Salifert test kits vs. others

[Scrandrew]

Everyone that I talk with tells me how superior that the Salifert kits are. The others are cheaper. Are they really worth the extra expense, or, will the cheaper brands suffice?

A~

[mavgi]

i use with salifert and other to .

i don't like the salifert nitrate test kit .

and IMO the elos are more accurate but more expensive .

[atvdave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9957343#post9957343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scrandrew
Everyone that I talk with tells me how superior that the Salifert kits are. The others are cheaper. Are they really worth the extra expense, or, will the cheaper brands suffice?

A~

Thats what I was told also.. so I gave them a try.. I do like there CA, ALK, & Mg test kits.. but the rest....

I have gotten bad kits from them and empty promises of replacement kits.

Customer service is non existent.. About the worst I've seen here on RC..

until they get there problems straightened out I'd stay away.. SeaChem makes good kits.

[pjf]

FWIW, I have both the Elos and the Salifert phosphate test kits and I recommend the Elos over the Salifert. The Elos color chart is easier to read and has more data points between 0 ppm and 1.0 ppm.

The Elos color chart is easier to read because it has more contrast between the color fields. The Elos color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.01) to a deep purple (1.0 ppm). The Salifert color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.03 ppm) to only a medium blue (3 ppm). It is harder to read the slight differences between the shades of blue in the Salifert color chart, particularly in the lower ranges.

As the table below illustrates, the Elos chart contains 6 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm. The Salifert chart only has 4 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm.
<table border>
<caption>Phosphate Test Kit Comparison</caption>
<tr><th colspan="2">ELOS<th colspan="2">SALIFERT</tr>
<tr><th>ppm<th>color<th>ppm<th>color</tr>
<tr><td>0.01<td>faint blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td><td><td>0.03<td>faint blue</tr>
<tr><td>0.05<td><td><td></tr>
<tr><td>0.1<td>light blue<td>0.1<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.25<td>medium blue<td>0.25<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.5<td>dark blue<td>0.5<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.75<td>purplish blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td>1.0<td>dark purple<td>1.0<td>light blue</tr>
<tr><td><td><td>3.0<td>medium blue</tr>
</table>

[old salty]

If you've tried all the low end junk out there (as I have), Salifert test kits are a welcome improvement. Fairly easy to use, reasonably priced, widespread distribution are a few reasons they come highly recommended. Once you get a few Elos kits under your stand, you may quickly group Salifert into the ones you used to use. That is, unless (of course) you do not have an appreciation for attention to detail.

[bertoni]

I've used SeaTest-FasTest kits, and gotten good results. Also, some LaMotte and Hach tests have worked well for me. I use a pH meter, but the other common tests I do with Salifert test kits.

[Scrandrew]

Has any had any experience with Red Dea? Good? or bad?

A~

[marsh]

I have not had a good experience with Red Sea test kits....they give reproducible, inaccurate results. It seems to me on reading RC that many folks use a combination of manufacturers dependant on the test. The cost of good tests is cheap compared to the costs of things you might do to your system based on inaccurate tests.

Some recommendations:

1. Ca (Calcium), Mg(Magnesium)- Salifert, Tropic Marin
2. Alk - Salifert
3. PO4 (Phosphate) D-D from Deltec or PO-19 from Hach
4. pH probe - PinPoint; would avoid colorimetric tests
5. other tests Nitrate ; Nitrite , Ammonia - ? dip sticks, Salifert, American Pharm

This thread goes over some results from a German hobbyist groups testing results.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1096135

[cato]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9958632#post9958632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
FWIW, I have both the Elos and the Salifert phosphate test kits and I recommend the Elos over the Salifert. The Elos color chart is easier to read and has more data points between 0 ppm and 1.0 ppm.

The Elos color chart is easier to read because it has more contrast between the color fields. The Elos color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.01) to a deep purple (1.0 ppm). The Salifert color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.03 ppm) to only a medium blue (3 ppm). It is harder to read the slight differences between the shades of blue in the Salifert color chart, particularly in the lower ranges.

