Formalin clarification

[szwab]

The bottle says to dose 1ml per 18 gallons every other day for 10 days. Others have reccomended dipping with it. Which is the best way to do this? I would think a fw dip would be a lot more stressful than dosing a hospital tank.
thanks in advance.

Mark

[TerryB]

Don't combine formalin with a freshwater dip. If you have a bottle of formalin that says it is 37 to 40% then 1ml/gal in an aerated dip for 45 minutes. What are you using it for? It is really only effective against a limited number of parasites. Depending what you are using it for, you may have to repeat the treatment on the 4th and 7th day.

Terry B

[szwab]

I believe my clown Brooknella from the symptoms and what I have read. Rapid breathing, strigy white poop. and not swimming very well. I had purchased 2. The other one seems to be doing fine.

[andrewsmart]

velvet spreads rapidly i would isolate the fish.

a series of 3 formalin dips every 3rd day is the recommended treatment.

[szwab]

they are not in the display. new additions get qt'd :)

unfortunately the one did not make it :(

[andrewsmart]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9870231#post9870231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by szwab
they are not in the display. new additions get qt'd :)

unfortunately the one did not make it :(

sorry to hear that velvet kills quickly.

shows the importance of quarantine.

[TerryB]

Rapid breathing could be from velvet, or ammonia in the water.The white stringy feces can be caused from an internal bacterial infection, poisoning, or parasites in the intestines. We need more details about your tank and the symptoms to help. Little information = little help.

Terry B

[szwab]

The 2 clowns are in a 10 gallon QT tanks with proper filtration. Water is from the display. Amonia levels are fine. the other clown is showing no signs of distress or presenting symptoms. Both fish were put in QT last Saturday. Both were eating just fine till the one stopped eating, started hovering in the tank. On his last day of life he also had a bit of a bloated abdomen. Was pretty sure it was brook thus i decided to treat with Formalin. Was trying to find out which method of treatment was most effective. I arrived at the diagnosis and trwatment from reading other posts.

[Conky]

Just an observation...

When a fish is not feeling well, it's hard to get them to eat. Therefore, it's hard to get dewormers into them. I realize you can dose Prazi as a bath, but it may not hit the parasites you're worried about. I believe that Panacur only works when dosed with food.

IME, fishes can live with quite a load of internal parasites without any major problems. I think that the formalin bath is a good idea. It might kill some/most "active" parasites that are stressing the fish out. Then maybe they'll eat. And in my personal experience, clownfishes tolerate freshwater dips quite well. I've had them go for over an hour without any major signs of stress. It would help to rid them of possible trematodes (possibly the root of gill issues). Formalin baths would help with protozoans/fungus/bacterium. Hyposalinity works well for Cryp, buy opens you up to a major problem with Uronema.

Unfortunately, with new arrivals, we have very little information to go on. You have to go with what you've got. Not everyone has a microscope at home to examine smears/scrapes with. And honestly, I don't expect them to. Treating with something very broad-spectrum and low lethality is not harmful IMO.

Getting rid of the major stressors will perk up appetite...and then you can deal with internal parasites. It's kind of like a triage. Deal with your most pressing problems first...then work from there.

Sorry, I just think that too often, people focus on secondary problems first...

[TerryB]

Hi Conky,

Praziquantel works quite well as a short bath of 40mg/gal for 3 hours. However considering the bloating, I suspect the stringy feces was caused by an internal bacterial infection rather than intestinal parasites. Of course it is possible to have both simultaneously.

Szwab is not reporting the typical symptoms of brooklynella. Clowns do suffer other maladies. Bloating is certainly not a symptom of brooklynella. The cause of death in brooklynellosis is the inability to maintain osmotic balance leading to dehydration. That means the fish lose weight rather than bloat.

Clownfish may tolerate freshwater dips well, but it is not an effective treatment for brooklynella.

I see nothing that indicates uronema.

Getting a scraping isn’t relevant here since this is an internal infection. Getting a sample would require sacrificing the fish. Formalin dips won’t help with internal infections either.

I suspect that the life threatening pathogen here is bacterial.

Personally, I would not treat the second clown unless it has symptoms. Most bacterial infections are not contagious. If the second clown has bloating or white stringy feces, then my suggestion would be to treat the fish in quarantine in low salinity water with a good antibiotic. Nitrofurazone, furanase, or Maracyn-Two would be my choices.
Terry B

[Conky]

TerryB,

Agreed on all of your points...but I'm starting to become wary of hyposalinity. Uronema may be present at a clinically insignifcant levels mpw...but lowering the salinity may result in a full blown problem. Considering that most people advocate hypo for quarantine, I'm a bit cautious when you're not sure what's going on.

Honestly, with verified cases of Brook, I've never noted any change in body "structure". The sloughing skin is the main diagnositc. By then, it's too late in the majority of cases.

You are assuming that this is an internal infection without seeing the fish for yourself. How can you be so naive? I've seen many cases where the owner did not detect the obvious presence of external parasites. Obviously, with "stringy, witish poop", you can surmise that this may be an issue...but without a fecal you cannot be sure. Don't be so arrogant.

