my tank has no denitrification at all

[r0bin]

OK, I recently bought a deltec MCE300 skimmer for my 75. I love the skimmer, but I had high hopes about it helping to manage my nitrates better. So far not seeing much of a difference. I thought I was on the right track when I removed my canister filter and added this awesome skimmer. But my nitrates are creeping near 30ppm again and I am feeding VERY lightly. So lightly I am worried my fish aren't getting enough to eat. My tank has absolutely NO ALGAE in it anywhere, thanks to the TANG, which is proabably some of the problem. So times its good to have a little algae.

So I have decided I may have to stop avoiding the inivitable (sp) and install some type of fuge. It has to be hang on back and I have recently spent a lot on equipment so I would like this fuge to be kind of cheap. I need it to be large enough to be effective as this is my last resort. I have always battled nitrates since day one, but they recently got so high my tang got septicemia. He is doing great now that I did tons of water changes, but I can't let this happen to him again. I have got to come up with a permanent solution here. Also now that I have gotten them back down to about 30ppm my xenia is coming back. I like that!

So can you guys help me out here with what type of fuge and what to put in it and what type of light? Also does the light have to be on an opposite schedule as the tank? I am not to happy about that b/c we have a modest appartment and we would be able to see the light at night with it being a HOB fuge. Please hellllpppppp!!! lol

[ralphie16]

Just wanted to comment that skimmers do not get rid of nitrates. Certain types of bacteria do. You can skim water forever and it will not reduce the nitrates. Having a proper environment for these bacteria to thrive in will reduce your nitrate levels.

[drummereef]

What is your water source, tap or ro/di? What types of food are you feeding?

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9852967#post9852967 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
What is your water source, tap or ro/di? What types of food are you feeding?

and how often and how much are you doing your water changes?

[r0bin]

I realize skimmers do not get rid of nitrates. What I meant by manage nitrates is skimmers are supposed to remove organics before they break down to nitrates. I know a skimmer wont remove nitrates from the water column.

[r0bin]

I used distilled water and the nitrates are zero in it per my testing.

I mostly feed flake food but once or twice a week frozen. Also twice a week I put nori on an algae clip for my tang. I promptly remove when he is done. Also once a week I put an algae tablet in for my blue linkia.

I change 10 gallons of water a week.

Honestly I cant figure where the problem is. The nitrate just seem to come from nowhere.

[lakwriter]

It will take a while, even with water changes to stabilize the nitrates. The skimmer cannot remove 100% of waste. How many pounds of live rock and live sand do you have?

When I added my skimmer, it was probably 5 weeks before I saw a significant difference in my water quality (with 15% weekly water changes).

[lakwriter]

You might also want to consider using RO/DI water instead of distilled. Depending on how its distilled, and whether the mechanism of the distiller includes copper elements, you may be adding copper to your system. Although this doesn't have much to do with your current question, it could contribute to your long term success.

[r0bin]

Honestly I wouldnt have a guess on the live rock and sand. Also I used a lot of base rock. I would venture to say 40 pounds live, 35 base. The base has all turned to live now though. I have crushed aragonite probably about 40 lbs. All this stuff is REALLY ball parked though. I added things slowly all along as opposed to all at the beginning. I really appreciate everyones help in asking my questions about my set up I know you are really thinking here. I appreciate that.

[lakwriter]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9853145#post9853145 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin
Honestly I wouldnt have a guess on the live rock and sand. Also I used a lot of base rock. I would venture to say 40 pounds live, 35 base. The base has all turned to live now though. I have crushed aragonite probably about 40 lbs. All this stuff is REALLY ball parked though. I added things slowly all along as opposed to all at the beginning. I really appreciate everyones help in asking my questions about my set up I know you are really thinking here. I appreciate that.

Thats a little on the low end of the recommended LR quantity, but still should be ok. Be patient. Like I said, it may take a while. You might try doing a couple double water changes.

[tkeracer619]

r0bin, I think you should add a fuge with a deep sand bed and cheato algae on a reverse schedule.

How is your flow? For a skimmer to be effective you need lots of flow to keep the waste suspended in the water column as long as possible.

[r0bin]

I have 2 nano 6025's with the flow restrictors cut off. It about 1600 turnover. Nothing seems to settle in my tank upon my observation.