As the table below illustrates, the Elos chart contains 6 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm. The Salifert chart only has 4 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm.
<table border>
<caption>Phosphate Test Kit Comparison</caption>
<tr><th colspan="2">ELOS<th colspan="2">SALIFERT</tr>
<tr><th>ppm<th>color<th>ppm<th>color</tr>
<tr><td>0.01<td>faint blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td><td><td>0.03<td>faint blue</tr>
<tr><td>0.05<td><td><td></tr>
<tr><td>0.1<td>light blue<td>0.1<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.25<td>medium blue<td>0.25<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.5<td>dark blue<td>0.5<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.75<td>purplish blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td>1.0<td>dark purple<td>1.0<td>light blue</tr>
<tr><td><td><td>3.0<td>medium blue</tr>
</table>


Where do I find these?? I looked through every sponsor site here and no one seems to carry them.:confused:

[rick s]

Be aware, at least some of the newer Salifert Alk test kits have a problem. See the Salifert Forum.

[GMAX]

Well for PO4 specifically, I like the Seachem test. Much better at low range readings and color chart is easy enough to read. Yellow through green.

[marsh]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5639100#post5639100
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=809536

Some other threads, etc Independant lab eval of various test kits. For Ca and Mg, Salifert appears to be the best. If there are current problems with the Salifert Alk batches would be good to know. Apparently, Habib of Salifert has been ill of late and hasn't answered the board lately.
As for phosphate the two I mentioned are the standard bearers...if Elos can prove it is as accurate and precise we shall see. 2-3 years ago they were not as good as the Merck/D-D kit in terms of accuracy. Someone pointed out recently that they have improved but I haven't seen any independant testing shown.

[Scrandrew]

Are there any accurate test kits for iodine? You know, it is funny, every time you take something for granted, i.e. the accuracy of a test kit, you find out that many people have had terrible results. If you think about it, how can you ever be sure? It makes you second guess every time you go to dose an additive. Even if you find the perfect test kit, you might get unlucky and buy one from a bad batch. I think I will throw all of the test kits out of the window and go on feel.

By the way, I was considering adding a Deluxe Red Sea Ozonizer with probe. WIth much trepidation I ask, has anyone had experience with the accuracy of that probe for redox?

A~

[marsh]

I am not aware of independently, verified Iodine tests. Nevertheless, it not considered necessary to either supplement iodine or test for it. However, should you want to supplement iodine, beyond what you'll get from water changes, many would recommend testing for iodine.

As for O3 and ORP, might be good to start another thread. here is a recent thread regarding ORP
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1121357

I what you mean regarding trusting test kits. But testing is a necessary evil for reefing. Hey, we could start a thread on DIY test kits.....

[GMAX]

<I>I think I will throw all of the test kits out of the window and go on feel.</I>

I think you would hear a lot of experienced reefers tell you they can tell by looking at their tank if something is out of balance. They use test kits to confirm their diagnosis and narrow the possible items that could be the cause.

[Scrandrew]

The reason that I am now married to ozone and am asking about accurate ORP is because of a book that I purchased. It is called ultimate marine aquariums by Mike Paletta. On page 72, there is a reef tank by Ron Huniscker from Williamsport PA. ALthough it is not currently still in existance, I did see his 715 reef at its peak. He had well over 200 fishes in it and it was every bit as spectacular as it looks. He had an ozonizer on it and credited it for some of his success. He was able to heavily feed the inhabitants and between his home-made skimmers and the ozone, he was able to achieve the greatest tank I have ever seen. Based upon that I am thinking of using ozone and trying to find an accurate ORP tester.

A~

[marsh]

I think you would hear a lot of experienced reefers tell you they can tell by looking at their tank if something is out of balance. They use test kits to confirm their diagnosis and narrow the possible items that could be the cause.

I am getting a little bit better at that myself. I think though I will always want to know my pH, Alk, Ca and Mg(at least occasionally).

[carlso63]

I actually like (don't laugh) some of the API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) kits...especially for NH3, NO3, NO4, and -believe it or not - PO4. Why?

Because their "zero" reading color(s) are very different from their "not zero" colors.

NH3 at 0ppm = yellow; any NH3 at all = shades of green

NO3 at 0ppm = pale blue; Any NO3 at all = shades of violet

NO4 at 0ppm = 'pee' yellow; any NO4 at all = shades of red

PO4 at 0ppm = light green; any PO4 at all = shades of blue

since you would want all these parameters at 0ppm anyway, you can tell at a glance if you are off on anything.

Probably not as accurate as Salifert / Seachem on discerning between, say, .1 ppm of PO4 vs. .5ppm - but a much less expensive alternative...

BTW - I have had my H2O tested at the local LFS (he uses all Salifert kits) and so far have never came back with a different level reading than what I got with an API kit...
:D

[Boomer]

I'm not going to pick on the Elos to much but

The Elos color chart is easier to read because it has more contrast between the color fields.

