I've had it with sumps!!!

[woogy]

Why can't I get good information about sumps? On ebay I can buy a kit for a 10gallon kit for a sump, which I am considering. MY TANK IS NOT DRILLED!!! I don't want to hear that I should have it drilled. It is already setup. I am doing this to try and reduce my nitrate to place my skimmer, heater etc...

1. Does it have to be drilled? Is this the only way to have a sump? If so, I will just purchase a HOB refugium.

2. I was told by someone that I need a pump around 450gph to pump the water back in the tank. Is this correct?

3. Now the water from the overflow box does that need a pump for it to return to the sump or is this just gravity?

4. Is there a box which where you attach the tubing/pvc pipe from the water pumping back into the tank? I see there is overflowboxes, which have 2 bulkheads attached to it. Is this what I need?

Please someone help me.

29gallon aquarium:mad2:

[shag26272]

HOB overflow box

http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html

[mrbncal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9649037#post9649037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by woogy

1. Does it have to be drilled? Is this the only way to have a sump? If so, I will just purchase a HOB refugium.

no it doesn't have to be drilled.


2. I was told by someone that I need a pump around 450gph to pump the water back in the tank. Is this correct?

Kind of depends. Is this the only (or main) source of circulation for your tank? Ideally you would have a seperate pump or pumps for circulation. If you have circulating pumps then go with a return pump that is 3-5 times your tank volume, or equal to the size pump on your skimmer. Remember to take into account head pressure on your return pump. Use the head calculator on the front page of reef central.


3. Now the water from the overflow box does that need a pump for it to return to the sump or is this just gravity?

water from the overflow is gravity fed to the sump and then pumped back to the display.


4. Is there a box which where you attach the tubing/pvc pipe from the water pumping back into the tank? I see there is overflowboxes, which have 2 bulkheads attached to it. Is this what I need?

The HOB overflow consists of a box on the inside of the display tank and outside the tank. Water is in a continuous siphon from the inside to the outside. from the outside it will drain through a bulkhead (via gravity) to the sump. I would think one drain hole would be enough on a 29.

I'm sure others would disagree with some or all of the above but anyway there you go.....


: [/B]

[ahullsb]

Your tank does not need to be drilled. A hob overflow is fine. Look at cpr. You don't need a pump buy I highly recommend it. Since our tanks aren't drilled, a major crisis is the overflow losing it's suction and you coming home to an empty sump and water all over the floor. Plus the aqualifter pump is like 15 dollars or something. Well worth it compared to a small flood, burned out pumps and heaters, etc. I'm not sure how much flow you need as a return. Mine is the rio2500 and it is supposed to be rated around 675. It is actually much less considering it's traveling 4 feet up the back of my tank.

[fish 511]

ahullsb,
Do not mean to hijackyour thread woogy, but could you give a link or something of that aqualifter please? THANKS

[woogy]

you mean the kit for the sump?

[fish 511]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9649280#post9649280 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fish 511
ahullsb,
Do not mean to hijackyour thread woogy, but could you give a link or something of that aqualifter please? THANKS

Sorry, I was not ery clear. I meant the aqualifter pump. I was going to get a sump for my undrilled 50, but did not want to in fear of it overflowing. This would get rid of anything like that if it was what I was thinking of.

[woogy]

mrbncal:

3. Now the water from the overflow box does that need a pump for it to return to the sump or is this just gravity?

water from the overflow is gravity fed to the sump and then pumped back to the display.

pumped back into the display where???

[SaltyDr]

It is pumped back from the sump, up to the display (over the side) and just slightly below the surface. Just make sure you have a small hole drilled just below the water line so that if the pump fails you have a siphon break. Otherwise you will back drain the display into the sump and ...flood!

[mrbncal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9649411#post9649411 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by woogy
mrbncal:

3. Now the water from the overflow box does that need a pump for it to return to the sump or is this just gravity?

water from the overflow is gravity fed to the sump and then pumped back to the display.

pumped back into the display where???


That would be the return. Usually a pipe or hose that is attached to the return pump (and clamped on; ) ) and leads back to the display. So what is happening is as the sump return pump sends water back to the display the water level goes up in the display and enters the overflow box which leads to the sump.

