Calcium Citrate

[poissonist]

I NOW SEARCH FOR GUYS WHO USE/USED IT AND ARE/WERE DESAPOINTED/HAPPY WITH!!

ABOUT ACETAT I HAVE ENOUGH BACKGROUND AND GLUCONATE ALSO;

THIS QUESTION BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO BRING BICARBONATES ANYMORE;

ALSO MAYBE ONE OF YOU KNOW A BASIC CHEMICAL PRODUCT COMPATIBLE WITH SALT WATER WHICH DECREASE BICARBONATES IN co2?
wITHOUT SEDIMENTATION PLEASE!!!

I KNOW I ALWAYS ASK DIFFICULT QUESTIONS!!!!


:D

[lduncan]

Most people just use calcium chloride, because it's cheap and available.

But calcium citrate / acetate / gluconate etc will all work.

One thing to look into further might be the effect of citrate and acetate ions on total alkalinity.

Layton

[DrBDC]

Some cut and pastes from Dr. Farley.

Acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water. So you do not decrease the bicarbonate levels with acetate.

In normal seawater or marine aquarium water, the bicarbonate greatly dominates all other ions that contribute to alkalinity. Corals may actually use bicarbonate instead of carbonate as their ultimate source of carbonate (which they split into H+ and CO3--).

Some suggest that bicarbonate enters the coelenteron from the water column and from metabolic processes in nearby cells. The bicarbonate combines with a proton to form CO2, and the CO2 freely diffuses across the calicoblastic epithelium to the ECF, where it is converted into carbonate. Other scientists believe that bicarbonate itself is actively pumped from the coelenteron across the calicoblastic epithelium to the ECF. Once in the ECF, it is converted into carbonate.

Thus, you really can't and shouldn't try to decrease the levels of bicarbonate/carbonate in a reef tank.

I really think you're trying to re-invent a wheel that is perfectly round already. We already have balanced calcium and alkalinity supplements which are cheap and easy as pie with no precipitation problems.

[poissonist]

thank you for your reply. i experiment the effects you describe.

i do not re invent but i run aquarium with high load.
equivalent 500 FISHS/ 1000 LITERS PLUS CORALS SOFT AND HARD AND MANY OTHER ANIMALS and crevets....;

I USE ETHANOL/acetat BUT IT ALSO INCREASE THE NEED OF CALCIUM AND MAGNESIUM because of bacteria; AND IT INCREASE ALKALINITY and this get on my nerves!!!!

AT THE MOMENT I FOUND ONLY TO CHANGE WATER BUT I CONTINU TO SEARCH A METHOD TO GIVE ABOUT 5Omg/liter each day of calcium and the same with magnesium.Note that it can be more! i notice no sedimentation also!

retailers products are cheap as you said:i am afraid not my friend because of my levels!!!

what do you think if i run a reactor with pH AT ABOUT 6 TO TRANSFORM bicarbonates to CO2 DIRECT?(i am going to experiment a new denitrator with red ox to boost anaerobi bacteria hoping it will decrease bicarbonates!)! because they should transform evrything (alcool acetat bicarbonates) in CO2?!!!

If i find a solution to this ultime probleme i will be running a tank close to a natural snorkeling effect......plus plancton. i produce a lot of zooplancton at the same time......

of course if you have ideas tell me please!!

[poissonist]

and nobody use citrat down there??????????????????

[Boomer]

You CAN'T decrease the ratio of CO2: HCO3-:CO3- in seawater without causing a shift in pH. At any pH in water there is an exact ratio of CO2: HCO3-:CO3-. Although the ratio is the same the amount may be high to low but the ratio is still the same. If you lower the amount the pH can stay the same but the amount of each must be proportional to each. The only way this can be archived is to have a low Alk and low CO2. If you have a low Alk and high CO2 the pH will drop like a rock. The pH can drop or go up no matter what Alk is, simply by the addition or subtraction of CO2. If one managed to get the Alk down very low it would not take much of anything to make the pH drop, as there are almost no buffers in the water to keep the pH in check.

At a pH of 6 in seawater everything will not be converted to CO2. At that pH, which happens to be the pKa1 of seawater, half will be CO2 and half will be bicarbonate.