I do not see anything that shows how accurate they are. It is pretty hard to pick on any kit without a know std value. I question most hobby kits.

Does not = accuracy.

Just so some know, SeaTest/FastTest and Kordon are HACH test kits, relabled with a redesigned "cube". If you want to see so called "real" kits check out the link Marsh posted. I made up a big list and you will PAY for them ;)

[Scrandrew]

Thanks for all of the input.

A~

[Icefire]

Boomer each Elos batch are test to NIST standard

[Scrandrew]

I think I will go to the store, discard the most expensive and the cheapest, and then buy the one in the middle.

A~

[pjf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9960978#post9960978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chirocato
Where do I find these?? I looked through every sponsor site here and no one seems to carry them.:confused:
Have you tried the Elos sponsor forum? They are available direct from the Elos USA representative at a discount until 5/31: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1123025

Alternatively, the Elos forum may be able to hook you up with a local supplier.

[cato]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9965463#post9965463 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
Have you tried the Elos sponsor forum? They are available direct from the Elos USA representative at a discount until 5/31: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1123025

Alternatively, the Elos forum may be able to hook you up with a local supplier.

Yep went there and Jesse got back to me already. Thanks for the heads up.

[Glass Oceans]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9958632#post9958632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pjf
FWIW, I have both the Elos and the Salifert phosphate test kits and I recommend the Elos over the Salifert. The Elos color chart is easier to read and has more data points between 0 ppm and 1.0 ppm.

The Elos color chart is easier to read because it has more contrast between the color fields. The Elos color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.01) to a deep purple (1.0 ppm). The Salifert color chart ranges from a faint blue (0.03 ppm) to only a medium blue (3 ppm). It is harder to read the slight differences between the shades of blue in the Salifert color chart, particularly in the lower ranges.

As the table below illustrates, the Elos chart contains 6 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm. The Salifert chart only has 4 color fields between 0 and 1 ppm.
<table border>
<caption>Phosphate Test Kit Comparison</caption>
<tr><th colspan="2">ELOS<th colspan="2">SALIFERT</tr>
<tr><th>ppm<th>color<th>ppm<th>color</tr>
<tr><td>0.01<td>faint blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td><td><td>0.03<td>faint blue</tr>
<tr><td>0.05<td><td><td></tr>
<tr><td>0.1<td>light blue<td>0.1<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.25<td>medium blue<td>0.25<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.5<td>dark blue<td>0.5<td></tr>
<tr><td>0.75<td>purplish blue<td><td></tr>
<tr><td>1.0<td>dark purple<td>1.0<td>light blue</tr>
<tr><td><td><td>3.0<td>medium blue</tr>
</table>


My Elos isn't set up that way.

.01, .25, .5, .75, 1.0 Elos
0.0, .03, .1, .25, .5, 1.0 Salifert (better scale)

And the top that came with the test tube doesn't fit. You have to shake the thing for 5 minutes. I don't like the Elos.

I like the Saifert test kits accross the board.

Don't skimp on test kits because you will either become frustrated or lose faith in them. You will end up buying the better kit anyway.

[marsh]

The purpose of testing water is to get accurate data by which we make actionable decisions. The testing results also need to be reproducible.
You certainly do not want reproducible inaccurate results. We aren't aiming for quantitative chemical analysis but reasonable accurate, reproducible results on which we may act.

As for Elos being based on NIST standards, you need to know if the tests have been done in seawater. NIST standards are either in powder or liquid form. The liquids, although often have an inert salt also, are prepared in fresh water. To my knowledge there are not NIST standards for solutes in seawater. Seawater has a relatively high ionic strength which will alter the activity of an ion. The activity of an ion is what effectively is being measured and decides the chemical interaction with other ions, enzymes, reagents, etc. If the reagents or the intereptation tables are designed for fresh water the result for seawater may not correlate well. For an example titrating for alkalinity will require different indicators to find the equivalence point/end point since both the indicator and carbonate species behave differently in a high ionic strength versus low ionic strength solution.

Anyway, I do not have any direct knowledge of the accuracy and precision of Elos tests. To my understanding the have gone the extra yard to make their tests more easily readable. That does not mean they are accurate or not. One of the purposes of RC, as I see it, is to independently verify vendor claims. Sometimes it is through logic, sometimes through hobbyist collective experience, sometimes through objective testing....

BTW....my thoughts are possible/probale in error but this is how I am trying to wade through things. If some one out their wants to fully "edgjucate" please do.

