Cirolanid Isopods!?

[markush]

I'm about to freak out here....I see what I believe are Cirolanid Isopods. What I see appear to have slightly smaller black eyes then the one pictured on Richards site. But the articles I can find also have pics of ones with not so huge eyes like mine.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/bp/index.php
In Figure 2 at the top middle of the pic there are two that are vertical...mine look like the one on the right with the smaller eyes and all of mine have been about 2 mm in length.

Here's another alarming article I have found.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/clarke_shimek.html

I have netted one and have seen and been unable to net 3 more...I believe as with the baddy crabs if you see a couple there's a very good chance there are many more that you don’t see.

Am I rightfully concerned or am I over reacting?

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9887187#post9887187 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by markush
I'm about to freak out here....I see what I believe are Cirolanid Isopods. What I see appear to have slightly smaller black eyes then the one pictured on Richards site. But the articles I can find also have pics of ones with not so huge eyes like mine.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/bp/index.php
In Figure 2 at the top middle of the pic there are two that are vertical...mine look like the one on the right with the smaller eyes and all of mine have been about 2 mm in length.

Here's another alarming article I have found.
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/clarke_shimek.html

I have netted one and have seen and been unable to net 3 more...I believe as with the baddy crabs if you see a couple there's a very good chance there are many more that you don’t see.

Am I rightfully concerned or am I over reacting?

Photo ??

might be them or might be any of several "pods".

w/o a good photo it's all a guess.

[markush]

This ones the biggest so far about about 3-4mm


http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/IMG_4316web.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/IMG_4322web.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/IMG_4309web.jpg

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/IMG_4298web.jpg

[Untamed12]

I most certainly received many of those in my shipments of rock/sand as well. I saw them many times mostly immediately after the rock was put in the tank. I haven't seen one in over a month now.

But I share your concern.

In the end, I ignored it and have gone ahead and added fish. It is certainly a ciranolid...but you can't be positive that it is the type that are a real problem.

If you want to be sure...just wait 6-8 weeks before adding fish. If they are dependent of fish to survive, you'll starve them out. At least, I think it is 6-8 weeks...it might be longer.

[markush]

I was pretty positive they were Cirolanids. Ron Shimek says the starvation period is 3 to 4 months in this article.

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/clarke_shimek.html

The main reason I set this tank up was because my old tank had sprung a second small leak. It was either get rid of everything and be done with the aquarium hobby or start a new tank...the wife said new tank so here we are. I can't wait 3-4 months to be sure my fish won't get eaten.

Unless someone can say for sure that these aren't the baddest of the bad bugs or I can eradicate them, it appears all the time and expense of this new tank is wasted and I end up getting rid of everything anyway.

[figuerres]

Bummer! :(

[Untamed12]

Faced with the same decision (and I'm sure the same ciranolids), I went ahead and put fish in. It has been about 4 weeks and I've not seen any sign that the fish are being attacked.

Maybe you just have to roll the dice.

[scowiii]

Im waiting 3-4 months before I add fish in anyways. It stinks but I am having so much fun finding new life everyday just in the rocks.

[ChrisB]

Is there a fish that will hunt them down and eat them? A wrasse of some sort maybe?

[markush]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9904402#post9904402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChrisB
Is there a fish that will hunt them down and eat them? A wrasse of some sort maybe?

Not that i have been able to find in my search for info on these. I've read that if the fish do not chew them up they have been known to eat their way out of the fish....yummy. There is a stinky water method of capturing these that i havn't tried since my tank is still cycling.

[wooglin]

I have an easy solution. MANTIS. I keep several in my 75 and they take care of anything small like that.

[Untamed12]

I do not believe that mantis shrimp are going to hunt down ciranolids. I'm a big mantis fan (I think I have 6 in my display tank)...but I don't think there is anyway that they are going to waste their time on anything that small. They are also exceptionally fast swimmers.

[sytanek]

I found several in my tank of TBS stuff, but only one I ever found on a fish. There is no real way to starve them, they simply become scavengers and will eat anything.

[markush]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9927664#post9927664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sytanek
I found several in my tank of TBS stuff, but only one I ever found on a fish. There is no real way to starve them, they simply become scavengers and will eat anything.

So these are the fish eaters! I was thinking the starvation thing would be hard to do also. There is always going to be some sort of life in the tank with all the hitchhiker crabs...bad or good leaving molts for these guys to feed on.

I've now seen many of these things...mostly swimming erratically in my moonlights. I've been able to net about a dozen like this. There are two methods I am going to try to get rid of these things, the stinky water and the sacrificial fish. I doubt they are going anywhere but I have to try.

[scowiii]

So you guys made me all paranoid and I stood up all night looking in the tank and sure enough found about 3-4 of these little buggers. Was able to capture two of them with the good old turkey baster but the third one eluded me. :mad:

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9927860#post9927860 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by markush
So these are the fish eaters! I was thinking the starvation thing would be hard to do also. There is always going to be some sort of life in the tank with all the hitchhiker crabs...bad or good leaving molts for these guys to feed on.