If you ran a reactor and converted the bicarbs to CO2 what is going to be using all that CO2. If all of it is not used the pH will crash. And if there was some kind of means to keep the pH at seawater levels then that CO2 will get converted back to HCO3-, bicarb, as it has to. There is no such thing has no or very low bicarbs and high CO2 and staying at seawater pH . And again, if there was a way to use most of the bicarb and most of the CO2 there is no buffer to keep the pH from shifting form any additions of acids or CO2 which will drop the pH.

If i find a solution to this ultime probleme i will be running a tank close to a natural snorkeling effect

It is not a problem, it is your choice of what you are using, that is creating your problems. So, to actually decrease bicarbs in seawater you only have one choice, to run a dangerously low Alk. And running such low Alk will have an effect on coral growth. Corals actually grow better at slightly higher Alk than NSW. Also, many macro's algaes feed of of HCO3- and not CO2, just as corals do.

[poissonist]

boomer it is very interesting and it helps me a lot. you give me many interesting infos. i will let you know about what will happen...

in this reactor i will also give alcool and acetat and i hope bacteria will make a lot of CO2 AND ACIDITY in a way to get down KH AND JUST AFTER REACTOR I WILL AERATE STRONGLY TO THROW AWAY co2.

[DrBDC]

Do you not have corals? They require carbonates and bicarbonates.

[Boomer]

poissonist

CO2 does not effect Alk. No matter how much CO2 you add or subtract the Alk remains unchanged. The only way to reduce Alk is to remove Alk components or have something that "feeds" on or that eats up Alk. If the unit produces enough acids the Alk will be eaten up. And with no Alk the pH will NOT remain stable and will drop at the sign of any CO2 or acids added to the systems.

TO THROW AWAY co2.

When you "throw away" the CO2 the pH will rise and you will have bicrabs again. As I said, the ONLY way to have little bicrabs is to have a low Alk and low CO2.

Maybe you can try reading these.

Carbon Dioxide
http://web.archive.org/web/20030504104128/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=Aquarium+Frontiers+--+Biochemistry+of+Aquaria&RecordNo=2074

What is Alkalinity
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry

The Relationship Between Alkalinity and pH.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

[poissonist]

of course i will read thanks!

so if you want to get down the bicarb you need to create acidity. this is what i want to do in the alcool reactor by usind big quantities of bacteria inside which should eat the bicarbonates and transform it in CO2?
I AM RIGHT OR WRONG?

I WILL MOSTLY FEED THEM WITH ACETAT CALCIUM AND MAGNESIUM TO BOOST THEM MUCH MORE INSIDE REACTOR!

SO YOU THINK IF I LET GO AFTER REACTOR A LOT OF co2, it will not increase again my bicarbonates?BECAUSE MY AQUARIUM pH IS ALWAYS BETWEEN 8.2 /8.4 AND CO2 SHOULD TRANSFORM IN BICARB AND CARBONATES ALSO!

REMEMBER THE EQUATION:

CO2........ACIDCARBONIC..........BICARB...........CARBONATES
pH 7.9

what is your opinion?

[poissonist]

it is not in the good position. i wanted to put 7.9 JUST BELOW THE BICARBONATES.........

[Boomer]

If I understand you English correct then yes. But you are making things way to complicated. It appears what you want is to lower the Alkalinity, which is what I said in the other post. Alkalinty can be lowered as you wish without this method you seem to want. HCl (Hydrochloric Acid) can do exactly what you want, lower the alkalinity. The only down fall is the additon of the chloride ion form the Cl-. NSW has 19,000 ppm Cl- so it is not that big of an issue. Like the CO2 lowering the pH the HCl will alos lower the pH along with the Alkalinity. So, one would need to be careful on additions with this method.

What is your alkalinity and what level do you want it at ?

Finally, what bacteria are you talking about ? As Dr has pointed out, the acetate produces bicarbs from bacterial activity. What bacteria "eat" bicrabs ? And what would there end product be ?

