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raaden
03/07/2007, 09:39 PM
This thread, like the previous one (Reef-Farm Business Plan (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=898883) ) will hopefully be a great resource for how to setup and operate a reef-farm. I have finally put to rest the planning phase, and have started to receive equipment for setup so it seemed like the right place to get this going. If there is one thing I will say about writing a business plan it is that the plan itself is only half the journey. The other half of it is the incredible amount things that you never could have planned for. Things like: what permits and zoning issues should I look out for; where am I going to get all of the equipment, chasing down all of the forms you need to fill out and making sure they get to the right places; and lining up all of the suppliers and making sure things don't get lost or delayed in the shuffle. After the last few months I think I liked writing the business plan more :p

As things move forward I will try to get most of what I am doing into this thread, or on a web site I setup (http://www.reef-farm.net) to try and document what I am doing and how it is being done. Just like the last thread I am hoping for lots of input and ideas from you along the way. By default I am going to try to stick to the plan as much as possible but, one of the things I am looking forward to is to see how things evolve when they are actually being done. If things change from plan to real life, I hope that it will help anyone else who is working on something like this.

To give you an idea where I am starting from, I spent about 2.5 years planning and putting the pieces together for a business plan to operate a reef-farm. Most of the last year can be found in the thread listed above. It was not the best part (I hope) of the whole thing but it was well worth it. I have a solid plan for what I want to do, how I want to do it, and what I expect to get as returns. I basically finished the plan late fall and spent most of the winter trying to get contacts, suppliers, equipment, and all of the legal issues taken care of. It went even better than I thought it would. I have just about everything on its way, the business is setup, and I was able to get all of the rigamarole with the state taken care of (agricultural status... done).

I have the GH site (except for the base rock) prepped, but I still need to get utilities out there. I started getting in the some equipment and supplies
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/62561Jan-Feb_2007_071.jpg
, and have most of the rest of what I need to actually operate ready when I need it. I am definitely looking forward to actually getting things setup, though not so much all of the work involved in doing it all. It will definitely beat all of the running around and paper filing I have done the last few months.

BallaBooyeaH
03/08/2007, 05:13 AM
Raaden,

Great to see that this is now becoming a reality. you have planned so well I am sure this will be a success. i will be following closley as I plan by the end of the year to have a similiar setup in Ireland.

All the best and keep the posts comming. Any idea which Vat's you are going with? Are they similiar to Steve's?

Andrew

raaden
03/08/2007, 08:05 AM
Andrew,

Thanx for the kind words, I am also looking forward to seeing how your setup works out. It is great to see this sort of operation spreading to other parts of the world. This is a pretty exciting time to be starting a project like this.

As far as the vats go they will be more like the ones that Redox has (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9380734#post9380734) , than Stevens. They will be custom made fiberglass tanks, reinforced on the bottom, and raised up a bit on wooden stands. I looked at the tanks from Aquatic Ecosystems, but when you look at the vat cost and shipping, they were pretty expensive and didn't seem to be as strong in the long run as what I decided to get. Plus I could have them sized to exactly what I want, and they guy making them is just over 2 hours away so I can go and pick them up myself. If they turn out like Redox's then I will be more than happy with them.

BallaBooyeaH
03/08/2007, 08:25 AM
For the Vat's, I tried to do a cheap option for my Live rock holding tanks and got burnt. I purchased a steel Vat which was 10X5X3 foot and drilled holes in it for the pumps.
I lined it with Pond liner as it had chemicals in the tank B4 hand and where the tank connectors were needed I cut the liner and siliconed them all up.
Here is a picture of the finished product.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/IMG_0470.jpg
I went back yesterday which was 5 days later to find the water had made it's way into the liner and filled the tub. Better finding out now than later.
Anyway, It has put me back a week or two but I have now found these plastic vats that I am ordering for the job.
http://www.altaqua.co.uk/tanks.htm I will get the large round one. Expensive but what can i do. I was thinking of getting the steel vat lined with a powder coating plastic but at the end of the day it would cost just as much as the plastic vat.
I will be looking at the same place for the vats for the coral farm as well as they look like the business.
Unfortunately all the stuff I need has to be shipped from the UK so it just drives up the costs for me. What can I do ???

Well I'll let you know how it gets on - I bet you can't wait to start drilling holes in the ground to get the PT up?

Andrew

raaden
03/08/2007, 09:01 AM
Andrew,

Definitely better to find out now. Losing tons of LR would have been disasterous. Those tanks definitely seem like a pretty good deal.

Is your PT setup already... if so that was really fast.

You got that right about getting itchy to start. I already reserved the Post Hole Digger for the weekend of the 17th and hope to not have to cancel it.

apex003
03/08/2007, 09:09 AM
Raaden,
Awesome project you've got going. Haven't made it through the whole first thread, but it's great to read about someone going through with their business aspirations. I'm in Chapel Hill and would love to come out and see your operation some time. Good luck and I'll be following the thread to see how the local coral farm is evolving...

BallaBooyeaH
03/08/2007, 10:31 AM
Raaden,

PT is stage 2 of the business. Once I can guage the market in ireland as the only distributor I can see if the PT would be a good business model. I can also supply the UK and European markets - Thinking big now.
Once the Rock is running, I will be importing corals and distributing them. If all goes well then the Farm will be setup and that will eliminate the need for importing.

Andrew

wildcats
03/12/2007, 05:15 PM
Have you tried a product similar to www.sanitred.com, its essentially a inert polymer that is water tight and inert. Hopefully, once you know what it is you could find it locally. You might try a place that seals leaks in concrete or such. Anyway, worth a look.

H20ENG
03/12/2007, 06:14 PM
Raaden,
Congrats! I know you have worked your tail off getting this far. Much Kudos to you for sharing it with everyone along the way. Let me know if I can help in any way.
Back to lurking....
Chris

Philip Root
03/12/2007, 07:17 PM
Good luck..... If there is anything I can help you with let me know.....

BallaBooyeaH
03/13/2007, 02:46 AM
Raaden,

Well ditched the pond liner that had holes in it and replaced it with another one that is new. I am going to get Tunze pumps and submerse them for the flow. I got 4 X 6080's and looking at getting 2 X 6200. Expensive to do but not realy when you count the energy savings and the chance of loosing all that rock.
My big problem now is to find a submersible pump to feed the skimmer. I had a sequence for this job but guess i'll be looking at a big Ehiem or something similiar.

10 days till the rock arrives and I only have 1000l of NSW. Need to get more large IBC containers and get hauling.
I did tests on the NSW the other day. Got perfect readings for all Pramaters. Only thing was salinity was 1.032 - do will be adding the RO to dillute it down.

So has more stuff arrived for the PT? I was drive in the country side in Ireland heading home from work and saw 5 huge PT. They looks derilict. I was thinking of seeing if they were intrested in me taking one for a song - but then with the installing and the rest I am thinking of getting a new one. What footprint does your one have you are getting. I am thinking the longer the better, but then you have to heat it up so not sure if you would be better off with two. I am looking at leasing 1 acre of land - but hey - I can take 2, The land over here is cheap to lease. Farmers are giving up farming and it is not a lucrutive as it used to be. The shed I am in at the moment for the LR is owned by a farmer and he is letting me use it for nothing. He has 50 acres and I plan on using one or two for the PT. It will be close to the shed where the LR will be so it will handy to have stock of rock for placing frags on.

Andrew

raaden
03/13/2007, 06:33 AM
Glad to see everyone jumping into the new boat. Apex, Not sure I will have alot of visitors in the very beginning, as the rule is if you show up I WILL put you to work, but once things are running I will look into having some people or groups over.

H20Eng, Just so you know I haven't forgotten about our talks on the controllers, I am sure I will be looking you up for some info once things get setup and I have a bit of time to spend working out how I want to automate things. And Philip, always love seeing all the progress you have going on at The Garden. :)

The only other things I have received so far are the motors for the shutters and evap. cooler covers. I am hoping to hear some status for the rest of the parts today and according to the schedule it should all be shipping this week. It doesn't look like I will get it this week though so I'm probably going to try to get started next week.

As far as best shapes for the structure itself, that depends on what your biggest concern is. If structural concerns were not an issue a square house would provide the best climate control. Usability concerns would probably be specific to the actual layout being used and I would think you could design a layout that could make just about any footprint work. For my setup my biggest concern was exposure to the elements, and my largest costs will be heating the GH in the winter so I tried to find the squarest house I could to minimize this cost. I am not sure how much of a difference it will make but I with this setup I did shave about 20% off the surface area compared to the other layouts I looked at so it should make some difference.

As far as used GH's go... I would definitely suggest checking them out. I wish I would have looked a bit harder, as I have heard recently that you really can pick up houses for a song if you walk into the right circumstance and can handle all of the logistics involved. The biggest issue will probably be taking it apart and putting it back together. From what I hear they are not really meant to do such a thing but if you are careful it is doable. The posts will more than likely be achored with concrete (a pain to get up) but you can also get new anchors for not a whole lot if you need to.

raaden
03/14/2007, 08:36 PM
It looks like things are a go for this weekend. I got my shipping confirmation for the rest of the structure and equipment and am expecting it on Friday. I also called to make sure I was still reserved for the post-hole digger and that is all set.

Unfortunately I forgot to get the site marked by the electric company GRRrrr. I don't know if 2 days is enough notice but I am going to call them tomorrow morning to see if they can mark the site. I know there is a line that runs near the site, but I am not sure how close. I definitely need this to be done before I can start on the holes.

Also for all of those who offered help next weekend and the one after that would both be great times if you can make it and want to get in on the construction part of it, if so let me know so I can have enough Adult Liquid Refreshment on hand. I have a couple other people that will be there for both so there is no pressure, but you are welcome to come lend a hand. If you can't make those I will also need some help in another few weeks after that with the piping and running electrical so there will be plenty of opportunities.

If I do get to start working on the site this weekend I am sure that I will have lots of updates next week on all that is happening. I am also going to try to layout the plan that I am working on as I get through each part. I spent the last week trying to put things in an order that I think will help get them done best. Too many things lately have slipped through the cracks and that is a sign that you need to lay out a plan. That will be the next thing I put up here

hamburglar
03/15/2007, 10:36 AM
This is going to be a cool thread. I can already tell. How many of those vats were you estimating you would use at first?

I'll aready be in Raleigh for Hockey on the 24th. Also no plans yet for the following weekend. Hockey again in Raleigh the next weekend. Looks like I should be able to help out without many problems.

pleaselaunchme
03/15/2007, 04:59 PM
I've got a stupid question, but it is one I cannot find an answer to for the life of me. What does PT stand for?

BTW, Raaden, I've enjoyed following your threads, and am looking forward to seeing this all come together for you.

Ben

BallaBooyeaH
03/15/2007, 05:18 PM
I can answer that one - Polly Tunnel - It is the green house that is used to get the sunlight in to grow the corals rather than using electronic lights.

Raaden - Must be hanging out for that delivery...

Good Luck

raaden
03/15/2007, 07:20 PM
PT = Polytunnel (it is what those across the pond call a Greenhouse)

Well it is definitely on the way. I should have it tomorrow according to the freight company. It sounds really strange, but I am looking forward to getting all of the work started and even anxious to put in the work as well. After spending so long planning it is nice to actually see some results.

Ham,

If you are going to be in the area I can definitely put you to work :hammer: . In fact the 24th would be awesome if you can make it. The other weekend I can really use help is when I put the covering up. I am not sure when that will be yet, I would like to get the vats in and setup (BTW I hope to start with 12) first and also want to get atleast the gas and electricity as well. I might be able to get all that done by the next game but I am not sure how fast the utility companies will be.

pleaselaunchme
03/16/2007, 01:20 PM
Guys-
Figured it had something to do with the greenhouse structure, not sure how I didn't figure that one out.

Thanks,
Ben

jefathome
03/16/2007, 01:48 PM
I've wondered about using natural light for coral gorwth.
Down here in SoCal, we have some BRIGHT sun.. and up in the high desert there is full sun almost every day.

The question I've always had was if it would cost more to run chillers to keep the temps down than you would save in the lighting costs.

Maybe if you ran a huge geo-thermal chiller, that would work.
Summer temps can get up to 105.

raaden
03/16/2007, 02:11 PM
jefathome,

That is the 64k question... or in my case, does it cost more to heat the GH in the winter. In my case it looks like a slightly above break-even for the winter and then the profits will come in the other seasons.

A geothermal while quite expensive to install is definitely something I am considering to lower costs if I decide to expand the facility in the future.

raaden
03/16/2007, 10:03 PM
I have one thing to say for today... Determination. In the middle of a nasty storm (atleast it wasn't heavy snow :) ) I got the delivery of the greenhouse structure.
And many thanks to the ABF Delivery guy, he was awesome. I didn't even want to be out in this stuff but he was out there with me hauling the 16' pipe spans off the truck and into the barn. Thank goodness it is going to be nicer tomorrow for boring all the holes and mounting the anchors.

I now have almost all of the deliveries except for some fans, the cooler, and all of the shudders. It is nice seeing it in the barn but it will be even nicer seeing it all setup outside.


http://lh5.google.com/image/reef.farmin/Rftf1hmT-fI/AAAAAAAAACg/-xNXLfMvBVI/s800/IMG_0454.JPG
My Buddy the ABF Guy




http://lh6.google.com/image/reef.farmin/Rftf3xmT-gI/AAAAAAAAACk/c5QmPMu3Dwg/s800/IMG_0456.JPG
Boxes of brackets and whatnot

http://lh5.google.com/image/reef.farmin/Rftf5hmT-hI/AAAAAAAAACo/iF714jpLK_s/s800/IMG_0457.JPG
and can I tell you how many,
http://lh4.google.com/image/reef.farmin/Rftf8RmT-iI/AAAAAAAAACs/2-4MC0h0k0g/s800/IMG_0458.JPG
Many,
http://lh6.google.com/image/reef.farmin/RftilxmT-jI/AAAAAAAAACM/nNKv7uY1V9A/s800/IMG_0459-1.JPG
Many,
http://lh6.google.com/image/reef.farmin/RftimxmT-kI/AAAAAAAAACU/FYJEy5a_b7c/s800/IMG_0461-1.JPG
bundles of metal pipes
http://lh3.google.com/image/reef.farmin/RftfzBmT-eI/AAAAAAAAACc/YxBghLHftq0/s800/IMG_0462.JPG
Making sure he gets up the hill alright.

It mostly cleared up by the time we were done but it was still slippery getting the truck up the hill.

The Weekend: Mark off and dig 26 Holes, and once that is done start laying the anchors.

Invisible Reef
03/19/2007, 12:20 AM
Thanks for the business plan. It looks solid. If I add anything worthwhile I will send it back.

raaden
03/20/2007, 10:41 AM
Invisible Reef, that would be great, even if you don't have anything to add I would love to hear what you think about it.

redox
03/21/2007, 05:39 AM
any luck with my fiberglass guy? sorry to hear about your fuel pump , that must have been what was causing your troubles the other day:( . well at least it went out at home:D looks like you got a really good start here. good luck with the rest.

raaden
03/21/2007, 06:17 AM
Redox,

I talked to him about a week and a half ago and he seemed like he wanted to do it but haven't heard from him since, He is on my list of people to call this afternoon.

I am pretty sure that was it when I was down... I was really hoping it was bad gas, and $700 later I could have paid for a whole lot of bad gas :( . I am glad it happened here, and it is fixed and working so it hasn't put me too far behind. I should be back to where I want to be by the end of next week.

raaden
03/21/2007, 07:08 AM
Well I am behind on posting so I will try to catch up. We broke ground this weekend, and have been working on the site all week. I might have to slow down a bit, with all of the temp changes (+- 30-40 degrees from day to day lately) I am starting to not feel so well.

I am almost to the point where I wanted to be going into the weekend so i might just finish that up and take the last two days off to rest up.

If you go to the website www.reef-farm.net you can see all of the updates. We got the holes dug and some of the posts are set, but the rock is going to be the hold up at the moment...

More to come

H20ENG
03/21/2007, 04:32 PM
Awesome Raaden! Congrats on finally digging dirt. I just checked out the site.
My brother in law rented one of those augers for his new fence. He promptly buried the bit on the second hole and it wouldnt budge. I got some wrenches and luckily the hydraulic fittings were the same size. Swapped the hoses to reverse the bit and we got it out :hammer: Why they dont make the bit reversible with a 3 way shuttle valve is beyond me....

You know, I was thinking about something. Should you lay down a vapor barrier inside the GH before filling it with gravel? Overlap the vapor barrier into a floor drain line to remove the water from spills, etc. It seems that the large surface area of the earth underneath would sweat and cause a LOT of undue condensation to deal with. I know in a survival situation you can actually get water this way. This may be old news, but it just crossed my mind.
Did Rick Rottet use a vapor barrier? Treeman?

On a side note, Does anybody know what ever happened to Scubadude here on RC?

raaden
03/21/2007, 06:35 PM
H2O, I know what you mean, I got mine stuck quite a few times as the clay was a bit moist from the rain a few days ago. The digger I got had a reverse on it, and boy did it prove useful.

The vapor barrier is a question I have just been thinking about. More for the grass blocking, and to hopefully keep ants out. The only thing I think would miss is some of the heat from the ground coming in during the winter. What I am planning on doing is to put down some of that lawn plant blocking film, and some of that heavy black plastic. I am considering tar paper, but I am not sure if that is a good idea or not.

I don't remember Rick doing that, I think he just put the rock in on the ground.

I haven't seen scubadude on here at all lately...

H20ENG
03/21/2007, 08:07 PM
"The only thing I think would miss is some of the heat from the ground coming in during the winter"

Hmmm. I wonder though, if that heat coming in as water vapor would simply turn to condensation on the film then run right off.

I'll ask Rick if he's heard recommendations one way or the other.

raaden
03/25/2007, 07:35 PM
H20, I think you are right, and I have decided to go with a 6 mil plastic on the ground under the rocks. The moisture might help a bit but I think the amount of evap from the tanks in the winter will mask most of it. I will be laying out the plastic this week and I hope to not tear it up too much when the rock is delivered but if it does oh well.

This weekend went pretty well, (http://reef-farm.net/week2.aspx) I recruited some more help from a neighbor, and finished all of the anchor posts and test fit one of the spans so I could get an idea of what sort of room there would be once it is all up. Along with a couple of his ideas I have saved myslef a ton of work, and (with a little help from the weather) should be back on schedule by the end of next week.
Here is a pic with the span in place.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0779.JPG

There is about 4' of height 6" in from the ends. This is better than I had hoped and should allow me to get the extra set of tanks I wanted in. Now I can dedicate a tank to attachment and keep the flow real low in there as well as use more shade. From the way it looks I should be able to get all of the equipment and storage in the middle of the GH and use the long walls for rows of tanks. This should make either 20 or 24 tanks depending on how much room there is once I start setting them up.

If this week goes well and the weather holds up I should be able to get everything up to the covering and equipment mounting done by next Sunday. If thats the case it would be great and would mean that I am still on track to get some tanks filled by the middle of April.

roader247
03/25/2007, 07:41 PM
Good Luck and Keep us posted

Mark

hamburglar
03/29/2007, 09:07 AM
Just a quick note on something I thought of last night.....

You were talking about the actual useable space afforded by the "higher than expected sidewalls". You will still end out with a couple of feet that are not useable because of the height. This space is really nice for plumbing and other conduit, but what if you could add some passive heating to this area. I'm picturing simple 2-foot tall lengths cheap plywood (ripped from 4x8 sheets) that run the entire length of the southern facing sidewall, panted black. Over the entire length of the house, this has got to produce a little additional heat. The plywood could be covered with a reflactive material like mylar in the summer months to provide the opposit effect.

raaden
03/30/2007, 01:52 PM
hammy (sorry, had to do it :lol2: ),

That is not a bad idea. I considered using clearish white barrels in the summer and darker barrels in the winter to achieve the same affect, but it wouldn't hurt to give that a try as well. The only thing I can think of is: during the winter the temps inside with the sun out are expected to be pretty good, it is once the sun goes down that it becomes an issue. This leads me to believe that I need something that can absorb the heat when the sun is out and then give it back off when the sun goes down. maybe make plywood boxes painted black with wax or something in them. hmmm will have to think on this

I am also thinking of using insulation rolls in the bottom couple of feet between the posts and covering to keep some heat in during the winter.

hamburglar
03/30/2007, 09:16 PM
Heck, fill them with dirt or sand.

redox
03/31/2007, 04:38 PM
so how much did you get done after lunch? lets see some pics.

raaden
03/31/2007, 09:54 PM
redox, Sonja, Greg, and Hamburglar

You guys (and gal) are the sh@t. Thank you so much for the help. We got the whole top done, (minus the side purlins) as well as making the 2x12's work. I'm too tired for the pics tonight but I will get them up tomorrow. alright one quick teaser

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0793.JPG

The thing is really starting to look like a GH

RedSonja
04/01/2007, 11:13 AM
Heh, you're quite welcome, next time we'll try to not be quite so late. :)

I see you posted this at almost midnight, is that when y'all ran out of beer? :D

-Sonja

raaden
04/03/2007, 12:24 PM
Thanx again to all for the help
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9620907#post9620907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RedSonja
I see you posted this at almost midnight, is that when y'all ran out of beer? :D
-Sonja

Just about, we ended up working for a bit more after you left, mostly because I caught a second wind and it was still a bit light out. We wanted to get the small ends on the baseboard closest to the door side lined up. Since they are so small the fear was that the pressure from the rock might want to push the baseboard out with just the nails holding it. We did finish in time to watch the late NCAA game, even though it was hardly a game.

RedSonja
04/03/2007, 12:34 PM
So are you getting gravel tomorrow, did you get all the stuff done to be ready for that?

-Sonja

raaden
04/03/2007, 12:48 PM
Once again the update is a couple of days behind (http://reef-farm.net/structcomplete.aspx) (I figure it is better for the updates to be running behind vs. the greenhouse :D ), but I promise it is worth it. I meant to get this up Sunday but was so tired I barely did anything but run out and get the supplies I need for the upcoming week. Then yesterday I had to get all of the gaps filled in with temporary boards so that I can get the rock in tomorrow.

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0787.JPG

As you can see from the picture above the structure is pretty much complete and just sitting there begging to be covered in plastic. You would probably do the same if you were left out in a field with all your bones showing :p. Hopefully that will get taken care of this weekend (hoping I can get my crew back for one more week) and then the next week I will work on getting the equipment in place.

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0785.JPG

Saturday was quite a day, and we got so much done that Sunday when I woke up I just sat in bed an reminisced about all the stuff we did (that and I was so sore I could barely get up). We got all the ribs in place, the baseboards set, the top ridge pole locked down, and came up with some good ideas for how to get the plastic done this coming Saturday.

If all works out well this coming weekend the only part that still concerns me is getting the utilities in. When I was laying out the plan I made a list of things that I thought could be trouble points. They were: getting the order in and delivered (based on my experience in the fall), getting the ground prepped for construction (we have a lot of big rock in the area), getting the strcuture lined up and raised sturdily, and getting the utilities in and ready for startup. I didn't put the plastic on the list as I think that is just a manpower issue and as long as I can get the help I need it should work out well. Everything from the list has gone great and I don't have any reason to think the utilities will be an issue as I have talked to a couple of people that should be able to handle most of it.

hamburglar
04/03/2007, 07:36 PM
I spy the Hamburglar in that bottom pic! I'm still good for Saturday if you are ready for plastic then.

BallaBooyeaH
04/04/2007, 01:28 AM
Well DOne Raaden - The dream is getting closed to a reailty - Do you think you will have stock in B4 Steve?

The race starts

But me a ticket to the USA and I'll give you a hand.

Andrew

raaden
04/04/2007, 07:39 PM
Today was quite the day as well. We got the gravel in and spread as well as put up the purlins. We also had our first 'casualty', we bent one of the ribs with the tractor trying to spread out the gravel, but it went mostly back in place and I think it will be fine. Pics tomorrow

Saturday looks like a go as long as Sonja and Greg are available. I still haven't heard from a few maybes, but I will see who else I can get tomorrow. We came up with a few ideas for running the plastic and even if the maybes are out we should be good. I should have 7 for sure and I think I can count on 1-2 maybes.

I am pretty sure Steve will get stuff in his before I do. I am still many weeks away from having anything good in the GH. I am shooting for getting some rock curing by the end of the month, but that depends on how the vat building goes. I have some new leads on that front thanx to Hamburglar.

More tomorrow

RedSonja
04/04/2007, 07:52 PM
Glad you got the gravel done, looking forward to the new pics. Greg & I both have come down with some kind of cold or flu virus, he's stayed home from work (and NOT worked from home) the past two days and he almost never does that. Hopefully we'll be over it by Saturday though, will let ya know.