I've now seen many of these things...mostly swimming erratically in my moonlights. I've been able to net about a dozen like this. There are two methods I am going to try to get rid of these things, the stinky water and the sacrificial fish. I doubt they are going anywhere but I have to try.

just remember that there are also isopods that are food for fish and look very much like the bad guys.

for example I have what I can only call "spring tail" pods that are harmless and eaten by many fish that look like the others but they are curved and do not have the big eyes.

later today I have to change the filter sock so perhaps I'll use my macro lens and get a photo of them just to compare with.

[sytanek]

Two ways to tell if its a cirolanid, it has the big black eyes, and it does not turn into a rolly poly when you touch it.

Not to hard to test.

[markush]

I am in no way trying to start a panic. I started this thread looking for an identification and information. If you think you might have these nasties please research and decide for yourself what you have. After spending the last week reading everything i can find I'm confident mine are Cirolanids

Here is an image showing both a Cirolanid and a Sphaeromatid (what i'm guessing figuerres is calling a "spring tail").
"
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/image004.jpg
Comparison of Sphaeromatids (top) Cirolanids (bottom), views from the side and top. The easiest distinguishing characters are the large obvious eyes on the Cirolanids, and the large obvious tail appendages on the male Sphaeromatids."

The bugs with the really big eyes are Aegids and apparently even nastier then Cirolanids.
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j157/markush2/image001.jpg

[Untamed12]

Here's the kind of confirmation that you don't want to see. There's now no doubt whatsoever that the ciranolids that are present in TBS rock are parasitic and nasty.

Here's the lovely surprise I got when I got home this evening. Of course, catching the fish is virtually impossible. I waited all night to see if I could notice the ciranolid when it drops off...but I've now given that up as well.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/untamed_photos/100_0287.jpg

Time to build one of those traps and see if it works. Man...I hope this thing doesn't reproduce...

[scowiii]

thats a total bummer. :(

I haven't been sleeping too well and look at the tank at night I see them swimming around at night and am able to usually catch 2-3 of the smaller ones. I have seen a couple big ones but they have eluded me up to this point. I guess the best thing is to starve the tank.

[markush]

I've been using a brine net to net about a dozen every night. When I see them start to swim around I'll just wave the net around quickly for about a minute or so at a time. If I get the net close to the rocks when I do this it seems to stir up more...my record for bugs in the net at once is now 8. I removed 20 last night, that's about 75 or so total so far.....there are hundreds of these in my 90 gallon I am sure. The bigger ones are smarter, they don't swim in open water long but stay very near the glass and I haven’t been able to get them.

[Untamed12]

I put a quick trap together using ciranolid hunter's instructions. I made a small version from a 300ml water bottle.

To make a long story short...It took about 1/2 hour before I saw a large one get trapped...waited for a while to see if I could get another one....gave up...pulled up the trap in order to get the one out....

...and discovered that I had trapped about 25. Most were exceptionally small (less than 1mm). So small that I was unable to see them being trapped.

So the trap is in the tank overnight now and we'll see what we get in the morning.

Tomorrow, I use 3 or more traps.

[DaveJ]

You are not the first and you are not going to be the last person to get these in their tanks due to TBS. Back a few years when they first started popping up, they were the source. Now about 3 or 4 years later they are still a source of them. This is why I NEVER recommend anyone purchase their LR.

The fact that the have no acknowledged the problem (infestation) of their rock is amazing, but I suppose the little blurb on the website about 'occasional pests' etc covers their butts.

Good luck to you... I would recommend you make your tank fallow for 6 months. One guy originally had some success with a type of hog fish if I remember correctly (but don't quote me on that).

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9970475#post9970475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaveJ
You are not the first and you are not going to be the last person to get these in their tanks due to TBS. Back a few years when they first started popping up, they were the source. Now about 3 or 4 years later they are still a source of them. This is why I NEVER recommend anyone purchase their LR.

The fact that the have no acknowledged the problem (infestation) of their rock is amazing, but I suppose the little blurb on the website about 'occasional pests' etc covers their butts.

Good luck to you... I would recommend you make your tank fallow for 6 months. One guy originally had some success with a type of hog fish if I remember correctly (but don't quote me on that).

and how should they "control" this ??
it's stuff that's in the ocean.

they don't put the rock in a tank and load it up with them.

granted it sucks.

but it's a naturaly occuring marine organisim.

[DaveJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9971006#post9971006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by figuerres
and how should they "control" this ??
it's stuff that's in the ocean.

they don't put the rock in a tank and load it up with them.

granted it sucks.

but it's a naturaly occuring marine organisim.


Sure is...... and there is nothing they an do about it except list it as one of the COMMON hitchhikers they see. They should also NOT tell people its not a problem like they did to this guy either.

See their problem is this... they have a history of supplying LR that is contaminated with these things. VERY few other sources have popped up for this bug (at least on RC). So if they warn folks, or refund they will end up out of business so they play it off and hope it goes away or that more people will not hear of it and buy their products than will hear of it and avoid them.

Its unrealistic to take this position, but I will.... If any supplier routinely has these in their systems, holding tanks or supply rock, they should move to a different area or stop selling. It is unethical to KNOWINGLY supply something that will destroy someones tank completely. I compare this to RIO and their history of Pumps burning up. They should have pulled all of them off the shelves and instituted quality assurance procedures to avoid it. TB should do the same, or at least do something that will give the unknowing hobbyist some measure of protection.

