Death....Interceptor???

[bluetmax]

Today has been ****ty to say the least. I need some advice from anyone with experience, because I am at my wits end. I purchased a few nwe Acroporas the day before yesterday and noticed they were infected with "red bugs." After spending hours on this board and other parts of the net looking for a solution, I went out and finally convinced a vet to sell me Interceptor. I took half of a 23mg tablet and put it in 2.5 gallons of saltwater with a Rio 600 and a heater to maintain temperature. Before I put the corals in, they were fully acclimated to the tank water, and expanding BEAUTIFULLY. I was told six hours was the alotted time for the treatment, and at four hours I looked in and the damn things were bleached.....I literally feel sick to my stomach over this. Where did I o wrong??? Can anybody please help me figure out what I did/didn't do? I know thatg the "bugs" are almost inevitable, especially with someone as obsessed with the Acropora as I am. What do I do next time?

[JB NY]

Bleached? Not RTN? If so did the heater raise the temp too high. Acros can stay in a bag for longer than 4 hours. I've used interptor a lot and never had a corals have any problems with it. half a tablet fof 2.5 gallons is a lot though. I think I only used a little less than one tablet for my whole 280 gallon system.

A full table is supposed to be good for 380 gallons.

[oosurfin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9742114#post9742114 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
Bleached? Not RTN? If so did the heater raise the temp too high. Acros can stay in a bag for longer than 4 hours. I've used interptor a lot and never had a corals have any problems with it. half a tablet fof 2.5 gallons is a lot though. I think I only used a little less than one tablet for my whole 280 gallon system.

A full table is supposed to be good for 380 gallons.

i used 1 tablet for 3 treatments on my 135 but ive also read about people using 10x the recommended dosage with no problems. ill agree that you used a very high dose and could be the cause. the heater could also be the cause. also a little side note. the active ingredient in the interceptor pill is not evenly distributed through out the pill so you should grind up a whole pill and then divide it from there. i used a mortar and pestle for my pill and really worked it into a fine fine powder.

[BLKTANG]

The only thing i can tell u is that next time dose the whole system,not just in a bucket.I just went through the RB thing & dosed the entire system,& only saw RB's on 1 coral.Those bad boys r gone,& i didnt loose a single coral to RB's or the interceptor treatment.

[bluetmax]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9742210

How do you go about dividing it up once you have crushed the pill??

[MiddletonMark]

That's a LOT of interceptor.

I'd also wonder about the heater. I've left my corals without heat, just a powerhead for 7-8 hours for new-to-me frags/corals and not had an issue with about a double dose. Without a heat/water-quality issue [if you can rule that out] - I'd look more towards the interceptor, too.

[slojmn]

Well, that was me that suggested 1/2 the pill. I just did this treatment last week as I prescribed with two small coral colonies, I grinded it up really well and had no problem what so ever. Hmmmm, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I just got lucky and that is to much interceptor. I feel terrible for you :(.

[MiddletonMark]

What works for one, doesn't work for all ... at least in this hobby.

Don't get down about giving advice that worked for you :)

[prodman]

I had some corals react badly to inteceptor the last time I dipped. I placed frags in bags with high concentration of interceptor and left them in the sump for 12+ hours. They looked very bad when I took them out. I placed them in the tank with little hope for a recovery. A few days later polyps were visable where I thought it was dead. Now they are healthy and happy. Dont give up on them.

[bluetmax]

I used the Interceptor that is in the white box - 32mg. The corals were put in bags full of my tank water after being acclimated. Every four hours (even during the middle of the night) the water was replaced in almost its entirety. Basically I have concluded that I OD'd in an amount that was so extreme that it caused the corals to bleach. I can come to no other logical conclusion, because the corals looked fantastic and were wide open before being put into the dip. This was my first go round at this, and unfortunately for these living creatures moere than me, I blew it. From what I gather I should have ground the pill and used .025mg if I were dosing a ten gallon tank. I blame no one but myself, and obviously there is something to this treatment because of its popularity and success. I just pray for the sake of my livestock that I can get it right next time. Here are several links to different threads if anyone would like to read them. I posted this in sveral areas, so if anyone wants to follow it up to the fullest extenet, here ya go:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9743324#post9743324

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9743354#post9743354

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9743482#post9743482

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9743324#post9743324

This is what Borneman has to say, with an internal link that I assume was originated by one of the first to try this:

http://www.ericborneman.com/Tegastes-content/Treatment.html

FWIW: Temp. remained constant throughout tratment.

[slojmn]

Dustin,
Again my apologies...as I said I did this exact dosage recently and all was well. I already see one issue. I use the 23mg tab...this is for large dogs, while the smaller size pills I have are for smaller dogs. The smaller size pills I have don't have the white backing on them stating their milligram dosage so I am unsure what it actually is. I have never seen a extra large pill, the 32 mg. I was unaware that there were even larger pills than the 23 mg. Everyone I have talked to has always refered to the 23 mg as the large dog size. If there is indeed an extra large pill at 32 mg I had no idea and that definately is not a good thing. So my bad there...I used 1/2 of the 23mg pill and probably dodged a bullet. I have read a number of places that really large doses 100x's shouldn't bother the corals...obviously you have found that not to be true. Again my apologies.