CO2........ACIDCARBONIC..........BICARB...........CARBONATES

I think you are misunderstanding this equation like many do. This equation dictates pH and does not tell how MUCH bicarbs there by weight or quanity. Alkalinity tells you that.

At a pH of 8.2 @ 20C there about 0.45 % CO2, 88 % HCO3- and 12 % HCO3-. You CAN NOT change those % at a pH of 8.2. You can only change the amount by weight or ppm, meq / l of its components, such as CO2/bicarb/carb

For example:

pH 8.3;

pH 8.3, Alk, 3.5meq/ l, 0.78 ppm CO2

pH 8.3, Alk 2.5, 0.55 ppm CO2

pH 8.3, Alk 1.5, 0.33 ppm CO2

and all 3 will still have the same ratio of 0.45 : 88 : 12 % (these are rounded off, so they do not = 100 %)


pH 7.9

pH 7.9, Alk 3.5 meq / l, 1.72 ppm CO2

pH 7.9, Alk 2.5, 1.23 ppm CO2

pH 7.9, Alk 1.5, 0.74ppm CO2

and all 3 will still have the same ratio of 1.25: 94: 5 % (these are rounded off, so they do not = 100 %)


You are making your system way to complicated and there is no reason for it. The more complicate it is the more there is to go wrong.

[poissonist]

about HCL I DO NOT LIKE BECAUSE I ALREADY PUT A LOT of chlorures! and it is already hard to me to put enough Na because it raise my pH VERY FAST;
(because i am not playing with common aquarium; it is about 100 times MUCH MORE LOADED THAN A COMMON AQUARIUM)

MY ALKALINITY CLIMB AND OF COURSE NEVER STOP; IT HAS NO LIMIT; AT A POINT I AM SURE ANIMALS WILL DIE! THAT IS ALL;

I NEED TO FIND A METHOD TO DECREASE ALKALINITY TO REACH THE NUMBER OF 13;

I DO NOT WANT TO GO ABOVE 24 (ALBERT THIEL TESTED AFTER AND SAW LETHAL) AND i do not go after 20. i just change water to be always down 20;

anyway if in a reactor between -50 AND -250mV I SHOULD HAVE pH low and big production of co2 and just after i will throw co2 AWAY STRONGLY ; I WILL FEED BACTERIA WITH ALCOOL AND ACETAT;
THE NORMAL RESULT IN DOING THAT SHOULD BE THAT BICARBONATES BE TRANSFORMED IN co2 BY BACTERIA; no?

And also i will manage so pH IN REACTOR WILL BE AT AROUND 6;
AT THAT pH with alkalinity of 20 OR 13 WHAT HAPPEN WITH co2?
LOGICALLY IT SHOULD BE A LOT AND EASY TO PUT IT IN THE AIR! no?

(I HAVE ALREADY ALSO A BIG PRODUCTION OF CAULERPA WHICH HELP ME BUT NOT ENOUGH to kill bicarbonates)

[PSam]

Man, I'm confused! But, how do you say, cette maison ne laisse pas le promeneur indifférent? interesting posts poissonist. They do, however, remind me why I love simplicity in my tanks. bonne chance! reefkeeping n’est pas du gâteau

please feel free to correct my french if necesssary :)

[PSam]

double.

[DrBDC]

If your alk is 20, stop absolutely everything you are adding and lets start from the beginning. High fish load does not = high alkalinity. Yes you may have filtration issues and arguably the need to use a bacterial form of denitrification but that really is irrelevant of the ca/alk/mag chemistry. First, if you are trying to house that amount of fish, why? Are you a wholesaler that is handling shipments or ??

But back to the ca/alk issues. Give us your current ca/alk/mag levels and stop adding from ca reactors, 2 parts, everything for a bit.

What other than fish are in your systems? Do you have corals? What kind of sand bed depth and size of sand particles? How big is the tank(s) and what form of filtration are you using as well as what kind of water movement is involved.

[Boomer]

MY ALKALINITY CLIMB AND OF COURSE NEVER STOP; IT HAS NO LIMIT; AT A POINT I AM SURE ANIMALS WILL DIE! THAT IS ALL

Then stop adding what ever it is that is raising it as Dr has already said.