What can they do??? They can hold their Rock in QT for as many months as it takes until these things die off for lack of fish to suck the life out of. Once they get a rolling stock in place, they will have no supply problems. If they were ethical and responsible business folks, they would attempt to do something like that.

If this is as rare an occurance as they lead people to believe, then they should at least refund the cost of the rock and offer people some help with any damage that occurs because of these things. I need not remind you that they are also hazardous to humans as many people who have had them have reported being bitten.

[markush]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9971006#post9971006 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by figuerres
and how should they "control" this ??
it's stuff that's in the ocean.

they don't put the rock in a tank and load it up with them.

granted it sucks.

but it's a naturaly occuring marine organisim.

Acknowledgment would be nice. I followed the TBS vendor forum for 2 months before ordering and never knew these things existed. Once I had the first part in my tank I noticed these and asked questions both of you guys and of Richard. Richard assured me after i sent him my photos that "it is not the bad one".

I think this dialog here is good...at least it brings awareness to this problem. I wish I had seen a post like this a month ago.

[HowardW]

<<< See their problem is this... they have a history of supplying LR that is contaminated with these things. VERY few other sources have popped up for this bug (at least on RC). So if they warn folks, or refund they will end up out of business so they play it off and hope it goes away or that more people will not hear of it and buy their products than will hear of it and avoid them. >>>

<<< This is why I NEVER recommend anyone purchase their LR.
>>>

Your knowledge and credibility index just dropped to ZERO.

1) And why is it that what they call "live rock" from Figi, SI, Tonga, etc, etc. not have issues with hitchhikers good or bad?....it's because it's not really live rock at all, it's dried out mostly dead rock with some remaining coralline and dried out dead plant mush that remains after several long plane trips wrapped in wet newspaper and sitting in various airport warehouses anf then finally shipped to a distributor and finally a retailer and finally to the end user. And why does this type of rock have to go through weeks of "curing" and smell like a sewer?....because it's 98% DEAD rock.

2) TBS or other Florida aquacultured rock isn't 'contaminated' with anything, it's loaded with life just as it comes out of the ocean. NEWSFLASH: Yes, there are crabs and mantis shrimps and isopods in the oceans, and various creatures good and bad seem to be found in abundance at some times of the year and then not at all at other times (see the octopus breeding season thread). When you buy overseas rock however it's not an issue because nearly nothing but bacteria can survive in a sealed styro box for days or weeks on end wrapped in wet newspapers sitting in airport warehouses.

3) Thousands of people have been buying Florida aquacultured rock for many years and anyone who's done even an ounce of research knows you can expect to receive anything and everything from corals to small fish to an octopus and even a bad isopod. In fact, most direct dealers in this type of rock literally can not get enough of it at times and after all these years, so I seriously doubt TBS or anyone else is going out of business over isopods or anything else people may find on the rock.

4) I've been keeping hundreds of pounds Florida rock on and off for nearly 20 yrs. and have seen exactly 4 or 5 bad isopods which I promptly netted out, and also didn't feel the need to publicly bash a well liked, highly ethical, and respected dealer with a bunch of bloody nonsense, outright BS, and borderline actionable public statements.

[figuerres]

I have a 90 and before that a 55 and never seen the bad guys.
and I had the 55 for over 5 years.
I have bought TBS rock at least 3 times during the 6-7 years I have been in the tampa area.

I have read this message board for the same length of time and not seen any other threads with this problem -- not aying that it had not happened etc... just that no threads I recall have made a big deal about them on TBS rock.

also if you google for the term "ciroland isopods pacicifc live rock" you will get a number of links to info about them and how many kinds are in the sea.

from a quick read they occur in every part of the worlds oceans and fl is no hotbed of infestation.

so like many other things the will be around and sometimes you get a bunch of them in the rock.

along with 999 other kinds of pods and 999,999 kinds of bacteria and other stuff.

I will say that if he were around to answer right now rich would reply and would tell anyone who cares he's not hiding any facts or saying they don't happen etc....

more than once he has shipped rock to customers when they complained asked for him to replace the rock or he felt it was needed to fix a problem due to a shipping problem.

from what I have personaly seen, read etc... he is an honest businessman who cares about what he does and that his customers get taken care of.



Ok just wnated to say that and I hope we all learn from the current issues. and I hope the bad guys go elsewhere for a good long while so we can get the "good stuff" from TBS and not the bad pods.

[Untamed12]

I also thought the use of the word "contaminated" was poorly chosen. I think "contaminated" could only be used if something was present that wasn't naturally supposed to be there, so using it in this context is just misinformed.

I purchased TBS rock because of the naturally occurring life that is contained in/on it, AND because it is aquacultured and as close to environmentally sensitive as you can get. I'm prepared to deal with problems, in order to get the reward.

The bottom line is...if you take a piece of the ocean and put it in your aquarium you really, REALLY dpn't know what you are going to get. You may not like everything.

I engage in this discussion frequently with my fellow aquarists...if all you want is bacterial surface area and decorative shapes, just build stuff out of concrete or artificial medium and leave the oceans alone.

