To UV or Not to UV, that is the question!

[cbeitel]

OK

I'm looking to improve my system with a UV. I have a 140g mixed reef and 45g sump. The total system volume is around 140g of water. (170lb LR, 120lb LS) I run an ASM G3 skimmer, 10g fuge, Phos reactor for carbon media. The tank is 6 months.

I'd like opinions from both sides of the fence.

[SDguy]

What do you mean by "improve your system"? UV's do a very specific thing. They kill whatever oragnism (plant or animal) that comes into contact with the light (size depending on size of/flow through the UV unit).

[drummereef]

I've not found them necessary for my purpose. ;)

[cbeitel]

Improve my system... Hummmmm.... Got me there.

I guess what I am looking for is a way to reduce unwanted things. I had Ick 4 months ago and I know it is never really gone. I had a cyano breakout that I just cured and I'm sure I'll have another problem soon.

So by improve my system, I guess I mean something to help with the above issues. I will continue to do the needed WC and adjust my feeding and Bioload amounts, but I know at some point I'll have another problem. I would think a UV might help.

But I know there is a trade off, so that is why I have posted. I want to make an informed decision.

[Krazy]

*Taggin along on this one*

I need to learn more about UV

Pros/Cons

Yes/No/Why

:)

[funman1]

I run a 9 turbo twist on my tank.
I noticed the water was clearer with it running.

Now I don't think it will help you one bit with cyano though.
I still have some small tiny cyano problems, running the UV 24/7
I have heard they keep disease on fish VERY low, and it's unlikely to spread to any other fish in the tank.

[Gundo5000]

I always put one on a tank. Only downside for me is that they will kill copepods.

[SDguy]

There was a thread about this in another forum. People with UV's have tons of pods. Not a factor, IMO. You must size your UV properly. People ridiculously undersize their UV units, then complain that UV's don't do anything. I like about 15W per 50 gallons. Here's a more technical breakdown:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1010554

[DarthBaiter]

I run a UV and I have tons of pods. :) I also run one in my Q tank.
It kills free floating algae for one thing and I belive it helps keep ich at bay by killing or sterilizing them in their free floating stage.
Anyway, in my Q tank, I've had fish with spots on them, and I never treat them and they have always cleared up.

I run 15w on my 30g cube and a 15w on my q tank. My 90g display has a uv built in my chiller and I'm not quite sure what watt it is...

[Gdevine]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9678943#post9678943 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarthBaiter
I run a UV and I have tons of pods. :) I also run one in my Q tank.
It kills free floating algae for one thing and I belive it helps keep ich at bay by killing or sterilizing them in their free floating stage.
Anyway, in my Q tank, I've had fish with spots on them, and I never treat them and they have always cleared up.

I run 15w on my 30g cube and a 15w on my q tank. My 90g display has a uv built in my chiller and I'm not quite sure what watt it is...

I can't concur more; I purchased mine for all the same reasons and as an insurance policy for the future. My water (along with the use of Boyd's Chemi Pure) is always crystal freaking clear. No blooms, no algae break outs and water panels total in the norm.

For some, it's a worth while investment and for me it was for sure:)

[cbeitel]

Thanks for all the responses.

Any more opinions out there?

[greenbean36191]

As far as disease prevention goes, they're essentially useless. They've been shown to be ineffective at controlling ich and many pathogenic bacteria such as some Vibrio even at exposure levels orders of magnitude higher than anything hobbyists use.

They are useful for oxidizing nutrients and clearing up water, but ozone does the job better. Of course ozone is also a bit more complicated.

Also, keep in mind that if you really want to get your money's worth from a UV you need to keep it set up properly. That means cleaning the sleeve and replacing the bulb regularly and making sure the unit is sized for your tank and is getting the right amount of flow. Lots of people tend to undersize, use too much flow, and maintain the unit infrequently.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9681041#post9681041 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
As far as disease prevention goes, they're essentially useless. They've been shown to be ineffective at controlling ich

In "general" or specifically unable to kill the free floating/living stage of the parasite? Please supply a reference if the latter as I did not know this/have not heard this. Thanks :)

[greenbean36191]

In general. Here are two to get you started. Obviously the second isn't marine ich, but the lifecycle of FW ich is similar enough and that's what causes the problem.

Spotte, S., Adams, G. "Pathogen reduction in closed aquaculture systems by UV radiation: fact or artifact?" Marine Ecology Progress Series 6(3) 1981:295-298.

Gratzek, JB; Gilbert, JP; Lohr, AL; Shotts, EB Jr; Brown, J. " Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet in a closed fish culture recirculation system." Journal of fish diseases. Oxford. Vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 145-153. 1983.

[dbrann11]

When i was 1st setting up my reef the LFS told me the absolute 1st piece of equipment i should get was U/V, even before a skimmer. I had already done some research but that prompted me to do more. I haven't been able to find a consensus on anything except that it does keep free floating algae at bay. I didn't buy one. But I'm pretty careful about introducing fish, and haven't had any issue.

