Newbie Building A Sump Filter!!

[InADream]

Ok guys this is my first attempt at designing my own sump filter... I have read online quite a bit and have put this together... I am not expecting it to be perfect, I am expecting tons of citique...

The Skimmer is based on RandyStacy`s Skimmer (Great Job Randy)...

The tank size and skimmer size have not been determined yet, this will be filtering a 60 to 75 gallon tank (havent decided yet LOL)

All right lets begin critquing this and hopefully get it correct..

Dream

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/153079untitled.JPG

[eznet2u]

I personally would lose the Bio-balls...they may cause problems down the road. If you have enough liverock they are not needed. In there place, you might add a filter sock.

This is just my opinion...

[Sk8r]

No bioballs, just a straight fall of water into water. If you occasionally need particulate filtration, just shove a little blue-white filter medium in there and take it out within a day.

Your return pump is usually the largest pump. It'll be something above a mag 9.5, which is a bit too small.

[InADream]

Ok this is the latest revised version... With No Bio-Balls... How does everything else look... My Return pump is a 450 GPH pump which will have a valve in line to regulate the flow... Hows That Size Pump?


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/153079untitled1.JPG

Dream

[eznet2u]

The chamber for the return pomp needs to be larger, as this is where you evaporation will show. If you are manually topping off, you will most likely wear yourself out. With a ATO, you will be over working it.

If the GPH is after taking into consideration the head loss to the tank, that is great, as long as you are running powerheads in the tank. I would suggest a couple of Koralia 3's or 4's.

[tigeroscar]

also, putting a ball valve directly on the return line with no where for the extra water the pump wants to push will drastically decrease the life of your pump....tee off your return back to the sump so the pump isnt so restricted when you dont want as much flow in the main tank.

[woz9683]

Is the drain line from your skimmer dumping directly into the refugium portion of the sump? And if so, you'll probably want a set of baffles before the return pump, as that will be the only place to get rid of microbubbles from the skimmer.

[InADream]

EzNet2u, I[ made the return portion a bit larger and will be working on dimensions here soon, as for the pump all it says is 450 GPH with a Max Lift of 10 foot... Is this Ok...

Tigeroscar, I put a new line in the return line for excess water, thanks for the tip...

Woz9683, should I move the return line from the skimmer to dump into the skimmer section, or add the baffles...

[woz9683]

Personally, I would add baffles between the refugium and the return pump. You'd be surprised how far those bubbles can travel when you don't force the water under a baffle. On the other hand, moving the return line from the skimmer back into the skimmer section would certainly help, just not as much as a good set of baffles. For that matter, why not just spin the skimmer a full 180 from the way you have it pictured, and dump the return from the skimmer into the same area where the tank drains, and then add a set of baffles too. Since, you're feeding the skimmer directly from the tank you could really put the skimmer's return anywhere you want.

[InADream]

Spinning the skimmer 180 sounds like a good idea... As well as adding a baffel or two in the refugium... Do you have a good picture of a baffel so i can try and copy it... This is going to be as much of a DIY project as possible... Should have a new diagram up here tonight... Thanks

[woz9683]

A couple more things:

I disagree with splitting the return to the tank. Most pumps can be valved back, at least in small amounts, with no ill effects whatsoever. After all, head pressure creates the exact same force on the pump. Just put a ball valve on the discharge side of the pump, and you can regulate the amount of water returning to the tank that way if it's necessary.

The other thing is, with that size pump, you would NEVER have to valve it back anyway (unless you make your drain lines from the tank like 1/2"). If the sump is right under the tank, you're still probably looking at about 5 feet of head pressure on that pump. You'll be lucky to get 350gph actually being returned to the tank. This will be fine as long as you have some powerheads in the tank for added circulation. But again IMO, on a tank that size you'll probably end up with a 1" drain able to handle 600gph, so why not use a slightly larger pump that can immediately give you more flow?

[woz9683]

Got a sketch: http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/103219sump-med.JPG

[InADream]

Woz9683, I hear what your saying about the pump and not returning the line... I was trying to get away with not having to purchase another pump since I alreay have that one... I will look around and see what pumps I can find... thanks for all your help, and the baffle pic is great...

[coralfragger101]

IMO the above diagram has uneeded baffles.