[sytanek]

I guess lucky for me there were only a few of these buggers, it was really the 10th mantis shrimp and 30 something gorilla crabs that drove me to insanity. They almost completely destroyed the entire cleanup crew that came with my rock. The rock is now in a holding tank in my garage with some powerheads spending at least 6 months out there before I would even consider using it again. I know my case may be rare, and not trying to bash Richard, as he is a very nice guy to deal with, just want to share my experience so people who decide to go the same route can make a decision based on good and bad experiences.

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9973528#post9973528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sytanek
I guess lucky for me there were only a few of these buggers, it was really the 10th mantis shrimp and 30 something gorilla crabs that drove me to insanity. They almost completely destroyed the entire cleanup crew that came with my rock. The rock is now in a holding tank in my garage with some powerheads spending at least 6 months out there before I would even consider using it again. I know my case may be rare, and not trying to bash Richard, as he is a very nice guy to deal with, just want to share my experience so people who decide to go the same route can make a decision based on good and bad experiences.

in my experiences the crabs are the #1 pest, EVERY load of TBS rock I have got had plenty of them and they IMHO do more reef damage than the mantis I had in my first load.

I have seen crabs take out cuc's, fish and corals and toppel rocks all the time.

but as noted: I know this all comes out of the gulf and you just have to deal with it.

I'm glad to have not had the iso-suckers so far and have my fingers crossed that I never have them (I hope)

and the giant ones I have seen on TV and in photos give me the creeps!

take a look at this pdf online:
http://niwavessels.co.nz/ncabb/abb/2004-07/abb-2004-07.pdf

they have a photo of one thats huge and I hope to never meet alive and up close!!!

[DaveJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9973264#post9973264 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Untamed12
I also thought the use of the word "contaminated" was poorly chosen. I think "contaminated" could only be used if something was present that wasn't naturally supposed to be there, so using it in this context is just misinformed.


Okay a correction to the verbage.... Infested..... does that work better for ya??


Y'all seem to be missing the point. Hitchhikers are nothing new to LR of any source. We accept a certain amount of risk when we purchase it, mantis, crabs that kind of thing. Occasionally these show up in other places and from other suppliers, but a large number of the people I have seen over the years with this isopod problem, guess where the source was?? TBS... it may be florida rock.. it may be their particular area is just a hot bed for them. I don't know. But they should be at least warning people and taking some basic steps to prevent them from getting into someones tank when they know they have an unusually high incidence rate with them.

They don't do that however.. and while they may be great people to deal with on other issues, this gent is not the first one to get absolutely nowhere with isopod problems.

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9973839#post9973839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaveJ
Okay a correction to the verbage.... Infested..... does that work better for ya??


Y'all seem to be missing the point. Hitchhikers are nothing new to LR of any source. We accept a certain amount of risk when we purchase it, mantis, crabs that kind of thing. Occasionally these show up in other places and from other suppliers, but a large number of the people I have seen over the years with this isopod problem, guess where the source was?? TBS... it may be florida rock.. it may be their particular area is just a hot bed for them. I don't know. But they should be at least warning people and taking some basic steps to prevent them from getting into someones tank when they know they have an unusually high incidence rate with them.

They don't do that however.. and while they may be great people to deal with on other issues, this gent is not the first one to get absolutely nowhere with isopod problems.

I think you made your point, none of us has said "it does not happen" as for TBS warning folks ... give it a few weeks as rich is not around right now to update his web site, when he gets back I bet he adds the right info to his web site.

so give him a chance to update it .... if he does not *AFTER* he has come home from his trip *THEN* we can all have a nice chat about what the web site says.

Fair enough ??

[DaveJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9904402#post9904402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ChrisB
Is there a fish that will hunt them down and eat them? A wrasse of some sort maybe?

One of the original guys who reported these in this tank had some success with a Hog Fish.

Most people end up going fallow.

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9973870#post9973870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DaveJ
One of the original guys who reported these in this tank had some success with a Hog Fish.

Most people end up going fallow.

one thing I have to wonder is what the natural balance is for them...

for example most things in the ocean are eaten by some other thing.

or has a parasite that attacks it or....

seems that there are a few things that just linger like the red flatworms that almost nothing will eat.

in the open sea and reef the pods (from what I understand) are mostly in the sand or on the rocks till they find an unlucky fish to latch onto.

they seem to be able to live a long time w/o a fish so what kills them?

if we could find a natural process / parasite / or preadator that comes from the gulf / carib area that would be great, as long as it did not cause worse problems.

you mention hog fish, interesting as they come from the right general area... you do mean spanish hog fish right??

not that I expect to find a fish that eats them per se but I wonder if some types of gulf / carib fish are more or less able to eat them or avoid them etc....

just some thoughts on what might be done....

[HowardW]

<<< purchased TBS rock because of the naturally occurring life that is contained in/on it, AND because it is aquacultured and as close to environmentally sensitive as you can get. I'm prepared to deal with problems, in order to get the reward.

