New tank... I need help!

[NeveSSL]

Ok, it looks like the wife is going to let me get my coworkers tank. :D

But I'm not sure what to do!

I'm getting an awesome deal... tank (50 gallon), stand, and PC lighting system (in time I'll put in T5s), 60lbs of rock, and all of his aragonite for $150. :D

What will I need to do first?

I will DEFINITELY be on a budget, so what is the minimum I can get by with?

Here is what I'm thinking so far...

I am wanting to modify it quite a bit. He's been using a canister filter, and I'd prefer to drill it out and add a sump and skimmer before adding fish. The thing is, I'm not sure how long this will take as our finances may be tight.

So, I can just put the LR in a tub with a heater and PH for a while, maybe give the invertebrates away for now and buy some later.

Or, if it may be a while, I can postpone putting everything in a tub and set the tank up (maybe without substrate, too) and enjoy my inverts and maybe a fish until I'm ready to buy. I'd probably go ahead and get a 10 gallon setup from walmart to use as a house for the fish (I may not be able to resist getting one or two if the tank is stable :D ) and inverts while the LR is in a tub and then use the 10 gallon as a QT tank after the 50 is up and running.

Also, what should I do about the substrate?

I would kind of like to keep it. It's a mix of crushed coral and aragonite, so I would probably sift the coral out and clean all of it rather well. But thats potentially labor intensive and for a whole lot of nothing if silica sand is as good as aragonite... or maybe I can clean it and sell it... lol.

And last but not least, what is the minimum I should consider? I'm thinking maybe a refractometer (although I may have to go with the swing-arm devices first), a thermometer (he may give me one with it... I'm not sure), and a pH meter. If things turn out well, I may bypass individual components and try to go ahead and get an AC Jr. I'm also going to need salt, obviously. I don't think I'm going to be able to get an RODI right off.

Ok, so to sum what I'm asking:

What should I do about upgrading the tank? Tub now or tub later?

And what in order of importance is the least I can get away with for now? I think the absolutely most I can spend is $200 on extras for now, but thats an absolute most and I need to keep it as low as possible. And I've got a feeling salt is going to be a large part of my first expenses. :D

Any help is MUCH appreciated! I think I'll be picking it up next weekend and I would like to be as ready as possible!

Also, any tips on where to get the goods would be awesome. :)

Thanks so much!

Brandon

[TitansFan]

Congrats on the tank!!
I would first decide about the drilling before I went to far with anything.

You have ... correct?:
1. tank, stand
2. light
3. rock and sand
4. powerheads

hmm $200 to spend. I would get me a corallife skimmer. Someone here on the boards has one for cheap. It can be hung on the back or set in a sump. A thermometer, heater, refractometer, and salifert test kits. The next purchase soon as I could would be the RO machine. With the RO machine you could start buying salt and mixing your own. For now I would buy water from the LFS.

Did I miss anything?

[Angela Short]

If you are a member of MTRC emerald bay sells 200 gallon boxes of IO for $40 flat. Can't beat the price but its only good for members. I would thinkm ore about using a hang on the back overflow. I saw where a guy just broke his new cube trying to drill it :(. Good priceon the set up!

I have almost all silica sand in my 270 with no problems at all. I would go that route way before I would re-use aragonite/CC mix. It tends to trap deitrus and will add to phoshates which will give you alage problems.

I think a controller is a luxury at this point I would invest in other things first :) JMO I would spent the money on a good skimmer (used) or a auto top off or something and just get a manuel PH test for $15 from salifert instead of a meter. Once its stable PH should flux a ton... Another luxury IMO. Nice to have but on a tight budget..... I bet someone even has a swing arm they may give you that would work fine if you are a average reefer. Sorry gave mine to a freind already. Getting into full blown tank of the month SPS tanks you would need to be more accurate and you can keep an eye on its acuracy with a freinds refractometer at meetings. Mine runs 1.5 PPM to high, or low can't remember.

