What type of algae for Algal Turf Filter?

[Trilithon3]

I'm in the process of moving my sump to the basement where I will have more room to try different things. I'm thinking about buliding an Algal Turf Filter and would like to know what type of algae is used.

Thanks

[piercho]

Algae turf filters, usually called Algae Turf Scrubbers or known by the acronym ATS, where proposed and used by Walter Adey of the Smithsonian Institute. He describes the theory and operation extensively in "Dynamic Aquaria", Adey and Loveland. ATS are also summarily described in "Reef Aquaria Volume 3", Delbreek and Sprung. For a while ATS were available commercially for hobbyists. I don't think that this is currently the case.

There is no single turf algae specie used. The ATS should have a dynamic community of turf and micro algae of all different types: red, green, brown, cyanos, dinos, and diatoms. If well-handled, un-cured live rock is used in the tank it can be expected to bring in this turf algae community with it. Inland Aquatics in Indiana also used to sell ATS "starter screens".

There are a few differences in the construct of an ATS compared to a standard refugia/filter. All herbivores, including microherbivores like copepods, are excluded. The lighting is very intense to emulate sunlight. The algae turf is surged to simulate algae growing on rock at the water line. Surging the turf - covering it with a thin layer of water and then exposing it to air - also maximizes gas exchange between the algae and the air and the scrubber and the system water.

Dynamic Aquaria is worth a read if you are interested in setting up an ATS. Otherwise, there was a long thread on the topic in Eric Borneman's old Coral Forum on Reef Central starting about 4-5 years ago. Eric also wrote an article on a commercial ATS he tried, also going back around 5 years ago. The discussion of ATS in Reef Aquaria Vol 3 is not complete enough, IMO, to use to set up an ATS.

I have used an ATS on my current tank and plan to use an ATS on my next tank. When I moved my current tank I discontinued use of the tank surge device that also drove the surge for the ATS. Its been about 1.5 years since I've had an operational ATS.

[Trilithon3]

Thank you for all the info.
Do you think an ATS offers any benefits over a refugium?

[carnavor]

i use a atscrubber , which i ordered a seeded screen from inlandaquatics.com. great seeded screens , they sell for $33 bucks a sq.ft. plus overnight shipping. check it out.

[piercho]

Do you think an ATS offers any benefits over a refugium? When people say "refugium", they generally mean a single tank that serves two purposes of being a refuge for bugs and a vegetative filter. In a "refugium", there is usually one or two specie of graze-resistant algae like Caulerpa or Chaetormopha grown as an export algae. An ATS is just a vegetative filter. Bugs are not desired and should be excluded as much as possible. The only thing an ATS is a "refuge" for is highly grazable, highly productive algae. So there really is not a direct comparison to be made between a refugium and a ATS.

If properly set up and maintained, an ATS should keep nutrient levels in the tank lower than in a Chaeto or Caulerpa filter of equal dimensions, IMO and IME. It will do little to produce zooplankton for the system, or recharge the system with microfauna, which is a major purpose of a refugium.

[antonsemrad]

Is it possible to use a turf scrubber in a little different way?

What I mean is, to put a pod condo under the turf screen (or just use Live Rock) and make it kind of like a 'shoreline fuge', with the purpose of generating plankon (uptake), as opposed to export.

I was thinking to tie the lights in with the surge, so that at night the grazors could come up and do their thing, at 'high tide'.

Anyone think of a reason why this wouldn't work?

[piercho]

Algae will grow on the screen of the system you describe and bugs will do well if predators are excuded.

[jglackin]

I have an algae turf scrubber on my tank. Inland Aquatics still sells starter strips for turf scrubbers. They swear by turf scrubbing. I have only had mine for two months, so I can't really tell you how it is working for my tank, but it definitely grows a lot of bugs.

[Flatlander]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39531&highlight=ats

[jglackin]

Rod Beuhler (Rod's Food) has a surge set up on several of his systems. I love them. I wish that I could do something like that, but it is not practical for my set up. Even though I run a skimmer, I do prefer the more natural environment that a turf scrubber provides in both nutrient control as well as critter production. I have my scrubber and refugium dumping directly into my return so that I am not skimming anything that comes out of my fuge and scrubber (algae, phyto, critters, etc.), but I would prefer to have a surge type system above my tank that is completely separate from the pump system.