The bottom line is...if you take a piece of the ocean and put it in your aquarium you really, REALLY dpn't know what you are going to get. You may not like everything. >>>


Excellent post and exactly to the point. The simple fact is there are tried and true methods and many threads here discussing how to successfully remove the small handful of various unwanted critters you may or may not receive on your particular shipment of TBS rock, or any other Florida aquacultured rock. The huge majority have found it well worth the effort to remove these critters to enjoy this highly diverse and interesting rock for years to come. Then there are also those who will rant, complain, point fingers, become disgusted, give up, swear off......whatever.

Regardless of false accusations to the contrary, these isopods are not 'common' and like many other critters are probably only found in abundance during certain times of the year IMO. If they were indeed common you would see thread after thread on the TBS forum discussing them, which you don't. So again, if you do have these isopods in a recent shipment, do your best to catch or trap as many as you can and just wait a few months to introduce any fish (never a bad idea to let the tank mature before adding fish anyway) and the problem will eventually pass.

[DaveJ]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9973914#post9973914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by figuerres
one thing I have to wonder is what the natural balance is for them...

for example most things in the ocean are eaten by some other thing.

or has a parasite that attacks it or....

seems that there are a few things that just linger like the red flatworms that almost nothing will eat.

in the open sea and reef the pods (from what I understand) are mostly in the sand or on the rocks till they find an unlucky fish to latch onto.

they seem to be able to live a long time w/o a fish so what kills them?

if we could find a natural process / parasite / or preadator that comes from the gulf / carib area that would be great, as long as it did not cause worse problems.

you mention hog fish, interesting as they come from the right general area... you do mean spanish hog fish right??

not that I expect to find a fish that eats them per se but I wonder if some types of gulf / carib fish are more or less able to eat them or avoid them etc....

just some thoughts on what might be done....

Imagine there a number of things that will feed on them, but I have no idea if they have a specific predator or not. The most likely ones would be inverts of some sort or "picky" fish like wrasses etc.

On the hog fish.. I'm not sure the exact variety that he ended up using as it was a few years ago. It was either a spanish or a diana's.....

[shred5]

Actually figuerres there have been several threads on rc about tbs having them in their rock. The question is why do some get so many and others none, Maybe like some said it is seasonal thing. If this can be figured out maybe they should not collect during this time or people that are afraid of them can stay away during this time. To me there is nothing wrong with trying to figure this out with threads like this. But any rock from anywhere could have these in or any other pest. I had 40 pounds of fiji rock that had 3 mantis shrimp..

Also It is like you said, the thing with TBS is there rock is shipped less distance and more life survives so it make sense it would also have more pests. People seem to panic over this stuff to, Oh my god I have a mantis shrimp how do I get them out? I had a mantis in my tank for 5 years and never could catch him. My glass never shattered and I never lost a fish.

This also one reason I tell people to take it slowly. Do not start putting corals and stuff in just in case you do have to move stuff or take a rock out for a bit. do not add a bunch of fish at once. People are in such a rush. With TBs rock you should give it more time because it is much fresher rock with lots of sponges that do not make it.

I set up a hole 75 gallon with aquacultured rock from the area, I do not remember if it was tbs or another vendor but it was the most beautiful and most full of life rock I had ever seen. I was also the heaviest rock.


Dave

[liverock]

Actually this info has been on my site for years...look here

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/thepackage/organisms.html

You will always get hitch hikers with aquacultured rock as it is grown in the ocean, and when you take the reef from the ocean and put it in your home, you get what lives in the reef, good and bad.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9974364#post9974364 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liverock
Actually this info has been on my site for years...look here

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/thepackage/organisms.html

You will always get hitch hikers with aquacultured rock as it is grown in the ocean, and when you take the reef from the ocean and put it in your home, you get what lives in the reef, good and bad.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

Hey there.... thought you were on your trip man!!

by the way I just dumped my sump sock and have a few close ups of my pods, if you want to use some of the photos go for it.

here are my TBS based pods, but some may have also came from some fuge pods I added to my fuge.

by the way I still -- at I guess 5 going on six months have at least one or two of the lacelets that came in my last batch of sand.

my pods:

http://www.figuerres.com/Details.aspx?AlbumID=11&Page=0

I did see an odd thing that for a few minutes I though it was the bad guy... then got a photo, some kind of capsule ??
egg ??
:rolleyes:

[liverock]

Denny!

you have some excellent propagation going on there!

You should be in the pod business....Richard TBS


trip? is June...

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9974905#post9974905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by liverock
Denny!

you have some excellent propagation going on there!

You should be in the pod business....Richard TBS


trip? is June...

every week my sock is full of them and I dump them in a bucket and then into a small fish-holder that I can dump into my hob aquq-fuge.

I used bills-reef and inland aquautics to help stock the fuge and tank with more micro stuff. the hob fuge has cheato and some other alge small bristle worms, mini stars etc....

[figuerres]

looks like most of my pods are "Munnids"

[markush]

I’m done! I tried to talk to Richard personally off the forums. He downplayed it saying they are not that bad and “experts” say they will disappear, (That’s contrary to everything I have personally seen published on the web if there are fish present…and he knew I had fish that needed a new home)...and telling me I may want to clarify my quote of him telling me “this is not the bad one”…when my quote was accurate and in the proper context. I will say he is a very personable and consummate salesman…rule number one in sales…never ever let the customer believe something is as bad as it truly is.