Personally, I'm more worried about gill issues than anything else. That's why I might recommend FW baths/formalin first. Any kind of internal infections would be secondary to these kinds of problems. Formailin kills a LOT of stuff. Not everything...but a lot.

I'm not second guessing you. My experience is that animals affected with internal bacterial infections often exhibit other (more pressing) problems as well. The internal infection is secondary to the main problem. Just my experience...not saying you are wrong. To each his own.

I respect your opinion and in no way am trying to say that you are "wrong". Don't take this as a criticism...merely as a difference in opinion.

[szwab]

so if one were to use formalin what would be the most effective form of treatment?

Treating the QT as a whole (per instructions on the bottle) or a more consentrated dip?

[TerryB]

Conky,

I don't know how your calling anyone naive and arrogant could taken as a personal criticism! It certainly sounds respectful to me.

How can you assume that it is not an internal bacterial infection without seeing the fish for yourself? I am smart enough to know that when making a probable diagnosis sight unseen over the Internet it is impossible to make a definitive diagnosis. The best that can be done is to make a best guess based on the available information. That is what I did.

Yes, formalin kills some pathogens, but only external ones. I suggested using an antibiotic in hyposaline conditions to counteract some external parasites, assist the fish in maintaining osmotic balance and treating for a bacterial infection. I do not suggest treating the fish that does not have any symptoms indicating that it is ill.

I disagree that internal bacterial infections have to have anything to do with external parasites.

I don’t know how you haven’t seen any change in “body structure” with verified cases of Brooklynella hostilis when weight loss in the form of dehydration is common in advanced cases.

Again, Mark did not report seeing the symptoms associated with brooklynella on his fish. I still do not think it is wise to treat the other fish when it is not exhibiting any symptoms of infection.

Terry B

[Conky]

Terry

We will agree to disagree. You are just as informed/capable as myself...if not more

Didn't mean to take a jab at you. Alcohol has a way of making me sound like an a$$.

Honestly, I get very few "verified" cases of anything until several months post-mortem. Veterinary info is basically useless at that point. Scrapes, gill clips, etc are much more valuable.

In Mark's case...I'd consider labored breathing to be a symptom...and I'd generally guess that it is related to something protozoan or trematode. But then again...I'm just an idiot.

I agree that Mark had no definitive signs of Brooklynella. But treating a clownfish for external parasites is not an uncommon course of action. Lowering salinity would just expose it to attack by other protozoans that thrive in hyposaline environments. Agreed that it would help with osmoregulation, but is it worth it when you don't really know what is going on?

Anyways, as I said...didn't mean to take a shot at you. You obviously know what you're talking about.

The best way I can sum it up is...

I used to be a vet tech. When a dog came in with signs of Parvo and intestinal parasites...we definitely focused on Parvo first. The parasites were a secondary concern. They posed no immediate threat. In a way this could back up what you are saying...though Parvo is a VIRUS, not an INFECTION. Anyways, dealing with the most harmful issues is of utmost importance. Dealing with the more minor ones comes after.

And as far as emaciation...I honestly have not noted it in Brooklynella-infested clownfish. Maybe I'm just not observant enough.

[szwab]

disregarding current situation since the fish is dead.
if one needed to use formalin what would be the most effective form of treatment?

Treating the QT as a whole (per instructions on the bottle) or a more concentrated dip?

[TerryB]

Mark,

Follow this link for an answer to your question.

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/formaldehyde_friend_or_foe.html

Terry B

[Conky]

Terry

Please don't take my previous statements as condescending...they were not meant that way. In re
reading my posts, they certainly take on that "air". Especially the one using words like "naive" and "arrogant" . Need to stop posting after drinking...My apologies.

On a lighter note, do you notice increased respiration with internal bacterial infections? An honest question...not a loaded one. I always assume parasites in that situation.

Mark

My personal opinion is that short term baths are far more effective and safer. As Terry said, 1mL or less per gallon (heavily aerated) can be effective. Up to an hour in duration. Sometimes we use Form/Mal. Green mixtures.

[szwab]

very helpful.

thank you

[TerryB]

Conky,

Uronema infection is pretty uncommon and there is not a consensus among aquatic medicine specialists that it will thrive in salinities below 20ppt anyway. I suppose there could be more than one strain with different tolerances. I see the odds of the fish being infected with uronema to be low, especially since no symptoms for it were reported other than respiratory distress which can be caused by many other things. That is one reason that I think hypopsalinity may have been beneficial. Uronema is not an obligate parasite and it can be in a aquarium without causing infection as it does feed on things other than the fish.

I could not agree more about prioritizing the most threatening problem. I just disagree as to what that problem is most likely to be in this instance.

Terry B

[TerryB]

Conky,

Apology accepted. Yes, I have noticed respiratory distress as a symptom of several types of illness in fish, including internal bacterial infection and certainly with bacterial infection of the gills. Internal bacterial infections are generally systemic so that may be the reason for the respiratory distress.

Terry B