[pjf]

I kept a small batch of chaetomorpha in a section of my 29-gallon sump/refugium:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/93304Tunze_Refugium.JPG
The water flows under the first baffle to suspend the chaetomorpha with an upward current. A mesh tank divider (http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/4018) keeps the algae from spilling into the pump compartment. The tank divider is held by the current against another baffle which the water flows over.

Here's why I think this setup is superior to a traditional ATS:

(1) Low maintenance & bare-bottom
(2) The chaetomorpha acts as a mechanical filter because it grows thick as a "Brillo" pad. During weekly rinsing, more debris is washed out of the algae than from my skimmer.
(3) What the chaetomorpha fails to trap, the mesh tank divider (Lee's or PennPlax brand) gets.

If you build anything fancier than my humble setup, your maintenance may go up with marginal net filtration benefits. I'm not sure what my chaetomorpha absorbs in the way of nitrates and phosphates but it is worth its keep based on its mechanical filtration alone.

[Flatlander]

You may be correct in that the maint. is more but if you read all the info on different algae,s used for filtration, turf algae is said to be better. However, I guess thats debatable. :D

Plus the units we discussed, are designed to be a good looking fixture on ones tank and provides a surge for water movement. My smaller attemps at algae in a sump, never amounted to much, certainly not as good as my scrubber. Those were smaller amounts though with limited lighting.

A friends 100g sump, full of algae and lit with a 400w Iwasaki, did make a huge difference on a 180g aquarium. But thats something most of us cant do.

[pjf]

Are Gelbstoff, Gilvin or chromophoric dissolved organic matter (CDOM) problems with an algal turf scrubber (ATS)?

Is carbon filtration or ozone necessary when an ATS is used in order to remove CDOM?

"Dissolved material in sea water that is resistant to bacterial attack. Its name comes from the yellow color it imparts to the water. Brown algae, the principal algae group growing in coastal waters of temperature and higher latitudes, excrete phenolic compounds. These polyphenols are converted into a brown polymer by secondary reactions with carbohydrates and proteins of algal origin. The properties of the resulting substance are identical with Gelbstoff. Its concentration in sea water is around 1 mg/l and it is removed mainly by precipitation since its phenolic nature renders it resistant to bacterial attack. This is also known as yellow substance or gilvin. See Riley and Chester (1971)." - http://oceanography.expert-answers.net/glossary-word/en/Gelbstoff.html

[piercho]

New carbon made the water noticeably less colored immediately after I changed the carbon out when I was using an ATS. Changing the carbon made the water less colored when growing macroalgae in the sump with no ATS, also. This was true whether Chaetomorpha, Caulerpa, Sargassum, Acanthophora, or unidentified red algae were dominating the macroalgae filter. It was also true wether or not I was using a skimmer. Carbon always made the water less colored right after new carbon was put in my tank.

[Flatlander]

As I always ran a skimmer with my turf scrubber, I,m assuming it kept the water free of colour from the algae. Its recommended to run carbon though, if running skimmerless. I imagine ozone would work fine also.

[pjf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10776249#post10776249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flatlander
As I always ran a skimmer with my turf scrubber, I,m assuming it kept the water free of colour from the algae.
I have a Tunze 9010 skimmer but it does not remove CDOM. I bought a carbon reactor to filter CDOM. What algae do you use in your ATS?

[piercho]

There is some detail in the first few posts about algae for ATS:There is no single turf algae specie used. The ATS should have a dynamic community of turf and micro algae of all different types: red, green, brown, cyanos, dinos, and diatoms. If well-handled, un-cured live rock is used in the tank it can be expected to bring in this turf algae community with it. Inland Aquatics in Indiana also used to sell ATS "starter screens".

[pjf]

Flatlander stated that CDOM is not an issue with his ATS. Since I have the same skimmer as Flatlander, it is not the skimmer that is filtering Gelbstoff or Gilvin. So the question is:

What macroalgae in your ATS produces the least amount of chromophoric dissolved organic matter (CDOM)?

[Flatlander]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10779365#post10779365 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
Flatlander stated that CDOM is not an issue with his ATS. Since I have the same skimmer as Flatlander, it is not the skimmer that is filtering Gelbstoff or Gilvin. So the question is:

What macroalgae in your ATS produces the least amount of chromophoric dissolved organic matter (CDOM)?

My screen had a red/green turf algae. It was just what grew and not seeded. FWIW, when I ran a sump w/calerpa, {see April 01 TOTM}, it had more problems with algae bleeding that my turf scrubber ever did. Not to mention the turf algae never dies off.