-Sonja

BallaBooyeaH
04/05/2007, 01:56 AM
Hey I started curing a little live rock over here in ireland. Here is 1000kg of fiji rock curing away.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/IMG_0808.jpg

Let us know how your weekend gets on.

hamburglar
04/05/2007, 08:56 AM
Raaden, I also have a bunch or fully cured aragocrets frag rocks sitting around if you need some. My wife keeps asking me what I'm going to do with all of them. They were all cured for 3 months in fresh water.

raaden
04/05/2007, 02:18 PM
Good looking stuff Balla,

Ham, when I get the vats in if you are still trying to get rid of the rubble I will be more than happy to take it off your hands.

The gravel came in this week (http://reef-farm.net/pushinggravel.aspx) and thanx to the neighbors equipment and my blistered hands and aching back it has been spread and is looking good. I also decided to 'tighten' up the structure a bit by sinking some rebar on the framed ends and man did that make a difference. The thing is getting really solid and you can hardly move it by hand (although you can certainly bend the pipe with a front loader :p Is ok though it went almost back straight ).

The plastic is next up and depending on the what the weather looks like for Saturday it may not happen this weekend after all. Weather.com is now calling for pretty heavy winds on Saturday and that would not be good for people holding a 40'x60' 'sail'. If it doesn't change by early tomorrow we will have to postpone the covering until next weekend.

I will send out an email to those who are helping and let you know.

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0800.jpg
good pic of the first load of gravel (17 tons)

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0804.jpg
pic of one of the rebar locations (on the edge of the door opening), and the two most important tools of the day... Shovel and Mt. Dew. BTW that was one of the six bottles

http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0807.jpg
Greenhouse as it stands now.

chillaxe123
04/05/2007, 02:34 PM
is there any chance the vats/tanks will become unlevel with just gravel. i always thought you had to have a cocrete foundation

raaden
04/05/2007, 07:17 PM
A concrete foundation would be ideal (but extremely expensive) and the type of gravel that I am using packs pretty tight once it has been wet a couple of times. I will also be using pavers where the feet of the stands go and that should hold them pretty tight as well. If that still won't give a strong base I will probably pour some concrete footers where the stands will sit and just dig out the gravel there.

The local weather people are calling for less wind than what weather.com is expecting, and with all the trees around it shouldn't be that bad onsite, so I am thinking that we will give it a go on Saturday. Everyone keep their fingers crossed and I will let you all know as things go forward.

I also spoke with the head installer at the greenhouse company and he gave me some really good ideas for ways that we can do things to make it work. He said that he has four man crews out putting up much larger sheets of plastic in 20 mph winds, granted they do this all the time, but with the 8-10 people that I am expecting he thought we should be able to pull it off, or put it on as the case may be :D.

TIMMYE
04/08/2007, 03:16 PM
Things are looking good!! I am glad to see things are going good. As far as the gravel goes I would really wet it down and rent a compactor like they use for doing concret work. This will make it really compact and easy for you pavers. Cant wait to see more updates.

raaden
04/10/2007, 12:24 PM
Well last week was kind of a bust. The wind was pretty calm all week and I started to get my hopes up that I could still get the plastic up, but then Saturday morning sure enough the wind was here and the plastic stayed on the roll. How is it that the weather people are never right except the one time when they say it will be nasty the day you need to get something done.

So that the entire weekend was not a bust I did go out Friday and Saturday and look at some doors. I found a darn nice insulated glass double door that was $150 less than anything else I could find because it had some greasy hand prints on it... Sold!!!! Then I spent the rest of Saturday framing in the door and taking care of a sick kid.

The 'new and improved plan' is to try for this weekend on getting the plastic up. Sunday looks kind of rough right now with wind and spotty showers on the forecast, but Saturday looks ok as long as it doesn't get any worse. I really need to get this done pronto as it is holding up everything else I need to get done. Right now the list looks like this. I get the plastic up and then I can work the utilities, and mounting the equipment, but until the plastic is up I can't really do any of that.

Earlier I said that I think the key to this project was determination, I am going to modify it now to be patient determination. I have been trying to put things into perspective and find out what is driving my milestones and I think the big thing is that I would really like to get some sort of revenue by November when the heating bills start to kick in. With my growout plans, that would put me into May to have vats loaded and growing.

RedSonja
04/10/2007, 12:46 PM
Yeah, we were trying to salve our conscience on not being up to helping out by saying it looked too windy to be fighting plastic "sails." :D Today I am finally feeling somewhat back to human again, trying to catch up with a week's worth of tank maintenance, bta cutting, zoa fragging, and picture taking to try to sell some stuff. That's not even taking into account the second job - housework. :/

I won't answer for Greg, but if the weather's good this Saturday then I at least will be out to help. He probably will too but best to let him say so. ;)

-Sonja

Nammy
04/11/2007, 07:44 PM
Looking good Raaden,
I bet you're there everyday even if there is nother to do, I know I would ;)

raaden
04/12/2007, 07:21 AM
Consider yourself salved, while I greatly appreciate the help, I don't want you guys to feel obligated. there will be plenty to do and I can always use the help whenever it is available :D.

Nammy, you got that right, unfortunately both parts have been right lately. With the plastic still sitting in the barn I am sort of on hold, and trying to get a bunch of little things lined up. These last couple of weeks are proving to be rough, I can go to the site and see the GH but there really isn't much I can do until the GH is covered. Once it is though.... watch out it will be fast and furious from there ;)

Quick update (although there is not much to update :( ). The weather is looking bad again this weekend for getting the plastic up, so I am going to try to get started on getting the utilities run out to the GH. I hope to get the electrical and water out there this week, and will wait on the gas to see if they will handle the entire hookup to the heater.

raaden
04/13/2007, 08:20 AM
Well, a bit of good news for once. I have someone that is going to oversee the electrical and water installs at the GH so that is a go for the weekend :celeb1: :celeb2: YAY. There will be lots of hand digging (3 ft deep) and I get a chance to use a trencher for the majority of the run. This will work out pretty nice as it will leave me only a week behind on the overall plan.

If all goes well, and I can get a nice Sunday, I should have the mains for the Electrical and water in the GH early next week. While this is great I still have to get the plastic up before I can really do anything with either of them, but progress is being made.

In the "you knew it was going to happen department" next weekends forecast is calling for spotty showers all weekend although the wind should not be as bad. The temps are looking pretty warm and it may be a bring your raincoat day for putting up the plastic.

WarDaddy
04/13/2007, 11:24 AM
"In the "you knew it was going to happen department" next weekends forecast is calling for spotty showers all weekend although the wind should not be as bad. The temps are looking pretty warm and it may be a bring your raincoat day for putting up the plastic."

sounds like fun, too bad I am busy this weekend :P

redox
04/15/2007, 10:03 AM
by the looks of the weather I guess there are no reef farm opperations today:(

PokeHero93
04/15/2007, 12:15 PM
can someone please tell me how to make a reef tank....i haven't figured it out yet..there is a 50 gallon tank at my house, and i want to turn it into a reef tank and put seahorses in it..i need help........i have the tank ,sump,correct pipes and stuff, and everything else i need....i just want to turn it into a reef tank before i get seahorses. can someone tell me which corals are harmless to seahorses and post pictures of them PLEASE. THANX

redox
04/15/2007, 12:34 PM
you might want to post that question in a different forum. sea horses are not really reef compatible. try the seahorse forum;)

PokeHero93
04/15/2007, 12:58 PM
THANX...i posted it everywhere on RC

BallaBooyeaH
04/15/2007, 05:02 PM
try www.seahorseireland.com they have a list of what is compatable and not.

Radden - is the plastic up?

RedSonja
04/16/2007, 12:18 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9732206#post9732206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PokeHero93
THANX...i posted it everywhere on RC

Try posting it just in the "new to the hobby" forum. Spamming the entire forum annoys people and makes your chances of getting help much smaller.

-Sonja

RedSonja
04/16/2007, 12:20 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9733730#post9733730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BallaBooyeaH
Radden - is the plastic up?

Judging by the weekend's weather around here, I doubt it. :( We're having a lot of wind still today and the electricity here has blinked off a few times. Eeeek. Glad we have gas for the generator.

-Sonja

hamburglar
04/16/2007, 12:22 PM
Redsonja got to him first.

I wanted to at least say, have fun killing the seahorses!

RedSonja
04/16/2007, 12:28 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9740071#post9740071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hamburglar
Redsonja got to him first.

I wanted to at least say, have fun killing the seahorses!

Hopefully they'll listen to the advice they get and not try seahorses right away. I'm only now feeling brave enough to try 'em, and just the dwarfs at that.

-Sonja

redox
04/16/2007, 03:15 PM
good thing the plastics not up, it might have been torn off in this wind:D I was up that way today and its good to be back at the beach

raaden
04/16/2007, 04:29 PM
I'm glad I waited too, the wind was ridiculous today. The weather station was saying that there were gust up to 45 in some parts. I think it was Mother Nature telling me that my patience was a good idea.

Seahorses = bad idea until your system is well matured.

Well the electric and water are in the house. I will post more a little later tonight(once I get a chance to get the pics uploaded).

redox
04/16/2007, 06:05 PM
I am upgrading to a commercial chiller unit this weekend. I hope it does what I need it to. I have gone 2 years without it and its time to go on and do it:D back in fuquay for another 3 days:(

raaden
04/16/2007, 07:05 PM
Water and Electric (http://reef-farm.net/utils.aspx) are (just about) on site and and things are finally looking good for getting the plastic up. Both days look like they will work and the conditions should be awesome, not much wind and temps cool enough to work in. I know what you're thinking "I'll believe it when I see it..." I am staying positive this time.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0811.JPG

If I hadn't been forced to play a shell game with the wires and pipes, drain a 3 foot deep trench, and fight off the weather; this weekend would have been a huge success. As it is I got >80% of the work done to get Water and electricity into the GH, and the rest I should be able to finish up this week.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0813.JPG

Even better I got to play with the biggest freakin chainsaw I have ever seen, and got to put my plumbing *ahem skills ahem* to use. I also found out how much copper has gone up in the last few years... had I used copper wire for the run it would have cost me almost $1,000 for the underground wire alone. Yeah I opted for aluminum :rolleyes: .
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0810.JPG

During the week I have to finish the hand digging (Mother Nature cut my weekend pretty short), wire up the breaker boxes, and fill in the trench. Should be doable, and will leave me in a great spot for getting the plastic up.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0808.JPG

raaden
04/16/2007, 07:09 PM
redox,

Was there a specific reason for the chiller decision or is it just the next step in the evolution.

P.s. Bill took me by your old stompin grounds this weekend on the way to pick up the GH mains. He also took me through some super high end neighborhood near there... I thought wakefield was outrageous; this place was ridiculous with how expensive the houses were.

BallaBooyeaH
04/17/2007, 01:19 AM
Raaden,

Was the direction the greenhouse was setup due to the sunrise and sunset? Or is it just where iot is as it could fit on the land nice and easy?
I was wondering if there is any diffrence witht he way the sunlight penetrates the GH during the morning and evening?
Also are all the trees around the GH going to block out a huge amount of light needed for the growing? Have you taken light readings in the area?

I am getting ready to start more formal plannings for my GH in Ireland. I am looking for a grant and in meetings on thursday to see what are nthe next steps - As a general election is aroung the corner - nothing will happen till it is all over. But I will be there with my hand out once it is.
I have recently been denied my license for taking out saltwater from the sea. Due to it being a conservation area for birds - go figure?? still I can change my application and re-submit. They also are saying that they do not want me to import CITES listed corals - If we are looking at propergation - then CITES spicies should be included to eliminate the need to take these from the reef.
Do you have a list of the main coral you are going to propergate? Any idea's where the brood stock is coming from? I have seen some amazing coloured Zoo's - and some terrible ones. I am planning on a trip to the states to select the best of the best stock for Brood stock. Still along way away - but as you have showen - dREAMS AND PLANNING COME TRUE.

Keep up the work.

Steven Pro
04/17/2007, 05:42 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9745880#post9745880 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BallaBooyeaH
Was the direction the greenhouse was setup due to the sunrise and sunset? Or is it just where iot is as it could fit on the land nice and easy? According to "Ball Redbook: Greenhouses and Equipment, Volume 1" greenhouses north of the 39th parallel should run north south while those below should be layed out east to west.

BallaBooyeaH
04/17/2007, 05:46 AM
Steve - How do I find out where I sit on the whole Parallel? Here is my location of the site via google maps.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=cork+ireland&layer=&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=11&ll=52.054602,-7.640305&spn=0.199712,0.407867&iwloc=addr

You can zoom out and see where I am in the world.

Can I ask where your operations are located - Just want to see if the light would be comparable to where your Steve and Radden are located.

Steven Pro
04/17/2007, 06:06 AM
I am in Pittsburgh and am north of the 39th parallel. The line pretty much runs through Columbus Ohio here in the states.

raaden
04/17/2007, 06:09 AM
I used a GPS to find my coords, but you can use this site (http://www.getty.edu/research/conducting_research/vocabularies/tgn/index.html) to get the location for major cities, I also think Google Earth will give it to you as well.

According to "Ball Redbook: Greenhouses and Equipment, Volume 1" greenhouses north of the 39th parallel should run north south while those below should be layed out east to west.
Steven is dead on with this. The reason for it is that you will get significantly more sun if the GH is North to South in the winter in Northern Latitudes. The reason you do it the other way in southern Latitudes is that you will get more even lighting as the sun travels through the greenhouse rather than across it. In reality most of the people I talked to suggested always going North to south even in the lower latitudes.

Balla, you and Steven are definitely north of the 39th Parallel (roughly located at the Mason Dixon line in the Eastern US), and I am south of it. The coordinates for Cork proper are Cork, IRE: 51n54, 8w28, Ireland, and my actual latitude is 35 and change. With that said my GH is Located 7 degrees off Magnetic East to West. In my case the the land was the biggest decider and where I could get the best sun with the given layout. I also was able to section out the GH and allow for a few shaded areas and a few direct sun areas. I am hoping this will alllow me to study light levels and how different species react to lighting.

raaden
04/17/2007, 06:57 AM
As for the rest of the q's

the light properties of Sunrise and Sunset are almost identical in my area. You can see some differences in some places (i.e. if you are East or West of a big city). Things that will cause Sunrise and Sunset to be different are mostly things that create atmospheric disturbance; weather, smog, dust/sandstorms that occur to one side or the other of your location. All anomalies ignored Sunrise and sunset are going to produce light very high in the nm spectrum and will appear deep yellow to deep red. Whereas light in the midday will shift to the lower nm spectrum and will give you a bluer hue. This has huge affects on photosynthesizing organisms which I won't get into here but if you are interested I can give you more info personally. My setup will shade for a good portion of the sunrise and sunset (which for my intentions will be a huge plus), and will have almost direct light for the midday. Once again this was intentional and was a large part of why i chose this particular location.

The trees that you see form a sort of Horseshoe around the area leaving the South open completely for the most part. This is completely what I was looking for. Like I said above I was looking for something that would shade 30-40% of the sunrise and sunset but still leave me unblocked daytime light once the sun reaches about 20 degrees. With the south being open I will get less shading in the winter (again a huge plus when there is less light to be had) and will still be able to get the light needed even on the shortest days. Being in a souther latitude I will also get a longer daylight period in the winter than northern latitudes, another plus.

As far as grants, I am not sure how it is in the UK but most of the grants I was able to find are mostly performance grants. What I mean by that is that you can get a grant to do a certain study or produce a certain paper. I would love to have found a grant for setting up the facility but unfortunately I wasn't able to find anything that applied. I attribute that to this being such a new type of operation. I found plenty of money if I wanted to setup a food producing aquaculture facility, but I am not sure anyone would eat Ricordeas or Leathers, :eek: I don't understand why :confused:. My intention is to get up and running and then start looking into the performance grants.

It doesn't surprise me that you were denied your saltwater access, especially if it is near a protected area. In the US it is pretty much the same way. I looked into this in Virginia Beach, and I couldn't even setup my operations within 5 miles of the beach for fear that something might happen in my facility and release something into the ocean or into the surrounding protected areas.

If I were you I would ask for more information or a summary of why you are being banned from Cites imports. I have ideas why, but I won't go into them here. I would also ask them if they are referring to Cites listed corals or Cites covered corals. I think there is a difference, and one would mean you can't even bring in aquacultured versions of those corals as well. Nammy and I were talking about this, and my understanding is that you can import certified aquacultured corals even if they are cites listed/covered without a permit or levies. I would look into that and if you find that it is true let me know and I will get you what you need.

I am looking to start with a combination of softies (mostly rics, xenia, leathers, some zo's), some sps (mostly acros, but a few monti's) and macroalgae, as well as feeding supplies(phyto-, and zoo-planktons).

I am planning on getting my broodstock from all over, but like most others I will start with what I have already and see how it goes from there.

When you do make it to the States look me up, hopefully by then I will have something working and I can take you on a tour.

BallaBooyeaH
04/17/2007, 07:26 AM
WIll take you up on that offer of a tour. Before i take the plunge I plan on visiting yourself / Steven Pro / Dude in Florida and also Ricky rocket.

On this I will plan the best setup for what I want to achieve and hopefully take way what works and what does not.

I have followed rickey's thread and when it all went bad - it put a big damper on my idea's - but better to learn from someone that has hit a wall than to do it your self.

I have sent of responses regarding the CITES and I feel that I should get around this. I am currently getting and going through 2000 liters of natural seawater at the moment - Rather than telling the guys at the wharf it is for the tank at home - I want the premit so I am not codding anyone. well it is also going i my tank at home once setup.

Without the NSW I could not turn a profit - even tho already small on the live rock. i have had 1000kg for 3 weeks now - sold 80kg and a further 160 ouit next week. I am doing the rounds in Dublin next week to tie up retail shops and dropping off samples of the product. I should have my invert system live this weekend and have my first shipment of snails / crabs and shrimps ready for the call around to the shops.

Once this channel is setup I will sell the aquacultured corals to them and I can also look at the export to the UK where I believe they are all chop shops over there and no one is aquaculturing under the sun - only MH.

So that is the plan. see how it panns out - keeping the day job till things are cosy enought to pay the bills from proffits - but I can see this is going to take some time.

Steve - By the way - I have the Aquamedic 5000 Shorth running - Doing a grest job, She is pulling out a nice smelly skimiate from the LR vat - I have it running with the Big monster skimmer just to test it out. Must say - I am happy with it.

Andrew

raaden
04/19/2007, 10:28 AM
Well things are looking good for the plastic this weekend. I have a few people that have offered to help, and the weather looks good. I hope with the bad weather behind us now that things will go smoothly and this makes for a good weekend. If I can get the plastic up on all the sides that would be a huge step. That will allow me to wire up the electric and start mounting the equipment. Then all i need is to get a vat builder and I will have stuff out there in no time.

Balla,
I definitely know what you mean watching Ricks thread. There was a couple of times when I wasn't sure if I would be able to pull it off, but seeing his persistence and determination reminded me that all it takes is hard work and a will do mindset and it will happen.

Good work on getting some customers and making the initial sales. I know that must feel good. If you lose out on the Nat SW thing you should look into what Dick Perrin has done. He has been running a similar setup in Michigan and does it completely without water changes. I am going to try this out on a few sections and hope that I can do the same.

It is definitely a time investment. With my latest revision to the plan, I am considering the first 16 months to be all investment with little return while all the growout happens. Then once I have a good set of broodstock I will start to piece out sales. The only exception is that I might try to break even on costs through selling for the winter. It is hard to convince the wife that I will be spending the amount of money I am anticipating with nothing coming in.

BallaBooyeaH
04/19/2007, 01:45 PM
Hey Raaden,

Well meet up with the local business helpers her ein Ireland - Went over my plans for the PT and aquaculture - Showed them my (your modified) BP and they were intrested.
They are going to work with me to get a BP prepared for the Enterprise board in Ireland looking for funding.
Deal with grants over here is the product must be export - Fine as the market here is so small and it must be a wholesale product - fine again.

So I need to get them some more information and I can model it from other is the USA for the BP. So I am hoping yourself Steve and others can help me so I can see if this can happen.

What I need is the following;
Firstly a list of other PT growers that you know of - Ricky, The guy in Florida - can't remember his name or find the thread and others - Anthony Calfo etc.
I need to map out the European market for wholesale / channels / competitors and the retail spend in the industry - I can get that wasy enough.
I need to show the strengths and weakness of the business, Threats and oppoutunities - i guess something along the line of Pharma companys using stony corls would also be helpful.

I guess I am in BP mode and will need to get spot on for the financials. Can you tell me if an aquacultured coral gets a higher price than a wild piece? I assume it would due to the known environment.
Can you tell me who would be the major wholsellers that buy the finished product in the USA? is there balance sheet public or are they private companies?

Anyone who can help on this it would be appriciated.

Does anyone know of anyone in Europe doing a PT for aquaculture?


Thanks

Andrew

crazzy
04/19/2007, 08:09 PM
There was, a while back discussions on what type of Plastic to cover the greenhouse with to allow proper penetration of wavelengths of sunlight required by Corals. What plastic did you decide to use?

raaden
04/20/2007, 06:18 AM
Balla,

If I can help let me know I think you have my personal email, but if not pm me and I'll get it to you.

The growers I know of are:
using a true polytunnel are Rick Rottet, Steven Pro, Phillip Root, Myself, hamburglar (for a little while) and treeman. Than Thein wrote a business plan but I am not sure he got much further than that.
There are quite a few using modified Greenhouse setups with true sunlight, but not true polytunnels. Those are redox, ORA (although they no longer have a parent company and the future is a bit unsure for them), Dr Mac and sons, Dick Perrin, Dr.s Foster and Smith, and some others I can't remember.
There are countless overseas places using lagoon based aquaculture but I am not sure they will give you any precedent because they are not far removed from wild growth and collection. Walt Smith comes to mind.

We can talk offline on the additional uses of corals by Pharma and university studies, I know of one person here at NC State that just finished a pretty indepth study on antibiotic production of a variety of corals. I also know of 2 biotech companies local here that are considering studies but nothing official.

Pricing and acceptance, that is the 64k question. I'm sure you saw the section in the BP about it and we talked a bit on the thread, but my experience was that most retailers were either going to want prices competitive or significantly lower for AC corals. I think that if you try to sell to a retailer you are going to have a tough time trying to get a premium. If you sell retail or through the internet you might get a small premium but I am going to stay away from those right now.
As far as who will buy wholesale from you in the USA: just about anyone will if your production is stable and your quality and price meet their needs.

raaden
04/20/2007, 06:52 AM
crazzy,
I should first say that I went kinda out on my own with my thoughts on coverings. I never got a direct response from Anthony regarding his thoughts on what I was suggesting but in reading his other posts on coverings he is not in favor of using what are called boutique coverings (coverings with special coatings to enhance the covering). He suggests using a straight clear covering with uv protection.

With that said I originally planned on using a boutique product called Klerks KL-380. That product was designed to block/relfect (read: not absorb/modify) any light with wavelength shorter than 380 nm. For conventional greenhouses this produces a strong cooling effect as about 20% of the heat in a greenhouse is from this light. For a GH in the south that is a huge benefit by itself but the biggest reason I was looking at this film is that, while I was doing my research I was looking at a large variety of research from Hawai'i on detrimental effects of UV spectrum on growth/death rates of corals. It seemed to me that this covering went along with the recommendation of the papers and would be well worth the added expense.

Unfortunately when I finally got to order my GH it was 'reskinning season' and this film was unavailable to small orders until atleast the end of May. When I placed my original order it was the fall and it was available but I had to cancel that order and decided to wait through the winter.

What I am going to end up using is one layer of Greentech UV protected clear for the outer layer and one layer of Greentech IR/AC for the inner. The outer layer is a standard clear like what Anthony recommends, and the outer is a standard clear with a coating to reduce Infrared infiltration both into and out of the GH. I am hoping that will help with the gas bill in the winter by reflecting back the Infrared heat. It also has an anticondensate coating which will help the water not collect on the plastic.

I am still in favor of the UV film and am planning on using it when I expand or reskin, as I have talked to a few conventional GH owners who have used it and are pretty happy with it and it makes a huge difference in the summer temps and surprisingly humidity levels.

crazzy
04/20/2007, 01:24 PM
Raaden, first let me thank you for your openness in your GH threads and not holding back "proprietary" thoughts, this goes a long way to opening up and enhancing this "addiction" When I first got into Salt Water in 1981 in Canada, the North American attitudes/thoughts were light years behind the European, but it has come a long way. Again Thanx for your sharing your endeavors.
On this subject which you have answered here: Plastic film, in a different thread, one person had brought up the utilization of glass instead of plastic as being substantially better. Any info/thoughts on this? Different types of glass? Glass films or other for blocking harmful (for corals) UV ?
When you talk about an inner and an outer layer, are you separating them like they do in Canada with a low pressure blower to separate them for insulation/lower heat bills?
All the best in your venture and good luck with it.

raaden
04/20/2007, 01:41 PM
crazzy,

Thanx for the kind words, I can't speak for everyone but IME most of the people I have spoken with on this type of venture are pretty open about their thoughts. Most of the idea mongering that I have seen is on the retail side, and I attribute that to the slim margins and the old school ideas that someone is going to come along and steal your ideas. The people in this sort of endeavor are more like scientists to me and in that sort of a community there is usually a pretty open door as far as sharing.