[crumbletop]

Sounds like a great start :)

Lets see. If you want to go with a sump, you'll need a return pump and some plumbing pieces. For that, I think you are looking in the $60-$70 range for new. I recommend an Ocean Runner 2500 or something like a Mag 3 maybe. The OR is really quiet, uses very little power and puts out a bunch of flow. I think danieljames is selling some tanks for $1/gallon, so you could get a sump (or get a rubbermaid tub for a sump) for around $20. Some silicone and some material for a baffle or three and you are looking at ~$100 for the sump + plumbing + return. Then a heater, thermometer, maybe a fan for when it starts to heat up, and some test kits, and you'll be at around $150-$200. You'll also need salt for mixing up water, and a bucket or two to do the mixing in. Some tubing to siphon out the tank, and initially will either need to purchase RO water from an LFS, or if you are going to use tap you'll need some Prime or similar to dechlorinate. If the setup you are getting already comes with the heater, etc, then you are going to be in pretty good shape.

I suggest maybe getting this kind of minimal setup going such as mentioned above, and then saving and keeping your eye out for good deals when people sell. You can usually pick stuff up for around 50 cents on the dollar that way. Go slowly if you can.

[NeveSSL]

Thanks for the replies, guys!

So, gathering from all of the replies, you guys think I should go ahead and get the sump going?

Ok, so here is what I found out:

EVERYTHING that is included is as follows:

50 gallon tank and stand (36"x18"x17"), a glass top with compact fluorescents (which means T5s will be on the list sooner than later :) ), 2 power heads, a heater "of my choosing", an undergravel filter, and an eheim canister filter.

I'm thinking the compact fluorescents will have to go definitely before I get any corals, but will probably be ok for now... what do you guys think?

I'm glad it comes with 2 power heads... I'll be using one immediately to put the rock into a tub with a heater... so I may try to get two heaters from him if he doesn't mind... it kind of sounds like he has a surplus anyways... hehe.

I am concerned that this tank has been freshwater in the past. Its presently in storage, I just found out, but he's giving me the rock out of his 45 hex that is "stacked literally to the top" with rock. This makes me wonder if its had copper in it before. Isn't there a way that I can clean it to get most harmful crap out of it that may be in it?

I've got a feeling he won't be giving me any inverts, but thats perfectly fine... I'll probably do an order from KeysCritters and/or IndoPacific Sea Farms, anyways. :)

Any recommendations on what and how many inverts to get when the time comes hopefully in a couple of weeks?

I think I'd like to do a 29 on the sump because I would also like to have a refugium (plans for an eventual mandarin if I can get my pods up and/or it will eat prepared foods ;) ). I'll have to look for a used one or, if worse comes to worse, I'll go pickup one at glasscages. Do you guys think 17" is too deep, though? I've also considered doing three $10 10 gallon walmart tanks side by side... not end to end, but side by side since this setup is 18" deep. They're 20", but I'm hoping the stand may be a little deeper than the tank. I like that option better as its cheaper, but would require more plumbing and drilling.

On the other hand, I could try to DIY an acrylic one... I'd be a bit concerned with the cost, though, and I also don't know that I would trust what I'd build with holding quite a bit of water... heh. This would be PERFECT, though: http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/e/sump_model_e.html

I just can't justify spending $400 for it. Maybe I'll do the three 10 gallons... hmmm... crap... now I'm just mumbling... lol.

I can get Oceanic salt from PetSmart for $40 per 200 gallons here in the boro... actually they may not have it in stock... hmmm... I plan on joining MTRC, I've just been waiting until I get a tank... so I think now may be the time.

Ok, sorry this post is so scattered... my brain is running amuck right now! :D

I've been planning this since December, and the time has finally come!

Thanks for your replies, guys and gals (not forgetting you, Angela ;) )!

Brandon

[NeveSSL]

Ok, so I checked with PetSmart and they have the oceanic in stock and its $48.99, which the difference would be the cost of gas for me to go to Nashville, anyways! :) I am going to make a trip to Emerald Bay soon, though... I've not been yet and I'm really looking forward to checking it out.

Thanks again!

Brandon

[crumbletop]

Given all the questions, I think I may change what I was recommending. I think I'd do this without a sump to begin with and keep the whole setup very simple. Sumps are nice, but they add complexity and expense. They also add to the learning curve and it would likely be best to get a feel for salt water with a simple setup. I'd use the LR, the tank (if it has never had copper and looks good), the powerheads, the heater, and the lights. The PCs will be fine for fish only, softies, and even some SPS (lower light montiporas). I'd ditch the undergravel filter.

Then, while getting the hang of SW with a simple system, I'd research and plan for a better setup.

[NeveSSL]

Hmmm....

Ok. I knew to get rid of the undergravel filter.