[Boomer]

ice

Boomer each Elos batch are test to NIST standard

That doesn't mean anything and is a sales pitch. Each SeaTest Swing Arm Hydrometer is also checked against a NIST std and tey don't' even advertise it. Lots of things are checked against NIST/NBS stds. Why ? To see how far off they are. Each manufacture then packages said "toy" as long as it is within +/- x ppm (we'll say) of the NIST std.

You/they are telling me that in their PO4 kit they did a

.01 against a NIST, .25 against a NIST, .5 against a NIST, .75 against a NIST, 1.0 against a NIST.

Do you have any idea how much money a NIST std costs. Were did they get these NIST std from ?

My only complaint about the kit is the lack of low resolution steps. The readings go from 0ppm to 0.01ppm then takes a huge jump up to 0.25ppm on the next step. I would like to see a few more steps between 0.01ppm and 0.25ppm

That and the one you have Glass Oceans is a European chart. The USA chart is the one posted buy pjf.

[Boomer]

Scrandrew

Based upon that I am thinking of using ozone and trying to find an accurate ORP tester.

Don't' be buying a ORP tester but a ORP meter or controller. Those testers are not worth a crap and seem to have serious issues in seawater.

[pjf]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9965787#post9965787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Glass Oceans
My Elos isn't set up that way.

.01, .25, .5, .75, 1.0 Elos
0.0, .03, .1, .25, .5, 1.0 Salifert (better scale)

And the top that came with the test tube doesn't fit. You have to shake the thing for 5 minutes. I don't like the Elos.

I like the Saifert test kits accross the board.

Don't skimp on test kits because you will either become frustrated or lose faith in them. You will end up buying the better kit anyway.
Elos USA can supply you with the updated chart or kit. The differences between the two charts are noted in the picture at this URL: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8377482&highlight=mistake#post8377482.

The USA chart specifies waiting 2 minutes (not 5 minutes) before viewing the results.

You are correct about the test tube cap that leaks when it is shaken. I had to replace the cap with a rubber stopper.

[pjf]

Here is a recent post regarding the accuracy of the Salifert Phosphate Test Kit:
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9984538#post9984538 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Yinger
Even if your phos registers 0 on the salifert, you'll still get phos readings from the hanna. Out of all the salifert kits, i'd say the phos is the most inaccurate.
The readability of the color charts is still an issue. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the Elos kit but at least you can easily determine the parts per million (ppm) from its color chart and test its accuracy. If you can't read the Salifert color chart to determine the ppm, you can't even measure its accuracy.

[Boomer]

Being a devils' advocate :)

The readability of the color charts is still an issue.

Yes it is but not unless it is tied in with accuracy. That readability is of no good either if the kit is not accuracy. I have not had an issue reading Salifert charts although I will not say it is the best in readability. Some people need to be "trained" to read charts/kits properly. Habib had some blind studies done a couple of years ago on this forum where he sent out free kits with known and unknown sample to the volunteer tester.

That post by Yinger says nothing about accuracy. Who says that Hanna meter is more accurate. Again you/they are assuming it is because it is meter with numbers on it. Just like so many assumed refracts where accurate when we showed they are not. That Hanna needs to be tested against a known seawater sample, anAAS std or a "real" NIST std . It could actually be worse in accuracy than the Salifert or kit x, y or z.

[pjf]

I agree that a user needs to be “trained” in reading the Salifert Phosphate color chart. That need for training makes it of little value to most hobbyists. The accuracy of a test kit cannot be ascertained if one cannot read the chart.

We can also agree that the Salifert Phosphate test kit does not detect low levels of phosphates. As pointed out by Yinger, the Salifert kit detects no phosphate when other kits do. This leaves the Salifert kit open to charges of “false negative” readings.

[Boomer]

As pointed out by Yinger, the Salifert kit detects no phosphate when other kits do

Where I do not see that anywhere ? There is no mention of other kits only the Hanna meter.

Even if your phos registers 0 on the salifert, you'll still get phos readings from the hanna. Out of all the salifert kits, i'd say the phos is the most inaccurate.




needs to be “trained” in reading

That is many kits and not just Salifert. Allot has to do with light and background color. That is what I meant by " training"

The accuracy of a test kit cannot be ascertained if one cannot read the chart


That is a few/some that have that issue with Salifert and again chart accuracy means nothing if the kit is off and many are even with nice colored charts. You seem to be pushing that a nice color chart by itself makes a kit more accurate and you need BOTH. You can not have one without the other.