As for me I am committed to this venture and I feel that the best way for this to work long term is the open exchange of ideas and findings. I know that I could not be this far along if it weren't for all of the people that I have talked to and all of the ideas I have gotten from them. I also would like to see this hobby advance and I feel that the best way for that to happen is to get mass market momentum (try that one fast) behind it. Coral farming seems a logical first step in that direction.

As for the idea of glass; for me it was never a consideration. Glass would indeed block UV but its fragility, and cost made it far too difficult for serious consideration. If I were given a greenhouse covered in glass I would surely use it, but would probably not build one even if the costs were the same. I am not aware of a glass film that is available so I can't really comment on that.

The two layers of poly that I am using are just as you say. There is a small blower forcing air between the two layers and the insulation comes more from the air layer than it does from the poly itself.

Thanx again and I will need all the luck I can get

BallaBooyeaH
04/24/2007, 04:58 AM
pm sent raaden

raaden
05/01/2007, 09:12 AM
The plastic has been pulled and the outside is just about done. (http://reef-farm.net/pullingplastic.aspx) Sorry to be so long between updates. It has been quite a week (probably the most productive week yet) since last weekend when we started the plastic. There has been alot of progress on the stucture and when you look at it in person it looks like an operational greenhouse... if only that were the case :p.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0044.JPG
This past week I really started to put in some serious time (overtime as the case may be) on the greenhouse as I am finally getting to the point where I can have a couple of projects working at the same time. We got the plastic completed, hung the shutters on the endwall where the evap cooler will go, hung the door, wired up the breaker boxes for the electricity, started running the water mains into the GH and tested the inflation of the poly layers. It was some seriously heavy work but it felt so good making progress on it.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0046.JPG
There is still so much to do, and it seems (just like everyone else doing this sort of project) that for everything I get done some sort of problem creeps up somewhere else. The issues I am working on this week are:
The blower that I was sent to inflate the GH seems a bit overpowered, and is putting some serious pressure into the gap between the layers of plastic. It almost seems as if the seal around the edges of the plastic is too tight...

The fiberglass vats may not be an option. The original builder of the vats is unavailable and a couple of fallback options will probably not work out either so I am entertaining other ideas for making the vats. I am starting a new thread to try to get ideas and feedback on what I can do here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1111373) . I have a few ideas but if anyone has any others please check this thread out and let me know what you think.

I also am a little concerned with the overall weight of the facility. This is something that I never really looked into but at full capacity the overall weight of the facility will be in the neighborhood of 100 tons with much of it raised on stands without footers. It is built on some of the finest and toughest clay I have seen, but with no footings and being at the top of a hill I am a little worried that the ground will shift a bit. Not a whole lot I can do about it now, but it is something that I will keep an eye on.

Overall this past week has been great, although ridiuculously busy, and things should be moving quickly from here on in. The plan for the upcoming week is to further seal up the edges around the equipment and start working on getting the rest of the equipment installed and operational. I also want to solidify my plans for building (or buying) the vats and if I need to build them I want to get started on them pretty soon, hopefully by the beginning of next week.

jaws_too
05/01/2007, 08:30 PM
Thats nice! very cool

hatfielj
05/01/2007, 09:16 PM
Looks awesome! I can't wait to see it completed. IMO I wouldn't worry about the weight of the facility at all. 100 tons is heavy, but its not heavy enough to move the earth! I'm 100% sure you'll be fine and run into no problems because of weight...knock on wood:)

RedSonja
05/02/2007, 08:38 AM
Looking good! It is so exciting to see it coming along!

No other ideas yet on what to do about vats. :( Hopefully someone will come up with an idea that works and won't break the budget. You and Greg should sit down and just brainstorm it, between the two of you I bet you can figure something out. :) I'm not the engineer of the operation, I'll leave that to y'all. :D

-Sonja

Whaledriver
05/02/2007, 03:44 PM
Awesome!
I am living a dream job vicariously through your project.

raaden
05/03/2007, 06:51 AM
Well this week has been a scorcher so far and the plastic certainly has held up under almost 90 degree weather (>130 in the GH with no fans running). Today we have a good chance of getting some rain so I can see how the ground holds up with a bunch of water dumped on it.

I also ended up getting a different blower (about 1/4th the size of the one they sent me) and it is even a bit stronger than what I need. I have the inlet almost completely shut and it is keeping up like a champ. I am definitely going to have to spend a weekend tightening the plastic as the air pocket in a few spots is almost 2.5 ft thick. Thats some good insulation :P.

Sonja,
I am not sure i have Gregs email... If you get a chance send it to me. I would love to hash out some ideas.

WhaleDriver,
Fantastic, now I get a chance to crush two peoples dreams... :/

raaden
05/10/2007, 07:00 AM
Another week of good progress (http://reef-farm.net/outside.aspx) and the outside construction is finished. Construction tasks completed this week include: mounting the motors to the shutters, constructing and mounting the exhaust fans, mounting the breaker box and wiring it up, starting the inside wiring, planning out the inside electrical runs, inflating the greenhouse, and sealing up the base of the Greenhouse. All in all a very good week.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0067.jpg http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0060.jpg
For the coming week I want to get the inside wiring a bit further, start on the evap cooler, get a solid plan for the vat construction, and start working on the cutting benches. If I can get all that done by the middle of next week I should be well on my way to getting livestock in the GH by the end of the month.
http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0054.jpg http://reef-farm.net/images/IMG_0058.jpg

BallaBooyeaH
05/10/2007, 08:13 AM
Radden - You are flying. keep it up.

For the Vat's Look what I have done for holdsing vat for my rock.

I got IBC containers at €70 each and chopped off the top - can be larger than I did but I need to fit them under the stand i have.

Where you cut them it is sharp as I have learnt with many cuts to my arms from reaching in. So I just placed 1/2" end caps on them to stop cut me all the time.

Sump for the invert system - currently full of rock
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0016-1.jpg

Invert system with the holding IBC tank below holding the cured rock.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0006.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0007.jpg

redox
05/10/2007, 09:24 AM
unfortunatly those galvenized frames are going to rust real bad

crazzy
05/10/2007, 10:08 AM
I posted this on your other thread re:
"Why not try to find those (48"X48"X48") stacking heavy duty food usable square bins. Some reefers have used them in the large reef tank section as large sumps. New, they are about $300.oo for 400 gallon capacity. Easy to drill etc. Indestructable!"
Pics won't copy to here but if you go to "dacocorp.com" you will see all types which are Fork Liftable, stackable and in the price range I believe you are looking for. Just find a local supplier (I am sure Dyson buys them by the thousands for their chicken operations)

BallaBooyeaH
05/10/2007, 10:24 AM
Why not try to give them a coat of Hammerite or other coating you have in the USA that protects the metal ???

I plan on getting 3 years out of the containers without any coverings? Will have to wait and see...

RedSonja
05/10/2007, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the update raaden, wow, it's a greenhouse for real now! :D

Btw the RARE meeting is this Saturday instead of Monday, 3pm at Aquacade and I'm still doing the demonstration.

-Sonja

GreshamH
05/10/2007, 11:16 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9746544#post9746544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
Nammy and I were talking about this, and my understanding is that you can import certified aquacultured corals even if they are cites listed/covered without a permit or levies. I would look into that and if you find that it is true let me know and I will get you what you need.

In the USA, AC or wild, they all fall under CITES protection and require permits. No stony coral (CITES listed and coverred) can be imported with out a permit into the USA. US F & W S requires the permit to right off your shipment and allow it entrance to the US.

Being there is no reconized "certification" of AC corals by the USA or CITES, that is a moot point :)

redox
05/10/2007, 03:54 PM
hey Raaden looks like you got all the tools in the shop laying out on the floor:eek2: was the frame staight or does that guy need lessons?

Serioussnaps
05/11/2007, 12:04 PM
Raaden....where exactly are you doing this? Near RTP? just curious....nice week by the way

crazzy
05/12/2007, 11:31 AM
FYI Referencing the above regarding CITES. The following is a direct quote from "SPC Aquaculture Portal" for Fiji and the South Pacific.

"While scleractinian corals are CITES listed and require permits etc., aquacultured corals qualify as 'captive bred' and are exempting from CITES regulations, but only if they are certified as grown from second generation cultured stock. "
Some things, as always, may not be black and white. Jus thought you might check it out if it is at all relevant! Congratulations on your progress

crazzy
05/13/2007, 12:25 PM
Attached is a picture of a type of forkliftable Tank I was referring to. Easy to cut, drill add piping, valves etc al in the budget range you are looking for. Your time is more valuable doing the nyriad of other things you need to do rather than building a tank exchanging four quarters for a Dollar. again all the Best.

BallaBooyeaH
05/14/2007, 01:25 AM
Raaden,

Quick question which I am assuming you may know or other in this thread may.

I want to map in the USA who is doing aquaculture and where in the USA they are based?
What type of faciliuty they have and what type of turnover? I.e. I know that Dick Perrin is not in a PT but a building of some type with a certain roof.

This is for 2 reasons. Firstly to ensure me that my lag and latitude will work here in ireland for required sunlight.
Also to guage the output of stock comming for aquaculture facilities.

Thanks and WOW you are getting this thing moving fast.

Whaledriver
05/21/2007, 11:16 AM
Have you looked into making your vats/tanks out of glass?
Calfo found a source for cheap glass and made tanks out of them for his greenhouse. See if there is a glass factory in the area that might have cheap glass.

raaden
05/21/2007, 11:39 AM
Sorry so long since updates, I have been so busy I haven't even had time to get any pics.

Where I am quickly is:
*The fans are in and working on the thermostat
*the evap cooler has been started and will be done this week
*Got some more gravel to clean up the edges of the outside so it will look a bit nicer
*Built 3 of the 4 vats (8'x6'x27") out of lumber and OSB.
*Have two of them in the GH and waiting to put the epoxy liner in
*Making way on the electrical, and have power in the GH as well as a few temporary boxes for equipment, and a few lights mounted

I will run through the rest in the next post

P.s. redox,
I wish I could remember that framers number so I could give him a piece of my mind, a few of the shutters don't completely close... just kidding it is not your fault at all. I decided to wrap the plastic around the opening to better seal the ends and the thickness of the plastic is causing the bottom lip of the shutters to rub. Pretty easy fix just haven't gotten to it yet.

raaden
05/21/2007, 11:52 AM
thanx everyone for all of the suggestions. They were all pretty good and helped me get some ideas that I am going to work with. :)

I am going to use a wood framed vat with a liquid applied liner inside it. I am going to try a couple of different products to see how they perform and will report back. One is an epoxy and the other is a plastic rubber compound similar when dry to the rubbermaid material used for their tubs. I looked at tons of different coatings and narrowed the list down to two.

I decided early on I wasn't going to mess with glass at all. too much potential for disaster, and I am pretty sure that even if a tree were to fall on the vats I have built they would still be standing.

Balla, your system is looking good, I can't wait to see what you can do for the local market there. send me an email with what you are looking for and I will try to get you a list.

I can say that I have no first hand knowledge, only what I have read, but what I have found is along the same lines as what crazzy posted although Gresham may have a point in that the US can further prohibit using Cites as well.

The aquaculture certification info is a bit murky, and while I was pretty sure that even Cites bodies recognized it I can't say for sure. If it is not in place now I would certainly expect there to be some sort of recognition for it in the near future.

Back to work... I will try to get some pics up this weekend, but it is starting to look really nice out there. :D)))

MoCha920
05/22/2007, 04:21 PM
<font color="99CCFF">
good luck
<img src="http://www.goldencards.com/database/cards/friendship/hello/01.gif">

BallaBooyeaH
05/25/2007, 09:05 AM
Raaden,



Few questions.



I have been looking around Ireland and found this flower grower that has been using PT for over 20 years.

Firstly he says that the double skinning has no need – Not sure how to take this. He also says that I would be better off with automated side curtains than the louvers with powered fans for cooling the PT down.


Also he recommends to heat the water rather than heat the room – This kinda makes sense to me as I can use heat exchangers powered by oil burners or wood pellette boilers and the heat in the water will heat the room. He say you pay to much to heat the room just to heat the water - simmiliar for him but he heats the soil via ducting of pipes under the soil - he only needs 10 degrees for the soil

Anyway. Another thought after seeing his operation and has got me thinking. Yourself Steve and others seem to go for a PT that is single arched. If you were to go double arched than hey a lot more room to grow with ??? Is the environmental the reason for going smaller – heating cooling etc….

If to go big from the start then more stock – more turnaround….


What do you think.

Here are some pictures of his setup

old single one - 20 year old plastic been on for 10 years
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0029-1.jpg

DOuble tunnel as I was talking about - Look at the room inside this baby.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0031-1.jpg

Lourves that he uses in his tunnels - says they are old - do the job but chew electricity.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b239/ballabooyeah/DSCF0033.jpg

Andrew

raaden
05/25/2007, 10:24 AM
Andrew,

Those are really good questions, and I can give you my take on them but understand my decisions were based on my climate and setup which is very different from yours YMMV!!! I will give them a shot and let me know what you think.

Double skinning does have a purpose... insulation. How much of a total affect it has is a can of worms however. I have seen very different numbers on the insulation factor of different types of covering from PC panels, single layer, double layer, and what I am using which is single layer with boutique coating. obviously the makers of the type of covering are going to give you different info, and what the 'real numbers' are; I am honestly not sure. Lets take that out of the equation and think about the other things that could make a difference. The biggest ones I can think of are:
Holes. If you get a hole in a single layer covering in the middle of winter that could be catastropic
Weather. In the case of a storm the second air filled layer gives some amout of buffer from the wind. I can tell you first hand that when I put on and inflated the second layer I saw a huge difference in how the plastic handled wind. With one layer it flapped, made noise, and seemed like it was pulling on the fasteners. Once the second layer was finished I had about the same amount of wind (~25-30 mph) and saw no real affect the wind had on the covering at all, No Flapping, very little noise and with my hand on the attachment points I could hardly feel it pull at all.
Covering Types: Most of the boutique coverings need an outside layer to prevent UV from damaging the coatings they use. So if you are going to look at these types of covering you will need to double skin the frame.

As far as the choice of ventilation/HVAC this is a much murkier topic, and will be very dependent on the climate anomalies. For my climate type louvres with an Evap Cooler was by far the best choice. A sidewall curtain can't really be used with an evap cooler (I found this out the hard way, as I ordered it this way and had to change during shipment...). A general rule for this might be that if you are going to skip any cooling than side curtains are a great idea vs the louvres. In either case you are going to need to use High powered exhaust fans to move the air through the building unless your temps don't get above 75-80, as well as circulating fans to move the air in the building.

Heating the water vs heating the air is a great topic to get into and I would love to see this worked out against a broad set of conditions. I can't say I know anything but in the case of soil it might make sense to heat it vs the environment, but I looked into it a bit when I was planning my setup, but couldn't get my head around how much of difference either setup would make. With that I decided that the "tried and tested" method was what I wanted to do. I came up with some numbers that made it seem like it would be better financially to heat the water by a little bit, but I was afraid of what sort of unknowns might cause problems, and one of the things (simplified for demonstration) that I came up with was that I would need to heat and cool each tank independently which would get complicated. What if one tank gets hot and needs to be cooled. I would need to let cool air in to cool it off or invest in chillers for each tank. Then if one is hot and another is cold I am going to start fighting one tank against another as far as the overall atmosphere goes. If I cool the atmosphere I can maintain all of the tanks together for the most part. Another consideration is the amount of evap and condensation that will happen in the winter. I am guessing that evaporation in the winter will go up by a factor of 10 if you decide to heat the water, and then all the water that evaporates from the vats will end up on the outer walls of the structure running down the sides as well as contributing to the rusting of the structure.

The only reason for going single arched is cost and space. The cost of the structure and the lack of space at my current site. When/If I expand I am going to look into a triple arched single space greenhouse. Absolutely the more space the better not only for the amount of grow space but also conditions are MUCH easier to maintain in a large space. Most of the initial costs go up linearly, but maintenance (heating/cooling/land) go up much less than linearly as you consider a bigger and bigger space. The biggest reason for me was that I can run a single GH myself (w/ wifes help :) ) without hiring anyone. If I expand I would need to hire help (huge expense relatively) and want to know for sure that I can support the costs before I go there.

If you can 'afford' to go big then I would definitely say do it, understand that it is quite a bit of money. When I was looking for investors I planned out the big house and the equipment and in the first year I was going to spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $250,000 (yes 1/4th million) to make it through construction and growout. I could have raised it but...

Hope that gives you some info, and like I said at the beginning this really only applies to my setup in my climate and things could be very different for a different type of setup in a different climate. I am sure you will get it right... You are doing your homework and that is the most important thing :D

raaden
06/08/2007, 09:30 PM
While I was working on the next couple of updates I realized that I forgot to post the last set. I made the webpage for them (http://reef-farm.net/startinside.aspx) but never updated the thread (that is what putting in a 9-5 and then putting in another 4+hrs of construction will do to you). I thought I should go ahead and take care of that before the rest.

After the completion of the structural stuff it was time to start working on getting the inside ready for prodution. I spent the next two weeks (early to mid May) wiring up the main equipment. It was ridiculously hot even back then with ambient temps in the 70's the greenhouse was getting to be well over 90 and just dead air. That is miserable to work in. It took about a week to get the mains wired up and the plumbing started. After that the fans were next. Once they were done it was not bad in the GH except for the fact that it was still blowing hot air around but atleast it was bearable.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside17.jpg
After that I installed the motors on the intake shutters but just taped them open because I needed to get the electricity to the back wall before they could be put on thermostats. That was going to take a while, and I planned on getting them done while I did the evap cooler. For now it works and they don't really need to shut... do they?
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside14.jpg


I can't steal my thunder from the latest updates just yet so I will leave it at that but am going to use this weekend to get caught up on all the things that have been done... and there have been alot.

raaden
06/10/2007, 09:23 PM
Even though there have been no updates for the last few weeks things have been very busy at the Reef Farm. Two pretty big tasks are out of the way and there is only one more thing to do before the tanks get filled late next week. The picture below shows the gh as it stands now.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside38.jpg

Apologies for the lack of updates again, but building the vats (http://reef-farm.net/buildingvats.aspx), and constructing the evap cooler (http://reef-farm.net/evapconstruct.aspx) was a bigger task than anticipated. Especially the vats. It took three ideas to come up with a winner, but if the calculations are correct these should be able to withstand holding ~4tons for atleast 3-5 years if not much longer. They are basically built like a super reinforced version of the floor in your house. The reinforcing should prevent any spreading issues and the way the corners are tied in they should not be able to separate even when full to the very top.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside18.jpg

The final size is 8x6x2.25 and the bracing is 2x4's 12" on center. The inner walls are made of OSB and all weather screws were used to hold everything together. The best part is that even when the most expensive of the liners is used they will still come in just under the budget price.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside19.jpg

The other big thing that had to get done was that the evap cooler had become a complete necessity. So much so that lining the vats was moved to the background because at the time ambient temps were reaching the mid 80's and temps in the gh were breaking 110. That is a tough place to work and for a week or two at the end of building the vats I had to wait until the sun went down to get out there and work.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside22.jpg

That wasn't even the worst of it either... the weather was calling for temps to steadily rise over the next week or so and should reach the high 90's within a week. There was no way I could see myself being able to work if it got much hotter in there. In order to get the evap cooler done the electrical had to be finished and the plumbing (which hadn't even been started yet) had to be done as well. It was going to be quite a next 10 days, and to top it off I lost all my helpers. The neighbor was not going to be available for next few months, and the wife and kid were going to be on vacation (without me :( ) for the week. On top of that I had to make some modifications to the setup of the cooler to make it work in the opening I had. It was a bit oversized for the size of the house, but I need all of the cooling I can get.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside30.jpg

After planning out all of the modifications I finally got construction done Tuesday of last week and man am I glad I did. That thing works great, We had 2 straight days of just under 100 outside and the temps in the gh were pretty stable at just over 85, and it feels even better inside than that with the cool moist air circulating. Unforunately the system runs pretty much nonstop all day and draws some serious power ~25A while all of it is going.
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside39.jpg

This week I am going to need to level all of the tanks and get them raised up on the blocks so that this weekend I can get the liners on and get some water in during the week after. Once I get some water in and get a chance to check for leaks if everything goes well I will get some livestock the week after and start acclimation. I can't wait :D

BallaBooyeaH
06/11/2007, 03:17 AM
Raden - Wow you are flying.

What type of liners are you planning to use?

I have the firestone 1mm rubber lining - Worls great but I came into problems when it came to drilling in them to put plumbing in them.
Problem was when I drilled and made a hole in the liner - if it is not dead flat - leaks. I ended up using tunze for flow and up and over the edge for feeding the skimmer and closed loop. If I was to do it again then I would be making sure that the holes are away from the edge so where the liner has a flap due to climbing a wall - this is clear of where the hole is to be drilled.

hope that helps a bit.

Andrew

raaden
06/11/2007, 08:13 AM
I will be using a liquid epoxy liner for one tank and a modified plastic rubber liner for the other one. Then whichever works the best will be used for the remaining two. I decided early on to stay away from the EPDM liners for a variety of reasons. Mostly because of the need to put bulkheads in and the amount of activity that will happen in them causing leaks very similar to what you are describing. When I was researching different liner options all of the pond people I talked to suggested that for what I wanted to do rubbers liners would be a bad choice.

The three reasons that kept coming up was that in salt water the rubber liners will emulsify and eventually (< 3 years) breakdown to the point of leaking. The others were that mounting racks that have to get taken in and out often would eventually tear the liner, and sealing bulkheads is more of an art than I was willing to spend time learning. Apparently the best way is to use a hot iron and somehow melt the liner around whatever you want to seal.

It sounds like from your experience they were correct. My biggest issues with the liners I will be trying is whether I will get the coverage amount that has been described, and whether they will bond with the glue in the OSB. If both of those work that is another huge hurdle overcome.

RedSonja
06/11/2007, 08:19 AM
Hey Raaden,

Looking good! You've certainly been busy! Busy here too, mostly good ways. I need to run now and get some new RBTA broodstock but wanted to say thanks for the update and pix and say we're still happy to help ya whenever we can.

-Sonja

raaden
06/11/2007, 08:55 AM
Sonja, if you aren't doing anything on Saturday and want to come over to help out with lining the vats, you are more than welcome to. I am going to try to get started earlyish as they need some time to cure before evening falls and dewpoint is hit. If you are going to make it PM or email me and I will give you the details. The next thing I will definitely need some help on is mounting the heater. That won't be for a few weeks, but it is a bohemoth and is easily a 2-3 person lift.

All,

I also forgot to put in my earlier posts that I spent the better part of another week prepping for and dealing with the first tropical storm of the season. The Carolinas got hit with the first (and hopefully the last ;) ) tropical storm this season to come through. Even though it was supposed to bring only marginal winds and heavy downpours I was not going to get caught this early. I made sure I did everything I could to seal up the gh and get the current project into a state where even if the worst happend it would still be okay. At that time I had just finished up with the vats and was working on the plumbing and electrical, and had wires laying everywhere in the GH and I kept seeing visions of of live wires being ripped from their mounts and laying in pools of water.

Fortunately the storm was pretty weak by the time it reached us and the winds were not much more than a bad thunderstorm with the max at about 20-25. The structure did tremendously and hardly even flinched at it. The biggest issue was that there was significant water coming in through the bottoms of the shutters, but nothing too bad.

slumpysix
06/11/2007, 04:41 PM
raaden,
never posted here but have been following along from the start. Just have to say you are doing a fantasic job all around. I know how it can be working in the sweltering heat and it's not fun. Everything looks top notch and can't wait to see some water in those babies...
take it easy
Jeff

raaden
06/12/2007, 06:15 AM
Jeff,

Good to have you along, and thanx for the great words. As far as the water goes... You and me both. I can honestly say that I will be completely stoked if I can get water in them next week and be able to order some rock and sand towards the end of that week.

Also since you are a carpenter can you give some feedback on what you think of the vats. Do you think the way they are designed they will be able to stand up to the load that will be on them. I believe they will be more than strong enough based on the load ratings that framers use for houses, but it is always good to get another opinion.

Serioussnaps
06/12/2007, 11:48 AM
Still tagging along...PM me whenver you need a helping hand! Im free most mornings and weekends.

Serioussnaps
06/12/2007, 11:48 AM
Still tagging along...PM me whenver you need a helping hand! Im free most mornings and weekends.

slumpysix
06/12/2007, 03:49 PM
The lap joints on the top are the most critical as the bottom plate attached to the base is. Using screws is a tighter bond and you certainly should not have any probs. You could always opt to use a sheathing on the outside of the vat to replace the diagonal brace if you wanted to. other than that just make sure all your screw heads are set below the surface...watch out for splinters!..
cya

Whaledriver
06/12/2007, 04:51 PM
Construction adhesive wouldn't hurt? I second the sheathing on the outside.