Here's an actual photo of a simple fuge / sump that I made.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/10gal_Fuge.jpg

The right baffle has a slot cut in it midway down so that water enters the fuge area horizontally rather than dropping over a baffle and possible disturbing the mud substrate. You only need two baffles prior to the pump return section as a bubble trap. Allow the water to enter the pump area from the bottom. If you have water going over the baffle into the pump return area, it could create bubbles simply from the fall.

In your case, you want a skimmer section, so simply move the right baffle over to give yourself enough room to put the skimmer in the intake section of the fuge/sump and allow the skimmer to exit right back into that same area.

[InADream]

Revision 3...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/153079Revision_3.JPG

[surfjeepzx]

Your baffle should be under>over>under. The over baffle will determine the height of the water level in the skimer/return chamber. By having 2 under baffles you are iving the bubbles twice the chance to evacuate vs once with one under baffle.

[coralfragger101]

Surfjee is correct with the under>over>under IF you really want to use 3 baffles. It isn't necessary but it's your sump. With a single baffle using the slot cut in the center it will stop most bubbles within the intake section anyway. The ones that do enter the refugium section will quickly go to the top and will not make it to the other side. I would still suggest 2 baffles on the left side just as a precaution against the waterfall effect within the pump section creating it's own bubbles.

I would make the intake section smaller. You only need enough room to fit the skimmer in it. You will want the pump section larger. Too small of a pump section and that section can actually run dry on start up prior to water making it back down through your overflow system to catch up with itself. This will happen anytime you shut the system down or you have a power failure. Depending on how big of a main display tank you have you may need to lower the height of the baffles a bit. You need to make sure you have enough room leftover so that the water that will empty into the sump on power failure will not overflow the sump.

[coralfragger101]

Out of curiousity, what kind of vertical drop length are you looking at with that pipe coming off your main to feed the skimmer?

You will need a decent drop that basically stays filled with water in order to get a constant pressure. Without a constant pressure you will have a very hard time getting your skimmer set correctly.

Something like this will give you good results.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/overflow.jpg

[InADream]

The drop will be roughly 4ft... I dont currently have the tank or stand everything is in production now... The tank should be here next week some time and the stand will be completed within the next two weeks... Now would it be better if i turned the sump completely around so that the overflow goes straight down and the return will have the bend in the pipe... Will that cause problems on the return... I will make some adjustments to the diagram and see what you think...

Thanks

[coralfragger101]

Personally, I would flip it. I say that because you are trying to run the skimmer off of the overflow. If you weren't then I would say it was probably better to bend your drain line rather than your return line.

Here's a photo of my actual set up:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/Plumb_Rear_1.jpg

That's about a 2' drop before it bends. The skimmer will be connected to the open port. No air bubbles will make it down that far. All the excess is bypassed through the T up high and goes down into the sump.

You will also need to consider the skimmer itself and how much flow your skimmer needs to operate correctly. If you are only pushing 3-400 gph through your overflow and your skimmer needs 4 or even 500 you may have a problem. IF you have to dump all the water through the skimmer then it will be filled with bubbles and make the water level in your skimmer flucuate. I'll have no problems as I'll be running at least 600 gph through my overflow and my skimmer only needs 210.

[coralfragger101]

OR, don't flip it but run the pipe horizontally as high as you can and then come down if this would help make less bends in the return line.

[InADream]

My skimmer is a Homemade 4" Recirc... I followed the plans from RandyStacyE and made my skimmer... I dont know how much those require... As for the plan I have flipped it and will use 2 baffles under,center... The last baffle before the return pump will have slits in the top... Is that adequate, for the bubbles... I am still trying to grasp all this info, kinda like way too much way too fast... Here is my latest diagram... Thanks Coral, i really appreciate you dealing with me...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/153079untitled6.JPG

[InADream]

The next thing I need to begin figuring out with the help of RC is how high and low the baffles should be... I have the dimensions to the tank, they are 30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4... Thanks again Everyone

[coralfragger101]

IMO - it's looking better. I assume that is a slot in the center of the baffle entering the fuge area. Good.

Slots in the top of the last baffle? The problem here is simply the bubble that water going over the baffle can make. That would happen with or without slots. The key is how big the drop is into the pump section.

