfish are elegant, beautiful, and exotic, with that added spice of aggression and a touch of danger that lures in many people who are new to saltwater and interested with predators. These people can be more apt to behave with a disregard to the venomous nature of the lion, or to push their luck with handling- people who are more likely to get stung.

9 times out of 10, when I sold a small Volitans lionfish, it was to a newb who thought this was going to be the coollest, most [email protected] fish or pet out of the ones their friends had. It got to the point, I was starting to feel like lionfish where the Pitbull or Rottie of the saltwater world (sweet, misunderstood, and often purchased purely for the rumors of their nature). This is not to say I also didn't have several customers who were responsible lionfish keepers, just admitting a trend among other people purchasing them.

Aimforever
04/01/2007, 09:42 PM
vijaym85, thanks for the kind welcome, and again for bringing this topic to light. It might be controversial, but at least it is increasing awareness.

kathainbowen, I definitely agree that the lionfish tends to attract an uninformed crowd, and can see why it might be more important for them to be educated about the risks. Maybe it wasn’t the best comparison, I just know in the future I will do my part to try to help educate others about the simple precautions they should take when handling some zoos.

airinhere
04/05/2007, 12:31 AM
The reality of this situation is that most LFS employees are not aware of the toxicity of zoos.
This sort of information should not be goverment regulated unless LFS employees are going to be certified or have education requirements. And a hefty payraise would be in line as well. No more kids willing to work for minimum wage trying to answer all of our endless questions about everything in the store and being treated like idiots if they end up being wrong. Finally some qualified individuals to staff our stores. Able to explain in detail about everything in the store so none of us should ever have to do any more research on our own. Finally we could hold them responsible if they failed to mention some insignificant fact like the drab coloration of the adult chevron tang we are about to blow 75 bucks on cause it looks cool all orange with stripes.
Look, if your LFS doesnt mention stuff like this maybe you should mention it to them. They might not even know. If they do know and then dont mention it, their incompetent and greedy. A good LFS should try to warn you against making a stupid purchase but the ultimate decision is the customers. If your LFS just agrees that all your ideas are great, the three tangs are fine in a 55 gal and the mandarin is gonna do fine in your new nanoreef, maybe you should try shopping somewhere else. Cause they are ripping you off.
Again, I say that if they dont mention the toxins encountered in this hobby, they are incompetent and should be avoided.

Nano Chris
04/05/2007, 12:46 AM
If i was buying some zoos i would like to know if they are toxic or not and having to be cautious, even if they were not toxic, i still wear gloves when ever i put my hands in my tank, better to be safe than sorry, also it keeps your arms from getting wet lol, saltwater drys your skin out too.

HoopsGuru
04/05/2007, 08:27 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9651057#post9651057 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by airinhere
A good LFS should try to warn you against making a stupid purchase but the ultimate decision is the customers. If your LFS just agrees that all your ideas are great, the three tangs are fine in a 55 gal and the mandarin is gonna do fine in your new nanoreef, maybe you should try shopping somewhere else. Cause they are ripping you off.
Again, I say that if they dont mention the toxins encountered in this hobby, they are incompetent and should be avoided.

As has been beaten throughout this thread, why is palytoxin being singled out as the criteria for judging and LFS's competency? If they are required to describe every potential dangerous thing in an aquarium, I could easily see half of their business being scared out of enjoying it. I still believe in personal responsibility, and would not count on any information being right if the LFS told me or not. I research and treat everything as though it is toxic, then I have no one to blame or reason to get lazy around corals/fish coated in various bacteria and other compounds. It's also the logical thing when investing the amount of money that goes into a saltwater aquarium.

sage12177
11/28/2011, 11:13 PM
I believe a reputable LFS would willingly tell you. I have a 2 bar rabbit fish and was warned about their spines. I also have a zebra eel and was told if it ever bit me to go straight to the ER. Was my LFS "required to tell me? No, and I still bought them. I AM more cautious when spot feeding my corals as a result. I keep an eye out for where both of them are when I feed.

Aquanist
11/28/2011, 11:35 PM
IMO I just don't understand why would it be LFS' responsibility to educate customers. Every forum, more experienced reefer and even common sense tells you not to buy anything you haven't read about and know how to provide for (requirements, toxicity etc).

ganjero
11/29/2011, 06:39 AM
Holy thread resurrection!

Lynnmw1208
11/29/2011, 06:58 AM
I'm a firm believer in Darwin-ism. The dumb woman at McDonalds with the coffee deserved to get burned. If you're dumb enough to buy toxic zoos without reading up on them, and then eating them, you deserve to get sick. Natural selection at it's best. It's widely known that you are to wash your hands after they've been in the tank or if you've just finished fragging. YOu never know what could have found it's way in there from the wild. This country has too many laws and regulations to prodect the idiots.