RedSonja
06/13/2007, 12:38 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10119574#post10119574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
Sonja, if you aren't doing anything on Saturday and want to come over to help out with lining the vats, you are more than welcome to. I am going to try to get started earlyish as they need some time to cure before evening falls and dewpoint is hit. If you are going to make it PM or email me and I will give you the details. The next thing I will definitely need some help on is mounting the heater. That won't be for a few weeks, but it is a bohemoth and is easily a 2-3 person lift.



This Saturday would probably not work as Greg gets home from London late Friday night and I'm sure he'll be zombified for a couple days from jet lag. Hopefully Sunday evening my boys will be here, for the rest of the summer, so we can bring them over for additional slave labor. :D

-Sonja

mr.wilson
06/15/2007, 12:14 AM
On the subject of coatings, I've made a number of plywood tanks and vats over the years using two step epoxy paint as well as one step modified epoxy paint.

The one step modified epoxy was okay, but it required more coats than a true two step epoxy. Benjamin Moore Chex-Wear was the one I used.

Pratt & Lambert makes a good two step epoxy paint, available in many colours. Just remember, once it's mixed, you have to use it all in about 8 hours. The last few times I've used epoxies, they've been from an industrial supply house that services boat and auto repair shops. I don't know the manufacturer, as they mix it in the store in a generic can.

Even though epoxies are waterproof, the vat will take-on moisture. I had problems with dry rot when I put a few vats into storage for a few months. Just like a wood boat, they need to stay wet.

Epoxy is a little brittle, so you need to seal the seams with silicone after it's painted. Some people use fiberglass in the corners, but I find this to be too labour intensive and messy with no measurable benefit.

I did some plumbing and filtration work on a 50,000 gallon freshwater tank, where they hired a professional to line it with a rubberized compound. They had significant leaks, and poor adhesion, but this was a cement application, where humidity and PH come into play.

Now would be a good time to test your fan and louvers, as the epoxy will burn your eyes and lungs. I assume you picked up some laquer thinner for clean up and thinning the first coat.

kaptken
06/21/2007, 05:25 PM
one liner i have considered, but not tried, is the fiberglass reinforced plastic shower liner (FRP) they sell at HD or lowes in 4 x 8 sheets. about 1/8 inch thick with a smooth pebbled white finish. finish vat framing, line with 3/4 ply then glue liner to inside. then i believe you could use a thickened fiberglass putty mix to fill and bond the seams like a fillet weld, and overlay the wet putty fillet with 6 inch fiberglass tape and paint in with more polyester boat resin. pretty much like making a stitch and glue boat. you could check with the company to make sure polyester resin bonds well to it. If so, it should work.

http://www.kemlite.com/structoglas/str_products.cfm

i would probably order some smooth finish sheets for better gasket sealing of pipe penetrations. the wood frame and ply take the water load, so reinforce the corners with angle iron plates. the liner just makes the durable water seal. I would also first paint the entire inside plywood surface with boat yard polyester resin, and let cure before applying the liner. extra strenght and moisture barrier to prevent rot.

has anyone tried this FRP shower liner?

dleggett
06/21/2007, 05:31 PM
If I read the earlier post correctly, you plan to use Tunze pumps for general circulation in each vat. Is that still the plan?
How do you plan to configure them?

slumpysix
06/21/2007, 06:14 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10187973#post10187973 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaptken
has anyone tried this FRP shower liner?

Frp is widely used in resturant kitchens and such. It's easily maintained. I would be leary about the strength of the joints. Where it's a great and durable product, it has a gloss finish that would be hard to seal for long term water support. You can seal it with silicone yes, but silicone can be removed from it without much effort. Epoxy could be used but I have never seen it used with it. I have installed hundreds of sheets of it and it has it's good points and bad ones.


------------------------------------------------------
On a side note....

Any updates sir raaden?
lookin forward to seeing things rollin' along..

raaden
06/22/2007, 12:38 PM
I thought I should post a quick set of updates heading into the weekend. The site hasn't been updated as I want to wait until I have finished the first four vats before I do any analysis on what I have, but thought you all might like to know how things are coming.

Last weekend I coated the first two vats with two different products. Honestly I had high hopes for both of them and thought either should work great, based on talking with the product reps. While niether was a complete disappointment I will be trying some new products for the second two. One of the products I tried was a special epoxy that is marketed for fish housing and seems to have a wide assortment of both positive and negative reviews. The second choice was completely off the board and was something that I wanted to try based on research I did on polymers and high tech coatings. It was inexpensive enough that it was worth a shot. I also wanted to try something that was not an epoxy just in case there turned out to be a reason that I shouldn't use epoxies.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_01.jpg
First I started off with a few test and some application of both products to get the feel of them and also get an idea of the strength and corner applications. The aqua blue colored one is the non epoxy polymer, and the dark blue and white is the epoxy.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_04.jpg
This is a picture of the corner test. The epoxy (white) is using a fiberglass tape, and the polymer is using a special (read: expensive) tape that they recommend.

After each of them cured for a couple of days I cut the board in half and tested the bond and strength of each of the corners. The epoxy bonded to the OSB very well and the corner was very strong. The polymer, which doesn't harden like the epoxy, was still very strong and the tape provided good flex strength even though it was easily bent inward. Feeling fairly confident in each of the products I decided to go ahead and line 1 tank each with them.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_14.jpg
Recommendations from the product guys said for the epoxy tanks you have to bed the corners with epoxy soaked fiberglass, and then coat the rest of the tank. I used a fiberglass cloth (tight weave) and cut strips to length allowing enough for the corners to extend to the edges of the tank, figuring they may add a little strength and even if not they wont hurt. This was my first mistake, the fraying edges made a huge mess of the epoxy with strings coming off everywhere. It ended up working just fine but I ended up with a stringy mess after all the strips were coated. For a second run I will use precut tape with selvaged edges to try to eliminate that.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_13.jpg
While the epoxy was curing I started on the polymer vat. The instructions on that were quite different as they suggested putting down a primer coat first, then bedding in the corners with their "magical tape" :eek1: this way the tape would have something to grab onto and give double protection for flexing in the corners. Made sense to me so that was the route I took. Unlike fiberglass this tape was sticky so it was a single shot to get it in place as there was no sliding it or peeling it off and resticking it.

That one although it took a bit longer went very well and the coating dried to a tack in about 30 minutes. Since I wasn't sure if the epoxy in the corners had cured enough to coat the rest I decided to put a second coat of the polymer on to see what the thickness would be, and get an idea of whether it would go on thicker with a base coat. It did go on a bit thicker but not very much and after that coat dried it still looked like I would have to do quite a few coats to get the dime sized thickness the rep suggested. Little did I know it would take about 9 coats and 5 gals to get that amount of thickness. I spent most of this week adding coats and just yesterday decided that I think it is thick enough to let cure and use as is.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_42.jpg
This is a picture from Tuesday with about 6 coats on it.

After adding a second coat to the polymer tank I felt confident in the epoxy and decided to go ahead and work on finishing that tank. The rep said to use a squeegee and spread the epoxy out then roll it with a nap roller to a thin coating. I had help later in the day and my helper was pretty sure that troweling it was a good idea and we decided to give it a go on the floor. Bad Idea, it went on pretty thick and the working time was so short going back over it with a roller didn't do a thing except texture it. For one side we tried out using just a roller and that seemed to work better and spread the epoxy a little thinner so that was the choice for the rest of the walls.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_20.jpg
After rolling all of the walls the epoxy tank started looking really good. It got a glassy sheen to it and I started dreaming of getting water in there by the middle of the week. We ended the day feeling like things were pretty good, just needed a few more coats on the polymer tank and that water was not far off.

raaden
06/22/2007, 12:55 PM
The next day I went out to admire my creations and this is when it went all pear shaped. The polymer was only slightly more cured than the day before and was still very tacky (with only three coats on), and the epoxy vat had about a gazillion (yes that is the technical term :P ) little holes or voids where you could see the OSB through the epoxy. Errrr... no water this week.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_26.jpg
I had about a pint of epoxy left and was really hoping I had enough to fill in all of the little holes. Desparately keeping the hope that I could get some water in the vats this week. Unfortunately the more I looked around to find holes the more I found and didn't have nearly enough to finish the job. Realizing that it wasn't going to happen I set off to put a couple more coats on the polymer vat and mark off all of the holes. Once I was done marking the holes I realized that I would be better of recoating the entire vat and did some research on other products.

The first epoxy I used is good stuff, don't get me wrong I really like the bond to the OSB, and it hardened nice, but I believe it cures to quickly to allow it to seep into imperfections in the wood. It is intended for sealing ponds and for that I bet it does a great job. Little holes like I found would not be a big deal at all for a pond where miniscule leaks are almost expected. Unfortunately for what I need to do it just isn't going to cut it. Besides the coverage that was described is probably based on the actual content and not on application, because I used about 160% of the product that should have been needed and still ended up with voids.

I also equally like the polymer but in talking with the product rep it will not harden much more than a fruit rollup, and I am very worried about abrasion from rocks or the eggcrate tearing a hole in it. Not to mention that almost a week later (although I have been adding more coats) in mid 90's temps it still is pretty tacky and I have no idea how long it will take to fully cure.

I have a couple more products coming this week and will recoat the epoxy vat this weekend. I think I am going to keep the polymer vat and use it as is once it cures.
BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!!

mr.wilson
06/22/2007, 06:11 PM
I think your problem will lie in the rough, porous nature of the OSB. The money you save by avoiding plywood may be spent two fold in extra coats of paint to compensate.

Good one side plywood will accept the paint much better, with fewer coats. A friend of mine uses regular (rough) plywood, and fills the holes and imperfections with fiberglass resin. Alternatively, you could use wood filler. Elmer's wood filler is somewhat water-proof and bonds well.

I still recommend a bead of silicone in the corners rather than fiberglass, as the corners will flex and crack in time.

One of the aspects of these paints you won't be able to test is the fact that they get chalky in time. This is the most popular brand here in Canada. http://www.westsystem.com/

If you really want to save money and use something that will fill the voids in your OSB, you should consider Benjamin Moor Chex wear (modified, one step epoxy). It will go farther and cost less if you use their marine primer first. After that it only takes two coats to get a "dime thick" finish.

Thanks for sharing your costly research.

redox
06/22/2007, 07:04 PM
Hey Brian I fear humidity will not be your friend . I almost went that same route as you are taking .I built a form out of plywood and applied a coating of a product made by the Inman corp and what it is is paint on rubber. I never put water in the vat but it really looked like it would have worked. The main thing with the rubber was if the smell is gone it was cured. That might be simmilar to what you are doing. As you know I scrapped that and went with fiberglass with white gelcoat. Have you heard about this paint on rubber I am refering to?It comes in many colors and is like I said paint on rubber @ about 50$ a gallon. Its not too late to have these made out of fiberglass as boat builders are a dime a dozen here and work has slowed for some . If you really want to get some water in there fast they have 1000 gallon round vats made out of poly for sale at the tractor farm supply there in Smithfield by 95. I think they are less than 300 bucks each. They are used for cattle waterers and are 8' diameter:D

kmacartney
06/22/2007, 07:46 PM
Not to be a big thread distraction, I was wondering if you could explain how the evaporative cooler works in more detail. Or you can point me to some more info. They are quite interesting.

BTW this is an awesome thread!

mr.wilson
06/22/2007, 08:13 PM
On the subject of rubber coatings. I've used elastomeric (rubberized) paint on concrete vats. The benefit of parged concrete is it's already water-proof, so the paint is just there as a protective layer.

It bonds well, and slowly wears off, instead of chipping off, making it easier to re-coat. It's not as durable as epoxies and gel coats. If it leaks, the wood will be FUBAR before you get a chance to re-coat it. On the plus side, it's cheap. Benjamin Moore has one such paint sold as pool paint.

englishreefer
06/22/2007, 10:42 PM
on the point about getting an even surface to work on. I remember a thread in which the guy used that car body repair stuff over the ply frame. Looked like a pretty good surface to work on and imagine can be used pretty cheap.

Philip Root
06/23/2007, 10:45 AM
how much is the polymer?

Here are two products to look into if you have not

http://www.rustoleum.com/product.asp?frm_product_id=124&SBL=2



http://www.herculiner.com/

I have used this before liked it. And I can pickit up localy. Even list sumps and fish tanks in the 101 uses. You can also call a truck bed liner company that would spray a lining in the tank. It was about 200 bucks when I called them for a 4x8x3

Philip

Whaledriver
06/28/2007, 09:15 AM
Cant you just put you tanks on a trailer an take them to a fiberglass guy. I would think you would get a deal if they could just spray the fiberglass/fiber while its on your trailer?

kmacartney
06/28/2007, 12:30 PM
Ok, dummy question. Do you just run FW through the vap cooler?

raaden
06/28/2007, 02:19 PM
No real updates yet... ;) but I do have some good things working. Just wanted to add some replies to all of the posts that have been coming in, and there have been quite a few that I haven't gotten to. Thanx everyone for all the great responses and ideas.

Here we go.

I did use subfloor adhesive (and quite a bit of it) on the side and bottom layers of OSB to the 2x4's, and if anyone has tried to rip up a subfloor in a house, even a rotten one, they can tell you how tough that stuff is. I think I am going to skip sheathing but I may put another diagonal 1x4 brace to overlap the diagonal.

I am going to skip updates on the coating for now, but I think I have found the solution. I will get more into it once I have water in the tanks and can see if they are "seaworthy". The polymer tank is still tacky and I am now pretty sure it will never "dry". It is going to get filled as is and we will see what happens.

After the recommendation I looked into FRP, but it would end up about the same as using epoxy, and the UV issues are much worse with plastic than with epoxy. At the very beginning I looked into using shower stalls as well but again having to build a full frame for them brings the cost to the same level and then I would be stuck using a size that I can't have any say in.

As far as circulation goes I am planning on using all air lifts if I can get away with it. I believe it is Steven that is using tunze streams. I will probably start with some powerheads that I have laying around until I get enough vats online to make the blower worth it. Long term though I should be using two large recirc blowers to power air lifts for all of the tanks.

The OSB I am using has both a slick side and a rough or coarse side. It actually works out perfect for my application because I am using the slick side for the outside and the coarse for the inside. The paint sticks much better to the slick side and the epoxy I am using requires about a 4-5 mil roughness to it for the epoxy to stick. The coarse side is more like 6-8 mil but that just means it will set in a little better. I also means I am using
a little bit more product but that is not a big deal just a little more expensive for the finished product.

I am leaving the imperfections to be filled in with the epoxy, as I have not had good luck with wood filler staying in place in other things I have used it for. Once again this just uses a small bit more epoxy.

I looked very hard at the West Sytems products as we have a West Marine store in Raleigh, and in talking with the owner we came to the conclusion that this was not the right product for what I needed to do. Firstly the fumes are outrageous smelling and carcinogenic, not to mention that there is a decent chance they will react with the coating on the plastic covering the greenhouse. While I am willing to gamble with my life (to some small extent) I am not willing to gamble with the covering on the greenhouse. The west systems line of epoxies also tends to chalk up when exposed to UV and the application was much more time intesive than the epoxy that I am planning on using, not to mention that it is much more expensive than what I am hoping to use.

As far as silicone in the corners, I think I am going to stay away from that as well. I do agree that it would give good flex to the corners but my fear is that it will eventually peel away from the epoxy. By using the fiberglass in the corners I know that I have a good seal and that it is water tight. If it were to crack then I will reconsider.

continuing down here ||
\/

kaptken
06/28/2007, 02:36 PM
well, if all else fails on coating vats, you can always get 8 foot diameter, 2 foot deep, heavy duty blue or white poly 600 gallon livestock watering tanks at Tractor Supply for about $240 each. they have a threaded 1 1/2 inch drain fitting too. tough enough for cattle to kick around, and big enough for a kiddie pool.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/

just do a quick register and you can get local prices.

Is there a store near you?

raaden
06/28/2007, 02:41 PM
As far as humidity, it has been surprisingly dry in the gh with the fans going all day long. Even with the evap cooler running the humidity is not bad. I am taking this with a grain of salt however as there is only about 200G of water right now, and in the winter there will not be nearly as much air exchange, so the humidity will build up much more. Also in the winter evaporation from the vats will be much higher since the temp differential will be going the other way.

I did look into a few rubber type products, in fact that was what led me to the polymer product that I am using in the blue tank, and my fear with the rubber was that saltwater is very harsh on rubber and will eventually emulsify it and break it down. I also remember that UV rays will speed that up.

:idea: Evap cooler 101. First let me say that I am far from an expert on this and I do remember taking part in a few threads where others (much smarter than I) were discussing this. IIRC it was in Ricks Thread. The way it basically works is the same as using evaporation on a fish tank to cool the tank. What you use is specially made cardboard walls with 45 degree angled channels for the air to flow through. Then you soak these in water and draw the outside air through them. The water evaporates from the panels and cools the remaining water on the cardboard. The cardboard panels then cool the air passing over them and this air goes into the greenhouse. It works pretty well at keeping the gh cool in my application although I have almost the whole back wall covered in them, and the air flow is pretty intense through the greenhouse. Temps so far have only reached the mid 80's on even the hottest (>98) days. BTW the cardboard walls are the brown part at the far end of the pictures.

I would defnitely stay away from Bondo (auto repair stuff) unless they have dramatically changed the makeup of it. It is pretty nasty stuff.

I looked at a bunch of different truck liners and was about to try out a product that was named something like RattleLiner but the price (and that one was the cheapest of them) was just too much. I think they would do a great job but for the amount I needed to use (and the fact that there was no volume discount) turned me off to it. One of the spray liners is actually in the process of being certified for Potable water tank use so that is a pretty good endorsement for the non-toxicity of the product.

I think I could do a bit better on the price by taking the prebuilt tanks to someone to coat but I haven't checked on that yet. I will have to get ahold of a few of the body shops around here and see what they say.

Right now I am running the RO brine to the evap cooler as it is still far below the recommended levels for the input water. The best part is that I don't have to dump the brine this way. Right now I don't have a drain :eek:

Sen
06/28/2007, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure about the pricing, maybe its the knock off for this idea:

Maybe you can get thin (2-3 mm) PVC-panels to cover the inside of your tanks. Gluing them together is easy and you don't get the pinholes by bubbles. You can glue an additional small stripe of PVC to the edges to be sure that they are leak-proof.

kaptken
06/28/2007, 03:37 PM
Oh , here you go, the direct link to the poly tank. and they have rubbermaids and tuff tubs too. I have some koi in a 110 gallon tuff tub.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/detail.asp?pcID=8&paID=1039&sonID=214&page=1&productID=24964

no shipping charges if you can pick them up at the local store.

mr.wilson
06/28/2007, 11:06 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10234783#post10234783 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kaptken
Oh , here you go, the direct link to the poly tank. and they have rubbermaids and tuff tubs too. I have some koi in a 110 gallon tuff tub.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/detail.asp?pcID=8&paID=1039&sonID=214&page=1&productID=24964

no shipping charges if you can pick them up at the local store.

You need some long arms to reach across those vats. The round shape also looses valuable space, as Raaden pointed out earlier.

kaptken
06/29/2007, 12:25 AM
Yup, you would need to go wading in them. same with the current vat dimensions, I figure. Can't reach a coral on the bottom in the middle two feet. that's a 3 foot reach to center line and 27 inches down which is a 45 inch reach. Dang! I can barely reach the bottom of a 90 gallon tank (24 inches deep?) reaching straight down the front glass. It seems to me that frag tanks should be shallow, like 12 - 18 inches deep, to reduce the volume of salt water required, and pump flows. which reduces operating cost. but with the livestock tubs you could install and plumb and fill them in a day or two and be up and running.

For DIY, I still like polyester resin and fiberglass cloth over wood. Inside the tank and outside for strength, and with a white polyester resin gelcoat for UV protection. same as making boats. commercial fiberglass aquaculture trays and tubs are similar, cheap, chopped strand fiberglass fiber sprayed on forms with low cost poylester resin with a gelcoat finish. nothing toxic about them after they are cured. just like boats and bathtubs and shower stalls.

I could concieve of a rolling bridge that could span the tubs and one could lay down on it and reach the center. lots of ways around the problems. and I thought the criteria was to install low cost tanks that would last 3 years. which might be the life of the plastic roof. . after 3 years , you could still sell the livestock tubs to a local rancher, when the experiment was done.

I'm a big DIY fan myself, and often find i can build something for twice the price, that works half as well as something else i could buy. But! You can't beat that satisfaction of saying, "I BUILT THAT"!

This is a great project! I hope it works out well. Aquaculture is the way we need to go.

raaden
06/30/2007, 01:59 PM
Sen,
Where do you find those pvc panels, I kind of like that idea. Depending on how much they go for I might try that to line one of the other tanks I have waiting.

Kaptken,
The reason the tanks are so deep is so that I can get a 6" layer of sand on the bottom then 9" of rock and algae and the top 4-6" is where the coral will live. only having to reach down about 8" is doable even in the middle section. I can't even reach a foot in from the sides right now to get to the bottom (darn these short arms) but once the bottom layers are on that shouldn't be an issue except to get to the LR if need be. In addition to the other layers having a deep tank gives you some insulation against fluctuation in temps and params. It takes a much more dramatic spike in temp or chemistry to affect 600G than it does 125G. This is something that was pretty important since I am going to try to only regulate the temps in the GH and I have to do all my chemistry in the evening after the day job is done.

Round tanks while I am pretty sure they would work functionally will waste a lot of grow space and that is my most limiting factor right now. I know that other people have tried them with pretty good success but for my layout I think they wouldn't work so well.

I definitely agree with being able to say "I built that", and most everything that is in the GH has that tag on it. That is one of my favoritest things about this project was that I wanted to be able to do all of the things that needed to get done. That way if I decide to expand later I will know what I can and can't do.

One thing about the epoxy I am using is that it doesn't need a top coat, I can't really explain why (they told me but it was a bit over my head) but it is not nearly as UV reactive as normal epoxies.

crazzy
06/30/2007, 02:26 PM
What is the rationale for 6" sand, then 9" rock (Live Rock?) then 4-6" Coral. ???

mr.wilson
06/30/2007, 02:35 PM
I can see the rationale (efficient use of space), but I'm curious to see how it's going to be illuminated below the top level.

crazzy
06/30/2007, 02:42 PM
Please explain? You have a DSB, then I am assuming wall to wall Rock, where does that get you?? What is it all then topped with grid plastic to hold the Frags for growing? What about water flow thru the Rock?

kmacartney
06/30/2007, 07:13 PM
Cardboard? Wow that is really interesting! How long are they supposed to last?


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10234381#post10234381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
As far as humidity, it has been surprisingly dry in the gh with the fans going all day long. Even with the evap cooler running the humidity is not bad. I am taking this with a grain of salt however as there is only about 200G of water right now, and in the winter there will not be nearly as much air exchange, so the humidity will build up much more. Also in the winter evaporation from the vats will be much higher since the temp differential will be going the other way.

I did look into a few rubber type products, in fact that was what led me to the polymer product that I am using in the blue tank, and my fear with the rubber was that saltwater is very harsh on rubber and will eventually emulsify it and break it down. I also remember that UV rays will speed that up.

:idea: Evap cooler 101. First let me say that I am far from an expert on this and I do remember taking part in a few threads where others (much smarter than I) were discussing this. IIRC it was in Ricks Thread. The way it basically works is the same as using evaporation on a fish tank to cool the tank. What you use is specially made cardboard walls with 45 degree angled channels for the air to flow through. Then you soak these in water and draw the outside air through them. The water evaporates from the panels and cools the remaining water on the cardboard. The cardboard panels then cool the air passing over them and this air goes into the greenhouse. It works pretty well at keeping the gh cool in my application although I have almost the whole back wall covered in them, and the air flow is pretty intense through the greenhouse. Temps so far have only reached the mid 80's on even the hottest (>98) days. BTW the cardboard walls are the brown part at the far end of the pictures.

I would defnitely stay away from Bondo (auto repair stuff) unless they have dramatically changed the makeup of it. It is pretty nasty stuff.

I looked at a bunch of different truck liners and was about to try out a product that was named something like RattleLiner but the price (and that one was the cheapest of them) was just too much. I think they would do a great job but for the amount I needed to use (and the fact that there was no volume discount) turned me off to it. One of the spray liners is actually in the process of being certified for Potable water tank use so that is a pretty good endorsement for the non-toxicity of the product.

I think I could do a bit better on the price by taking the prebuilt tanks to someone to coat but I haven't checked on that yet. I will have to get ahold of a few of the body shops around here and see what they say.

Right now I am running the RO brine to the evap cooler as it is still far below the recommended levels for the input water. The best part is that I don't have to dump the brine this way. Right now I don't have a drain :eek:

Sen
07/02/2007, 02:05 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10247504#post10247504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
Sen,
Where do you find those pvc panels, I kind of like that idea. Depending on how much they go for I might try that to line one of the other tanks I have waiting.


Its difficult for me to say, where to get them in the US because I live in Germany. Here you can get them in bigger dimensions from retailers for plastic materials (like Acryl etc.).

mr.wilson
07/02/2007, 03:28 PM
They sell stock PVC sheets at industrial plumbing distributors. It costs about the same as acrylic of the same thickness. I use it to mount digital meters and UV units on a board.

