feeding & fish load question

[XxMutedYouthxX]

hey guys... im getting ready to convert my 1 year old 120gal lps dominated tank into a SPS and LPS tank... I have heard a few different things as far as feeding and fish load goes for the SPS. First off I heard that a low fish load and daily feedings of very small sized foods is best and I have also heard that minimul feedings and a high fish load is best.... Any insite?

[dots]

When talking about the SPS, controlling the nutrients in the water is the key. Too little they fade and stop growing, too much they brown out.

Without trying to sound vague and I hate being vague, they need "enough" nutrients to have great coloration and growth and thrive. How much is enough varies from tank to tank. Fish waste and food in the water contribute greatly to the nutrients in the tank. Because SPS are more sensitive, SPS tanks tend to be lighter on average in the fish load department as compared to an LPS/Softie tank. However, if one likes to have more fish they can take out the large nutrient reserve on the bottom of the tank to compensate which is another Pandoras box of a discussion.

Since you are dipping your toes into the SPS side of the pool slowly combining them with LPS, (which tend to like richer nutrient waters), I don't think you will have a full tilt boogie 100x turnover, mongo skimmer, Barebottom tank for a while in which the difference on a fish or two, feeding one large or three small feedings would make much of a difference......its a tool for fine tuning the coloration/growth. We just want to get you to be able to keep them alive, correct?

With this in mind, I would start with the more common and more forgiving varietals and see if you can keep them colored up and growing with your current fish load and feeding schedule. If it isn't back the feeding off first, (at one point I was feeding every other day), or decrease the number of fish or get a larger skimmer.

I wouldn't worry about changing too much too fast, but would start with the less exotic SPS and go from there fine tuning the water as you go as you up the bar and figure out if you like SPS or not......then one day you realize you have no sand, five powerheads, a skimmer that makes cups of coffee daily, and nothing but colored sticks, wondering what happened.

SPS are just like keeping LPS generally, but the degree of error is smaller and the forgiveness once that line is crossed the consequences are more severe. The husbandry techniques that you may be able to get away with in LPS/Softie tank could cause browning problems that take months to recover at best to RTN of the whole colony/tank at the worst.

Feeding amount and regularity combined with fish load may be a way to finetune coloration and won't be a concern right away in keeping them alive, if that is your motivation for the question.

[XxMutedYouthxX]

I had about 4 colonies of sps in the tank when I first started it and was running bare bottom and most of them started to dull out... I was deffinately able to keep them alive and with awesome polyp extension it just got old looking at brown sticks as you so put them lol... I cant help but love acros though, after being in the hobby 5 years you have to at least dabble... I am currently keeping a frag of orange plating montipora that has stayed extremely well colored for about 5 months now and this is what sparked my intrest again. Thanks for the information

[the_anti_honda]

Tyler,

Call me this week so we can hook up.

I have frags of all these you can try out since they have been in a system for a while and we will talk tank.

neon green A. Yongei
pink polyp with green tip Seriatophora hystrix
green skin/brown polyp green polyps on the tip Seriatophora hystrix
green/blue A. insignis
Scripps tri color A. Valida

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9736077#post9736077 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
However, if one likes to have more fish they can take out the large nutrient reserve on the bottom of the tank to compensate which is another Pandoras box of a discussion.

Can we get off this? Seriously? Its complete and utter crap, and everyone knows it. The reason some DSB people have nutrient troubles is because they dont have enough flow/a good skimmer.


I've got 12 fish in my 58, and no issues. I've got a friend with 30+ fish, some of them quite large, in a 72, and no nutrient issues. Both run sandbeds.





What you need for SPS is LOTS of flow, a big skimmer, and a way to keep your Ca/Alk spot on.

[TNTREEF]

I agree with Conley. I have a 78gal with 16 fish avg 2-4in ea. My nitrates are below 7. I feed 5-6 frozen cubes of mysis and ocean plankton from Hikari daily along with 3x a week spectrum + pellets. My fish are fat and happy. I also am running sand bed. Check out my gallery I have good color on my 30+ SPS corals.