Salifert Phosphate test kit does not detect low levels of phosphates


The Elso has no 0 and the Salifert does. And I will question their .01 accuracy. As no test kit on this planet claims .01 other than Elos. Not even a spectrophotometer for a few hundred dollars. The MTL is .02 ppm PO4. Elso seems makes allot of off the wall claims IMHO.

[Fliger]

I'm a pretty big fan of Elos products - but also a huge fan of Salifert. The only Salifert kit that I can't stand is the PO4, I think its useless for reefers - especially SPS'ers. I use the Merck/Deltec kit and really like it. I'm also picking up a Hannah in the next few days, I can run tests using all three. I don't think I have an Elos PO4 kit - but I'll order one from Jesse when my new sump comes in. I've only used their DKH & CA kits so far and really like them, I've found them to be just as consistent as my Salifert kits.

I'll run PO4 tests on my tank water & some dirtier water with -

Deltec/Merck
Salifert
Hanna Colorimeter

And I'll use the Elos when it comes in.

As far as Elos & off the wall claims - I don't really agree, in fact just about everything I've ordered from them has several cool features that they don't even advertise (particularly on their tanks & controller). Just my experience, though!

[Boomer]

off the wall claims

Claims as their so called NIST remarks. Corals have to have Sr otherwise they can not survive. Having a need to add or market a Barium sup for reef tanks, their GAC having 1500M^2 TSA, the PO4 kit test to .01 ppm and that is just a quick look :)

I want them to explain how THEY can make such remarks or have such products when know one else does or makes such claims and all from a aquarium company.

[Fliger]

Ah, well Elos is just one of many companies I really like - I'm not validating or sticking up for them - just posting my experiences with their hardware (echoe'd by other RC users as well). As far as NIST, I have no idea - but I can just tell you that three words come to mind when thinking about Elos - Anal, Overbuilt & Redundant. Like when I wanted a light but they wouldn't sell it until their European fixtures were gutted, sent to Icecap and all internal parts are US standards. I was willing to take one with a transformer but they wouldn't sell it that way. I know that doesn't have anything to do with test kits, but given their attention to detail, and not really targeting the mass market - an NIST (whatever that is :lol: ) wouldn't surprise me. I just know I like the two test kits I've tried so far. Then again I've been duped before and will definitely be duped again! :)

[elosusa]

Boomer please give me a call and we can discuss all of these things.

[marsh]

elosusa...please let us all know your discussions regarding NIST, seawater, etc and Elos testing kits. We could all be educated.

[elosusa]

yeah not a problem. Honestly I was going to try and use Boomer as a source more than anything else:) Althought Elos is a ten year old company we are new to the US and we are always looking for ways to improve. On the NIST samples I offered this in my forum but our forum doesn't get the exposure that these main forums do but Italy has told me on a few occasions that they would be happy to provide the samples, provided the the person pays the fedex charge to see how our test kits perform. I am not a chemist and I have been explained how the NIST validation is done but repeating it and remembering it is another task;) I will take better notes when I discuss this in the future. I do know on each one of our packs of 6 or 12 their is a batch sheet with the NIST logo and a signature from a Dr. that guarantees the results provided the kits are stored below 77ºF. I can also say that we have a few things that I think are important that don't get mentioned very often.
Child proof locks on dangerous reagents. Very important to me.
Glass vial instead of a plastic vial that tend to get cloudy quickly.
Raised logo on the back to signify dangerous chemicals in the event that there is a site impaired person in the house.
Our distribution, although limited is very well controlled as I usually get test kits in on air shipments and are stored below 77ºF until they leave to the store or end customer.
As with all of these test kits we are using a similar, if not exact same procedure and a lot comes down to the user, distribution/warehousing and obviously, initial quality. We are a small operation and I appreciate Fliger and others coming in this forum and stating their experience with us and our products. In the end we are offering an option and when I decided to get involved with Elos I was also impressed with the amount of attention that goes into even the smallest detail of our products, now the website, that is another thing:lol: This is not to say that we are perfect or better but I believe we make a good product and with discussions like this I am sure we will continue to improve.

[elosusa]

*

[Scrandrew]

I was the originator of this thread, many days ago. I have been following the blog and generally speaking most users are pleased with your company ELOS. As I am just re-entering the hobby after a three year hiatus for the birth of a child, I have no test kits. What do your kits cost and where do I buy them. The web site provides limited help.