You'll pay $100.00 to $200.00 per 4' x 8' sheet depending on thickness (1/8" to 1/4").

You can bond it with PVC solvent, but it isn't a structural bond, just a water-proof seal.

It isn't an economical choice for your application.

Philip Root
07/02/2007, 03:36 PM
if you use PVC sheets you can weld it together. That is how the vats at PAF are put together if I remember right.

mr.wilson
07/02/2007, 03:53 PM
I've had welded PVC & Polypropylene vats in the past. They are very durable and look professional, but I would only go that route if you can pick them up at an auction, or store closing. Even at $0.10 to $0.25 on the dollar, they ain't cheap.

You can buy the welder at PVC supply houses, but the expense still lies in the cost of the materials.

The most cost effective plastic sheeting to use is extruded acrylic from China. It isn't as strong or clear as the North American supply of cast acrylic, and it can craze if you use too much methylene chloride (bonding agent), but as an inner liner, it doesn't matter.

raaden
07/03/2007, 07:51 AM
AFA the rational for the different layers, this is the intention: I am pretty fond of DSB's and have used them for most of my time in reefing. Also the idea is that there will be more flock in the tank to feed the corals if I go that route. I have seen people try to go BB and raise corals with varied levels of success. I am also going to try to go skimmerless for the most part to try to perfect some ways to raise coral larvae and skimmerless does not work for BB systems. I am also hoping that there will be a better critter population if there is a DSB.

I don't see the rock being wall to wall (atleast at the beginning), but more scattered throughout the area. The biggest reason for the 6-9 of rock is that I will be aquaculturing rock in the vats. Other reasons are that the rocks will store quite a bit of heat and cool to help with temp fluctuations. The final reason was that I had all this space under the corals and above the sand (depth was decided for temp and chemistry considerations) and thought that rock seemed like a good thing to put there ;) . There will also be some plants growing throughout the rock layer as well.

The lighting shouldn't be too much of an issue as the plants will be lowlight varieties, and rock doesn't need much light to liven up. On top of the rock/plant will be white eggrate in the summer and black eggcrate in the winter with the corals growing on that. white to reflect the heat and black to absorb the heat.


The evap blocks are supposed to last in 3-6 year range depending on how they are taken care of. In speaking with greenhouse crop growers they can last much longer than that if you can keep algae and moss from growing on them. I have found it quite amusing that I have to check the chemistry on the sump atleast once a week and add pool chemicals to keep the chemistry right so that it doesn't foul the blocks. Geez I wish I had payed better attention in chemistry classes :D .

Those PVC sheets do sound pretty expensive, I am not sure I can go that route right now. I did look into sheet acrylic early on in the BP and was discouraged by the pricing I found. IIRC it was somewhere around 60-80 a 4x8 sheet and I would need 4 sheets per tank. I haven't really looked at chinese imports of acrylic, but I will check on it. Is alibaba.com the best place to look or are there others.

mr.wilson
07/03/2007, 10:36 AM
I think you may find black eggcrate to be too expensive to use. It's also weaker (more flexible) than the cheaper white stuff. You can buy black acrylic eggcrate, rather than the standard polystyrene stuff, but it's even more expensive.

It may be cheaper to use some type of milk crates for strength, dark colour, and live rock storage as well. This would however, interfere with flow dynamics if you don't have lots of air lifts.

A friend of mine used to store live rock in plastic milk crates in 8' x 4' x 2' wood & epoxy vats. I think they stacked three high. He liked the idea of portability and being able to measure them out to the same weight. It also protected his epoxy coating. In his case it was wild collected live rock, so a month or two of darkness was a good thing.

Once you get a good colony of inverts growing on your white eggcrate, you'll have a hard time bringing yourself to putting the panels in storage. It certainly wouldn't hurt for you to test the black eggcrate idea though.

Your aquacultured rock will be of value as base rock, but it will be covered with hard tube worms and tunicates in diffused light. You may have to move it to a second stage to develop coraline algae. If you're getting your money's worth out of the coral growing area, I can't see much light filtering down.

Once again, it doesn't hurt to test it out on a small scale. Especially on your dime. :)

Thanks for sharing your experiences and results. I hope my comments are taken purely as constructive.

H20ENG
07/05/2007, 08:49 PM
Nice read:
http://www.aza.org/ConScience/CEF_Examples/Documents/CEF_Expample_Coral.pdf

raaden
07/06/2007, 02:16 PM
No worries Mr. Wilson and all,
All comments (except for the really mean ones :D ) are always taken as constructive. Trust me noone here could possible be as hard on me as the SCORE rep was while he was helping me get ready for meeting some investors. He was brutal, and I made it through alive, this has been easy in comparison.

That was a good read Eng, and it even sounded pretty reasonable too. Now hopefully they can increase the demand for AC corals and we'll all be happy :)

Mr. Wilson,
I found a shop that has the black eggcrate for the same price as the white. It is polystyrene, but it will have supports that run the length of it much like what Steven has. I am hoping that will make up for the softer material.

I am going to use milk crates for keeping the gracilaria and chaeto in and they will be interspersed with the LR. I don't see it having a large affect on the flow as most of it will be in the top few inches with the draw coming from the rock layer.

As far as the LR goes it really doesn't take much at most of the local shops for it to look better than what they have. I am planning on pricing it about the same as base rock anyway and it should be pretty decent. I have laid out a few trays of frag rocks on one of the vats and it is still pretty bright underneath with the cracks and diffused light. Although I expect this to go down later on when I add the shadecloth. I do think I have more light than most of the LR tanks at the LFS's.

Whaledriver
07/11/2007, 09:22 AM
Are you just going to put base rock in the tanks and wait for it to mature? Is there a local source of old coral rock that can be mined? The hard part is getting nice rock to start the process.
I just googled and found this:
http://www.realpagessites.com/olimar/page5.html This site has "Miami coral rock" for $150 a ton but what is it and how much is shipping for you?
What do you plan to grow out you corals on? Plugs are nice for a farmer but people want something that looks natural. They might also pay a premium.

slumpysix
07/17/2007, 07:08 AM
Any Updates?
We really needs some pictures too!

aquagurl
07/17/2007, 08:43 AM
I agree...I'm starting to feel deprived raaden. :( Any updates on the GH?

:rollface:

raaden
07/17/2007, 06:14 PM
I don't want anyone going through withdrawals because of me ... so here you go.

I will give the short version here but you can also find a more in-depth writeup of the choices and the application
Here (http://reef-farm.net/vatinput.aspx)
Here (http://reef-farm.net/liningvats.aspx)
And Here (http://reef-farm.net/liningvats2.aspx)

When last we saw our intrepid farmer he was working on the vats. That was by far the biggest set of issues I have run into yet. If you followed the business plan thread you will remember that I had some serious fears about this stage, but after talking with a boat builder I was going to get some fiberglass vats from him for a pretty decent price. That never worked out so I decided to go it on my own. The building part went really well although it was quite a bit of work, and only had to figure out what to do about lining them. Let the snags begin!!!

http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside18.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/GH-Outside19.jpg

I talked with quite a few product reps for all sorts of things from truck bed liners, to rubber pond liners, to fiberglassing epoxies, to tiling, to concrete liners, and just didn't find anything I liked. I finally went off the board and looked into some new types of waterproofing and found a few products that seemed very promising. I decided on two products as I wanted to make sure I had a backup should anything go wrong or I just didn't like the product once I used it, and chose a plastic rubber polymer, and a pond friendly epoxy. I had pretty high hopes for the epoxy and it seemed like it would work perfectly, and the polymer seemed great but I had concerns about how it would hold up to the abrasion I expected the sides to have from rocks falling and pulling the trays in and out all the time. The epoxy is basically the same thing used for fiberglass but it just doesn't have the fiberglass cloth in it and it was applied directly to the OSB walls and floor. The polymer is something that was being developed for flat roofs and is a fairly new product to market. The issue was that it never hardens and stays about the consistency of blue raspberry fruit rollups.

http://reef-farm.net/images/Filling%20the%20vats%20046.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_36.jpg

The polymer vat worked perfectly and was filled within a couple of weeks, the epoxy vat... not so much. I spent about 2 weeks after I thought it was ready just finding all of the pinhole leaks and patching them.

http://reef-farm.net/images/vats_25.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/Filling%20the%20vats%20019.jpg

I ended up scrapping the pond epoxy and completely recoating the tank with a brand new completely nontoxic and easy to use epoxy from a company that is going to market it as a potable water tank coating. This stuff worked great and since it is a thinner consistency it was able to seep into all of the voids that the pond epoxy wasn't. Part of this was due to the company making me a custom mix with a special hardener that is absolutely great.. although it does cure pretty quick so you have to work kind of fast. After recoating and letting the new epoxy cure the vat was ready to go and they both got filled, and so far have not shown any signs of leaking after being filled for about 3 weeks :thumbsup:.

I have added salt and my last few bags of southdown that I have been saving for 3 years for just this occasion.
http://reef-farm.net/images/Filling%20the%20vats%20005.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/Filling%20the%20vats%20030.jpg

All in all things have gone pretty well and except for a couple of weeks of chasing down holes in a tank I never thought would leak I have not had any regrets about starting this. I just really underestimated how much work was involved and how long things would take to get to this point. It's funny but through it all I just keep hearing the words of a very smart man who helped me get the plastic on (you know who you are ;) ) when he said "You're committed now", and just keep plowing forward.

I have a few more updates on the way, and I have started making rocks and have about 1500#s curing at the moment. I am also trying to get the sand in sometime next week along with (hopefully) the only wild additions to the tank in some LR to help get the first set of tanks seeded. I have been madly fragging everything I can get my hands on and my home tank is full of frags just sitting there waiting for me to get them into the greenhouse. My doctorfish is the worst though he just keeps staring at me with his evil eye begging for a chance to swim in the 600Gal vat.

raaden
07/17/2007, 06:29 PM
That miami rock sounds kind of promising, I am going to see if I can get more info on it later this week. If it is decent sized rubble I may have to get a dump truck full and piece it together into nice sized rocks. If freight is anything like the sand it will probably run ~$500-750 to get it from Florida. If I go with 12-15 tons that won't be too bad and should even out to ~.15-.20/# and that isn't bad if I can turn it around for $1.50/#, my fear is that it will be very small chunks like the kind they use for backfilling concrete work, and it would be alot of effort to piece that together into anything that someone would want to put in their tank.

Couple of quick things on the horizon...

I am trying out lots of different things in making the rocks. I have about 5 different recipes for the rock itself, and three different curing methods going so I should have some decent info from that once it is cured out and ready to go into the vats.

I have also made some pretty significant modifications to the business plan and I will try to get those changes into the BP thread later on once things have stabilized. I have also started working to consult with another old friend of mine on working out the logistics of another reef farm for him in Kansas. I have never really been fond of consulting but it has been pretty fun working on it, knowing that it is not my money that will be spent, and that I will get ~30% of the company if he decides to go through with it.

The other great part about working with him is how much better I can do things now that I have a pretty good idea of what I did wrong or what I could do better or with less effort. Looking back at it like that I really made it hard on myself even though I did quite a bit of homework and planning, especially in the construction. Like they say... "you live and learn... then you die" :p

Whaledriver
07/17/2007, 10:10 PM
A interesting long term benefit of consulting might be creating a connected group of growers. Imagine the possible selection that could be offered from a group of 10-20 growers with similar operations. At that point one central order site could generate the orders for all the growers and just email the UPS labels to the greenhouses around the country. I think there is virtual comparison to what vegetable farmers do to get their produce to market with a middleman. You could create a virtual middle man and thereby lowering the cost to market your frags. This would also allow growers to specialize without flooding local markets since they could market them across the country as a group cost effectively.

JCTewks
07/17/2007, 11:56 PM
Here is a company doing something similiar to Whalediver's idea...only they are selling plants. You might be able to get some info from them on the logistics of how they operate if that is something you'd like to pursue. When I get my aquaculturing going i'd be interested in discussing this with some other "farmers".

raaden
07/18/2007, 06:32 AM
Whaledriver,

You are spot on with the comment on connecting growers, and for the record a few of us have already started something like this back in the beginning of the year. IIRC I even covered some ideas I had back in the BP thread. This is definitely something that I am a huge proponent of and would like to see get bigger and bigger as more people begin farming corals. In my opinion this is really the only way that farmed corals can compete on a broad basis with imported wild caught corals. For a generic number a single importer will bring in somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000-50,000 pieces a month. It would take quite a few very large scale operations to even compete with a single importer let alone the hundreds that are in California.

One of the reasons is, like you said, that different growers can focus on different products and through a clearing house of sorts Reef Farmers can offer the same breadth and level of products that importers do. One of the issues that concerns me is the idea of having to ship the products twice as this accounts for a huge amount of losses in the importer/transship industry. I will be honest and say that I have not come up with much as far as this issue goes but I do have a few ideas. The other is that a holding facility would have to be created to centrally stock everything and location will be key for something like that. Right now the local airport (RDU) does not have enough direct flights to accommodate me handling that part of the operation, but I am definitely going to make sure this happens as I get closer to full production.

When I first moved to Raleigh I spent some time in the Ag extension office and that was one of the big things I talked with them about. Locally there are quite a few ag co-ops and many of them have ties to national co-ops to move excess product. With plant products the coops focus was on satisfying the local market first, and then moving the excess product to the national market, and this makes quite a bit of sense as you will have a slightly better margin if you don't have to absorb the costs of shipping and losses for interstate freight.

What surprised me most was that each of the coops worked with the others and when one needed some product that they didn't have the others would step up and provide it at competitive rates so that the original group was somewhat compensated for providing the "referral". I really like this idea as it takes the competitive and cut throat nature of southern California importers and throws it out the window. Especially for a group of very small operations (in comparison to the Importers) working together in a close knit group of suppliers with each picking up portions of the unsupplied demand could really boost the visibility and interest level in domestic aquacultured corals.

Let me jump down from the soapbox with this comment: This is something that I have written pages and pages of ideas on and as the time gets closer I will definitely refine them and look for others that are interested. I see this as one of the most important things for success in domestic coral aquaculture.

Now it's your turn... discuss. I would love to hear ideas :idea:

RedSonja
07/18/2007, 09:22 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10360244#post10360244 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
It's funny but through it all I just keep hearing the words of a very smart man who helped me get the plastic on (you know who you are ;) ) when he said "You're committed now", and just keep plowing forward.

I seem to recall hearing that comment. :D Sometimes I think we (or at least I) should all just *be* committed (to the loony bin) but until that happens, onward it is.

Looking good on the vats. We're working on turning our garage into one big vat :D Only 500 gallons so far but with a bit of rearranging it should be up to 1200 gallons before too much longer. Now I need to get back to it and figure out what pvc parts we need to get another return plumbed in, now that we got a couple of MH reflectors hung where we want them.

-Sonja

RedSonja
07/18/2007, 10:13 AM
As for the co-op thing, raaden and a few others know how I feel on that one, but for the public record, I'm 110% all for it. There's no way us farmers can match the quantity of the trans-shippers, we can only hope to compete on better quality. If we each find our niche and grow what we're best at, then we all stand a better chance of surviving.

-Sonja

Whaledriver
07/18/2007, 03:19 PM
One idea for a central order website is to keep track of a customers zip code and have the site list prices with a shipping cost from the individual farmer listed along with the price of the frag. This would put the information in front of the purchaser.

I think the only way you could really compete is to eliminate the trans-shipping location all together. One possible option is to collect products in a region and ship them collectivity without re bagging them.

slumpysix
07/18/2007, 07:02 PM
thanks for the update raaden, really takes commitment to get things done. have a great weekend working!:)

H20ENG
07/18/2007, 09:43 PM
I wonder how that blueberry goop holds up on a flat roof? Do they coat it with gravel like a hot tar roof? Did the rep tell you it would never dry before he sold it to you? Have you tried sticking sand to it?
FWIW, you can thin epoxy with acetone for the first coat. It helps it seep into all the nooks and crannies better. I know, I know, should have told you that last year....

midi
07/18/2007, 10:03 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10259274#post10259274 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
They sell stock PVC sheets at industrial plumbing distributors. It costs about the same as acrylic of the same thickness. I use it to mount digital meters and UV units on a board.

You'll pay $100.00 to $200.00 per 4' x 8' sheet depending on thickness (1/8" to 1/4").

You can bond it with PVC solvent, but it isn't a structural bond, just a water-proof seal.

It isn't an economical choice for your application.

Has anyone looked at Azek? It's PVC moulding used for outdoor trim boards, fascia, etc. A 4x10 foot 3/8 inch thick piece costs me $90 in Northern Virginia. Haven't made a tank out of it, but it is PVC and might work if you reinforce the corners.

aquagurl
07/18/2007, 10:18 PM
Awesome...thanks for the update
Count me in on the co-op...a few years down the road that is. :)

JCTewks
07/18/2007, 10:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10366185#post10366185 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
One idea for a central order website is to keep track of a customers zip code and have the site list prices with a shipping cost from the individual farmer listed along with the price of the frag. This would put the information in front of the purchaser.

I think the only way you could really compete is to eliminate the trans-shipping location all together. One possible option is to collect products in a region and ship them collectivity without re bagging them.

my thought was more like when an order is placed on the website, a script automatically sends the order to the farmers who have those frags in their system. That farmer then fills the order and ships to the customer. Totally eliminates the need for a central anything, other than computer. Shipping may be a little higher, but I would think that would be a trad-off willing to be made for more live corals arriving to the end user. There wopuld prob be a highe mortality rate if everything had to go to a central location. Now that i think about it, shipping would be higher if using a central location for final order shipment. Everything would have to be shipped by the farmer to the hub, then from the hub to the customer.

RedSonja
07/19/2007, 07:43 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10369202#post10369202 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCTewks
my thought was more like when an order is placed on the website, a script automatically sends the order to the farmers who have those frags in their system. That farmer then fills the order and ships to the customer. Totally eliminates the need for a central anything, other than computer. Shipping may be a little higher, but I would think that would be a trad-off willing to be made for more live corals arriving to the end user. There wopuld prob be a highe mortality rate if everything had to go to a central location. Now that i think about it, shipping would be higher if using a central location for final order shipment. Everything would have to be shipped by the farmer to the hub, then from the hub to the customer.

I don't think it's feasible to ship to a central location, no. And I think the best bet is each farm to ship to distributors, and possibly larger LFS, rather than to "end users." Bagging and packing and shipping 1 or 4 coral is a lot of work for not much return. Shipping 400 to one destination is a lot of work for a much better return. Yes it means they are unbagged and later rebagged to ship once more if to a distributor but the in-transit times are hopefully short.

-Sonja

mr.wilson
07/19/2007, 07:49 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10368794#post10368794 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H20ENG
I wonder how that blueberry goop holds up on a flat roof? Do they coat it with gravel like a hot tar roof? Did the rep tell you it would never dry before he sold it to you? Have you tried sticking sand to it?
FWIW, you can thin epoxy with acetone for the first coat. It helps it seep into all the nooks and crannies better. I know, I know, should have told you that last year....

I use lacquer thinner to thin the first coat. It really helps prime and penetrate the surface. It also makes the epoxy paint go farther.

In the end, labour is the most significant "cost". I've set-up a few commercial fishrooms, and one lesson I have learned is my time isn't free. My stubborn attempt at doing everything myself (to save money) cost me in the end when completion dates fell behind and I burnt myself out. I spent too many resources on building and not enough on selling; however, a greenhouse project isn't as critical, as monthly overhead, ie. rent, utilities, taxes, labour, loan payments etc., are limited while you are in the construction stage.

The same thing can happen down the road when you're completely set-up (if one can ever be completely set-up:)). It's easy to burry your head in the task of coral propagation and financial planning, to the point of neglecting the sales end of the business. That's why transshippers drive $200,000.00 cars (all quantity and no quality). You'll have to find a happy medium.

I can't agree more with the co-op idea. It's the only thing that has kept farmers (of food and plants/flowers) in business. Having to dump surplus corals at a rock bottom prices isn't good for anyone. A co-op will help redistribute a surplus across a broader area.

The hardest part will be distribution. It seems that many people are suggesting a direct to the final consumer (hobbyist), channel of distribution. I think the amount of resources that go into packing and shipping an order make it impractical to sell direct to the public. It would be more efficient and profitable to ship a big order to a distributor or series of retailers. Although, the first two or three years will be slow and retail sales may be necessary.

JCTewks
07/19/2007, 11:09 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10370419#post10370419 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RedSonja
I don't think it's feasible to ship to a central location, no. And I think the best bet is each farm to ship to distributors, and possibly larger LFS, rather than to "end users." Bagging and packing and shipping 1 or 4 coral is a lot of work for not much return. Shipping 400 to one destination is a lot of work for a much better return. Yes it means they are unbagged and later rebagged to ship once more if to a distributor but the in-transit times are hopefully short.

-Sonja

That makes more sense...going a wholesale route instead of retail.

Whaledriver
07/19/2007, 12:31 PM
Retail versus wholesale are just different ways to the market. It shouldn't effect profitability if you can maintain you margins and prices. The cost of going retail should be in the price. A coop of some type will lower those costs.

This really is a new way of getting things to the customer. Its a continuation of the lowering of costs and limiting steps to the market that has been going on for decades. This approach uses the power of technology to eliminate the distributor. With verious things hurting the LFS this might be a way to get your products in front of the final customer nationwide.

raaden
07/19/2007, 01:27 PM
WhaleDriver,

Where were you when we were hashing out all of this... You are on almost the exact same track as we were with your central order comment :thumbsup: We took it one step further and looked into delivery routes for lfs's that would also transport each farmers goods to a all the other facilities. I am not sure that last comment made sense, but the idea was that if everyone was within 2 hours of each other you could avoid the shipping by handling transport during delivery. this allows a broader geographical are to be considered part of a group, but you would have to have a pretty cohesive group to make it work. This assumes a bunch of other decisions that were made but you are definitely on the right track.


JCTewks,
Your idea was also my first, but logistically it is hard to sell to a customer. Think about it this way:
The idea of having each farmer who has a certain peice of stock ship it out to a customer who requests it; is great from the coops pov, but from a fulfillment perspective it is a nightmare. The shipping charges would get a bit out of hand if you have 10 farmers each packing and shipping 2 pieces. You would have to pay 10 shipping charges, packing charges, potentially 10 different delivery dates and 10 different pieces of tracking information.

I have never owned an LFS but I have been good friends with a few of them and I don't think they would go for that. The shipping charges alone would probably be the killer, as shipping in mass boxes can add upwards of 15-25% to the cost of the product, if they are shipped separately it would be even worse, and there goes any competitive pricing edge.

As far as Sonjas idea goes if you take into consideration the terribly described idea from the beginning of the post, and combine it with large water filled coolers used for transport, then I think you get the best of both worlds. No additional shipping costs, no bagging or unbagging, a central ordering/tracking area, and delivery costs that go to the farmer not to UPS or Fedex. The only issues that could come up are that if the coral has to make 2 or more hops then it would have to undergo water changes with potentially different water, but most corals will handle that if they are prepped correctly, transported in good health.

Once again I agree with Whaledrivers last comment except for one thing: the choice of wholesale or retail is the largest factor in your margins and prices, if you sell retail you can split the middle man fee with the retail facility, if you sell wholesale your margin takes the hit. So you only have a limited amount of control over your margin depending on which route you go. The last part of WD's comment is absolutely spot on.

Raa

Whaledriver
07/19/2007, 03:42 PM
If you had enough growers in a area freight consolidation, without re bagging, would be a great option. On a retail level individual frag sales with freight would still be competitive if you eliminate the middlemen overhead

I think some of these ideas will let the guy with a 1000 gallon setup make a few bucks and help the hobby. This guy might not get rich but a concept to make it worthwhile would help lower the demand for wild imports.

raaden
07/19/2007, 05:39 PM
That Azek looks like a good product; I looked into some pvc sheeting from another company a few weeks ago but the pricing was pretty high around here. I think that might be due to all of the building going on around here and the fact that they wouldn't give me a contractor account. The only problem with it is that you still need to use fasteners as well as glue to hold it in place. I am not sure if pvc glue would work for sealing the holes from the fasteners or not but if it did it would not be a bad choice.

The first epoxy rep didn't say anything about trying a thinned out coat first and I didn't really know any better so I didn't do that on the first one but all of the rest will be wash coated for sure. I am fairly confident that a wash coat, along with the thinner nature of the second epoxy will get rid of any hole issues. The second place suggested using Isopropanol as the thinning agent as it was the only one he knew of that didn't use some sort of oil based thinning agent. I am not sure if it would matter in the wash coat or not but using acetone or MEK would defeat the benefit of having a nontoxic epoxy.