[MrPike]

I don't have all that many fish, but I feed my corals quite a bit.(1/4 cup blender mush nightly). I also have a sandbed, and a ton of flow. (75X)

And no, this is not a softy tank.

[dots]

Read it again Rich........I am not on a BB crusade here......there is more than one way to achieve the proper nutrient balance. For starters, I hope we can agree on that is essesential for color and growth. Further more, this acceptable level has a small degree of error, to much....browning, too little....fading. As proof of this, look at all the "help my acros are browning or fading" threads.

Achieving this balance can be achieved in differnt ways to be succesfull, hence the reason we have so many successful tanks with different methods. Its all about tuning the system.

One can limit inputs into the system, eliminate the constants contained within the system, or control nutrient output from the system. All three can achieve optimum results and different tanks depend on one more than another or combination at different ratios.......which is why we see so many differnt types of successfull SPS tanks. They all achieve that balanced system differently.

My main point/theory: There is more than one way to skin the cat in controlling nutrients and that controlling/adjusting feeding is just one way.

[XxMutedYouthxX]

Thanks for all the input guys... I deffinately will give you a call John.... So im assuming I should be continuing to wet skim as I am doing now... As far as Calcium adding it isnt 100% neccesarry to have a Ca Reactor is it? my calcium generally stays between 480 and 460ppm, I am planning on putting a Ca Reactor on but probably not for a few months

[dots]

I think you got 'er.......

Calcium/Alk supplementation methods have options as well.......

This will aid you in making a decision for that when the time comes:

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9738514#post9738514 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Can we get off this? Seriously? Its complete and utter crap, and everyone knows it. The reason some DSB people have nutrient troubles is because they dont have enough flow/a good skimmer.


I've got 12 fish in my 58, and no issues. I've got a friend with 30+ fish, some of them quite large, in a 72, and no nutrient issues. Both run sandbeds.





What you need for SPS is LOTS of flow, a big skimmer, and a way to keep your Ca/Alk spot on.
LOL 20-30 fish in my 200-feed a lot and great flow no issues period!

[the_anti_honda]

Tyler,

As for the Ca/Alk issue I will explain all that too you as well as all thats going to happen here is a huge debate on who thinks what is the correct way.

Everyone has something to say about DSB,SSB,BB,RDSB. refuge vs. no refuge. T5 vs. MH! When it boils down to it no matter how nice your tank is what works for you may not work for someone else.

You have seen my 120 SPS tank and I didn't do a damn thing that anyone on RC told me to do.

[reefez]

I agree with Conley. I have a 78gal with 16 fish avg 2-4in ea. My nitrates are below 7. I feed 5-6 frozen cubes of mysis and ocean plankton from Hikari daily along with 3x a week spectrum + pellets. My fish are fat and happy. I also am running sand bed. Check out my gallery I have good color on my 30+ SPS corals. I looked at your gallery. Nice tank. Do you have any tangs in there?

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9741487#post9741487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
Read it again Rich........I am not on a BB crusade here......there is more than one way to achieve the proper nutrient balance.

If you're not on a barebottom crusade, then why make the comment " However, if one likes to have more fish they can take out the large nutrient reserve on the bottom of the tank to compensate which is another Pandoras box of a discussion."


Its offhand, flippant comments like those that cause all the issues.

[RichConley]

For the record, this is my friend Chris's tank. Its the 72 with 30 fish.

http://www.bostonreefers.org/FORUMS/showthread.php?t=43187

It doesnt look like theres that many fish there, but you can't see any of the chromis in that pic, and can only see one of the anthias.

[Serioussnaps]

if you put 30 fish in a 72 gallon tank, 95% of those tanks are going to have severe issues with nutrients(especially if you claim most are 2-4 inches).......that is the true exception....i would love to bring my nitrate test kit over to his house and give it a whirl....prolly off the charts despite what anyone says, however I know and agree with Rich that this can be done not BB....but you better have a DSB...put 30 fish in a 72 with a SSB and see what happens

Muted Youth.........think of it as a formula in that whatever you can pull out you put in again after you pull it out........NUTRIENT BALANCE is by far the most important thing after you get CA, ALK, SG, MG, TEMP, and PO4 down pat.