[cloak]

In a fish only without live rock I'd use them. Reef tank no.
The ich parasite is bad for your FISH but in a reef tank it might be food for a coral. Sounds like phytoplankton. Don't want to kill everything in the water...

I would have one for sure on a KOI pond.

[REHEM]

I have a UV on my 120 gallon system simply because my LFS recommended that I do so. I have found that it is when I do not listen to her that I have problems!

I think the key to UV is balance, in terms of:
* The wattage of the lamp.
* The rate at which the water passes over the lamp, and
* The placement of the unit in your plumbing.

And I say all of this from personal experience...not heresay. I know that too much UV, in a Reef system, can be very harmful to the beneficial copepods; but also too little UV does nothing for the overall water conditioning. I also know that if water passes over the UV lamp too quickly, it has little or no affect to the overall water conditioning. So...BALANCE!

I have a 120 gallon RR with a 55 gallon sump which gives me a total water count of about 150 gallons. Believe it or not, I only run a 15 watt UV lamp across the entire thing, but it is because of where I have the unit placed in my plumbing that makes this wattage appropriate. It is the final piece of equipment in my water circulation/filtration process, which gives me the lowest flow of water before returning to the main tank. This low-flow positioning of the unit gives the water more exposure time to the Ultra Violet light maximizing its efficiency, yet the low wattage reduces the risk to pods.

<img src=http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w16/KOLE1357/120galTanksSump.jpg>

<img src=http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w16/KOLE1357/UV.jpg>
I can restrict the flow even more by turning back the ball valve on the return pump, but I haven't found it necessary.

<img src=http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-85300140756196_1945_49569226>

I use an AQUA BRAND 15 watt UV Sterilizer with the built-in quartz sleeve wiper. I have heard some people say that they have experienced problems with the wiper leaking at the connection point, but I have been very gentle with mine and I have had no problems at all. I wipe the sleeve a few times once a week, and it does a great job of removing/preventing any build up.

As I said, all of this is from my personal experience, with my particular unit, with my plumbing placement. As always, results may vary with other units, etc.
All I know is that my water is crystal clear and green hair algae is virtually non-existent.

(And for the record, I have plenty of skittering pods in my tank!)

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9695952#post9695952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
In general. Here are two to get you started. Obviously the second isn't marine ich, but the lifecycle of FW ich is similar enough and that's what causes the problem.

Spotte, S., Adams, G. "Pathogen reduction in closed aquaculture systems by UV radiation: fact or artifact?" Marine Ecology Progress Series 6(3) 1981:295-298.

Gratzek, JB; Gilbert, JP; Lohr, AL; Shotts, EB Jr; Brown, J. " Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet in a closed fish culture recirculation system." Journal of fish diseases. Oxford. Vol. 6, no. 2, pp. 145-153. 1983.

Thanks. Printing the first. Not paying $40 for the second :D

[SDguy]

OK, I see what the paper is saying. I think, however, in our systems (non culturing, much less overcrowded (usually ;) ) the properly sized UV can be that little extra something needed to help the fish fight off the ich on their own. I agree, a UV will never make a system pathogen free.

[Tang Salad]

I believe properly sized/used Uv has specific benefits, namely: lessening of glass scrapening by killing free floating algaes. Although I only notice this benefit when very slow flow (from a very clean (skimmed, carboned) water supply) enters the Uv unit. And only for a couple of weeks, probably due to my lack of cleaning the Uv sleeve.

Anyhow, I've since switched to O3 for similar results.

I wouldn't count on either to eliminate Ich.

[REHEM]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9698243#post9698243 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
OK, I see what the paper is saying. I think, however, in our systems (non culturing, much less overcrowded (usually ;) ) the properly sized UV can be that little extra something needed to help the fish fight off the ich on their own. I agree, a UV will never make a system pathogen free.

( Knocking wildly on wood!) I have yet to have had an outbreak of ich or any other diseases for that matter, in my system's history---not one spot. I attribute this partially to the UV, but also to the many other important factors that go into maintaining ideal water parameters like clockwork water changes, regular filter media replacement, and routine equipment maintenance.

[AS11423]

Chubby or not chubby, fat is the question!

[cbeitel]

WOW. Great comments, experience, and even professional articles! Thanks everyone.

Well, if I could sum up everything...

- UV can help, but is far from a cure all
- Unit MUST be maintained weekly
- Flow and wattage size must be matched carefully
- Limited Ick and other pathogen benefits
- Most effective at killing free floating algea
- Biggest benefits, clearer water, cleaner display glass
- They are costly, and the benefits limited

I may still get one, but need to put more thought into which one and where to plumb it. The thought of not having to clean the display glass every 2 days sure sounds attractive! I think I am going to look into other ways of improving the tank for now.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9698358#post9698358 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REHEM
( Knocking wildly on wood!) I have yet to have had an outbreak of ich or any other diseases for that matter, in my system's history---not one spot. I attribute this partially to the UV, but also to the many other important factors that go into maintaining ideal water parameters like clockwork water changes, regular filter media replacement, and routine equipment maintenance.