THE NORMAL RESULT IN DOING THAT SHOULD BE THAT BICARBONATES BE TRANSFORMED IN co2 BY BACTERIA; no?

No the bacteria will raise the bicarbonates as Dr has already stated.

Here is a simple reaction of what happens with something like acetate, methanol etc..

NO3- + CH3OH--->N2 + CO2 +H20 + OH

the OH will combine with the CO2 and produce bicarbonate,

CO2 + OH --> HCO3- = bicarbonate
Just as Dr has posted and Randy has stated.


The only bacteria that are going to do what you want are photosynthetic bacteria or algae. An you will need tons of them do get where you want. These bacteria you are feeding now are not photosynthetic.

Acetate and bicarbonate metabolism in photosynthetic bacteria
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=550435



anyway if in a reactor between -50 AND -250mV I SHOULD HAVE pH low

That ORP means nothing. You can have that ORP with a high pH.

[poissonist]

thanks for your answers guys i will answer tonight.
i am not whole saler. it is nice to have 5OO FISHS/1000 LITERS PLUS CORALS BECAUSE IT IS LIKE IN NATURE!!!
DID YOU DO SNORKELING IN MALDIVES? YOU WOULD SEE THE SAME.

[poissonist]

if i stop adding calcium etc it falls and after 1 week i can get 250mg/l calcium.
so i continu to maintain it at 420mg/l and magnesium 1300 ABOUT.i use all possible methods: CALCIUM chlorure, caoh2, CAO, mgo,MGOH2, mgcl2,mgso4, PURE CALCIUM, boron, potassium, iode, iron and change water and maintain pH WITH NAOH and to balance excess of chlorures. (technic reefers will understand )

it is the red sea max with 50 FISHES AND urchins and stars snails worms crevets and everything that exist which can move.
it is full of all corals and also 4 TRIDACNA. that grows well. i double the size of tridacna each 3 MONTH.

All that grows fast because thanks to ethanol/acetat calcium and magnesium i maintain at little more than 0.1 NITRATES AND PHOSPHATES NEAR 0.

But it create bacteria which eat a lot of calcium and magnesium and potassium and everything else.

But those bacteria do not eat bicarbonates.

So i always feed corals and bacteria with calcium and if i stop it falls rapidly.

At the same time bicarbonates increase all the time so i need to change water mostly for this reason.

By the way corals eat my bacteria (bacteriplancton) and grows faster! as other guys report it in germany.

i also produce zooplancton with equIvalent 1600 LITERS NANOCHLOROPSIS/month ( it is experimentation) i have a contract with a firm to do that.i grow brachionus plicatilis.

i also feed my 4 DRAGONS WITH LIVE NAUPLIES EACH DAY.

Those bacteria make white filaments and THEY close my pipes often so i need to check all pipes often.

now i want to multiply bacteria between -5O AND 250 mv in the reactor and feed with acetat to see if it will decrease bicarbonates just after reactor.

I can also inject calcium and magnesium Nitrate in the reactor to test if i can raise my calcium and magnesium without adding anymore bicarbonates.

you pronostic it will not work i will tell if yes or no in the next future. i will install the system next WE.

ALSO I ADVISE PEOPLE TO ADD REGULARLY POTASSIUM BECAUSE IT GIVES MORE BLU TO YOUR discosomas etc.

[jdieck]

Poisson:

Your problem with Alkalinity is that as you feed your large desproportionate amount of bacteria (ethanol, vinager) they will convert that feed into Alkalinity.
To make it worst if to increase your Calcium you select supplements that add Alkalinity the alkalinity unbalance will get worst. Metalic Calcium, Calcium Acetate, Calcium Gluconate, Calcium Hydroxide or dissolving Calcium Carbonate in a Co2 reactor will all increase alkalinity by 1 meq/lt for every addition of 20 mg/lt of Calcium.
Your only alternative to increase Calcium without increasing Alkalinity will be to use Calcium Chloride. Keep up with water changes and using Calcium Chloride to get rid of the excess Alkalinity and chloride created in the process. For water changes use a salt low in alkalinity and high in calcium like Tropic Marin Pro.