As for the skimmer reference, I never had the Tunze then. The tanks were larger and used beckett skimmers. The few times I ran with the skimmer off to see results, I never seen any water yellowing but usually ran carbon, albiet not much, in my sump or a power filter.

Actually I dont ever recall running without carbon, so perhaps it was removing most of the algae,s yellowing effects. But, when the above mentioned tank w/algae in the sump, had a problem with yellow/green water from a calerpa die off, the Euroreef I was running on that tank, definetely filtered much off it.

I have not run my scrubber since owning the Tunze but that may come.

[pjf]

Thanks, Flatlander. I'll avoid caulerpa if I want to prevent the formation of CDOM (gelbstoff & gilvin) in my aquarium.

Do you know if vascular plants are less prone to producing CDOM than macroalgae?

Finding a skimmer that can remove CDOM without the aid of carbon and ozone will be great. Do you know if CDOM is beyond the reach of skimmer technology?

There is anecdotal evidence that CDOM may be too soluble to be removed by foam fractionation. However, I've not been able to find a reference that stating that organic compounds above a certain solubility constant cannot be removed by foam fractionation.

[Flatlander]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10782698#post10782698 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
Thanks, Flatlander. I'll avoid caulerpa if I want to prevent the formation of CDOM (gelbstoff & gilvin) in my aquarium.

I only tried with normal feather type calerpa species and not the various algaes now used in sump filtration.

Do you know if vascular plants are less prone to producing CDOM than macroalgae?

Pardon my ignorance but I,m not sure what that means.

Finding a skimmer that can remove CDOM without the aid of carbon and ozone will be great. Do you know if CDOM is beyond the reach of skimmer technology?

I cant say for sure but am following your other thread to see also.

There is anecdotal evidence that CDOM may be too soluble to be removed by foam fractionation. However, I've not been able to find a reference that stating that organic compounds above a certain solubility constant cannot be removed by foam fractionation.

I dont know why its to soluble or am I missing something here. With the absence of our former resident experts, perhaps e-mailing one of them, {like Borneman or Shimek} or as suggested, one of the main manufacturers would help.

[pjf]

Foam fractionation (protein skimming) works by removing organic compounds that are hydrophobic such as oil. These organic compounds are attracted to bubbles produced by a skimmer because they want to be between the water and the air. Some organic compounds, such as yellowing compounds (aka: gelbstoff, gilvin & chromphoric dissolved organic matter - CDOM), are more soluble and can be found in the water column. These are harder for skimmers to remove because they are not as attracted to bubbles and to the surface of the water.

Per my 2nd post in this thread above, I cited a scientific website that states yellowing compounds primarily come from macroalgae.

Anyway, you mentioned that your tank does not have visible amounts of yellowing compounds. Which means one of the following must be true:

(1) You use carbon filtration or ozone which remove yellowing compounds
(2) Your skimmer is able to skim yellowing compounds and I want to know which skimmer can do this.
(3) Your algae does not produce as much yellowing compounds and I want to know which macroalgae you use.

I also asked if you have raised vascular (roots and leaves) marine plants and observed if vascular plants produce less yellowing compounds than macroalgae.

[Flatlander]

[i]
Anyway, you mentioned that your tank does not have visible amounts of yellowing compounds. Which means one of the following must be true:

(1) You use carbon filtration or ozone which remove yellowing compounds

Thats correct, but as mentioned my skimmer still removed the effects of my calerpa once crashing but not sure if thats what you're looking for.

(2) Your skimmer is able to skim yellowing compounds and I want to know which skimmer can do this.

Thats one I cant answer but perhaps in your other thread, some may. I like the answer from Mr. Wilson, being old school myself. It would still be nice to know how much of it the skimmers removing though, because of the cost of his mentioned products and many others used.

(3) Your algae does not produce as much yellowing compounds and I want to know which macroalgae you use.

Just the mentioned calerpa, which I would never use again and turf algae, which was much better.

I also asked if you have raised vascular (roots and leaves) marine plants and observed if vascular plants produce less yellowing compounds than macroalgae. [/B]

The calerpas I used was a rooting one, so it produced more, in my set up. Also, as mentioned, I have not tried the various non rooting algaes now used in sump filtration. I dont think any type of algae would not produce some yellowing compound. I guess just running a skimmer with one of the systems would show if its removing it or not. Perhaps when I set my scrubber up again.