AFA the "blueberry goop" ( I like that name :) ) it doesn't get mixed with anything and it is supposed to last 3-5 years on a flat roof with no topcoating. That is pretty impressive for a flat roof coating. With topcoating they expect it to last >10 years, the topcoating is to eliminate premature aging due to UV. In my situation UV shouldn't be a big deal as 90% of the polymer surface is underwater, and the gh plastic, is supposed to, block 98% anyway. When I talked with the guy he said that it will remain tacky for quite a while and in a humid environment it may never fully dry. His explanation was that this product does not out-gas so it will remain softer longer.

I know what you mean Mr. Wilson about the DIY'ing everything and running behind. I was expecting to be into the F1 prop level already and I am just getting the LR in the tanks this week. I think alot of it was done for curiosity sake plus I have to admit I love a challenge. I am pretty sure next time I will have alot of it done for me, just for times sake.

I agree with the selling retail comment. The closest that I would even consider getting to that is the selling "to" retail, but probably won't mess with actually selling retail, although I have a few ideas on how to make that work as well.

raaden
07/19/2007, 05:47 PM
WD,

The distribution idea I "tried" to explain earlier, was born from almost that exact principle. I realize that most people don't have the time, money or land to make a greenhouse work, but still want to contribute to the market. Besides if you put 10 smaller fraggers together they can make a sizable amount of frags. The thought was that everyone could benefit (especially the reefs themselves).

Another thought was that the guy with a decent sized setup could sell his frags and even make some money picking up and delivering the product as well as handling the tracking and product fulfillment. I am hoping that by the time I am at full production I won't have time for doing deliveries or handling fulfillment. :D

JCTewks
07/19/2007, 10:47 PM
It sounds to me like you guys are talking about a regional (100-150 mile radius) co-op. I guess I was thinking more on a national scale, where corals would have to spend a day or so in a bag to get to a hub , say, in the midwest somewhere. then spend another day in transit to the customer. To me that's where individual farmers shipping individual orders makes more sense.

If you were to work it where say a GH grower in a central location would consolidate frags from several small-medium growers at their GH and distribute from there. You could only have growers within an hour or so's drive from the "hub" participating to make it viable for the small-medium grower to spend the gas to get there.

Yuo could take that Idea another step and have all of the GH growers/hubs on a consolidated website where buyers could pick a location and browse the stock in that particular area. Or if the buyer wanted to make orders from multiple locations, they could choose that and pay the extra shipping. I think this could work retail or wholesale...margins would def be better retail.

If you really think about it...there are hobbyists that will buy 1 coral from a website and pay 100+ dollars for it and $25 to ship it, then order a different piece from another website and pay $25 to ship that one too. I really think that Retail is the way to make this thing work.

If one Hub had an abundance of a particular coral that another hub lacked, the one with excess could ship some to the other region where some could be sold, as well as new broodstock being introduced.

Raaden: What is your target market oncce you reach full production?

erics3000
07/20/2007, 01:21 AM
WOW...You got my wheels turning/....Nice Work so far..

mr.wilson
07/20/2007, 07:34 AM
I guess shipping laws are different in the United States than Canada. It's against the law (and shipping company policy) to ship live animals in Canada unless it's through a climate controlled warehouse and means of transport. Up here in Canada, we don't have climate control for Mail or ground courier shipments. Air transport and bus cargo are the only viable means of shipping in Canada, but it's cost prohibitive for small orders.

Some companies still ship fish and corals by ground courier, and list them as another commodity on the waybill. With the way security is getting these days, it's not a good idea to falsify the shipping documents. Beyond the legal requirements and potential mortality and damage, there are ethical factors that come into play as well.

How does livestock shipping work in the US? How do you ship a small order across the country?

I guess I'm out of touch with US frag prices. Is it really $100.00 for a frag that you would find in domestic greenhouse mariculture? They go for $20.00 retail and $10.00 wholesale up here. To me, it makes more sense to spend a couple of hours packing and shipping 300 frags to a wholesaler for $3,000.00, rather than an hour on each $100.00 retail order.

Wholesalers just email their orders and make no claims, while retail customers want pictures, water parameters, lighting conditions, and a pedigree. By the time they are done telling you about there tank, you could have packed a wholesale order. Yes, you are charging twice as much, but you are spending exponentially more on resources (website maintenance, tracking multiple orders, paperwork, Paypal & credit card charges, extra packing materials, marketing, multiple trips to the shipping terminal, taking orders, and follow-up emails etc.).

Selling retail is a whole job in and of itself. One of the dangers of a new business is wearing too many hats. I'm sure Raaden can find a local business or partner to handle the retail end of things as a separate entity. Those big wholesale accounts tend to disappear once you start selling retail for half price.

Whaledriver
07/20/2007, 08:43 AM
Regional hubs have definite advantages. So does shipping excess stock to other hubs. As far as going just wholesale I think LFS retail is a dieing industry due to Internet competition and other overhead costs. Who is going to be your wholesale customer? I wonder if internet retailers are going to buy enough. I guess if the LFS goes away then the demand will be met somehow.

RedSonja
07/20/2007, 09:14 AM
Lots of good ideas here, everyone. Glad to see input from lots of sources. As for the retail part, I should say I would be happy to sell retail if the customer is willing to pay the prices I'd have to charge. :) I'm not quite ready to do that yet but hopefully soon, on small scale. I need more electric circuits, so some of this broodstock needs to start paying its way! :)

-Sonja

mr.wilson
07/20/2007, 09:32 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10378112#post10378112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
Regional hubs have definite advantages. So does shipping excess stock to other hubs. As far as going just wholesale I think LFS retail is a dieing industry due to Internet competition and other overhead costs. Who is going to be your wholesale customer? I wonder if internet retailers are going to buy enough. I guess if the LFS goes away then the demand will be met somehow.

I think you underestimate the volume that retail sales command. Etail will be around forever, but it hasn't been commercially successful yet. Most of these companies come and go in a few years. Others are hobby businesses for people with a day job that pays the bills. They may not pay as much rent as retailers, but they have higher marketing costs.

In talking to large wholesalers of drygoods and livestock, they have informed me that etail companies make up less than 10% of their business. They make big opening orders when a new product comes out, but they can't keep up to the retail market. It's only their marketing hype that makes them appear to be a significant segment of the market.

The most successful etailers are ones that do it as a sideline to their regular wholesale business. They lose some popularity when they become competitors of their customers, but they are so big, that they don't lose their patronage.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I appreciate the value of service you get with a retail store. Etailers offer self-serve sales with "contact the manufacturer" warranties. The crash of the .com industry is self evident of it's tentative existence. Of any industry, marine livestock is just about the hardest commodity to pull off without any service or safe delivery practices; however, mail-order sales will always have a value for people that live in small towns and don't have access to a good LFS.

raaden
07/20/2007, 03:58 PM
Initially our idea was to have a regional coop, but depending on how many are involved and what the delivery patterns are like there isn't anything stopping it from becoming larger that regional. Hubs are a pretty good idea and if enough product is exchanged that would certainly work as well. One idea that we threw around was that if a few single farmers created some routes along a trip to the GH hub you could work enough volume to make it worth it, but I agree for small farmers you are probably talking 50 miles or so before it gets too far to make it worth it.

I do like the idea of having stock selectable by location and just have the customer decide whether to pay the shipping or not. My hesitation is that most retail operators are creatures of habit and if anything is too different from what they are used to they won't even consider it. I think you could have that as an option but I would still want to have the "local" list to select from as well.

My target market will be the LFS's in about a 100 mile range. I will more than likely not pursue retail except for a pilot idea that I will be working on once I have product to market. I am also not going to get into selling "to" wholesale until I have more product than the local market can support. I think this mix will give me some early cashflow and once I have that cash flow I can begin to take the 20-40% "hit" of selling to wholesale.

Shipping via carrier is a very sketchy proposition when you get down to the meat of it. I did some looking into the actual issues that might occur when I set up an account with a Fedex rep. I was pretty honest with her what I was considering and she sent me some manifest restrictions which surprised me quite a bit. It is a pretty long story but the basic point is that if your package were to leak onto a Monet painting and ruin it you would be liable for it if it could be traced back to you. What are the chances of that... pretty slim and not a big concern for a person selling a few items at a time, but for a company with quite a bit to lose and shipping constantly it is not a chance I would be willing to take. Not to mention that shipping live animals is listed as prohibited but even the rep told me that they will let it slide as long as it is not obvious (holes cut in the box so that your dog can breathe... those are her words). They will not insure claims against living things though. All shipping I do will be by freight carrier where these things are not a concern, or by local delivery, again not a concern (except to the interior of my car :D ).

Mr Wilson hit my thoughts on selling directly "to" retail (i.e. mail order to a customer) on the head, with the exception noted above.

I will get some more thoughts up later... right now I have to go and gaze at my shipment that has just come in :))))))

JCTewks
07/20/2007, 10:31 PM
whadya get huh huh huh :) LOL

I've heard that some LFS will not buy from a company that sells retail also as it makes them feel like sales are being taken from them.

I'm still digesting the last several posts and will post again later with some thoughts.

Thanks everyone for a thread that is really piquing my mind to go some places it hasn't been in awhile. :)

mr.wilson
07/21/2007, 07:43 AM
One concept that will help you get started with premium mother colonies is an arrangement with the local hobbyists to become "stockholders".

The frag stockholder would invest a few select frags or mother pieces and they would receive a credit for three frags from the first harvest, kind of a stud fee. The credit could be used toward other varieties from the crop, as long as they are of equal value (size and quality). It would be at the farmers discretion as to when the dividend would be paid out, as stock levels need to be established before stockholders can cash-in.

The stockholder would have the opportunity to invest in a good cause (coral farm), and
receive a coral dividend. The farmer would get hard to find, premium mother colonies without laying out any cash. As we all know it takes years of searching to find unique corals worthy of propagation.

JCTewks
07/21/2007, 11:34 AM
THat sems likea great Idea!

raaden
07/26/2007, 02:57 PM
A few quick updates while I have a minute. I am still working on getting an official update up as there has been quite a lot going on.

I got mostly live rock... ~1300#'s of it. I did also get some incredible zo's and paly, some cool melon mushrooms, a few radial mushrooms and a neon mumps leather that doesn't seem to be very happy. I think I know why though: when I was unpacking and acclimating him I told him about his future home and now I think he is throwing a tantrum until I get him out there. Oh Yeah also on a personal level I got a Desjardini Sailfin as this and a sohal tang have been things I have always wanted... Now it is just the sohal on the list.

Well the past week or so I spent unpacking the order of rocks and other goodies, and starting the tanks on their way to cycling. I wanted to try out some different types of rock to see if there was any differences one things got going so I have a Kaelini rock vat, a Pocillopora rock vat, and a tonga branch rock vat.

The Kaelini rock was very clean and colorful so that went in as is to the polymer vat, the pocillopora rock was nice as well but pretty gunky. My first thought was to scrub it off and clean it up as much as I could like I normally would if I were starting a new tank trying to minimize the cycle time, but since this is all about experimentation I decided to see what would happen if I just left; so in the tank it went gunk and all. This was around noon of last friday, by saturday night the epoxy vat (pocillopora) was beginning to look like a 2-3 week old phyto culture, while the Kaelini vat was turning a pretty standard brown (but still quite clear in comparison to the other).

I was going to change out some water in the expoxy vat, but we promised the little one we would go see the new Harry Potter movie in IMAX so it would have to wait until Sunday. Saturday night was spent setting up another 55G tank in the extra room to hold the ever growing staging area for things waiting for the GH.

Sunday when I got out to the GH (around 9:30 or so) the expoxy vat had all but exploded into full-on, ready-to-be-split, phyto culture, and all of this in just about 2 days. It was so dark you couldn't see 8" deep into the tank, and was as green as any phyto culture I have ever had. At this point I was afraid anything nice that might be on/in the rocks was dying so I started my water changes immediately. 150G out; 150G in. It lightened up a bit as I could see the whitest tips of the broken skeletons, but it was still very very green. I then did a 75G water change on the poly vat just for good measure.

The rest of the day was spent modifying the entrance doors to go from a single opening to a double opening french door. That took alot more time than I thought it might but was pretty easy and went well considering I had no idea what was going to happen when I basically cut the door out of the frame. It worked beautifully and now I have a full 68" of opening for bringing in just about anything I need, and the best part is that I can back the truck right into the GH through the doorway for unloading things.

After all that was done it was >8pm and I looked back in the epoxy vat to see that my "phyto tank" had blossomed again, another 150G water change and I could again see the tips of the highest skeletons in the vat. I did this every day this week making a single water change of 150G once a day only to have it completely rebloom the next day by the time I got home. Then today for the first time it didn't get any darker. It was about the same (maybe a tad bit darker based on my "super scientific white stick test") as when I had changed the water the night before, so I think that is good news and tonight I will begin testing the NH4 NO2, and NO3 to see where I stand. I have also started to notice a pretty intense diatom bloom on the poly tank so that one should be about ready for testing as well.

I will let you know how the testing goes and I am hoping to get some cycle fishies in there in the next few days.

Whaledriver
07/26/2007, 04:47 PM
Do you have skimmers running on the rock tanks?
If anyone wanted to test a skimmer near you give them a call since it wont get any better than this for testing!

raaden
07/26/2007, 06:13 PM
No skimmers on the vats as of now, and I am hoping to go skimmerless even during normal operations.

quick results from the tests this evening and I am wondering what I have found.
Epoxy tank
PH 8.6
NO2 0.1
NO3 8.0
NH3 0.35

Polymer tank
PH 8.8
NO2 0.0
NO3 8
NH3 1.0

I am pretty surprised at these test results and I am not sure if the sunlight has put the cycling into overdrive or if the vats are just so nasty that the tests aren't showing what is really going on. I have had new setups cycle fast before but not nearly this fast.

I'm inclined to believe the cycling is just about done since there is hair algae starting to grow all over the place and the smell is just about gone. Saturday and Sunday the smell was getting so bad that I thought I was going to give the nearby horse stalls a run for the money, now you have put your nose down to the waterline to even get a hint of it. The other thing that makes me think it is at the end of the cycle is the fact that there are hordes of bubbles coming up through the water everywhere. One corner where the rockwork is thick the water almost looks carbonated there are so many bubbles coming up. The edges of the epoxy tank even have a bubble buildup where the surface tension is not letting them pop.

I am going to test again tomorrow to see how it changes but if something doesn't spike I will probably send in the "canary's" and see what happens.

erics3000
07/26/2007, 06:59 PM
Why are you going skimerless? Just wanted to get your thoughts on that..

slumpysix
07/26/2007, 08:03 PM
Saturday and Sunday the smell was getting so bad

Ahhh the smell of ocean azzz....gotta love it....


you know we still need pictures weekly :rollface:



-Jeff

Philip Root
07/26/2007, 09:10 PM
I have been there........ IMO get a uv that you can move around.

mr.wilson
07/26/2007, 09:20 PM
Do yourself a favour and buy a diatom filter. Either a Pentair, or generic brand pool diatom filter will remove the green water in a few hours. It will be perfectly clear in 24 hours.

A smaller OceanClear diatom filter would also work, but it would have to be cleaned more frequently. Ocean Clear has a 9 watt UV sterilizer module you can add, and Pentair has a separate 40 watt UV unit that can be plumbed in series.

Water changes are a waste of money. Kent Pro-Clear will act as a coagulant and help collect the free-swimming algae. Don't overdose it, as it depletes dissolved oxygen (D.O.) rates.

Pressure washing the rock with saltwater and covering the vat to keep out light would also be a good idea. Coraline algae will bounce back when you illuminate the vat in three weeks.

Whaledriver
07/26/2007, 09:51 PM
Diatom filter as nutrient export? How does the cost compare to water changes? On a similar line of thought, what is your method of nutrient export? Algae filter?

Glad to see you didnt have any leaks.

mr.wilson
07/26/2007, 10:09 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10422965#post10422965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
Diatom filter as nutrient export? How does the cost compare to water changes? On a similar line of thought, what is your method of nutrient export? Algae filter?

Glad to see you didnt have any leaks.

Diatom filter as mechanical filtration. It will solve the phytoplankton problem and remove POC, but it cannot act as a biological or chemical filter.

You can add a carbon cartridge to most units to remove DOC, but it would be futile with live rock die-off.

The best way to deal with die off is through physical removal (pressure spraying), and biological filtration. Biological filtration can be carried out by simply providing the rock with enough oxygen to foster the growth of existing nitrifying bacteria. The cheapest and most efficient method is to create an ebb and flow system, whereby the vat fills and drains in a perpetual cycle.

You can have two vats hooked up to one another with one vat filling while the other one drains. The rock would be exposed to atmospheric oxygen for 50% of the time, thus creating a giant wet/dry filter. This can be achieved through the use of timers, or solenoids. The only dowsid eis the extra odour, but you're already there, and it will go away quickly. Nitrate accumulation isn't a concern with acclimating rock.

raaden
07/27/2007, 06:43 AM
I will get to the latest set of comments along with an "official" update tonight, but I did want to ring in on an earlier comment
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10384375#post10384375 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
One concept that will help you get started with premium mother colonies is an arrangement with the local hobbyists to become "stockholders".


I agree that would be an interesting setup and might actually bring about some added interest. It sounds alot like what Steve Tyree is doing out in Ca with his limited edition corals although I am not sure if he is using the stockholders angle or is just letting the original owners in on some sort of cut.

There are a few reasons I don't think it would work out in my situation though and I will list them below, although I have been taking in some colonies from fellow hobbyists they are more of a donation.
1. The way Steve does it is to keep only the single colony and frag off of just it in a way that keeps the original mother as the single donor. This works well for his "limited edition" concept and ensures that he will have a market for his corals years and years down the road. He is definitely going for the concept of making alot of money on a few products which is certainly a viable way to do business, but my concept is a bit different.
2. The idea of bringing in a few choice peices and sharing in the profits only works if there is a constant demand for those pieces, and with my design of selling to the LFS market something like that would flood the market and quickly those pieces are not choice anymore, at which point I would have to flip to a different group of pieces or send the originals to a wholesaler. The problem comes 12-18 months down the road where does that leave the hobbyist who owns stock. His pieces are not selling anymore or are not bringing the type of return he was expeciting and his stock becomes effectively worthless (I for one know how I have felt when I owned stock in a company and it became worth nothing :( Thanx Delta)
3. The "redeeming quality" of my business plan is that I want to make full reef aquaria (as opposed to the most common type of FOWLR) affordable and easy enough that just about anyone can do it. The only way I have come up with to do that is to work out a system where I work with the LFS's so that we can lower the price and increase the sustainability of inhabitants. One major issue is that if you have to pay $40-80 for a pretty standard coral (and much more for the really choice pieces), no matter how pretty it is, most people are going to skip it. My goal is to have racks and racks of corals priced $15-20 so that the average hobbyist can give it a go. That price point is key and the only way to do that is to have alot of stock moving through the stores. At that pricepoint there is not alot of room for shareholder return, unfortunately.
4. **Lastly if we go back to the idea of doing a coop that is the sort of territory I would like to work with the smaller growers on. They can specialize is a very rare or premium piece and get premium prices for them, and have a go at reef-farming by making a greater return on a smaller quantity of product. If I were to get into that market it would probably shut out the majority of small growers, and that is not at all what I want. I want to work with anyone who wants to give reef-farming a go and this was one area where I thought that could happen very easily. The other being fish breeding, as I don't think I would have the time to put into that on a large scale.

mr.wilson
07/27/2007, 09:48 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10424354#post10424354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by raaden
I will get to the latest set of comments along with an "official" update tonight, but I did want to ring in on an earlier comment


I agree that would be an interesting setup and might actually bring about some added interest. It sounds alot like what Steve Tyree is doing out in Ca with his limited edition corals although I am not sure if he is using the stockholders angle or is just letting the original owners in on some sort of cut.

There are a few reasons I don't think it would work out in my situation though and I will list them below, although I have been taking in some colonies from fellow hobbyists they are more of a donation.
1. The way Steve does it is to keep only the single colony and frag off of just it in a way that keeps the original mother as the single donor. This works well for his "limited edition" concept and ensures that he will have a market for his corals years and years down the road. He is definitely going for the concept of making alot of money on a few products which is certainly a viable way to do business, but my concept is a bit different.
2. The idea of bringing in a few choice peices and sharing in the profits only works if there is a constant demand for those pieces, and with my design of selling to the LFS market something like that would flood the market and quickly those pieces are not choice anymore, at which point I would have to flip to a different group of pieces or send the originals to a wholesaler. The problem comes 12-18 months down the road where does that leave the hobbyist who owns stock. His pieces are not selling anymore or are not bringing the type of return he was expeciting and his stock becomes effectively worthless (I for one know how I have felt when I owned stock in a company and it became worth nothing :( Thanx Delta)
3. The "redeeming quality" of my business plan is that I want to make full reef aquaria (as opposed to the most common type of FOWLR) affordable and easy enough that just about anyone can do it. The only way I have come up with to do that is to work out a system where I work with the LFS's so that we can lower the price and increase the sustainability of inhabitants. One major issue is that if you have to pay $40-80 for a pretty standard coral (and much more for the really choice pieces), no matter how pretty it is, most people are going to skip it. My goal is to have racks and racks of corals priced $15-20 so that the average hobbyist can give it a go. That price point is key and the only way to do that is to have alot of stock moving through the stores. At that pricepoint there is not alot of room for shareholder return, unfortunately.
4. **Lastly if we go back to the idea of doing a coop that is the sort of territory I would like to work with the smaller growers on. They can specialize is a very rare or premium piece and get premium prices for them, and have a go at reef-farming by making a greater return on a smaller quantity of product. If I were to get into that market it would probably shut out the majority of small growers, and that is not at all what I want. I want to work with anyone who wants to give reef-farming a go and this was one area where I thought that could happen very easily. The other being fish breeding, as I don't think I would have the time to put into that on a large scale.

I guess I should clarify. Steve Tyree has a fringe market that differs greatly from yours, and his facility would also reflect that. He has no need for a greenhouse.

I was thinking of a simpler one time "stud fee" deal with the coral "donators". They give you a premium piece worth $75.00 retail and you give them back two pieces of equal quality and size in six months or a year. You can value the corals they give or receive however you want. They may have paid $500.00 for the piece you give them, and you may only charge $20.00 for it when you sell the "litter". The donor/investor will receive two pieces of equal value ($500.00), with a much lower price tag ($20.00 ea.).

I'm not talking about $500.00 Acanthastrea that grows very slowly, just really nice variations of common stuff that's easy to culture. It's just as easy to propagate a neon green nephthya as it is to propagate a greenish one. You would have to pay big bucks from a cherry picker in LA to get really nice breeding colonies, or wait a very long time to get them by chance. Why not tap into the collections of many who have sweated it out to be the first in the door at their LFS, or the poor sucker who paid $200.00 to get it from a cherry picker.

I certainly don't fall for the hype of "rare and unusual corals", but I appreciate nice looking varieties. As an importer, I've seen some amazing corals go through my hands over the years. I wish I had the resources to take a cutting of each one and save them for a "seed bank".

Just as there are varieties of flowers that grow faster, hardier, or resist parasites, there are corals that do the same. Seed banks are commonplace in the plant industry to preserve species and varieties. Your stock will eventually amount to a valuable seed bank of sorts, in time.

Call it what you want, coral registry, co-op, seed bank; pooling resources and limiting capital investment assures you of better quality stock and a safety net if your mothers crash.

It's a common practice for hobbyists to give a friend a cutting of their favorite corals as a safety net in case of tank disaster. You would just be an extension of that same premise.

raaden
07/29/2007, 08:07 PM
Agreed re: Mr Tyrees operation, I just wanted to point out the differences between all of the different levels that you can do coral propogation. I am also definitely in favor of the seedbank concept and am hoping a couple of the other local "farmers" will help with that, especially with the vulnerability aspect of my operation. I am not sure if there are alot of people that would go for the other idea about being a donor, but I am certainly willing look into it if anyone is interested in giving it a go. It does seem like a pretty good idea for all involved. I get access to a nice coral and they would get 2 for the price of one basically.

I talked quite a bit about why I wanted to go skimmerless on the Business Plan thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=898883) but I will go over it here briefly. I want to do much more than just raise corals. I want to do some research and possibly look into some performance grants for some studies to help the reefs and the hobby. To do this I am trying to stay away from using mechanical means of maintaing the biological equilibrium, especially the destructive ones. Things like powerheads and skimmers do fantastic for maintaining a display tank, but they do this at the cost of destroying some of the biodiversity in the tank. For example zooplankton cannot make it through a powerhead or return pump alive, and skimmers remove almost as much beneficial life, as they do DOC's. UV filters kill everything that passes through them which is also something I am only going to use as a last resort. I have been toying around with ideas on biological equilibrium in my display tanks for a year or so and want to try these ideas out on something that the wife won't look at and say yuck. The biggest reason though is that I want to see what I can do with coral larvae and using those things drastically reduces the survival rate of them.

re: nitrogen export I am planning on using a few things, but mostly different types of macroaglae, and breaking the cycle down as many times as I can before it hits the water column.

AFA dark cycling a tank, I have done that before but it seems to take forever the few times I did it. It did well for not creating a nasty looking end product, but that is not really a consideration for the Reef Farm.