Oh, I'll go one better. I hooked up my 15W unit on my old 30g (plus 12g sump) reef. Ich had been getting progressively worse over the weeks (even my P. springeri was covered). After adding the UV, the ich was gone in days and never returned. Can I prove it was the UV? No. Purely anecdotal. But man, I sure liked the results :D

[blmeier7]

I used a 18w UV on my 55g for 8-10 months. I thought I would go ahead and change the bulb but decided to let my tank run a while without the UV and see what differences it made. I really couldn't tell any difference (no ich, no excess algae). I did reduce the flow through the UV unit via a ball valve and I did clean the sleeve every few months. My only experience that may or may not have been related to UV use was my pod population completely dropped to the point I couldn't even find any on the glass in my refugium. My tank has been running over a year without UV and everything still looks great. From my experience I have found I don't need a UV unit. Others may have found them very usefull. I will be keeping the UV unit for "insurance" in case something changes down the line.

[REHEM]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9698931#post9698931 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blmeier7
I used a 18w UV on my 55g for 8-10 months. I thought I would go ahead and change the bulb but decided to let my tank run a while without the UV and see what differences it made. I really couldn't tell any difference (no ich, no excess algae). I did reduce the flow through the UV unit via a ball valve and I did clean the sleeve every few months. My only experience that may or may not have been related to UV use was my pod population completely dropped to the point I couldn't even find any on the glass in my refugium. My tank has been running over a year without UV and everything still looks great. From my experience I have found I don't need a UV unit. Others may have found them very usefull. I will be keeping the UV unit for "insurance" in case something changes down the line.

This is kind of an example of what I was talking about in relation to the pods. A 55 gallon tank filled with Live Rock, corals, and substrate will leave you with about 35-40 gallons of circulated water. That is a very small amount of water to be sending across an 18 watt UV lamp. The recommended wattage for 150 gallons is 25 ! You nuked'em!

Also, the quartz sleeve needs to be cleaned at least once a week for maximum benefit, not once every few months. The saltwater alone puts a slight haze over the sleeve in a week's time.

In my own opinion, I honestly don't see the need for a UV sterilizer if the Reef keeper is dedicated to their tank's overall parameters. I have heard that the use of a UV sterilizer can expand the time between water changes significantly, but I wouldn't recommend it for that purpose. The correct UV in addition to routine water changes, etc. has kept my system beautiful and healthy.

[Aimforever]

Just putting in my 2 cents... I had been battling a recurring ich problem since the outset of my uneducated plunge into this hobby. My royal gramma and black clown goby were getting progressively worse, with larger and larger ich outbreaks occurring every 4-6 days. Being an undergrad microbiologist, it made a lot of sense to me to employ UV. We use it in our labs to help keep workspace sterile, and virtually anything with DNA will be mutated beyond repair with sufficient exposure. When the lights go out at the end of the day in the lab, the UV comes on. In an act of desperation I got an oversized 25W Gamma UV from the Drs on credit. As I had hoped, the ich was eradicated within a few days. I haven't seen a spot since, and fish have recovered completely.

I know UV can't eliminate ich on its own, but it makes alot of sense that reducing the free swimming form of the causative organism will give the fish's own immune system a better chance fighting off the smaller numbers that are able to infect it. If anything, UV just helps tip the scales in your favor. In my case, this slight advantage seemed to be just what these otherwise healthy fish needed.

Sure, in a perfect world ich would never get into our tanks. In reality, everyone knows that having/maintaining an ich free system is close to impossible. I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are just too many pathways for the organism to be brought in. Just because your fish don’t have symptoms of ich, you cannot conclude that your tank is ich free. As soon as that accidental stressor comes along…disaster. For example, look at the beautiful ThOTM tank from March; total wipeout from ich, and that aquarist was infinitely more experienced than many of us. I felt terrible for his losses, and couldn't help but wonder if UV could have helped. If a large enough device was employed, I would bet so.

I think many people say UV is useless for ich because their units are grossly underpowered. If you don’t process the water fast enough while still maintaining 100% kill rate, then the free swimmers have a pretty good chance of finding a host before getting mutated. I feel that my success came from having an oversized UV that is able to process the volume of my tank in less than 7 minutes, while still maintaining a long enough exposure time to ensure everyone’s DNA plays musical chairs. Free swimming ich doesn't have a chance under these circumstances.

My tank is relatively young still, and I have never had a pod population (and without a fuge probably won't anytime soon) so I can't comment on that. I can say that the remarkably clear water and healthy fish have made me a believer. Now that my ich is gone, it is still nice knowing I have a little extra protection for the unforeseen future. Plus, its been fun being able to just pop the bubble algae to get rid of them.

If you have perfect husbandry, scrub algae every day, do weekly water changes, and QT everything till you are blue in the face… then UV would probably be a waste of money. On the other hand, if you are human, get a UV that is overpowered and you will see results.