[dots]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9741487#post9741487 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots

One can limit inputs into the system, eliminate the constants contained within the system, or control nutrient output from the system.


I believe that the BB method achieves this and removes the constant nutrient baseline within the water column. My whole point in mentioning this was to show an example of the second method of nutrient control that I have found. This is why I mentioned it at all.

"the flippant" Pandoras box comment was a hint in less than obvious terms that this is a much debated comment and that I was not wanting to discuss nor bring the big, stinking Red Herring of a side tracker that it is, as the focus of the thread.
I was eluding to the point that it is a hot button as was mentioned Ca/Alk supplementation, Lighting and what ever else you can think of.

The funny thing is I am stating that there are DIFFERENT ways of controlling it and you are still jumping all over me. Twice you have insinuated and insulted me thinking I am on a soapbox for BB, when in fact it is you!!! This in turn gets my best type of responses: "I don't do that and Im just fine" Which is great.........but why don't you guys take a chance, and try to figure out why and more specificly how each methodology differs.

So do you want to know REALLY is wrong with this forum? People seemed to have stopped asking questions and trying to move forward and figure out not only what works, but WHY. People are divided into platforms and agendas much like in politics and we have Pro/Con: BB,DSB,SSB;T5/PC/MH;Reactors/Kalk/2-part etc....and all people are doing is becoming polarized in thier beliefs and are beginning to find any reason to shoot someone down if they make a comment about a "hot button" statement which is EXACTLY the situation here.

I am VERY disturbed by the dialogs I have seen as of recent and the way people are "categorizing" themselves and attempting to associate with one or the other. I can completly understand why people fondly refer to the "good ol days" now because there was only ONE way of doing things and now there are new trends and methods emerging that people don't agree with and are disturbed with the fact that it isn't a cohesive group of SPSers anymore with the grassroots networking.

I have a lot of respect for the people of this forum (SPS) because of the sensitivity and extreme technical and scientific knowledge it takes to be successful. I believe that because of this this group tends to be the innovators of the entire reefing hobby.......but to be inovators you can't rest on ones laurls and become complacent. I feel that there is no longer room or tolerance in this forum to ask questions, inovate, or ask the simple questions like WHY?. Or "dots why do you think that is true about x, y and z, because here is what I have found out."

The lack of inovation and open mindedness of trying to push the hobby forward disturbs me........I grow tired of the lack of tolerance, reading comprehension(which forces me to constantly write long drawn out examples for people to follow like bread crumbs)..........

I like that this hobby is new, challenging and the rules HAVE not been set in stone. I come here only to engage in thought provoking discussion ONLY, not to preach mantra or exude ego, or brag. Remember, there is always someone who is more successful in one form or another. I HIGHLY respect the people who I have learned from to get where I am and try to recognize them for it whenever possible. In return, what I do is I try to do just the same and help someone else achieve thier goals. I do this without ego everytime and I try to present what works for me and any other options without bias.....but I have my opinions on which I prefer.

Empathy and trying to figure out where people are comming from goes a long ways........I reread things contantly and edit and redit my comments to ensure I am saying what I want to..........but it has gotten so bad, it doesn't matter it seems. I am getting tired of defending myself in calm, rational matters, only to have illogical fallacies and agendas sidetrack what I am ultimatly trying to do.......HAVE FUN AND LEARN!!!!!

I suppose, if you don't believe me you can look at my post history and see what my character is if you have any doubts to this.

I really enjoy free flowing brainstorms such as this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1099855

But they are few and far between and finaly understand why people lurk instead of participating...........

Thanks, its been a stimulating exchange of open minded thought and exchange of experiences.

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9749437#post9749437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
I believe that the BB method achieves this and removes the constant nutrient baseline within the water column. My whole point in mentioning this was to show an example of the second method of nutrient control that I have found. This is why I mentioned it at all.

"the flippant" Pandoras box comment was a hint in less than obvious terms that this is a much debated comment and that I was not wanting to discuss nor bring the big, stinking Red Herring of a side tracker that it is, as the focus of the thread.
I was eluding to the point that it is a hot button as was mentioned Ca/Alk supplementation, Lighting and what ever else you can think of.