Next up: Update on cycling the vats...

raaden
07/29/2007, 09:07 PM
:eek1: UPDATE Time, and this ones good :eek1:

Before I get into the update let me say that I am very glad I dodged a huge weather bullet on Friday. We had some "mini tornadoes" that ripped through the greenhouse site and knocked down three trees and topped off another two. Luckily it was on the other side of the site and didn't do any damage to the greenhouse. I did however spend the better part of the weekend helping out the horse farmer and the guy behind him clean up alot of damage.

The last 10 days have been focused on the live rock shipment and cycling the tanks, and they have been eventful to say the least.
You can see the details here (http://reef-farm.net/cyclingvats.aspx) , here (http://reef-farm.net/cyclingvats2.aspx) , and here. (http://reef-farm.net/cyclingvats3.aspx)

Well I started Thursday with two vats of saltwater and a little over half a ton of live rock, and the rest, as they say, was history. I loaded both vats up with rock Thursday morning and all was going well. The rock was beautiful, and it seemed like such a shame to throw it into the vats knowing that within a few days it would be covered in muck, but it had to be done.
http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20002.jpg http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20003.jpg
Kaelini on the left and Pocillopora on the right.

The Poci rock was a bit gunky but I wanted to see what would happen if I used it as is so it all went into the vats. Poci into the epoxy vat and Kaelini into the polymer vat.
http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20012.jpg
The first piece of rock loaded... !!Milestone Complete!!

Two days later this was the mess that I had on my hands.
http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20021.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20050.jpg
Epoxy vat on top and Poly vat below

That wasn't even as bad as it got. The epoxy vat a day and a half after that pic turned into mixed phyto culture that most people would dream of.
http://reef-farm.net/images/shrunkShipment-Cycling%20001Shipment-Cycling%20051.jpg
The poly vat kept chugging along normally, but the epoxy one was getting worrisome. 450G in water changes later it still looked bad and I was starting to think it had crashed from all of the gunk. I was beginning to make plans to finish cycling the poly vat and then scrub out the epoxy vat and combine them to cycle the epoxy vat. Luckily the next day it cleared up almost 70% and looked good.
http://reef-farm.net/images/stocking%20the%20vats%20008-shrunk.jpg
http://reef-farm.net/images/stocking%20the%20vats%20023-shrunk.jpg

A couple days, and many parameter tests later the epoxy vat has completely cycled in what I am guessing was 5 days with no skimming, and 3*25% water changes. The poly tank is still working on Ammonia=>Nitrite, although the nitrite is going straight to Nitrate as I haven't been able to detect any Nitrite in the tanks.
I had a heart to heart talk with the cycling crew from my latest display tank and they told me they were up for the job so yesterday (in between breaks from cutting trees) I loaded them up and put them in the epoxy vat. They absolutely loved it, 4 green chromis, and 1 blue reef chromis with 600G all to themselves. I loaded them in all in the same corner which became their home base. The smallest of the green, and the blue kept home base safe all day while the other three greens scouted out the territory.

I went out today and they were all still there zipping all over that thing. I am not sure there are any happier chromis's in captivity. Things went so well I decided to get a couple of other surprises brewing, but that will have to wait for the next update. It has been a long weekend, but things are definitely looking good for the next week or so.

erics3000
07/29/2007, 09:15 PM
Thats what I thought your intentions were. mI wasnt sure you were going to put anything in it besides rock. I will reread this thread and the other one. Thanks for the info.

redox
07/30/2007, 03:55 AM
lookin good Brian. I bet its tough to leave in the morning and drive trough all that trafic to go to your 9-5. It gets worse believe me. Some days I am late for work due to my gh .....I hate to leave;) Have you thought about supplimental lights? when that summer sun goes away it gets alot less light. And...thats when you will really see the coraline take off. As a mater of fact you might want to shade the rock vats so the coraline will start to take off now. Ive gone trough my salt faster this year than previous years. Hows your supply going. If you want to use that brand again Id be happy to do the same thing again but... we can ship it to your place(shipping might be cheaper to you) and Ill come fetch this time:D

mr.wilson
07/30/2007, 05:31 AM
I think you'll find quite a few generous hobbyists that would be willing to donate, othewise unobtainable, frags.

One "farm" had a scam where they advertised that they were repopulating natural reefs in the wild, and received a flood of the finest broodstock in North America.

raaden
07/30/2007, 09:22 AM
The only other thing that I am hoping to get into the tank that is not there (other than massive amounts of coral babies ;) ) is the DSB. I have still had no luck getting definitive information from the sand supplier so I have decided to go on without it for now.

I still have quite a bit of salt left from that first batch. I have used about a quarter of it so far, but once I start bringing the other vats online it will go fast. I must say I like SG of that salt, it is pretty dead on with one box making 150G of 31 SG water. I have found like you said somewhere else, redox, that there is quite a bit of undisolved "stuff left" but I haven't yet tested for what that stuff is. If you need some and are in town let me know and you can have some of what I have left. I am trying to setup that deal I talked about a long time ago to try a different salt for the next two tanks to see what, if any, differences it will make. When I get ready to do it I will certainly let you know.

AFA leaving for work in the morning that is very tough..., but what is even tougher is going to bed at night. There have been more than a few nights, especially lately where I go out to the GH at 5-6 and the next thing I know it is 12:30 and I am not even tired. Then when I finally do get to bed I just lie there for an hour or so and try to come up with ideas or plans for the stuff that is going on. I hope that stuff about a sleep reservoir is true because I am dipping very deep into mine lately.

Mr. Wilson, it would be great if you are right about hobbyists providing frags. I have been thinking about it the last few days and I think I have a few really cool tie-ins that would give the hobbyist some more benefit than just getting a couple of extra frags back in return. I will post some more about it once I get the idea ironed out and start putting it into action.

Whaledriver
07/30/2007, 11:44 AM
One issue with frags is the quarantine problem.

If you are looking for the sand in bulk try looking into the cement suppliers. The Bahamas oolite sand is used for cement. Last place I looked it was being unloaded in New Jersey.

raaden
07/30/2007, 12:50 PM
I originally found 2 sources, but one has since told me that Bahamas white sand is off limits now, while the other has continually told me to get them a P.O. which I have also done continually.

I have contacted every place I can think of with no results so far, even directly with the big guys, and everyone has the same response they no longer have a supplier, and do not foresee a timeframe for restocking.

If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

RedSonja
07/30/2007, 03:41 PM
I agree that the issue with QT is the biggest problem with frags, I thought I posted something to that effect a few days ago but I don't see it, maybe I forgot to click submit reply. We were out of town and using a different ISP so, who knows.

However, every new coral I've gotten, whether from reefkeepers or retailers, has gone into QT so it's just a fact of life whenever you're acquiring broodstock.

-Sonja

Whaledriver
07/30/2007, 06:33 PM
Years ago the way I found it was to go the cement route. I think since the Bahamas sand is high in calcium its used to make high strength concrete. You really cant call it what we call it or you cant find it?!? I know that doesn't make sense but to them its just sand and they could care less where it comes from. I will look through my old notes and see if I can find it again.

kaptken
07/31/2007, 12:39 PM
Well have you tried this one?
http://aragonitesource.com/
It looks like the old Marcona Ocean Industries that used to mine and import Bahamas reef sand to Ft. Pierce, Fl.. They ran into some financial, legal or regulatory problems a few years ago and folded. but it looks like the same guys are back in business with a new company. All my searches for aragonite keep popping this one up. Like yours too, I'm sure.

Is this the one not responding?

mr.wilson
07/31/2007, 01:16 PM
Would you consider using crushed oyster shell? The stuff I get up here comes from Alabama.

raaden
07/31/2007, 03:55 PM
I tried a few of the local cement places and they also said they were trying get it but have had no luck. Apparently there are a few cement applications that work much better when a ca sand is used.

KaptKen, unfortunately that is the top supplier that won't return my guys phone call. He said that he had the guy but has not heard from him in quite a while and doesn't think it is going to happen.

Crushed oyster shell is a bit to fine for what I need it for but I am keeping that in my pocket for a test tank just to see what happens. Most of the bag is pure dust and alot of the bag is big shards. I have used it for making rock before and it works great for that but as a substrate I am not so sure. If my guy can't get ahold of it then I might put it into the poly tank to see what happens. The best part is that I can get it local for really cheep... cheep; because alot of the poultry farmers need it for chicken feed, and it is pretty close to the same stuff. The only fear is that it is not pure and I don't know what the contaminants are.

mr.wilson
07/31/2007, 04:20 PM
I agree; there is unknown incidental catch in crushed oyster shell. Some claim it can leach phosphates, but it depends on where and how it is collected. I have tested cement made with it and found no measurable Phosphates.

Oyster shell has the added benefit of water purification properties due to its' pore matrix. It also acts as a molecular absorbent of phosphate and silicates.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2002/11/15/ns_brbrteens021115.html#skip300x250

Whaledriver
07/31/2007, 10:16 PM
Another angle for the sand is sand blasting media.

raaden
08/01/2007, 10:07 AM
Mr. Wilson... From what I was reading a while ago the worst potential contaminant of Oyster shells is lead contamination. Phosphates and silicates are also common but those can be mitigated in the tank. This supposedly is not an issue for fossilized calcium carbonate for some reason.

IIRC I looked into the blasting media, but it was either too expensive or was distributed with Baking soda and I am not sure that would work for a substrate.

The angle I am working now is with composites companies. I know that calcitic CaCO3 is used as a filler for all sorts of composites and polymers such as PVC and many others. I know they are getting it from somewhere but most of the people I have talked with are not interested in allowing me to purchase from them and their suppliers are mostly in India and China and I really don't want to go down that road.

I did find a domestic supplier of titrated CaCO3 but I am not sure what the ramifications of that are and if it would have any negative effects in the short or long term.

Any ideas if it could be an issue ??

mr.wilson
08/01/2007, 10:49 AM
I guess the quotas and regulations (loopholes) are getting tighter these days. CaribbSea got into a little trouble earlier this year with their Bahama Rock.

It's not a complete, or efficient buffer (soluble at 7.8 PH), but calcite (crushed coral) is still an option. It depends on your needs. If you're using chemical supplements, you don't need substrate buffering. Calcite will suffice as a media for bacteria and benthic invertebrates though.

raaden
08/01/2007, 11:04 AM
crushed coral would work, but is also pretty expensive. My biggest concern with crushed corals is the large voids it creates and there were some studies done (I think on RC somewhere) about grain size and DSB leaching and IIRC the results were not real good for CC.

BTW Calcium carbonate, CaCO 3 , is one of the most common compounds on Earth , making up about 7% of Earth's crust.

If this is true why is it so darn hard to get this stuff :(

mr.wilson
08/02/2007, 12:52 AM
We have calcite play sand at our home Depots up here in Canada. It's packaged by a company called Bomix. It's very fine.

I'm sure they have bulk pricing.

What do you mean by "DSB leaching"?

http://maskcanada.org/bomix_southdown/

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=464835&highlight=bomix

raaden
08/02/2007, 11:21 AM
As I write this I am hot on the trail of some calcium sand. It is calcitic CaCO3 so it is not going to be as good as Oolitic Aragonite, but sometimes you take what you get. The only real thing that is lost is the buffering, but as Mr. Wilson referred that can be handled with supplements. Also got another shipment in of some pretty stuff. Will update when I have some spare time.

AFA the DSB Leaching I remember an article, and I thought it was in ReefKeeping Magazine but I can't find it there, where they were comparing different sizes, depths, and compositions, of materials used for DSB's and while I don't remember it all the best was a sugar fine 6" deep calcium sandbed, and the worst was a 2" deep (unvacuumed) crushed coral bed. There were lots in between but the jist of the article was that most dsbs will begin to "leak" back into the aquarium if the aerobic/anaerobic situation isn't maintained correctly. This could be due to water flow, insufficient sand stirring, and many other things, but what it will begin to do is leach what it was collecting back into the water column. Once you correct the situation it will collect it all back, but in a limited water column that is not going to be quick enough. It also talked about the most effective ways to stir the sandbed and if replacement is needed a best way to do that as well.

The strange thing that I remember thinking while reading the article is that for a prop tank a limited amount of leaching would be a good thing if you could maintain the rate at which the leaching occurrs.

I will keep looking for the article in my "spare" time, but if anyone finds it I would love to get a link...

raaden
08/02/2007, 11:30 AM
Mr. Wilson... Looking into that Bomix sand, they no longer have a listing in their products for that sand. The page ref'd in the article is blank and when you look through the sands the only white sand they have is Residential Filter sand which says it crushed quartz. That is about what I am finding as well... in most places :lol2:, although I will find it somewhere.

Whaledriver
08/02/2007, 12:15 PM
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AA191

This is a article about soil modification. This is probably the best way to buy sand in bulk and not let them know its for aquarium use. There might be someone at U of Florida that could help.
Again mention that you are a "farmer" and don't mention aquariums.

Whaledriver
08/02/2007, 12:25 PM
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/pasture/lime.html

A good artical about lime aka calcium carbonate for ag industry. Links to South Carolina lime laws.

http://fscs.clemson.edu/Insp2.gif You should call one of these guys and they should connect you to someone!?

mr.wilson
08/02/2007, 10:04 PM
I still see Bomix Play Sand on the retail shelves. As a matter of fact, they have red, yellow, blue and green as well.

It's a seasonal item that falls outside of their regular product line.

You should call them for more info. They may refer you to a dealer that currently has it in the US.

This RC thread offers one stop shopping for sand bed research papers and articles. It's one subject that requires a little more than just empirical data and anecdotal evidence.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

One issue you will have with your set-up is maintaining the sand bed with layers of rock, algae, and corals. The rock will trap detritus and make it difficult to remove. The algae will generate quite a bit of detritus, as will the upper mother colonies and cuttings. You may also have to contend with nightly drops in PH, as the algae and zooxanthellae will both produce a significant amount of Co2 at night during respiration. A reverse photoperiod for the algae culture isn't an option with your all in one system.

You should find out from the other GH growers if they experience nighttime PH drops. Photosynthesis is obviously much more significant in a greenhouse environment, than it is with our home aquarium conditions.

raaden
08/06/2007, 09:34 AM
Quick update on the CA sand before I start giving some first observations on the operation so far.

I have found the sand and unsurprisingly it is available just about anywhere large scale animal farming is done. I found this out by a huge chain of talking with chemical suppliers who sent me down a line where I finally found a plant that distributes it by the bag and it is not even 3 hours away. Unfortunately it is calcitic (vs. oolitic), and it is calcite (vs. aragonite) so like Mr. Wilson said earlier I will not get any buffering benefits, but I will be dosing anyway so that shouldn't be an issue. My primary concerns were nitrogen cycling (to keep nitrates up and ammonia low) and to help with benthic zoo populations. It should work great for that.

FYI if anyone needs more info let me know I have found three regional suppliers, but from them you can find even more. Most places will tell you that you are too far away for them to supply to you and will recommend someone closer. The only issue is that it seems to only come from about 5 places in the country and you will end up paying for shipping twice if you are too far away. Oh and one other thing, this is for very large orders only. They won't help you with a few bags (<50 bags). Everyone I talked to needed a minimum order of a pallet (64 - 50# bags).

The articles ref'd above are very good and if you are looking for info on this part of the equation they are a great place to start, thanx WD and Mr.W.

BallaBooyeaH
08/07/2007, 02:12 AM
Not wanting to hijack this thread but if anyone has feedback for starting a venture in a existing GH and can shed some light on my idea's - Please check out a new thread I have started.

Post is here.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1179420

Raaden, You out of all the threads I have followed seem to be making the most progress. Oh what can be done when you are not married with kids....

Look great and keeps inspiring me to start

raaden
08/07/2007, 06:13 PM
Balla,

Oh, but I am married with Kid, and one thing I forgot to put into the business plan was the expenses of sending the wife and daughter to the mall and movies all the time so that I can get stuff done in the GH :D. That has been very expensive and completely unexpected.

kaptken
08/08/2007, 09:57 PM
Were you thinking of these two articles by Rob Toonen testing various types of sand beds for denitrating efectivness?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

and part two

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature

or perhaps these older articles on plenums.

http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part1.htm

and

http://www.seabay.org/art_plenums_part2.htm

I have used many plenums and have had some good luck with them. But like everything in this hobby, opinions vary.

raaden
08/09/2007, 07:26 AM
KaptKen,

Nice find... I believe those are the articles (Toonen et al)I was referring to (especially the later section of the second part of it). I reread it again this morning and it has me thinking some more about some things I might want to do with the sand bed (always a dangerouse proposition).

--All,

I do have an update coming, but we have been getting record heat and humidity here and it has been all I can do to try and keep the few inhabitants I have happy. Once things cool off (hopefully in the next day or so) I will have some pretty interesting finds.

mr.wilson
08/09/2007, 10:11 AM
Toonen is a little less cocky in the second article, In the first one, he boldly states in his summary the you need a BS detector to guard you against any findings that vary from his; while the second article is peppered with admissions that his study was conducted over a relatively short period of time (118 days), that mortalities affected results, and there were too many variables to make concrete findings of some aspects. These shortcomings are of no fault of his own, as it's a very difficult experiment to govern the controls of.

The first article made bold conclusions, while the second one focused much of the attention on defending the accuracy of the first. Much of the attention was given to the similarities of the results of the chemically dosed treatments and the live animal treatments.

It's hard to measure the value of anecdotal evidence and its' source. His scientific approach is welcomed even with the studies limitations and the chemical evaluation of the test water for each treatment are indisputable. Obviously, a fine sediment has a higher dissolution rate than a larger one, resulting in higher PH, calcium, and carbonate values; however, the relatively short duration of the experiment and lack of controls for the live animal treatments (such as, feeding varying amounts to each tank, mortality, and ranging biodiversity and condition of animals) will skew these results.

It takes at least 21 days for bio-films (bacterial slime) to start to coat sediments and rock. Bio-films grow one layer upon another, with a sloughing-off as the layers get too thick or with wash-off (physical damage caused in collection, and by sediment infauna). As one granule is crashing, another is flourishing, in a constant cycle. In addition to this, sediments can become calcified at the surface and further lose solubility. Sedimentation (detrital build-up) is another process that takes a few months to have an impact on the system. Eighty percent of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria develop on detritus, and not directly on sediments, rock and other surfaces. I don't think a 118 day study is a fair representation of sediment conditions experienced with a well established reef tank or mariculture facility. Anyone with a DSB will tell you it took many months to culture enough pseudomonas (denitrifying bacteria) to reduce nitrate to 0.

Sediment infauna have a similar growth rate. The sediments in Toonens study were inoculated with benthic invertebrates (unspecified "sediment infauna") that we will assume were worms (fan, bristle etc.) and zooplankton (copepods, mysids etc.). I know from my observations of remote plenum-like "benthic zones", it takes six months to a year to fully populate them. This is by no means proof that plenums serve any benefit, but it demonstrates that they need sufficient time before any judgments can be made of their merit.

There were a few mortalities during his study. There were 2.91 (on average) unidentified animals (urchins, snails, crabs, or puffers) that died in shallow sediment tanks, while only 1.47 (on average) died in deeper sediment tanks. I'm not a scientist or statistician, but I have quite a bit of experience in animal husbandry, and feel it's an unfair conclusion that shallow sediments cause increased mortality based on those numbers, yet he makes this very claim in the article.

The water quality was very close within all of the tanks, by his own findings, so the mortality could not be attributed to these parameters. This leaves only pathogens as the causative agents. Perhaps an experiment testing the hypothesis of sediment depth fostering the proliferation of pathogens could yield concrete findings, but there were far too many unavoidable variables in his study to draw those conclusions. I'm certainly not going to add 2.5" of sand to my 1" substrate in the hopes of lowering mortalities, as nice as that would be.

As Raaden has mentioned, he will be chemically dosing for calcium, carbonate, and magnesium supplementation, so dissolution rates and composition comparisons of calcite vs. aragonite are moot. I believe Dick Perrin at Tropicorium uses aragonite exclusively to maintain calcium and alkalinity, but I'm not sure how he achieves this, as every reef aquarium I've experienced requires supplementation of some sort to meet NSW (natural sea water) levels.

A deep sand bed (>5") will provide anoxic conditions (hydrogen sulfide build-up) whereby localized acidity (lower PH), caused by bacterial byproducts, will dissolve aragonite or calcite more readily. Aragonite starts to dissolve at a PH of <8.4, while calcite must be <7.8 PH before it starts to dissolve. A PH of <7.8 is easily achieved in a deep sand bed, especially at night when carbon fixing (photosynthesis) ceases and respiration produces Co2 (carbonic acid). The more photosynthetic activity during the day (oxygen production), the more respiratory Co2 production you will get at night, unless you have a reverse photoperiod refugium to balance the equation. Even in the best of conditions, testing and supplementation is still necessary.

The aspect of removing, or at least reducing, nitrate still remains for Raadens application. Toonens study, despite its' limitations, seems to indicate that a 9mm (3.5") coarse sand bed is basically as effective as a fine sand bed of equal depth, or a shallow one for that matter. This is comforting information, considering 3.5" is nowhere near the common standard of a "deep sand bed" of >5", and in many cases, >12". He was able to get nitrate levels close to 0 in all of the live animal treatments in a 90 day period, which is a feat in and of itself, not to mention this was accomplished without any means of nutrient export, chemical, or mechanical filtration. Nitrate started to climb after that point, which may be due to detrital build-up, as that's about how long one would expect it to take.

The benefit of a cheap substrate (calcite for example) is that it can be periodically replaced to export bound silicates and phosphates. This practice will not only act as a passive method of export, it also doubles as a means of producing aquacultured live sand. If you can develop a market for your "old" cultured sand, it may warrant paying the extra money for a more desirable media, namely aragonite. In other words, get your customers to pay for your nitrate reduction and phosphate absorption media. If you offered a coarse substrate with coraline algae and proven nitrate reduction capabilities, you would have an instant demand for your product. Even a reef rubble substrate (1" - 2" dia.) could be introduced. You just need to come up with the slick titles like Samoan Pink or Tahiti Treat.:)

I'll let you use your BS detectors to evaluate my comments. :)

raaden
08/13/2007, 04:33 PM
Mr. Wilson, very nice summary of the article. Your reflections on the DSB are exactly what I was thinking about. If I can get a depth of 6" I might start to get some benefit from the Calcite. Somehow I never thought it got that acidic on the bottom of a DSB, either way I will still be dosing just in case.

AFA the exporting of the sand, one thing I have been contemplating is changing a portion of the sand bed occasionally to use as the sand medium for making the rockwork. The more I read about oyster shell the more leary I am of using it in large quantities in the vats. I am not sure if there is a market for live sand, but I guess I could make it available and see what happens. I still haven't had any response from the contacts for Aragonite so I have decided to go with the calcite for the substrate and I think it will work fine. I still have to try to get ahold of WhaleDrivers (I think it was him) suggestion for the miami rubble. I think that would work out nicely as you mentioned for putting a rubble layer on top of the sand. That way it would act as a landing zone for small fraglets that always seem to get lost from their homes.

P.s. I am going to claim the Tahitian Treat if noone else does :D

Whaledriver
08/13/2007, 05:35 PM
MARCONA OCEAN INDUSTRIES LTD
904-646-3595
4018 Retford Dr
Jacksonville, FL 32225

These are the guys mineingthe sand in the Bahamas. You should be able to buy the sand in 5 ton bags that can be trucked to your site. Mention that its for agriculture use. Don't mention anything about aquariums! You might do some research with sand dealers in the area before you try to get it from them. The others in the area should give you the info you need to make a simple purchase. Someone local must be using it for cement, drainage, pavers or soil ph adjustment

raaden
08/13/2007, 05:36 PM
Well it is update time again, unfortunately there aren't any pics for this one. I have to either get a better camera (DSLR) or figure out better ways to use the one I have because I have taken a ton of pictures but none of them seem to come out underwater. You will just have to take my word on this one. :strange:

I will hit the highlights (or high temps as the case was) first and then pickup from the previous update. Last week was quite a tough one in the greenhouse, the weather was absolutely ridiculous around here, and by ridiculous I mean 4 straight days of record high temps. What started out as a forecast for a record day turned into almost a week of unbearable temps reaching a peak on Thursday of 104 with 60% humidity, and the other three days were all over 100 with 40-60% humidity each. The ambient temps in the GH reached 112 and I must have drank 3-4 gallons of liquid each day without going to the bathroom once. I am happy to say that the farm made it through incredibly well considering the expectations. When looking at the weather, I kept thinking "this stuff can't take another day of this", but everyday at the end of the day most everything was still there sweating it out with me. I have definitely identified some Reef-Farm superstars, and some others that may not be suited quite so well.

The last update ended with the first responders being sent in to put a little life into the tank. They did just fine and after another couple of days the ph went down to 8.3 so it was time to start stocking. I started with just a few frags that I had been keeping in my 'fuge in preparation for this. The initial set of frags were a few different kind of zo's, some xenia, a few rics, a spare caulastrea, and a giant leather that since I have gotten it has never really filled out so i was hoping that the greenhouse might change that.