Actually, My sump originally only had one baffle at that end as well. I simply put a float valve in that end and have the water level in the pump area remain about 1 inch lower than that baffle. With an auto top off, that will work great. IF you are not doing an auto top off then it is this area of the sump that will lose water to evaporation. You may leave in the morning and the level is only 1 inch below the baffle and when you come home it may be 3 or 4 inches below the baffles and splashing and making bubbles and the pump will be sucking in those bubbles and your entire display tank will look like bubbles gone wild. Get the picture?

Bottom line: if you are hooking up an auto top off to this system then the one baffle is fine. If you are going to top off the system then I would add one more baffle to the right of all the ones shown and keep it about an inch off the bottom so water enters the pump area at the bottom.

[coralfragger101]

I would also T off of that main overflow as high as possible. In the photo it still doesn't look like you are giving it much room to build up good pressure to the skimmer.

[coralfragger101]

Hows this? Visually, I'd say the baffles would need to 7.5 inches or 8 inches at the most.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/Sump_Help_RC.jpg

[InADream]

Ok, The T off from the main overflow wil be T'd Off at the highest possible point in the system... Probably going to do it the same way you have it... As for an auto top-off system, I am definately contiplating using one as I plan on getting an RO/DI Unit... As for the immediate future, it will not be in the picture till after the tank is setup and running... Will I have to change anything if I add in a auto top-off system later on down the road... Here is the latest with all of Corals Great Ideas...

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/153079untitled61.JPG

Dream

[InADream]

The biggest thing I am not understanding is how to prevent overflowing in case of power failure... Totally Lost on that subject..

[coralfragger101]

LOL. They way you have it now, you'd probably overflow unless you have a very small tank and little piping. During a power failure or when you shut the pump down then "some" water will drain from your main display, your overflow box as well as the water within the pipes. You need to have room in your sump for all that water. This is easily accomplished by setting the baffles lower. As in the way I redrew your diagram. I actually like that you added that other baffle on the pump end as well.

As far as how far right and left to set the baffles that will depend. Your skimmer section will be decided for you by the size of your skimmer. Have you stated what pump you will be using and the approximate head (how high up are you trying to push the water back into your tank).?

[InADream]

I will probably try the baffles at 5.5 inches... The tank is a 75 gallon, and the return pump is a 450 gph... there will probably be 4 foot of head...I am just worried about the overflow issue especially being here in florida and the power going out every week or so...

[InADream]

Would it be possible to lower the baffles by the return pump even more if need be, since the baffle is over,under...

[woz9683]

IMO the above diagram has uneeded baffles.

Hmm, to each his own. But three baffles, aligned over-under-over is pretty much standard if you actually want to get rid of microbubbles. If you don't do the last "over" baffle any bubbles that make it under the second baffle can get immediately sucked into the return pump. The point of the third baffle is to give bubbles one more chance to get to the surface.

That picture I posted is just a diagram of my sump which has close to 2,500gph flowing through it (the dimensions are very deceptive in the drawing, it easily handles this flow). So, no it's probably not perfect for your application InADream; I was just trying to give an example of what a set of baffles should look like. Two sets are definitely not necessary for your sump, but at least do one full set (3 baffles) or I will almost guarantee that you'll end up with some bubbles being returned to the display.

[coralfragger101]

5.5 would be going overboard. My baffles are over halfway up the tank and I'm running pipes off to two other systems as well and I can see that I could have probably taken them to about 2/3 the height of the sump.

Visualize and guess about how much water will fill your pipes and how much will come from the tank and overflow before they stop. With your tank dimensions you will need to leave one inch of height to accomodate 2 gallons of water. Even if you set the baffles at 8 inches you will have over 4 inches of space which would equate to 8 gallons of water that could drain before overflowing. I highly doubt tha you will have that much.

[coralfragger101]

WOZ - I think you are underestimating the what the length of the fuge itself does. If I was setting a skimmer right next to a pump section then I would definately want more baffles. I believe that InADream will find that there will not be any bubble going under that last baffle into the pump area.