On another note, I had read one of the articles in the Zoanthid forum that it was only certain members of the family that carried the toxin. True?

lol this cracked me up :lol: I was thinking the same thing when I started reading this thread. Some people are just dumb and will eat the toxin anyway regardless of you telling them it's toxic. I mean there are videos on youtube where people are eating spoonfuls of cinnamon.... they KNOW it makes them sick but they do it anyway.

I do agree it would be nice for the store to let you be aware of it because I had no clue until I read it on this forum they were toxic. my husband was taken aback by them but I assured him I'd use the proper precautions. He was more concerned about our dog :/ I frag mine all the time though regardless of the toxicity of them. Just gotta wear protection!

rogersb
11/29/2011, 01:55 PM
This was brought up in the zoanthid forum recently and most members who frequent there didn't think a seller should be required to tell a buyer. I bought my first handgun about 6 months ago. The store owner asked me if I had ever bought one before and I said no. IIRC this was to see if I had ever been put through the system. He never told me not to load it and point it at my face.

schristi69
11/29/2011, 02:02 PM
You had no clue they were toxic, hence you did not research your purchase beforehand. If more people did RESEARCH before buying they would know what conditions/feeding your purchase needs, how different corals interact and what dangers they pose. There are many books out there on corals....one just needs to read them BEFORE they go buy. It should not be the stores responsibility to educate you....that is your job. We have got away from personal responsibility and accountability and prefer to blame someone else for our mistakes or lack of due diligence.

Khemul
11/29/2011, 02:34 PM
He never told me not to load it and point it at my face.
That's just silly of them. Always give the warning. If the customer shots his/herself in the face then they won't be coming back to buy another gun. It takes a few seconds and keeps the customer base alive and capable of spending their money. :lmao:


Just like with corals. "Do not eat the corals." A simple warning and the customer gets to return and continue spending money.

Also, this was some good forum necro. :thumbsup:

A_Z
11/29/2011, 03:36 PM
yes I think it should be required because for other venomous/poisonous organisms (like Lionfish) it is noted.

lluv24
11/29/2011, 03:41 PM
Does anybody have pics of the zoos that are toxic?

AquaReeferMan
11/29/2011, 04:28 PM
The company I work for lists the following information with all zoanthus sp. we offer. So we are doing our part of warning people who will not do any research themselves before buying something. Even this gets over looked sometimes...

"Zoanthid polyps secrete a toxin known as "palytoxin". This substance is known as one of the most powerful and dangerous toxins in nature, but a reaction beyond a mild skin rash is very rare. Avoid coming into contact with Zoanthid polyps for prolonged periods or with any open cuts or wounds; the use of gloves when handling your polyps is recommended."

C Dog
11/29/2011, 04:30 PM
No they should not be required to say that.

Eurobeaner
11/29/2011, 04:56 PM
warning this, warning that. research what you buy before you buy.... problem solved.

warning: hot coffee is hot
warning: choking hazard
warning: if you **** a dog off it will bite you
warning: if you cheat on your wife, she may castrate you
warning: if you east fast food constantly you will be fat
warning: when its icy out....its slick
warning: if you put a hairdryer in water..it can shock/kill you.

do we really need a warning about everything? ever been cut by paper? i think on every piece of paper in the world, the words "warning, may cut skin". i think its ridiculous

LOOK:: google search zoanthid. http://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=zoanthid+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

LOOK:: first link describes dangers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoantharia

5 seconds of searching gives you the information. people with a brain would/should/could find out this information. any potential buyer should search for what they are buying before they buy. its that simple

Khemul
11/29/2011, 05:20 PM
people with a brain would/should/could find out this information.

Those aren't the people that the warnings are concerned about. :lmao:

A_Z
11/29/2011, 05:36 PM
That's because a lionfish sting goes above and beyond the standard common sense precautions of working around an aquarium i.e. washing your hands, etc. Even if you wear latex gloves, a lionfish can easily puncture them with a spine. Comparing them is not quite the same.

I would disagree based on that same reasoning you should be a " responsible " pet owner and know what is dangerous and what is not, then Lionfish shouldn't have warnings either. Do your "research" before buying.

just pointing out the flawed logic in most of this thread and honestly comparing toxic animals to paper cuts is ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Eurobeaner
11/29/2011, 05:54 PM
before i buy an animal, i research it..... its that easy.