The return hose usually has an end on it similar to a canister filter return ....does that make sense. Not as easy to explain as I thought.

[woogy]

fish511:

Sorry, I was not ery clear. I meant the aqualifter pump. I was going to get a sump for my undrilled 50, but did not want to in fear of it overflowing. This would get rid of anything like that if it was what I was thinking of.

You can get return pumps at various websites, if that is what u mean. I do not know how many gph you need. Probably start a thread about that.

[woogy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9649519#post9649519 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrbncal
That would be the return. Usually a pipe or hose that is attached to the return pump (and clamped on; ) ) and leads back to the display. So what is happening is as the sump return pump sends water back to the display the water level goes up in the display and enters the overflow box which leads to the sump.

The return hose usually has an end on it similar to a canister filter return ....does that make sense. Not as easy to explain as I thought.

OK...I think I got it!!! I had a fluval canister filter once before and it had a spray bar to return the water. This would be similiar right? OK now I just got to figure out how to plumb it!:D

[sjm817]

You dont need an Aqualifter if you have a good overflow. They are only needed for overflows that can not maintain a siphon on their own like a CPR. Stick with a quality overflow that doesnt need one.

[mrbncal]

It seems tricky but once you get into it and everything is in front of you it starts to make sense.....

and btw I wouldn't use a spray bar on the end just a u-tube and a directional spout.

[woogy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9649754#post9649754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrbncal
It seems tricky but once you get into it and everything is in front of you it starts to make sense.....

and btw I wouldn't use a spray bar on the end just a u-tube and a directional spout.

where do u purchase these u-tubes and directional spout? Home depot? Does it just hang on the back of the tank? Do u need something to hold it in place so it doesn't fall off?

[mrbncal]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/printthread.php?s=&threadid=1015205&perpage=52&pagenumber=1

check out this thread ...way down towards the bottom there is a good picture or two showing how this should look. You can use pvc like he did or you can substitute clear hose for convenience and less 90 degree turns. your local LFS would be a better place for spouts.

[ihopss]

Why did you get in this hobby,, If you do not want to study.If this becomes a chore you have to much to do,try again later..
Your tank is not dying,slow down.

[jmait769]

Hopefully what has been discussed above helps you. Pictures are worth a 1000 words so here is how I have mine setup.

Flow from the tank is from a dual overflow with 1” flex line down to the sump.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/Overflow.jpg

The connectors you see on the right upper side is where the water is gravity feed down to the 1 ¼” pipe running horizontally. Right side has a ball valve which dumps some of the overflow into the refugium. The rest goes over to the bubble trap. The water flows to the center and is pumped back up to the tank by a Quiet One 3000 with about 550 GPH flow.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/Sump03.jpg

The black fittings on the outside that come up and over are the return plumbing.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/CL02.jpg

In this shot you can see the return lines that are on the left and right and are the same length. This has been running for almost a year now.

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/jmait769/FullShot03112007.jpg

There are a number of ways to do this so keep up the rearch and choose the one you think will fit your needs. Here is a great page from Melev's <a href="http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html" target="_blank">How a sump works</a> page that explains the concept as well.

HTH

Jay

[mrbncal]

[QUOTE][i Here is a great page from Melev's <a href="http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html" target="_blank">How a sump works</a> page that explains the concept as well.

QUOTE]


Thats where that is ....I knew there was a good page about this but I could not place where I had seen it.

btw are you using a closed loop over the back?

[woogy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9650287#post9650287 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wmullins
Why did you get in this hobby,, If you do not want to study.If this becomes a chore you have to much to do,try again later..
Your tank is not dying,slow down.

Did I say it was dying? Why would u say i am not studying. I look at this stuff 24/7 (ask my wife). I just wanted some good information on sumps and it seems so far I have gotten good responses.

[woogy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9650583#post9650583 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrbncal
[QUOTE][i Here is a great page from Melev's <a href="http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html" target="_blank">How a sump works</a> page that explains the concept as well.

QUOTE]


Thats where that is ....I knew there was a good page about this but I could not place where I had seen it.

btw are you using a closed loop over the back?

What is a closed loop exactly? This is with the tank drilled right?

[jmait769]

Yes there is a closed loop. I based mine from Melev's <a href="http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html" target="_blank">Closed Loop</a> page (I love that guy!) but adapted it to the way I wanted. Same concept however. No, the tank is not drilled.