I've been researching and planning for a while, the problem is that I was planning on a 75 gallon. :) So the size of the sump has me a bit thrown off. I may give him a call and see if he has any smaller tanks I could use as a sump. I think I'd rather go ahead and do a sump now (with now being this summer :) ). I may go ahead and leave it as is for a while. I'll probably go ahead and put in a 2" or so sand bed (I'm thinking about running a remote DSB) and probably get a hang on back skimmer that I can (hopefully) place on my sump when the time comes or upgrade if necessary. I'd feel better using a skimmer over a canister filter, though, especially if I'm unsure of copper.

I've got school work to do for now, but I've got a lot of the week to research some more. :)

Thanks!

Brandon

[NeveSSL]

Anybody know anything about the Finnex skimmers? Specifically, the PS-60?

Brandon

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9787542#post9787542 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by crumbletop
Given all the questions...

Brandon,

I want to make sure what I said didn't come across as meaning that you shouldn't ask questions. You should keep on asking them. What I meant was that when I started out from fresh water, the learning curve was really steep. I started off with a simpler system and think that is probably the way to go. That doesn't mean you couldn't do a more complex one, though.

I don't have experience with the finex skimmers. For an inexpensive skimmer, I think the one TitansFan recommended may be okay. I think DMBillies has one, so you can ask him about it (the super skimmer).

[TitansFan]

Also just a tip on Petsmart... They should match online prices. It is corporate policy. Just find the salt as cheap as you can online and carry in the advertisement.

Also before you decide to drill that tank I would be sure its not tempered glass. An external overflow might be an easy way for you to start out.

I don't know anything about the Finnex skimmers. I looked at that one and it looks a heck of a lot like the corralife superskimmers.

Some of the early mistakes I made..
1. not getting GOOD test kits
2. using tap water
3. wasting a lot of money on things form the LFS I didn't ask here first if I needed. All that stuff is now in the big box in the corner of the garage. What a bunch of thrown away money. :(

[NeveSSL]

Great idea on the salt at Petsmart! Thanks for the tip!

What are some good external overflows? If I remember correctly, I think they're a bit pricey, though, aren't they?

Maybe the tank will be name-brand. If I could get away with only drilling the sump that would be good.

Oh... and I think I'll be getting a 30 gallon used tank for the sump. :)

Also, who has the best prices on the salifert test kits?

I'll have to use tap water to begin with, but an RO/DI is high on the list. Speaking of such, I need to make a list to organize this a bit more.

crumbletop: Its all good. :)

I think I'm going to stick with a sump as thats what I've been planning the whole time and thats what I'm most familiar with.

So the corallife skimmers are inexpensive? I'll google them. :)

I'm also looking at the Jebos... it seems like they can be amazing with just a mod or two...

We'll see!

I think I'm going to leave everything in a tub for a bit until I can get this stuff sorted out. I'm almost hoping he doesn't give me the inverts... lol. But I'll take them if he offers them... I may put them in a 10 gallon from walmart and make it my QT tank as previously mentioned. We'll see.

I think more than anything I'm just going to have to dive in and make the best of it! And hopefully with the least amount of casualties possible! I got my freshwater tank up and running with only loosing two fish to ich my second week of owning it, so maybe my venture to saltwater will be as smooth. :)

Thanks again!

Brandon

[DMBillies]

I have a coralife 65 super skimmer. I got it used as part of a tank deal and I've kept it up and running on various things. It's currently on my 92 corner bow softie tank until I can afford to upgrade (I'm looking at the tunze 9010 because I've heard people have had decent luck with them and they have a really small footprint which is important because I could only fit a 20 gal. sump underneath). At any rate, I'd say it's a pretty good little skimmer for the price. I've often been surprised by how much it produces. That said...

1. I get quite a bit of microbubbles out of mine. I've found the bubble trap they include does not work much for me. So I just sent the return from the skimmer back into my bubble trap from the tank return.

2. I don't recommend using any skimmer as a HOB unless it has a way of redirecting water back into the tank once the skimmer cup fills. There are all kinds of things that can cause a skimmer to go crazy and it took me getting about 10 gallons of water on my office carpet to make me pay good attention to that. It looks like you want to go with a sump, so it may not be a problem, but if you change your mind, think about it.

3. If you want to eventually keep SPS and you know that now, I think you should probably buy a nice big skimmer and then not have to upgrade again. Most skimmers are way over rated and I'm in the camp that it is hard to over skim. In other words, the 65 SS might not be big enough for a system that will be closer to 75 gallons total. I have never had a 125 SS, but I imagine it isn't all that different, just bigger.