I built some stands for the eggcrate out of pvc pipe, much like what Steven Pro did with his setup. Since mine were going to have to hold 2.5 sheets of eggcrate I made them a bit more permanent with legs and a crossmember, and so far they are holding up quite well. It looks like I will get about 5 sheets of eggcrate into each vat leaving some cracks inbetween the sheets for the fish to get into. That put the working space at ~40sf per vat or about 400sf for the facility which is just a touch lower than I had envisioned, but should be more than enough.

The initial stock went in 8 days before the heat wave started and most of it was looking good. The biggest thing I noticed right away was that the xenia, zo's and rics were definitely showing signs of photoinhibition, but I expected this. I decided to go without shadecloth this summer partially because I figured it would be so close to the end of the season by the time I got any stock in, and also because shadecloth installation and removal on the greenhouse is almost a day long job for three people and I didn't want to risk any mishaps with the plastic. This way I can also do some looking into the top end of what the worst case scenarios are for heat, light and other parameters.

The rics fared the worst, and never really acclimated well to the vats. They almost all melted or came off the baserock and took a dive into the rockwork below. The ones that survived never really opened up, and I am guessing they are just surviving for now.
The xenia almost all survived but didn't open up much except for first thing in the morning, and late in the evening, but when they do they pulse the whole time and otherwise seemed to be looking pretty good. They have definitely changed physically as the bases on all of them have gotten noticably thicker and the stalks seem to all be coming off directly straight up.
The zo's all seemed to be doing very well considering they don't open up much either. The frags all stayed pretty much closed, but did occasionally open up during the day. The ones on the edge of the baserock pointing to the side or coming out from under the rock open up much more and stay open almost all day which leads me to believe that the top facing polyps are just over exposed.

The leather on the other hand was absolutely happy as can be. within a day of going to the greenhouse it started to fill out well, and the edges that always drooped down started curling up and lobes that I never even saw started pushing out from the bottom rim. This was just your run of the mill Leather (I think it is a fiji finger leather) that was a light brown and looked decent. Now it looks absolutely great. It has started to take on a more fleshy/red color and it getting lumpy all over. It has expanded in size about 50% since going into the greenhouse and hasn't shown any signs of photoinhibition at all.

Philip Root
08/13/2007, 05:51 PM
I decided to go without shadecloth this summer partially because I figured it would be so close to the end of the season by the time I got any stock in, and also because shadecloth installation and removal on the greenhouse is almost a day long job for three people and I didn't want to risk any mishaps with the plastic

What type, and how are you using your shade cloth? I put mine on and off by myself and it takes 20 mins at the most.

As far as the temps go, we are in our 10th day of over 100, We have never had this type of heat. I did have to mod my sps tank to run cooler. I made a trey to put on the intake of my fan that has mag flake in it. The mag flake will dry the air and cool the water very well. You could use CaCl if you did not have mag flake. Befor I used the mag flake I was runing about 80.9. After the magflake 78.3.

Philip

mr.wilson
08/13/2007, 06:11 PM
You mentioned that the GH reached 112 F, but how high did the water in the vats actually get?

Did you add extra shade, air circulation, or air lifts to combat this heat wave?

Have you looked into a water storage container that can be buried into the ground? A series of 50 gallon drums would work just as well and cost less. They would be shielded from direct sunlight and insulated from the greenhouse effect going on above them. It's a passive form of geothermal cooling, but may come in handy in case of emergency. The only problem I can see, is you may need a 10 to 1 ratio of stored (cool) water to keep up with the demand.

You should take a look at Peter Wilkens books to see the temperature swings he measured in shallow reef flats. He also provides a list of species that are exposed to air at low tide, including some leathers.

Deep water species like caulastrea and some ricordea species (particularly Yuma's) haven't adapted to temp swings in their evolution.

Anything that bleaches should bounce back quicker in a GH, than it would in a home aquarium, but the sun can be relentless.

raaden
08/13/2007, 06:20 PM
WD, have you tried to get ahold of them. The last thing I heard about Marcona was that they sold out to another company that makes tanker ships or something like that. The guys that didn't go with them started up AragoniteSource LLC and are the ones that I haven't had luck getting return phone calls from. I will try to get in touch with them tomorrow and see what happens. I also have a bunch of other numbers for Marcona in Ga, SC and somewhere down south in Florida but all said they were no longer bringing in the product. I will try that number though as I don't remember anything from Jacksonville in the list

Philip,
Yikes!!!! I don't think my setup could make it like that. How is the outside humidity? That was the worst part here, the days when it reached 100's but the humidity was low were not bad and temps in the GH stayed in the upper 80's, but when the humidity came in everything got hot. The other part that made a huge difference was that the hottest days there were no clouds in the sky so the sunlight was drowning the greenhouse with heat. From what I have seen so far it is not the outside temps that do the worst it is humidity and cloud cover. When the humidity stays under 50% and there is some cloud cover it is always cooler inside the GH than outside. Another reason why I need shadecloth :)
Right now I am not using shadecloth, but I am going to use the blue cloth that you are going to use next summer. I wanted to use a white shadecloth but I have heard bad stuff about its ability to last a whole season. We have mag flake here but it would be difficult to use with the evap cooler taking up the whole wall of air inlet. Overall I am pretty happy if that is the worst that we run into. The next part of the update will explain it more, but everything did pretty well.

Also what did you change around on the sps and what are your tank temps like with the heat.

raaden
08/13/2007, 06:28 PM
Mr. Wilson,

Do you have a name on that book, I would love to take a look at it. I am currently trying to get my thoughts together on temps in the vats, but from what I am seeing the thoughts that temps must stay constant at xx.x degrees don't seem to apply to many different species, while it completley applies to others. I will elaborate more later, but I have definitely seen a floor and ceiling to what is tolerable (and they are very hard limits), but nothing has seemed to mind the temp shifts at all... and they have been extreme.

It would seem that shallow water species would undergo extreme temp shifts from low to high tide, and day to night. Deeper species probably not so much as there is much more insulating water, but I still have to think that there is some fluctuation in the water temps even at 20-30 ft. I know from surfing that some undercurrents are atleast 15 degrees cooler than the surrounding water.

Anyway this is something that I am definitely going to do some research on and hopefully come up with some useful results.

Philip Root
08/13/2007, 06:32 PM
The changes I made was the magflake. Just on the the fan that is blowning air on the tank did I use the magflake. I use some squirrel cage fans that pull air from the side to cool each tank. so the side as mag in it. The air is very dry and the air that comes off the tank is really cool.

The Humidity is all over the place. In the am it may be as high as 80% but as the day gose on it starts down. to around 40%-50%.

raaden
08/13/2007, 06:45 PM
Ah-ha that is a really good idea... I'm not sure about drawing the air in from the outside, but the tray for the outlet of the fan is a great idea. Are the fans pulling air through the plastic or do you have a large manifold running from somewhere. I just don't think I would like putting a bunch of holes in the plastic. The inflator fan for the plastic does this, but...

since I am only a mile or so from a huge lake our humidity actually gets worse as the day goes on (or in reality it just doesn't go any lower), so when the lake gets hot after a few days of sun and heat the humidity here just keeps going up.

mr.wilson
08/13/2007, 07:06 PM
It's a two book set, but the info you want is in "Invertebrates, Tube-, Soft- and Branching Corals", by Peter Wilkens & Johannes Birkholz. I would get the set if you can, as their both chalk full of information and now out of print.

If your German is good you can get the original "Niedere Tiere, Rohren-, Leder- und Hornkorallen" (damn that rolls off the tongue smooth :)).

It was the first book in the hobby to give a glance at the natural environment of the stuff we keep. Once you get a look at the landscape, it's much easier to paint the picture.

In it he describes how Sarcophyton Trocheliophorum experience a temperature range from 75 F to 104 F in just a few hours. He goes on to describe the PH shift (8.35 - 8.45), salinity drops to 1.016 after rainfall, redox values between 135 mv & 192 mv, and lux readings of 2,800 in the morning, 14,000 at 11:00 a.m., and 17,000 to 22,000 with occasional 26,000 lux peaks according to cloud cover between noon and 2 p.m.. He reports that the lux values drop to 9,000 and 7,500 at 6:00 p.m..

mr.wilson
08/13/2007, 07:10 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10546173#post10546173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Philip Root
The changes I made was the magflake. Just on the the fan that is blowning air on the tank did I use the magflake. I use some squirrel cage fans that pull air from the side to cool each tank. so the side as mag in it. The air is very dry and the air that comes off the tank is really cool.

The Humidity is all over the place. In the am it may be as high as 80% but as the day gose on it starts down. to around 40%-50%.

Can you regenerate (dry out) the mag flake? Can you tell when it is spent?

How does it perform compared to silica gel or other desiccants?

Philip Root
08/13/2007, 07:21 PM
The air dose not come from outside, just the side of the fan. ( not from behide like most fans)

Magflake turns to water. ( i currently collect it in a bucket) I don't know if you can dry it out? I personaly think it dose better than most desiccants, but has to be refilled.

raaden
08/13/2007, 07:32 PM
Unless I can get my wife to read the books to me I will have to go the English route. Thanx for the info I will put them at the top of my Amazon list.

I am not sure what makes up MagFlake or if it is different than others of it's type but the reaction is chemical. If memory serves it strips the Hydroxide out of the latent moisture and breaks down in some way. I have seen it work great, but I don't think you can regen it as what is left is not the same stuff as before. I am pretty sure if you dry it out it will be different salts. The other thing about it that is good is that it produces much less heat to do the job than other dessicants.

I might have to try it if we get another week of oven temps.

raaden
08/13/2007, 07:36 PM
With the frags all seeming do ok with the vat conditions (except the light), I decided to gets some initial broodstock and see what would work in the greenhouse. I mostly looked for things that were more hearty to start with and will get into the prettier things after the vats have had some time reach an equilibrium.

The shopping list was as follows: Purple Montipora (this sort of qualifies as pretty and I didn't intend to get anything like this, but when you find a deal on this guy you have to take it ;) ), some assorted green mushrooms (rics and discs), 4 more types of polyps (mostly zo's but one nice sized bunch of palys as well), A goni that someone was trying to get rid of, some cespitularia, a chunk of GSP, Neon mumps leather (I only got this since the other leather was doing so well), a few acros, a bunch of feather dusters, and a gold crocea (just to see what a clam would say). Had I known that we were going to get a tradewind direct from Hades I would have held off but Monday was supposed to be warm (92), and Tuesday was supposed to be the only really hot day (101) before it cooled off, so I got the stuff to be delivered the previous Friday so it would have some time to acclimate before the hot day came.

I was already planning a quasi heatexchanger that was fed from the water going to the evap wall, and thought that might help out some. I was also planning a window fan blowing across the top of the vat so that I could use whatever evpaporation I could get, but if it only lasted one day I could even just load the tank up with ice instead of makeup water that day and keep it cool. Great ideas in principle but when Mother Nature wants to test your limits, principles don't always hold up. Anyway I got the stuff in and most of it looked pretty good, but the goni and one acro just didn't look too good at all. In hindsight I should have put the goni into the display tank for a few weeks, but I thought maybe the sunlight might help it.

I took most of the day acclimating the stock with 50-50 makeup water and vatwater, since I still wasn't too confident that the tests were completely accurate. By the end of the day everything was in the vats and the only other thing that wasn't looking so good was the rock of rics. The clam surprised me and once I put him into his sandbox he popped right open and started feeding. When he first opened up his mantle was a slight greenish brown, and the rest of him was a light orange, not looking great but he did look healthy and was open so I figured it was doing alright. I also decided to take a kenya tree frag out there that evening since it was doing really well in the fragtank and I wanted to see how it would react.

Saturday should have been a wake up call as it was much warmer than expected. It reached the mid 90's and the humidity was pretty bad. It was by far the hottest day in the greenhouse since the fans were installed. I hadn't yet put the fan on the tanks or installed the heat sink, even still, surprisingly, the tanks were doing pretty well. That morning they were about 76 when I got out to check them and at 530 they were still only about 82. This really surprised me, I knew that 600G of water would make for good insulation but I never expected to only get that little of a temp change. That evening I looked at the weather and what started out as a '1 day temporary heat wave' had now turned into two days of near record temps. I was starting to get a little worried so I installed the heat sink, and mounted the fan. I really didn't know what to expect from the coming heat.

Monday temps reached 100, luckily the humidity wasn't bad, and Sunday night was cool so the tanks started cooler than they had been. The evap did a great job at keeping the gh cool and the fans were working on the tank. I don't think the heat sink is doing much, the run through the tank is a bit too short to really get any temp conversion. The inlet temp was running about 62, but the outlet temp was only 2 degrees cooler so there wasn't much heat being absorbed. It will stay in there for now but I don't think I will use it for any of the other tanks. The tank temps reached 83 at their peak, but nothing seemed any more stressed than it already was, although the rics were not doing well, the goni still hadn't shown any tissue, and the one acro was just about gone. The zo's and leathers were looking fine, although the green mumps had a bit of mucus collecting on it in some places where the green was coming back. The monti had a bit of recession on the edges, but the purple color was looking better than when I got it. The clam was still... well, happy as a clam :D (sorry, you knew it was coming at some point though). All in all the first day of furnace exposure went pretty well.

raaden
08/13/2007, 08:36 PM
Monday even comes and goes and things went pretty well. I was relieved to know that the vats wouldn't become heat sinks and boil in the sun, and the evap cooler was doing a phenomenal job of keeping the greenhouse cool. It was noticably cooler in the greenhouse than it was outside (88 vs. 100). Before I went to bed I looked at the weather to see what it looked like as the week was going on and it wasn't looking good. They were now forecasting temps to stay above 100 for the rest of the week and finally cool down Friday evening. Tuesday wasn't going to be quite as hot as expected (only 101 instead of 103) but Thursday was going to be a scorcher with soupy humidity.

I was a bit worried, as I had just loaded up some pretty nice stuff, and there was no way I could get it all into my display tanks since they were already overfull of frags. I decided to ride it out, take lots of notes and if nothing else make a learning experience out of it. Monday night it again cooled off a bit which did a great job of taking the heat out of the water, and Tuesday morning the tanks were about 77degrees. I put a few bags of ice in the freezer just in case, and started watching. By the afternoon you could tell that the humidity was higher since the evap cooler was not doing quite as much to cool off the air as it was the day before.

Still it only reached 91 in the Greenhouse and the tanks only got to just under 84. The roll call was pretty much the same with one exception another acro was not looking good. It started getting lighter in color on Monday but I thought it was starting to color up (it started brown... but don't they all ;) ). By tuesday night you could tell there was no color coming it was just receding. The strange thing was that the tips still had polyps out but the base was not looking good. The goni was receding a bit as well, but the other areas were looking nice and it was starting to look more fleshy.

It didn't cool down nearly as much Tuesday night and the tank temps were 79 to start the day on Wendesday. I knew that was going to be trouble. I put a bag of ice in Wednesday morning and it did absolutely nothing to the temp. 10 minutes after the ice melted the tank had changed 3/10ths of a degree... Now I was worried. It was now starting to dawn on me how much heat was really stored in 600G of water. I threw every bottle of liquid I could into the freezer and tried to think of other things I could do to cool the tanks. I even contemplated going to the LFS and buying a ridiculously overpriced chiller, but then I went back to the research angle and decided the information might be just as valuable. I decided I was going to let the temps go up but control them with whatever I could get that was frozen and just see what happens.

Granted it is not a scientific study, but it might just be some good information that I can use later. I did nothing for most of the morning, just monitored the temps to see how they rose. By 1 pm the temps were up to 83, but nothing seemed to be reacting to it. At just over 84 the zo's were all closed up, even the bottom ones in the shade of the rest. The xenia had completely closed up tight (or atleast it seemed tighter than before). I decided to try and cool it down a bit and loaded it up with a rubbermaid container full of ice on the opposite end of the vat from the corals. This was more than 60# of ice and it melted in about 25 mins, but it did bring the temps back down to just under 83.

Nothing really changed as the tank cooled down, but it went back up again. This time it reached 84 again as the sun was just starting to hit the treeline so I didn't bother to try to cool it down as it would start to cool off on its own soon. That night it was warmer than the one before and the exhaust fans didn't shut off all night... (or were alteast on at 6 am which hadn't happened before) they are set to shut off once the GH reaches 74 and I am not sure it ever made it there even though the evap cooler was dry (had been off for a while) and it turns off the water supply at 77. Most everything was still doing alright and as things cooled off and the sun went down the xenia and zo's came out again and seemed fine. The one acro was already bare and the second was not far behind. It was pretty evident it was not doing well. The goni still had not shown any tissue, and now the Kenya tree was completely shriveled up down to a tiny stump. I am not sure when this happened as I put it in a shady corner and forgot to check on it throughout the day. It never really came back either once the sun went down and the temps cooled off a bit. The rics were on their way out but they never really looked good to start with so I am not sure what was the cause there. The discs looked about the same although some of them came off their rocks and were lost into the rockwork. Who knows maybe in a few weeks they will attach and start to grow... Sweet bonus frags!!! But the leathers and the clam were still doing absolutely fantastic. The green mumps was starting to show more and more green and getting more and more bumpy.


Thursday morning the tank temps were 79 at 6 am and all I can think about is that it was going to get ugly. Weather was expected to be the worst yet with 104 temps and 65% humidity. I couldn't even imagine what was going to go on in the Greenhouse. I had alread seen that 84 seemed to be the point where bad things were happening atleast for some stuff, and I wasn't sure that I could keep it below 84 with the vats starting at 79. I put another 60#+ of ice in and that got it down under 78 but it would be shortlived. By 11 am the temps in the greenhouse itself were getting bad as it was already 100 outside, and inside it was getting into the upper 90's. This was the first time since the cooler was installed that this was happening. Humidity was a solid 65 based on the sweat that was pouring down me constantly, and it seemed that I had reached the saturation point of the evap cooler. Water temps were already 82.5 and there wasn't a cloud in the sky to shade us either. I had frozen up a few bottles with water and some milk jugs just in case I needed them, and I put one last tub of ice into the vats. By 1pm it was 101 outside and every bit of 105 inside. The vats were very near the 84 point and I decided to see what was going to happen if it went past there. I had about another 60# of ice between all of the frozen bottles and the couple of bags I still had left, and decided unless everything started to look bad I was going to use that to cool things down once the sun broke the trees.

The last few days the temps were peaking out at about 4 pm and the sun hits the trees sometime after 6 so I decided I would save the last of the ice for 530'ish. It was supposed to cool off on Friday and there was rain in the forecast so I just hoped I could get through this day.

kaptken
08/13/2007, 09:17 PM
Hey Raaden.
If i recall your GH construction pictures, you have a pretty large open field area next to the GH, why not do a passive geo thermal cooling system. if you have access to a backhoe or a friend with a trencher , why not just bury a thousand feet of pvc tubing about 6 feet down, coiled or length wise in trenches for a heat sink. I think the rule of thumb for burried tubing for geothermal heat pumps is about 600 feet of 1 inch tubing for each ton of chilling capacity. but since you are not having extreme heating you may not need that much for the hot months. just enough to cool it down a few degrees to keep the system below a max of 82.

then you just need a heat exhanger for the ground loop to cool the sump salt water. a Quiet One 4000 pump, 50 watts, 1000 gph, might do the trick for circulation thru the ground loop. or something like that. for safety of leaks, you could even use normal salt water for the ground loop. then no chance of diluting the tanks by a leak. and it probably wouldn't freeze in winter.

Just brain storming. stuff I might do.

But now my brain hurts...

got to go.

Bye...

raaden
08/13/2007, 09:23 PM
So far the sun had been hitting the greenhouse full force, with almost no clouds in the sky. One thing that made a huge difference was when a stray cloud blocked out the sun for a minute or two you could tell a huge difference in the temps in the greenhouse. It would cool noticably and quickly, but then the sun would come out and beat down again. Unfortunately there would be no cloud cover until Friday.

By 4 pm the temps in the greenhouse were pretty rough. The ambient temp was was 112 and I spent most of my time standing either in front of the evap cooler (the pad temps were pretty stable at 77) or infront of the exhaust fan trying to dry out a little. The vat temp reached 85.4 and the xenia and rics were in hideout mode. This time the leathers started to react as well, they started to shrivel up a bit and the green was starting to put out quite a bit of a mucus covering. The clam never even flinched though which makes sense as they can spend quite a bit of time in the searing heat out of the water. The discs were curling up some as well and I was starting to think I had reached the ceiling of what they could take. Since the vat was the closest one to the evap I made a wind tunnel out of cardboard to direct the cool air onto the water and waited for 530 to come. Fortunately nothing got worse and after cooling the tanks back down below 84 I was happy things were still doing well.

That night again the fans didn't shut off, and the tank temps were again 79 degrees first thing in the morning. I put the frozen bottles in the tank to cool it down a bit and waited for what Mother Nature would bring today. Apparently the test was over as it was not nearly as bad as the day before. The outside temps still hit 100, and humidity was pretty bad but there was much more cloud cover on Friday and both the greenhouse temps and the vat temps stayed close to what they were on Wednesday. Temps peaked around 2 pm and after that there was a cooler breeze and quite a bit of clouds. Things were starting to cool off and not a bit too soon. The xenia hadn't come out all day, the zo's were not playing peekabo, the kenya tree was still a kenya stump, and only the leathers and clam were looking ok after the onslaught the day before. Forutnately the tank temps topped out at 84.2 and by 11 pm were back down to 81. I had the lights on in the GH as I was making a batch of rock and before I finished up for the night almost everything that was not already gone was back out soaking up the fluourescent glow.

The weekend through today were almost chilly by comparison as temps have been in the low 90's and things have gone very well in comparison with last week. The tank temps still fluctuate quite a bit but it doesn't seem to affect the corals much. The full on sunlight seems to be the biggest issue with most of the corals. That's the good news... the bad news is that starting Wednesday we are supposed to get a couple more days of low 100's but two good things are that it is supposed to be much less humidity, and the temps are cooling more at night this time. That last part is a key as it seems that the tanks are gaining a pretty even amount of heat throughout the day (temp at 6 am vs. temps at 6 pm), and I am guessing this is from the sun as the ambient temps in the gh have been highly variable during this time. It seems as long as the night is cooling them down they do fine in the sun... the nights when they don't cool down all the way seem to bethe ones when there is a problem.

This is very good news, atleast so far, as this means that I can use the tanks as heat sinks in the winter. If these numbers stay consistent, I can let the sunlight heat the water during the day and keep the GH cooler at night. Letting the GH cool down to high 60's at night will make a huge difference in the gas bill vs. having to keep it 76 all day long. I am waiting to hear back from the furnace manufacturer what his estimates are for the difference but I would expect it to be significant on the coldest nights. Also I won't have to worry about heating at all when the sun is out as the tanks should be absorbing enough heat to keep them warm.

All this got me thinking, and I found some huge holes in my logic that this might help with. For one I was thinking that having more gallons in the tank would be creating heat sinks that would help with heating and cooling, but if you try to keep the vats at a certain temperature there is no net heat loss or gain so if I don't allow the tanks to change temperature I lose most of the benefit. I still get the insulating factor of the extra water but I wouldn't get the stored heat. Another is that heating the water and the GH should give huge benefits in energy consumption. If I can use sump heaters to heat the water and allow that heat to radiate off the water surface it is coming off as Infrared heat that way versus convection heat coming from the furnace. The inner layer of poly is designed to reflect infrared heat but will lose convection heat through the many leaks in the surface of the greenhouse. Infrared heat isn't lost as well through a crack since it is heating whatever surface it hits.

**The new idea is to use sump heaters to heat and maintain the water a few degrees above the furnace setting so that it simply kicks in to make up for drafts and really cold nights. Unfortunately I will have to test this out as it starts to get cooler at night, but it seems to make sense with most of the people I have talked to about it.

Anyone have input on it ??

raaden
08/13/2007, 09:34 PM
KaptKen,

I am seriously looking into geothermal for when/if I decide to expand the greenhouse. I wrote up some ideas on it back in the BP thread, but for now it was just too expensive to try and do for one gh. I was looking for the geothermal to be used for an HVAC system and the total cost was pretty high compared to what I have now. I think it was in the high $10,000's for a complete system for the size I have but only a few thousand more for one to handle 3 GH's. Since I didn't know how things were going to work out I decided to wait and look back into it when/if I decide to expand.

When I was talking with the GH supplier he put me in contact with some people who had installed goethermal in western NC for greenhouses and they all said that the expense is not worth it for something this small. With our ground temps it would be absolutely perfect as the well water is pretty consistent at about 55 so I am pretty sure it would work well should I go that route.

To use it as a heat exchange medium for the tanks directly is close to what I tried to do with the heat sinks I put in the tanks but i didn't make the run into the tank long enough to get enough temp increase in the line, so I am not sure if I am going to stick with it or not. I might try a longer run in the Poly tank to see what it does though.

michika
08/13/2007, 09:55 PM
This is a fantastic thread. Its an amazing build, and I'm really interested to see where you try to take this in terms of research. I wish you luck with your heating problems!