[bluetmax]

Just realized a mistake!!!!! It was the 23mg tab. I hit the numbers wrong....Sorry.

[slojmn]

Ahhh, well at least we were on the same page there, whew. Did you ditch the corals? Just curious if they may make a recovery in time or were they a total loss?

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9742255#post9742255 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oosurfin
also a little side note. the active ingredient in the interceptor pill is not evenly distributed through out the pill so you should grind up a whole pill and then divide it from there. i used a mortar and pestle for my pill and really worked it into a fine fine powder.

That makes no sense. How could they possibly make up a large batch of this stuff, then form it into pills, and get the exact same amount of meds in each pill yet have that med uneavenly distributed through the pill :confused: That would mean they would have to add the med to each pill specifically.


Didn't Alan to a little mini experiment to determine the toxicity of interceptor on various organisms at high doses, including corals?

[bluetmax]

I put the corals in a high area of flow in the bottom of the tank. I have it under a 400 watt halide so there really are no lower light areas. I took a turey baster to the dead tissue. Some polyps still are in the "grooves", but whether or not they are dead......? Maybe God will smile on me. lol

[distallassazn]

i treated 120 gal tank with 1/3 tablet with no problems. I didnt even do a water change after 6 hours, ive just turned on the skimmer. The only thing i lost was a peppermint shrimp and maybe and acro crab. My fire shrimp made it through the entire treatment. All i have to say is that my acro are all doing fine and polyping out.

i dont think its the interceptor that cause the problem, it maybe just that the acro are not healthy to start out with or some parameter of you water is unstable.

[Justin/TiV]

next time just treat the whole system. I don't think it was too much interceptor. I bet it was moving them into another environment. And a heater in there too...almost guarantee thats what went wrong.

I bet they pull through though. I've gotten corals that were almost bleached from shipping, and they did fine.

[bluetmax]

These acros came from two mother colonies that were eight and six years old and larger than a basktball (thats probably an understatement). All other acros and SPS are fine. I am thinking the corals probably responded like we would have to too much of something that could help in moderate amounts. Water quality is excellent. I tested it today.....I'm just frustrated, but after looking at what happened at VA Tech. today, I see it as a minor event and that I have a lot to be thankful for. I just hate it for the animals.

[Oldude]

When I treated my tank I used 1.5 large pills for 200 gals and left it for 6 days with the skimmer running and then did a water change. Killed the bugs and the hermits but the shrimp were ok and I still had a large pod population afterwards. Haven't seen any bugs since. I also have a few dragon face pipefish in case I missed any but I haven't seen any sign of the rb's in months. I now use about 1/3 of a large pill in about 2 gallons for an hour if I am soaking acro's before they go in the main display. Never had a problem.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9745307#post9745307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by distallassazn
i treated 120 gal tank with 1/3 tablet with no problems. I didnt even do a water change after 6 hours, ive just turned on the skimmer. The only thing i lost was a peppermint shrimp and maybe and acro crab. My fire shrimp made it through the entire treatment. All i have to say is that my acro are all doing fine and polyping out.

i dont think its the interceptor that cause the problem, it maybe just that the acro are not healthy to start out with or some parameter of you water is unstable.


Theres a big difference between 1/3 of a pill for 120g and 1/2 of a pill for 2 gallons.

You dosed at 1 pill per 360 gallons. He dosed at 1 pill per 4 gallons. He basically had 100 times as high a dose.

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9745527#post9745527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Oldude
When I treated my tank I used 1.5 large pills for 200 gals and left it for 6 days with the skimmer running and then did a water change. Killed the bugs and the hermits but the shrimp were ok and I still had a large pod population afterwards. Haven't seen any bugs since. I also have a few dragon face pipefish in case I missed any but I haven't seen any sign of the rb's in months. I now use about 1/3 of a large pill in about 2 gallons for an hour if I am soaking acro's before they go in the main display. Never had a problem.

Strange. All my pods, shrimps, crabs died. I'd be weirded out if pods lived.

[oosurfin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9745087#post9745087 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
That makes no sense. How could they possibly make up a large batch of this stuff, then form it into pills, and get the exact same amount of meds in each pill yet have that med uneavenly distributed through the pill :confused: That would mean they would have to add the med to each pill specifically.


Didn't Alan to a little mini experiment to determine the toxicity of interceptor on various organisms at high doses, including corals?

i honestly wish i had a link to the post i read this in because it explained it in terms i could not. my very basic understanding of it was that the active ingredient did not settle evenly in the individual pill which was why you should not break a pill in half and dose it that way but instead grind the whole pill and divide the powder. to me it didnt make much sense either but it was posted by either a pharmacologist or chemist of some sort. wish i could give more specific details.

[kirstenk]

Could the container you dosed in have been contaminated?

[kwl1763]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9747776#post9747776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oosurfin
i honestly wish i had a link to the post i read this in because it explained it in terms i could not. my very basic understanding of it was that the active ingredient did not settle evenly in the individual pill which was why you should not break a pill in half and dose it that way but instead grind the whole pill and divide the powder. to me it didnt make much sense either but it was posted by either a pharmacologist or chemist of some sort. wish i could give more specific details.