Like I said, I’m done here in this thread and TBS forum. If you care to you can read the following correspondence between me and Richard and say what you will or just let this thread die. Richards words are in red



Hi Richard, I see you replied to the thread i started about the Cirolanids in the TBS forum. Please don't take this as an attack but Can i ask you why you told me that this is not the bad bug?

I suppose my case is different from most in that i have another tank worth of inhabitants that i needed to go into this new one. I knew I wouldn't be able to let the tank mature as it should and i was prepared to deal with that and the bad crabs and mantis.

But what i had no idea about was bugs like this...forgive me for not being as informed as i could be. But that's why i posted in the forum and asked you personally in emails.

Once the first part was in place i had "The Bugs" so that was just another thing i have to deal with. I have not bashed you or TBS rock because of these but i am bothered because in your email replies you told me this was not the bad bug. Mark


His reply

Mark

When you asked about that bug, I told you it may not be the bad one....as there are several types, so you may want to clarify that statement on RC...

Not to worry about what you post, is what RC is for...if these guys were an issue there would be many threads on them...

as I told you according to the experts on these guys, they will run their course, and disappear.....or catch them, your not going to let a little bug beat ya, are you?

I have never seen one here in the tanks in 30 years....so they must be a very occasional occurrence...or there would be a whole lot more info out there about them...on reef central....yes? try the trap, or net them at night, really no big deal, just another critter you do not want in your tank that has to be removed....think of the alternative, a tank full of purple rock from Fiji, or one with thousands of live critters, good and bad!
Richard TBS



Then a follow up from him asking me to remember his reply to a previous email I sent him.

remember?

if they do not look like the picture..not to worry....no big deal....even if
they are the bad guys, they will not live..

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark" <markush2@yahoo.com>
To: "Richard Londeree" <liverock@tbsaltwater.com>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:04 PM
Subject: Regarding part two


> Hi Richard, my cycle looks about complete and just about ready for part
> 2, BUT i have seen what i believe to be Cirolanid Isopods which came
> with part 1. I did net one and dispose of it hoping it was the only one
> but the next morning i noticed 3 more. What i have are different from
> the one you have pictured only in that the black eyes are smaller on
> mine. But everything i have been able to find in reference to Cirolanid
> Isopods on the net have lumped the large and small eyed version
> together. If this is indeed what i have i am not going to add anything
> else to the tank.
>
> I am doing my best to capture another to get a photo of it but these
> things scatter at the first sign of light. I have knowledge of the
> stinky water method of capturing these but i haven't wanted to do this
> while my tank is cycling. Any input from you at this point would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks, Mark


My follow up asking him to remember him telling me “it is not the bad one” in reply to a previous email..


Do you remember this one? This is the one i sent pics with.

see below
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark" <markush2@yahoo.com>
To: "Richard Londeree" <liverock@tbsaltwater.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Regarding part two
Thanks for the fast reply...i actually caught and photoed another one tonight and am attaching the pics. When you say they will not live could you explain why you say that?

they starve...

My concern is that...i set up this new tank because my old one has sprung a small leak...so i have fish that need to go into this tank as soon as possible...if these are the baddest of the bad bugs I cannot give them my fish to eat. Thanks again, Mark

plus it is not the bad one!



His final email


yea...

just catch them and all is well...did ya see the trap untamed made?...seems to work well....have they done any thing yet?

I think you are a bit too worried, as these guys are easily caught...would you want any other rock? this is REAL live rock.....

How about a picture of the tank....as I think people would like to see!

Richard TBS

[CT1258]

I for one see no attempt to decieve or evade on Richard's part, as a matter of fact he seems quite straightforward. If you want sterile rock it is by all means availible out there. If you want abundant life on the rock I guess we know where to find that also, at TBS................CT

[Untamed12]

I agree, seems like a very balanced discussion to me. I also don't think it is fair to expect that Richard is an expert on every possible living thing that his rock might contain.

When I first discovered the ciranolid attached to my tang, I was pretty upset. Subsequent to that, I've seen ciranolids attached to that same tang twice more, but both times they were considerably smaller than the first one.

The fish continues to show no signs of stress at all. The tang is still the only fish that I've actually seen ciranolids on.

The trap I'm using every night is proving to be reasonably effective, and I've now learned that I can just leave the traps in there overnight and collect my victims in the morning.

So far, I've removed about 30...mostly very small.

I'm now at the point where I'm not very concerned about this anymore. The fish are fine....I have a method that can certainly control the population, if they can actually reproduce (which is unclear)...and there is a good chance that I can eliminate them completely even while there are fish in the tank.

Mark, if you are still listening...just start trapping. My fish seem to be doing just fine. Personal experience here is that these critters aren't the death penalty that they get made out to be.

[sytanek]

I didn't find the isopods to be as much of a hassle as the gorilla crabs and mantis.... I was mostly just dissapointed in my tbs stuff because in a month the dumb things took out almost my entire cleanup crew..including the anemones Richard threw in. I'm not trying to bash the rock, because the rock itself looked really good with lots of sponges and other life, was just extremely frustrated that I lost my entire cleanup crew due to my high number of hitchhikers.

just a note, I was catching at least a gorilla crab or mantis every day, so it definately wasn't from lack of trying.