4. There are better skimmers out there for sure, so if you think you'll be sticking with this tank for a long time, it might be better to save. On the other hand, if you are looking at this as just a way to get your feet wet, then it might be better to go the cheaper route and then start saving for the dream tank as you learn.

[NeveSSL]

Thanks Brian. I do think this is going to be a stepping tank. I think I may just go with one of the Jebos and modify it. I'm still researching but it looks like guys have had some good luck doing that! And they're inexpensive. :)

That makes sense about the HOB skimmers. But I'm gonna be able to get a 30 gallon for $30 off of here, so I'll probably just go ahead and do the sump now. :)

Thanks again guys!

If anyone has anything else to say, please feel free to chime in!

Brandon

[Angela Short]

I would hold out for a litle bit on a skimmer and look for used. I ran skimmerless for a long time and my nano thrived skimmerless for 2+ years. I know jfolly is going to have a HOB skimmer for sell soon used and they are always deals to be had in the selling forum. Hold out a few months and save over half what a new one would cost :)

Also you may want to check but I was thinking the IO buckets only mixed up 160 gallons? I may not be right though...

[DMBillies]

Angela,
I think they are talking about the boxes of IO, not buckets, and unless I'm wrong they have 4 x 50 gallon bags in them. At least I hope...

[Angela Short]

You can only get the boxes at Ebay and they are not suposse to be sold to the public I think (shhh) they are profesional size? Petsmart caries the buckets which are 160 gallons. But yes the boxes the club gets are 4 50 gallon bags :)

Also drsfostersmith has great prices on the buckets of IO and its a flat rate shipping. The buckets they sell as well as petsmart are only 160 gallons, I checked. Foster smith has them for $31.99 (petsmart $35.99) which is $ .20 a gallon, the same price as emerald bay. Since you need alot of other start up things like a mag float (get the 125), hydrometer, buffer, a small PH for water changes (maxi jet 1200 is my favorite which they sell in a water change kit) food, veggi clip, if you do a angle ect, ect, ect... you may be better off just getting it all at one place. Also this little thing looks pretty neat to get some alternating flow...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004+113782

They also have a wave maker power strip pretty cheap. You will need a power strip or 2 (or 4 in my case :)) anyways so the one you can make waves with may be a good choice for your size tank and set up.

You need to measure the stand and make sure a 29 will fit under there. I couldn't even get a 20 long under my 80 without dropping it in from the top before the tank went on.

[Angela Short]

Here is a salifert price comparison list :)

http://www.geocities.com/hans1976/Salifert.html

You will need
PH
Nitrate
nitrite
Ammonia
Alk
to start out with Calcium shouldn't be a big deal unless you start getting alot of stony things and clams.

Also SWF.com has all of them onsale right now at great prices and a refractometer for $39 so since they are so cheap I would maybe think about just getting a refractometer on second thought. I know test kits can get expensive but a mistake I made was not getting them in the begining and just thinking my params were OK. Bad choice IMO. Start slow and get the basics bought first before fish :).

Here is a link to SWF if it lets me put it in...
http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/category_display.php?keywords=&category_search=6&root_parent_id=6&inc_subcat=1&search_in_description=1&parent_category=0&x=5&y=14

[NeveSSL]

Thanks Angela!

I think I'm going to put together a list of necessities this evening. I may very well wait on some skimmers. I think I'll probably go with a coralife.

A major question, though:

What should I use for filtration? Will the rocks be enough for the inverts? Or should I wait to setup the main tank and maybe put the inverts (depending on how many there are, if any, of course) in a 10 gallon QT Wal Mart tank with a bit of rock and a power filter for filtration and put the rest of the rock in a tub until a little later this summer?

Also, what if I want to get a fish? Or should I just wait? I'd like to have one (specifically a scissor tail goby ;) ), but my tank being setup to my likings is much more important than fish right now.

Thanks again!

Brandon

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9792472#post9792472 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Angela Short
Here is a salifert price comparison list :)

http://www.geocities.com/hans1976/Salifert.html

You will need
PH
Nitrate
nitrite
Ammonia
Alk
to start out with Calcium shouldn't be a big deal unless you start getting alot of stony things and clams.


I think you could go with cheaper tests for the nitrite and ammonia. I hardly ever measure those, and when doing so I am really only interested in ball park #s. Nitrate is good to know if you are keeping corals, otherwise ball park numbers are okay for that one as well.