I'm running a Reeflo Dart with only two baffles at the pump end and have no bubbles whatsoever entering the pump

[InADream]

Thanks Guys, i have to hit the hay 5 comes early, I will be back tomorrow night and hopefully get some of the pieces together here soon... Thanks Again to all that have helped and hopefully everyone will be here to help once the project really begins and troubles start..

Thanks

Dream

[coralfragger101]

Morning come early for me as well.

Here's one more for ya WOZ: EcoSystem fuges are well known for being a tried and proven product. I'm sitting here right now looking at an EcoSystem fuge that only has 3 baffles total. One on the input side (with slots in the middle) and then an over>under going into the pump section. I've been using it for years with different pumps, running different flows through it and not once have I had a micro bubble problem in my main dispay.
But you are right - to each his/her own.

[woz9683]

Well, the distance from the skimmer will definitely help. I agree with you on that for sure. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I did have a microbubble problem in an old sump (someone else's design) and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Any chance we can get some pics of your current setup/sump coralfragger101. It sounds pretty sweet.

[coralfragger101]

I have several "current" ones. I'll take some pics tomorrow and post them. Need sleep - tomorrow's a long day.

[woz9683]

The one below your sig line

[JOSEPHLB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9958620#post9958620 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralfragger101
Morning come early for me as well.

Here's one more for ya WOZ: EcoSystem fuges are well known for being a tried and proven product. I'm sitting here right now looking at an EcoSystem fuge that only has 3 baffles total. One on the input side (with slots in the middle) and then an over>under going into the pump section. I've been using it for years with different pumps, running different flows through it and not once have I had a micro bubble problem in my main dispay.
But you are right - to each his/her own.

I DIY'd mine and its similiar to the Ecosystem fuge, with only 3 total baffles in the same layout.

No bubbles at all. I'm all about the "KISS" method.

I don't understand why some people try to complicate things.

[woz9683]

There's nothing complicated about adding an extra baffle. Just a different method.

[coralfragger101]

There are numerouis ways to set up a successful reef system. There is not one way that anyone can possibly say is the "correct" way. That being said, I don't want to hijack this thread with my own system but the topic is help with a new sump so here are a few pics of the sump I just recently created. It's actually 2 - 29 gal tanks connected together.

SUMP 1: Water enters this sump from the main display.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/RC%20Photos/FilterFeeding_Sump.jpg

My Deltec isn't hooked up to the skimmer outlet yet as it is sitting on another frag tank at the moment and can't be moved yet so I just dropped one of my ASM's in this sump temporarily. When completed, this sump will contain filter feeding organisms such as tube worms, bivalves and sea cucumbers.

SUMP 2: Water overflows from sump 1 into this sump.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/RC%20Photos/Cryptic_Sump_2.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/coralfragger101/RC%20Photos/Cryptic_Sump_1.jpg

This sump is covered so that it blocks light out and will be a cryptic zone which will contain cryptic sponges, bivalves and sea squirts.

These baffles are set a bit differently than I would do for a regular sump because I don't want high flow through the cyptic area. As it is set up now the majority of the flow will simply ride across the surface and over to the pump return area.

Overall concept is the zonal method of natural filtration. IF these two sumps take off and generate lots of organisms for me then eventually this new system may go skimmerless. We'll see.

[coralfragger101]

Going Back to InADreams last diagram:

How much of a drop could you get if you flipped the sump back around again and elbowed the drain instead of the return pump?

After looking things back over again I would think it best to keep the return from the pump as straight as possible to maximize your return flow. The drain will be fine if you can elbow that and still get a decent drop down to feed the skimmer.

Geez, my spelling last night wasn't the greatest either.

[coralfragger101]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9958691#post9958691 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by woz9683
Well, the distance from the skimmer will definitely help. I agree with you on that for sure. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I did have a microbubble problem in an old sump (someone else's design) and I'd rather be safe than sorry.


So you fixed your problem?

[woz9683]

Nope, just avoided it until I built the new sump I showed on the last page. It really was an impractical setup with regard to the sump, but I never had a chance to try and fix it while the tank was running (and I didn't know any better when I got it, it was my first setup). So, I just built a new sump for a new system instead. If I ever use the previous display tank again, it will definitely get a new, or at least redesigned sump.

I really like the setup you've got there; the different zones should keep it interesting. Especially if you can get some significant filtration from the organisms in them.