[Untamed12]

To each their own, I suppose. I've kept all the mantis (5), added my old mantis and have made no attempt to remove crabs.

I've seen the mantis attack and kill a gorilla crab. I've also seen a mantis crawl directly through a group of 10 peppermint shrimp without the least interest in them. I've seen a 1.5" fish perch on top of a 1.5" mantis.

I kept a mantis in a 2 gallon tank for 3 years along with a couple of snails and the mantis never once showed any interest in snail killing. (hermit crabs...entirely different story!)

I've also seen a gorilla crab grab a very large hermit crab and drag it away to a presumed death.

My philosophy is that clean up crews are easily replaced.

Your comment on the anemones is interesting. I've not seen a crab or mantis show any interest in an anemone. Did you witness this, or are you speculating?

[sytanek]

We witnessed this. I think it was from lack of food, since there weren't any crabs left to eat. I know its not very common, but talking to people in our local club, some others chimed in they have seen the same thing, albeit rare. It seemed to happen if the anemone decided to move close to t he whole in the rock where the mantis or gorilla crabs were living.

I also saw the mantis kill a couple of the gorilla crabs. So I guess you could say they could be a natural predator of them. I agree with the mantis shrimp and the fish thing, I'm guessing this isn't much of an issue if the mantis is a smasher instead of a spearer?

I didn't have to much of a problem catching the mantis shrimp, it wasn't easy but wasn't death. I had a lot harder time catching the gorilla crabs, they seemed to be extremely nocturnal in my tank, and the occasional wake up at 3 am and look at the tank I would find one or two hanging outside their hole.

The rock itself was very nice. I loved how much growth it had on it. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy the rock, just want to let people know my experience so they can better educate themselves before making the decision.

I was expecting the bad hitch hikers, just not near as many as I ended up with, and like I previously mentioned, maybe my batch was just an unlucky one.

[don954]

I know Interceptor kills crabs and pods, so if you are very concerned with bad bugs, you might want to just beg some interceptor from your vet and wipe out the pod population on these rocks and then re-seed with known good pods...

BTW, my atlantic pork fish loved the small crabs, its his tasty treat. I go down to the inlet and grab a few dozzen from under rocks every month...

[Untamed12]

I would disagree most strongly with advice to use interceptor as a way of eliminating "bad bugs".

According to Brian Plankis (who spent considerable time testing this...), interceptor was relatively ineffective against Ciranolids anyway. It only became effective at concentrations that would decimate a lot of other things.

He wrote:

So, what can we determine from these Interceptor tests? First, it appears that at concentrations up to twenty times the concentration recommended for eliminating red bugs (0.006g/gal - 0.05g/gal), 100% of the Cirolanid isopods will survive for at least six hours. The treatment could be modified to last for 24 hours, but this duration caused 100% mortality in amphipods. This is an indication that a significant portion of the helpful crustacean population would die while the Cirolanids would live in a tank treated with Interceptor at up to twenty times the standard red bug treatment level.

Second, at much higher concentrations Interceptor appears effective at killing Cirolanids and amphipods relatively quickly. In my limited tests, Cirolanids experienced 100% mortality in six hours or less when the concentration was 0.081g/gal or higher. While it could be possible to kill Cirolanids in a reef tank at these high concentrations, it would also stand to reason that you would destroy the good crustacean population in your reef tank. Given that my reef tank easily has 2000+ amphipods and countless smaller crustaceans, I can only imagine the cycle caused by the death of a large percentage of them.

[Eldouble]

My 140lbs of TBS came full of critters. Good and bad. Im at the 6 month point and I just removed a gorilla crab that was the size of a silver dollar using a commercially available mantis shrimp trap. I read all the posts before I bought from Richard so I knew somewhat what I was getting into. In total, I've removed 2 mantis (one still has his own tank) and probably 40 gorilla crabs. Once I finally removed the Mantis', I would put the gorillas I caught in his tank for them to eat. Now I'm thinking of putting the mantis back in the display tank. He never touched the fish, snails, hermits, or cucumbers in his tank. Only the gorillas. I could use him to eat the rest of the gorillas. Also, Ive not seen the "super sucking, fish gutting, bleach out your tank to kill it" pods in over 3 moths. I had one feed on a clown for about 3 nights. Clown is fine. Had one on a Yellow tang one day. He is fine. Haven't seen one on any of my other 2 tangs, chromis, damsel, clown, hawk, gobie.... you get the point. I also haven't lost anything to a gorilla crab either. Had one nip at an anenome once but that just made it easier to catch him. I have about 8 porcelin crabs (free), anenome (free), 20 corals (free) 2 clams (free) 2 gobies (free) and tons of feather dusters (free). Add that up next time you walk in to buy your LFS and ask for the dead rock @ $8 a lb and all the stuff I just mentioned. All in all, I would do it over again, and I still recommend TBS to anyone who asks. Plus if you dont want to work in your tank, you should by an Aquarium DVD. Cathing a few hitchhikers just make it more interesting.