[r0bin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9853217#post9853217 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tkeracer619
r0bin, I think you should add a fuge with a deep sand bed and cheato algae on a reverse schedule.

How is your flow? For a skimmer to be effective you need lots of flow to keep the waste suspended in the water column as long as possible.

Do you think a HOB fuge would work and if so what size?

[Cagraffwriter]

I'm going through the same thing. Been fighting nitrates for sometime now. My problem is I have a pretty big bio-load with my fish. I have a sump with LR and skimmer, but no Fuge, and I'm really thinking about adding one. I do weekly 15% water changes with RO/DI (tds 0) and IO Reef Crystals. Still cant seem to bring them down.

[Cagraffwriter]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9853145#post9853145 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin
Honestly I wouldnt have a guess on the live rock and sand. Also I used a lot of base rock. I would venture to say 40 pounds live, 35 base. The base has all turned to live now though. I have crushed aragonite probably about 40 lbs. All this stuff is REALLY ball parked though. I added things slowly all along as opposed to all at the beginning. I really appreciate everyones help in asking my questions about my set up I know you are really thinking here. I appreciate that.


"I have crushed aragonite probably about 40 lbs."

This part jumped out at me. Is this the same as crushed coral? (Larger size granuals)
Crushed coral or larger size granuals are known for trapping detrius which will contribute to your nitrate problem. Just a thought...not sure exactely what your running for sandbed.

[DamnDamsel]

I really do not like flake foods. In my reef tank any that settle is quickly eatin by crabs etc but I know from past exp's with my freshwater tanks that when ever we fed flake the tanks got dirty in a hurry.

While a fuge could solve your problem I don't think it is your only cure. I would rather look for the source. I feel you have enough rock for a 75 if your guesses are close. I would really look into teh sand size.

[aquarius77]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9853052#post9853052 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin

I mostly feed flake food but once or twice a week frozen. Also twice a week I put nori on an algae clip for my tang. I promptly remove when he is done. Also once a week I put an algae tablet in for my blue linkia.

I change 10 gallons of water a week.

Honestly I cant figure where the problem is. The nitrate just seem to come from nowhere.

With crushed coral substrate and feeding that much im suprised your trates are that low.

Read how much your feeding, in your own words!
Thats way too much food intake.

[smithcreek]

A fuge does not have to be that big to have a huge impact on nitrates. On my AP24 I built a HOB skimmer/fuge that has less than 1.5 gallons for the fuge. My nitrates used to run 15-20 but since I added the fuge they have dropped steadily. The last time I tested they were .25 and still dropping. I feed heavily, frozen mysis, cyclop-eeze, a little nori, blackworms, and fish goo for the LPS without any, and I mean any algae.

I think you'd be fine with a 4 or five gallon fuge. If you go HOB I suggest building a stand, I've heard to many horror stories about HOB fuges falling apart due to the stress of hanging.

[Kiel'thalin]

You are sumpless and limited to HOB items? If so, I would really recommend adding a sump with a refugium. That will probably save you a lot of headaches. I made a 10 gallon refugium for $20 and put cheato algae in it that the LFS gave me. It is by far the best thing I have ever done to my tank. Basically, you need a nutrient export. If you do not, it is just a matter of time before your nitrates build up. I have seen tanks will the biggest most expensive skimmers, lots of flow, and no sand have nitrate issues. Once you find a method to export the nutrients, i.e. crop macro algae that grows in a fuge, you will find reef keeping a whole lot easier.

[snommisbor]

This will sound crazy to you all and of course I don't want my tank to get this high but it makes me not worry about it as much. I went to my LFS to talk to them about reducing my Nitrates. I was at 20ppm. He said that is nothing. Nitrates are what get rid of the Ammonia and Nitrites and those are much more toxic to fish. (We all know this) So when you reduce your nitrates to zero you lose some of that power. I said OK. He then took me to this 10 gallon tank that they have had for 7 years. Has 2 clowns, and some great softies, i.e. mushrooms, polyps, and they are thriving and huge and healthy. Water was clear tank was clean. He then tested the water and the Nitrates were at 160ppm. He said and look do they look like they are stressed. He has the reef in the back with all the expensive coral. Clams, SPS, and that runs at 20ppm. He said naturally you want to keep Nitrates much lower on SPS, but they are not at zero and the corals all look incredible. Of course he said I don't recommend you let your tank go to 160ppm but if it is at 20ppm to 60ppm and you do water changes regularly and have good water flow which keeps the detritus from building up on the sandbed then don't worry about it. So anyway I think we tend to freak out about things that are not bad. We tend to overkill about protecting our tanks and I think sometimes that can be worse then just letting everything work the way they should without interfering.