The funny thing is I am stating that there are DIFFERENT ways of controlling it and you are still jumping all over me. Twice you have insinuated and insulted me thinking I am on a soapbox for BB, when in fact it is you!!! This in turn gets my best type of responses: "I don't do that and Im just fine" Which is great.........but why don't you guys take a chance, and try to figure out why and more specificly how each methodology differs.

So do you want to know REALLY is wrong with this forum? People seemed to have stopped asking questions and trying to move forward and figure out not only what works, but WHY. People are divided into platforms and agendas much like in politics and we have Pro/Con: BB,DSB,SSB;T5/PC/MH;Reactors/Kalk/2-part etc....and all people are doing is becoming polarized in thier beliefs and are beginning to find any reason to shoot someone down if they make a comment about a "hot button" statement which is EXACTLY the situation here.

I am VERY disturbed by the dialogs I have seen as of recent and the way people are "categorizing" themselves and attempting to associate with one or the other. I can completly understand why people fondly refer to the "good ol days" now because there was only ONE way of doing things and now there are new trends and methods emerging that people don't agree with and are disturbed with the fact that it isn't a cohesive group of SPSers anymore with the grassroots networking.

I have a lot of respect for the people of this forum (SPS) because of the sensitivity and extreme technical and scientific knowledge it takes to be successful. I believe that because of this this group tends to be the innovators of the entire reefing hobby.......but to be inovators you can't rest on ones laurls and become complacent. I feel that there is no longer room or tolerance in this forum to ask questions, inovate, or ask the simple questions like WHY?. Or "dots why do you think that is true about x, y and z, because here is what I have found out."

The lack of inovation and open mindedness of trying to push the hobby forward disturbs me........I grow tired of the lack of tolerance, reading comprehension(which forces me to constantly write long drawn out examples for people to follow like bread crumbs)..........

I like that this hobby is new, challenging and the rules HAVE not been set in stone. I come here only to engage in thought provoking discussion ONLY, not to preach mantra or exude ego, or brag. Remember, there is always someone who is more successful in one form or another. I HIGHLY respect the people who I have learned from to get where I am and try to recognize them for it whenever possible. In return, what I do is I try to do just the same and help someone else achieve thier goals. I do this without ego everytime and I try to present what works for me and any other options without bias.....but I have my opinions on which I prefer.

Empathy and trying to figure out where people are comming from goes a long ways........I reread things contantly and edit and redit my comments to ensure I am saying what I want to..........but it has gotten so bad, it doesn't matter it seems. I am getting tired of defending myself in calm, rational matters, only to have illogical fallacies and agendas sidetrack what I am ultimatly trying to do.......HAVE FUN AND LEARN!!!!!

I suppose, if you don't believe me you can look at my post history and see what my character is if you have any doubts to this.

I really enjoy free flowing brainstorms such as this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1099855

But they are few and far between and finaly understand why people lurk instead of participating...........

Thanks, its been a stimulating exchange of open minded thought and exchange of experiences.

Your the man...you at work? Anyways, he did say "pandora's box" in a manner that he didnt want to discuss that for this very reason and bang....box opens and you **** the man off!:mixed:

[Denadai]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9738784#post9738784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TNTREEF
I agree with Conley. I have a 78gal with 16 fish avg 2-4in ea. My nitrates are below 7. I feed 5-6 frozen cubes of mysis and ocean plankton from Hikari daily along with 3x a week spectrum + pellets. My fish are fat and happy. I also am running sand bed. Check out my gallery I have good color on my 30+ SPS corals.

I´m realy surprise that you have good colors with nitrate near 7 ppm

The tank is beatiful !!

regards

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9748716#post9748716 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
if you put 30 fish in a 72 gallon tank, 95% of those tanks are going to have severe issues with nutrients(especially if you claim most are 2-4 inches).......that is the true exception....i would love to bring my nitrate test kit over to his house and give it a whirl....prolly off the charts despite what anyone says, however I know and agree with Rich that this can be done not BB....but you better have a DSB...put 30 fish in a 72 with a SSB and see what happens

Muted Youth.........think of it as a formula in that whatever you can pull out you put in again after you pull it out........NUTRIENT BALANCE is by far the most important thing after you get CA, ALK, SG, MG, TEMP, and PO4 down pat.