Originally posted by wmullins
Some times you just have to hit the ignore button! :rolleyes:

Jay

[Frick-n-Frags]

a magnum cannister filter is a portable closed loop as an example.

anything that has the inlet and outlet both under the water doesn't depend on the pump-up/drain-down like a sump system.
There is no air or gravity involved to monkey things up.

[tunerX]

An aqualifter doesn't mean that the overflow box is low quality. If you lose power a standard c-siphon will not prime itself, when the power comes back on. The aqualifter sucks the air out of the c-siphon to prime the hose. If you don't want to use an aqualifter, you can get a venturi style powerhead with low flow and use the airline to prime the siphon. Both a venturi powerhead and lift pump will run between 5-15 USD.

If you have worries about the return turning into a siphon, in the event of a power failure, install a check valve on the return; this will ensure that water will only ever go one way. You can also put the return on a spray bar or not put the return deep into the tank. If you keep the return shallow then it will only suck in a few gallons and your sump should be able to handle the excess water.

[sjm817]

Not low quality, just a bad design. A well designed siphon should never allow air to accumulate and require external means to remove it.

[Travis L. Stevens]

1. Does it have to be drilled? Is this the only way to have a sump? If so, I will just purchase a HOB refugium.
Purchase a HOB Overflow. This works just fine, and with a few tweaks, it's almost fool proof. FWIW, it helps tremendously to have a tank drilled.

2. I was told by someone that I need a pump around 450gph to pump the water back in the tank. Is this correct?
It all depends on what you want to keep. FWIW, I think that would be a great sized pump, but it's your preference with your livestock.

3. Now the water from the overflow box does that need a pump for it to return to the sump or is this just gravity?
Syphon & Gravity for a HOB Overflow Box, and just Gravity for a drilled tank. If the Syphon breaks on the HOB Overflow, you can encounter some flooding problems. Hince my reference to tweaking the HOB Box

4. Is there a box which where you attach the tubing/pvc pipe from the water pumping back into the tank? I see there is overflowboxes, which have 2 bulkheads attached to it. Is this what I need?
There is a wide variety of different overflow boxes, but yes.

FWIW, you mentioned you are having nitrate issues. FWIW, a skimmer only masks the problem. A skimmer takes compound organic particles out of the water before they turn in to nitrates. Thus, you still have a problem with lots of excess organics. I would look into your bioload, feeding habits, and tank maintenance before you worry much about the nitrates.

[woogy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9652673#post9652673 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
[/b]

2. I was told by someone that I need a pump around 450gph to pump the water back in the tank. Is this correct?
It all depends on what you want to keep. FWIW, I think that would be a great sized pump, but it's your preference with your livestock.

I kind of get it, but doesn't the return have to match the water being drained into the sump? I thought they would have to equal out so that the water is not too much going in to cause the tank to overflow and when it drains it does not overflow the sump. Or does this not matter?

[FWIW, you mentioned you are having nitrate issues. FWIW, a skimmer only masks the problem. A skimmer takes compound organic particles out of the water before they turn in to nitrates. Thus, you still have a problem with lots of excess organics. I would look into your bioload, feeding habits, and tank maintenance before you worry much about the nitrates. [/B]

I have im y tank is a cleaner shrimp, 6 nass snails, 3 hermits and a big black urchin. NO FISH!!! I change my water every week 5-10 gallons and replace the carbon and media as directed. carbon monthly and foam every 2 months. Should I rinse my foam more often. There is 30-45lbs of LR 2" of aragonite. I have a mj600 for flow.

[rustybucket145]

clean.... foam every 2 months
There's your nitrate issue. Remove the foam all together. There's no need for it. It's just trapping uneaten food and particulate matter before it can be broken down by you tanks biological filtration.

Here's a pic of kinda how a sump can be setup. There's no need to buy a 'kit' Just get a 10 or 20gal tank and silicone some glass baffles (glass window panes cut at lowes) in for your bubble traps. In this image the pump is located outside the last chamber. I would NOT recommend that you do this with your setup. In this certain situation it was the only way to do it but I would not recommend it to anyone.

http://www.buddyscampfire.com/meshModImages/sump.jpg