[yeldarbj]

I'm going to recommend a different route. It worked for me. I've got a sumpless 65g with around 100 lbs of live rock (started with 40 live, 60 dry base). About 5 months ago, my nitrates started to rise to around 20. I was doing weekly 20% water changes with RODI water. I also had been using a cannister and decided to run it empty (just for flow) for a month to see if it would make any difference in nitrates. It didn't change anything (not a nitrate factory as many claim) and my tank didn't look as clean. So I added some Seachem Matrix (small rock-like pieces for denitrification), 2 100ml bags of Seachem Purigen, a couple foam filters, and some carbon. My nitrates slowly started to decrease. Every 2-3 weeks I exchange the foam filters (clean them out and re-use next time), and I rinse out the Matrix in salt water to get the debris out. I periodically recharge the Purigen and change the carbon. Since I've been using this formula, my nitrates have never exceded 4 ppm, and I'm now only doing 1 water change per month at 20%.

I also only feed frozen foods, usually once per day.

[HBtank]

I think you have it nailed already.

Not enough algae, clams or corals using the nitrates.

I think a refugium would really help you out.

[BigDaddy]

If you use AZNO3 it will allow your skimmer to skim off your nitrates. It will help you get to zero and then you can see how low they can stay.

But a fuge w/ macro algea would be best long term.

I've used AZNO3 to get rid of hair algea and it works great to reduce nitrates.

[Navyblue]

A chaeto fuge will work wonder!

[r0bin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9927187#post9927187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquarius77
With crushed coral substrate and feeding that much im suprised your trates are that low.

Read how much your feeding, in your own words!
Thats way too much food intake.

Maybe I missed something here, but I feed my fish one feeding everyday? Do most poeple on here not feed there fish everyday?

[RichConley]

MCE300 is WAY too small for a 75g. A bigger skimmer would help.

[Leopard Man]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9938718#post9938718 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
MCE300 is WAY too small for a 75g. A bigger skimmer would help.

That's true. I got a Deltec AP600, and its going to be gravity fed on my 50G - 36x18x18.

[burton14e7]

There's always the sugar/vodka method.

[r0bin]

I respectfully disagree on the skimmer. I have a fairly light fish load. The skimmer pulls out a lot, seems to be working great. I talked to the guy at Deltec before purchasing this skimmer and he agreed it would do the job.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9939472#post9939472 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by r0bin
I respectfully disagree on the skimmer. I have a fairly light fish load. The skimmer pulls out a lot, seems to be working great. I talked to the guy at Deltec before purchasing this skimmer and he agreed it would do the job.

How much skimmate are you pulling out? On that size tank, you should be pulling out 20 oz + of some pretty nasty stuff every day.


I think the skimmer is way undersized. I think an MCE600 is undersized on that tank, and an AP600 is just about right.

You're having nutrient issues. Either your skimmer isnt keeping up, or your fuge isnt, or you dont have enough flow to get the waste to either one of them.

[r0bin]

OK flow is around 2000 GPH, so I am sure thats not the problem. I lightly feed my fish so I really don't see 20oz a day on skimmate with any skimmer I would have. I don't have a fuge which was the whole reason for starting this thread.

Consuquently for people who have actually read this thread here's an update:
I recently moved one of my tunze's to the front of the tank to keep anything from settling on my rock and added a small powerhead in behind one of my rock islands to keep anything from settling behind. I also started removing some of my crushed coral aragonite by siphoning, to make my bed lower and less. Also, I gave whats left a good vacuum. I would have to say my nitrates seem like they are more controllable in the last week with these new changes. They are at about 20ppm now and that is with feeding heavier b/c I recently got a new fish. I am going to continue to change water and vacuum and see how it goes.

[r0bin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9928446#post9928446 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Navyblue
A chaeto fuge will work wonder!

Navyblue

Is that a pic of your tank to the left? In your icon I guess? If so its Gorgeous!