Snaps, did you look a the pics I linked to? Hes got a SSB, and no nitrate. And 30+ fish in a 72.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9749437#post9749437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dots
"the flippant" Pandoras box comment was a hint in less than obvious terms that this is a much debated comment and that I was not wanting to discuss nor bring the big, stinking Red Herring of a side tracker that it is, as the focus of the thread.
I was eluding to the point that it is a hot button as was mentioned Ca/Alk supplementation, Lighting and what ever else you can think of.

If its a hot topic, and you dont want to get into a debate about it, dont comment on it. You made a comment stating that sandbed tanks have nutrient issues. You have to expect responses from that. If you dont want responses, dont make the comment.

but why don't you guys take a chance, and try to figure out why and more specificly how each methodology differs.

Thats what we're trying to do. Blanket statements about sandbed tanks are contradictory to that aim.

So do you want to know REALLY is wrong with this forum? People seemed to have stopped asking questions and trying to move forward and figure out not only what works, but WHY.

That I COMPLETELY agree with you on, and it drives me nuts. Everyone is too lazy, and just wants someone to tell them "whats best" as opposed to actually figuring out what is happening.

Sand bed tanks dont have nutrient issues. Reefers who dont understand what theyre doing have nutrient issues. The most common occurance, is the people who think they can run a sandbed, with little to no flow, and a tiny skimmer. For some reason people keep pushing that you can run a sandbed tank without nutrient export, and thats total crap. Thats where the "sandbed myth" comes from.



Dots, I run multiple tanks, and I run both BB and DSB, and a SSB tank. Honestly, if properly maintained (tons of flow, good skimming) there is functionally no difference between them. 99% of nutrient issues are caused by inadequate flow and skimming, not substrate choice.


I just get really ****ed off when people make blanket statements about either method, because theyre almost always wrong.


FWIW, my seahorse tank has 30+x turnover, so I'm a big believer in flow.

[the_anti_honda]

RichConley-

You are one of the VERY few people on this forum I even listen to anymore. The post above me I could not agree more with.

We should set up a tank with marbles on the bottom of it just to prove a point it doesn't matter what substrate you use.

[rekn]

i like bb due to the ammou8nt of flow you cana chieve. i just hate the look of it

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9749817#post9749817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Snaps, did you look a the pics I linked to? Hes got a SSB, and no nitrate. And 30+ fish in a 72.

Checking out the link right now.:D

[Serioussnaps]

Ok checked it out...great tank and does have a heavy fish load in it...very heavy....albeit I can tell you there AINT 30 fish in there.

Despite the fact there arent actually 30 fish(i would be willing to bet an appendage of your choice) there is a huge bioload for a 72 g tank.........thus Rich does make his point very well.

[RichConley]

At the point of the pic, there were 6 chromis, and 6 anthias, and I think you can see a total of one anthias. THeres also a bunch of leapords and halichoeres wrasses, not all of which are awake at the same times.



Still, whatever, theres a ton of fish (including a trigger, and a large tang), and the tank looks great. If you look, hes got a TON of flow (bout 6500+gph), and a decent sized downdraft skimmer.


I wont disagree that BB does make it easier to get the necessary flow needed to run that sort of system, but its not that difficult to run with sand. ( i've got a pair of maximods running dumas 3004s in a 58 with sand)


It all comes down to Export vs. Import with regards to nutrients. Sand/BB/Refugium/plenums/waterchanges/space aliens abducting things/whatever, its all just a big smokescreen. People need to understand that. THeres no right way, and as long as you get there, you didnt do it wrong.


I think thats the whole problem with the BB/DSB/Zeovit/sugar/etc thing. People are looking for someone to tell them the right way to do things, instead of trying to figure out what their animals need and trying to understand the systems we build and how they work. We simply do not have enough knowledge at this point to say "use this system, run these pumps and this skimmer, and you'll have great SPS". Its just not that simple. People need to observe, figure out whats going on, and where the bottlenecks are, and fix those things.


Theres no "SPS for Dummies" at this point. You need to try to understand whats going on.