Total crap, I work for the manufacturer and while this is true there is variation on a microscopic level as other have mentioned they are mixed in huge batches then dispensed as pills. Whatever "settling" occurs is so minor it is truly a non issue. This is a true rumor mill disinformation thing I have read multiple places. This is all tested before a product is released. There are standards for active ingredient concentration gradients down to 10% of the pill (or even lower sometimes). Whatever chemist or pharamcist was probably talking on a very smal scale (microscopic) and it was either interpreted wrong or he incorrectly extrapolated that into a full pill.


100x dose would be my guess at the issue. Also I would suggest always adding an airstone for circulation and oxygenation.

[bluetmax]

The container used has been used several times before for water changes.....It never leaves my cabinet. I find it hard to believe it was contaminated.

[SDguy]

BTW, did I miss it in this thread, was it after all bleaching that occured or RTN?

[bluetmax]

At this point I am going to say bleaching.....Some polyps appear to still be in the "nooks" but there is no expansion after 24 hours, so I really wouldn't know whether to say RTN or not.

[slojmn]

Hold out Dustin, I had a coral that looked dead...really dead and I was to lazy to get it out of the tank for a few weeks (not like me at all). Then I noticed polyps one day, I was shocked...within a month or so the color began to emerge. A year later it is turning into a very unique and cool stag, green/yellow/ purple tips. Very healthy. My fingers are crossed for you.

[oosurfin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9748919#post9748919 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kwl1763
Total crap, I work for the manufacturer and while this is true there is variation on a microscopic level as other have mentioned they are mixed in huge batches then dispensed as pills. Whatever "settling" occurs is so minor it is truly a non issue. This is a true rumor mill disinformation thing I have read multiple places. This is all tested before a product is released. There are standards for active ingredient concentration gradients down to 10% of the pill (or even lower sometimes). Whatever chemist or pharamcist was probably talking on a very smal scale (microscopic) and it was either interpreted wrong or he incorrectly extrapolated that into a full pill.


100x dose would be my guess at the issue. Also I would suggest always adding an airstone for circulation and oxygenation.

well id much rather be set strait than to have misinformation and then spread it around. either i missed something while reading it or like you said it could have been said in a way that falsely applied this to the pill as a whole. i really wish i could find that thread now :\

[highquality]

I thought i read many times that a high dose for a short time does not kill the redbugs. anyone know if this type of dip works?
Also im thinking 1/8 of a pill for 50 gallons??? anyone?

[SDguy]

I dip for 6 hours. Has worked for me.

[Justin/TiV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9747618#post9747618 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SDguy
Strange. All my pods, shrimps, crabs died. I'd be weirded out if pods lived.

agree 100%, if you have copepods live, thats not a good sign...red bugs ARE copepods. You prolly skimmed most of the medication out by leaving it running.

[Justin/TiV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9747776#post9747776 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by oosurfin
i honestly wish i had a link to the post i read this in because it explained it in terms i could not. my very basic understanding of it was that the active ingredient did not settle evenly in the individual pill which was why you should not break a pill in half and dose it that way but instead grind the whole pill and divide the powder. to me it didnt make much sense either but it was posted by either a pharmacologist or chemist of some sort. wish i could give more specific details.

I remember this thread...but that was people speculating. From what I remember people were saying this is not true...cause vets and doctors have people break pills in half for prescription all the time. And even if that were the case....crushing the whole thing, then splitting it up wouldn't necessarily make it any more even....

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9757231#post9757231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin/TiV
agree 100%, if you have copepods live, thats not a good sign...red bugs ARE copepods. You prolly skimmed most of the medication out by leaving it running.

Yeah, I left my skimmer and UV off anywhere from 8-12 hours during each tank treatment.

[highquality]

Bluetmax: 100% water changes are quite stressfull on corals. And if they were not acclimated to the water in the first place... And that was a heck of a lot of pill in there. I just did a treatment with 1 / 24 of a pill in 15 gallons of water. I was treating the blackbugs on montis but much the same. Im sure you will do fine from now on. Although I would take it easy on those water changes.

[highquality]

They are much smaller and a different type. Maybe that has something to do with some surviving. Just a thought

[bluetmax]

They were changed out with tank water that they were already acclimated to.....The water that came out of the bags was flushed, because I feared introducing the bugs back to my tank if I dumped it back. Do you still think that was a bad idea?? I'm just trying to be sure that I do not make this mistake again.

[chadfarmer]

i have dose a single pill in my 58 gallon

i have done this more than 4 times and nothignhas gone wrong

[highquality]

how long was the treatment for and what was the cause to do more than four times? did they come back or get reintroduced?
bluetmax: I just know for sure that mixing fresh saltwater and doing to large of water change is stressfull. It was probably just stress along with 10 times the amount that chadfarmer dosed..lol
I mean its not all that uncommon for a acro to bleach or rtn
I know that one guy said that amount worked fine for him, but lowering that dose should do fine and it has proven itself to others many times.