I think that is also good advice from Angela on starting up skimmerless and waiting + saving for a good deal on used to pop up. They seem to pop up fairly frequently...

[Angela Short]

$9.99 and $11.99 are pretty cheap IMO since they are on sale. No disrespect crumbletop ;).I do have a cheap Aquarium pharmacuticals ammonia I kept downstairs with the QT when my 80 was upstairs and it was like $8.99 I think... Once the tank is cycled you will hardley ever test for those also but just starting out and setting up from scratch with a cycle having good kits can only help.

Also fostersmith has sand at a good deal also if you are dead set on going with a calcium based kind and doing a sand bed. Throw it in on the lump shipping while you are at it.

[crumbletop]

You are right -- those are cheap. I use the dip stick tests for my QT tank. I don't even have a nitrite test, I don't think (except on a test strip).

[NeveSSL]

Anybody on filtration?

Brandon

[Angela Short]

Live rock and sand is your filtration. The bacteria will grow on the rock and sand to take care of the ammonia turning it to nitrite then to nitrate which is less toxic ( I hope thats not backwards) So that is where your biofilter is. As far as removing floating stuff from the water column I don't personally like filter "pads" or "socks" to catch uneaten food and deitrus (poop) I think it trapps it away from the natural cycle and just lets it sit and rot fouling the water faster in the form of Phosphates mostly which can lead to alage issues. If the uneaten food and other stuff (poop ;)) is allowed to float free it settles in the rock and sand where your clean up crew can process it naturally. Poop, there is that word again :lol: is something like 70% or some high % of just undigested food so the corals, especially LPS, like it and snails, cucumbers, crabs all will clean it and uneaten food up. Then you have all the other good tank fauna that you introduce via live rock and starter cultures from established sand beds like pods, bristle worms, spagetti worms and such. They keep the food that falls deep in the rocks eaten and sand stirred up looking for even smaller particals of things to eat taking it one step further till basically everything is processed away.

And yes, I am a fan of a DSB just basically for the look of it and the benifit of not having to ever fool with siphoning it like you would aragonite or crushed coral. You just leave a DSB alone and let it do its thing. They act like a nutrient sink so you are not suppose to stir them up you will release lots of junk not good for the tank after about the first 2 inches. A good skimmer will take out your DOC's, Dissolved organic compounds, and some floaty things as well as keep the water looking and smelling good. Ron Shimeck has alot of good articles if you want to read further into DSB's.
I think most die hard full blown SPSers run BB and overskim because higher nutrient tanks with DSB's are not good for SPS to thrive and color up great in. They are great for your average softy/lps with a few hardy SPS for flavor IMO. LPS and softies like a higher nutrient enviroment. I would say the club is 50/50 on who runs them and its ussually a heated debate on whos way is better on the main boards in RC but there is more ways than one to skin a cat and run a succesfull reef! I personally go for the easiest way ;)

Also I notice you are getting a canister filter. Most people just use them to run carbon only. As mentioned above they can trap deitrus and IMO are a pain to disasemble and clean every few weeks ( if you do it like you are suppose to). I know nashvegas runs a canister but he does water changes every 2 weeks like clockwork. Put the carbon in a mesh baggy to keep it in the canister. Carbon is a hot topic also on if its needed. It keeps your water from yellowing and looking clear and smelling good. It also can strip trace elements from the tank but they are easily replaced with regular water changes. It has been rumored to cause HLLE (head line lateral errosion) in fish, mostly tangs are prone, but has not been scientifically proven to do so. It's more of a theory among reefers I think. I recomend it in a smaller system because if something goes wrong its good to have to help keep things in check like if a fish hides and dies you don't find.... A small tank just can't process stuff like a huge volume of water so I personally would use it. I use it in my 270 in a canister type filter part of the time myself when I feel the water needs a little polishing.

OK all this is JMO ;) You will get lots of different ones and try many till you find your own way of doing things.

[NeveSSL]

Thanks Angela!

I should have been more specific... I meant the filtration for the QT tank. :D

Brandon

[Angela Short]

All that for nothing? :lol: ;)

[NeveSSL]

I'm sorry!

I'll be more clear next time. :)

Brandon

[Angela Short]

Well, I hope it didn't come across as you were clueless. I thought it may have read like that after I thought about it :).

[NeveSSL]

Nah... tis all good. ;)

Brandon