[scowiii]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10134724#post10134724 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Eldouble
My 140lbs of TBS came full of critters. Good and bad. Im at the 6 month point and I just removed a gorilla crab that was the size of a silver dollar using a commercially available mantis shrimp trap. I read all the posts before I bought from Richard so I knew somewhat what I was getting into. In total, I've removed 2 mantis (one still has his own tank) and probably 40 gorilla crabs. Once I finally removed the Mantis', I would put the gorillas I caught in his tank for them to eat. Now I'm thinking of putting the mantis back in the display tank. He never touched the fish, snails, hermits, or cucumbers in his tank. Only the gorillas. I could use him to eat the rest of the gorillas. Also, Ive not seen the "super sucking, fish gutting, bleach out your tank to kill it" pods in over 3 moths. I had one feed on a clown for about 3 nights. Clown is fine. Had one on a Yellow tang one day. He is fine. Haven't seen one on any of my other 2 tangs, chromis, damsel, clown, hawk, gobie.... you get the point. I also haven't lost anything to a gorilla crab either. Had one nip at an anenome once but that just made it easier to catch him. I have about 8 porcelin crabs (free), anenome (free), 20 corals (free) 2 clams (free) 2 gobies (free) and tons of feather dusters (free). Add that up next time you walk in to buy your LFS and ask for the dead rock @ $8 a lb and all the stuff I just mentioned. All in all, I would do it over again, and I still recommend TBS to anyone who asks. Plus if you dont want to work in your tank, you should by an Aquarium DVD. Cathing a few hitchhikers just make it more interesting.

Amen Brother. :)

[scowiii]

Someone mentioned a trap that you can make. Care to elaborate on the instructions. I have been slowly getting them out but last night was whack. I caught about 12 of them. No fish in the tank but they seem to be breeding because I do feed the rest of the inhabitants the anemone and the peppermint shrimp. So I may be feeding them also in the process. But any instructions on how to build a trap would be great as my pruned hands need a rest. :)

[Seehag]

scowii, a trap for a manits or the isopods? I have had real good luck using the bait and grab approach with the mantis. I got a pair of part extractors from the hardware store, it's 24" long and has a grabber that you can manipulate from above. Put some shrimp or krill down in front of the crab or mantis and when they come out grab them. Works real good, the only draw back is that they might get hurt in the grab but I didn't plan on keeping them.


Art

[scowiii]

Nope just for the isopods. I dont have a mantis. I hear a click everyonce and awhile so I may have one but no biggie as I havent seen any destruction to the tank.

I saw somewhere somebody made something and then the isopods swim in but cant swim out....

[Eldouble]

I think its the same idea as the mantis trap except you keep the cap on. Just drill a 1/8 hole in the cap, cut the top portion of the bottle off and invert it back ito the rest of the bottle.

[scowiii]

ok. Then just bait it with somehign for them to feast on?

[Eldouble]

http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/DIY/diyMantisTrap.shtml

[Untamed12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10172100#post10172100 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scowiii
ok. Then just bait it with somehign for them to feast on?

Yes..it is extremely effective. The really great thing is that it traps ONLY ciranolids....virtually nothing else is small or mobile enough to get into the traps.

They are most active just after the lights go out. Eventually, I got lazy and just left the traps in place all night. That worked very well.

It has been nearly a month since I last saw one.

[BrianPlankis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10242313#post10242313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Untamed12
Yes..it is extremely effective. The really great thing is that it traps ONLY ciranolids....virtually nothing else is small or mobile enough to get into the traps.

They are most active just after the lights go out. Eventually, I got lazy and just left the traps in place all night. That worked very well.

It has been nearly a month since I last saw one.

I'm curious if you ended up using the trap from my article?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/bp/index.php

scowiii, in the link above I describe the trap I made that helped me eliminate the cirolanids from my tank.

While I'm certainly not an expert on Cirolanid isopod distribution, I do know that they are found in every marine environment (except maybe the deep sea vents?) from the Antartic to the Artic. Their density depends upon location, food availabiliy, breeding conditions, predation, disease, etc.

When you buy any aquacultured rock that is shipped in water you will get better survival of the good and the bad lifeforms. Cirolanid isopods are found on live rock from almost any vendor, I've seen reports from both Pacific and Atlantic rock. If you want to purchase live rock from the Pacific to decrease your chance of these bugs, you are also losing all the benefits of rock that still has some life on it.
Pacific rock is for all intents and purposes dead rock.

As someone else said earlier, you get the good with the bad. I really disliked my population I had of them, but I was able to get rid of them using the trap and other capture methods described in my article. Ever since then I've been enjoying the sponges, tunicates, porcelain crabs, cup corals, tube corals and Manicina areolata corals that came on my rock.

Brian

[scowiii]

Thank you brian your article was quite informative and I will be making a trap shortly.

[Untamed12]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10252985#post10252985 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BrianPlankis
I'm curious if you ended up using the trap from my article?

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/bp/index.php

....

Brian

Yes, some nights I used four of them at once.

[BrianPlankis]

Yes, some nights I used four of them at once.

That is awesome! Glad another person found them useful. :D

Brian