A~

[elosusa]

Give me a call or send me an email and I can help you out. Also checkout the elos usa forum here on RC so I don't get in trouble for advertising on a public forum;)

[marsh]

Elousa

The degree of skepicism regarding test kits has mainly to do with a number of kits that are not accurate or precise. Most folks find things that work or have proven to work after 3rd party eval. or other senior reefers can vouch for the accuracy. Elos PO4 kits did not get a good review by German reefers a few years ago. The kit may have changed.
As to NIST standards they do not come in seawater. The tests would need to be in seawater as the ionic strength is different from fresh as well as interfering ions may alter the test results.

Trust but verify is what the community needs.

[elosusa]

Marsh,
These are valid questions and I can certainly ask these questions about our validation process. The reef club test I believe you are referring to was done on an old/different test kit. When we came to the US we changed some of the kits and the PO4 may have even changed after that german reef club test was done before it was changed prior to coming to the US, I am not sure. As I stated I think these discussions help us and if you have suggestions feel free to give me a call as it seems you may have a background in this field and may be able to offer suggestions.

[tmz]

Recently bought a salifert calcium test kit. My calcium went up miraculously by 150ppm without doing anything. After running the test again and again the calcium didn't go down. I searched my tank for percipitant and and was tempted to recalibrate my two ph meters since the ph didnt decline which it had to do since the calcium result was at 580ppm. I tested 438ppm solution provide with my seachem kit and the salifert said it was over 600! Keeping things straight in water chemistry is hard enough without wasting time and money on a totally inaccurate product.

[Boomer]

I just had a nice 3 hr conversation with Jesse form Elos. Jesse is a pretty good guy from what I see from our conversion and one that is more than will to learn and take the extra step on issues.

We covered lots of issue and some not even related to this hobby :)

So here are some of the things brought up

1. NIST. The reason behind this word is that the Italian's where looking to give us something to look at, that was known in the USA, respected and gave them some line of credit that they care. They had some USA NIST certified company make them up some know values using NIST chemicals. With the stds they then check batches of the kits. How close the kit is to the NIST std is another issue on where they draw the line. As we discussed, there is no such thing as a NIST certified test kit, where color cards are used. Your just can't, all you can do is get close. They also may reword the website for us so it is not a misleading. Allot of this has to do with translation.

2. PO4 kit. There kit does not detect down to .01. They use that .01 has their zero mark, while others may use zero. Their reason behind this is that there is not such thing as zero in a reef tank, so the kit should not have a zero mark. So, again a little misleading but that was not the intent and they also may re-edit that so it is less confusing. On that, I have no issue with the .01 as a zero mark.

3. Sr and Br. They use the term "detrimental" a bad and misleading term / my remarks and are planing on maybe changing it to a better worded format. Again more of a translation thing. The remark on Br. Although I found it misleading it was just added to inform the user that the product also has some small amounts of barium in it. One could, I guess, do the same thing with may products, such as kalk not being just pure kalk or baking soda not being 100 % NaHCO3. They should either drop the term Br or add more to it as why they have a remark on it.

4. The GAC and having a claimed 1500m^2. No answer for that, so we are working on it. I also explained the "acid washing" term and that most grossly misuse this term and do not understand what it means. You WANT your GAC acid washed. Acid washing has NOTHING to do with Phosphoric Acid. Acid washing has to do with the use of nitric or hydrochloric acid for the reasons of giving the GAC more active sites, opening up the pore structure a little and removing contaminates like Ash.

[Boomer]

tmz

You may have gotten a bad kit. All manufactures have or produce bad kits from time to time or the reagent goes bad or is out of date. And NOT just hobby its either ;)

[Yinger]

haha, didn't think my opinion was going to be used here. But let me clarify what I was trying to get at. I've been using the salifert test kit as a gauge to see where my phosphates might be at. However, after using the salifert, it always came out clear due to my phosban reactor. I've heard of people complaining that the salifert is innaccurate so I bought a hanna to measure against that. Even with the salifert registering 0 under natural daylight and also under daylight bulbs, the hanna still registered .03. i believe the hanna has a margin of error on it as well, however I believe it is more accurate than the salifert with low range measurements.

Also, I've never tried any other phosphate test kits besides these two so I can't say for the accuracy of those. That's why my claim was made towards salifert test kits only. I love the alk, CA, MG and even the nitrate kit is okay... but the P04 test kit, I can't stand.

[Boomer]

Thanks for coming Yinger and for your remarks to clear things up :thumbsup:

[Yinger]

no prob just hope nothing was taken outta context :D

[elosusa]

Marsh,
Well I talked again with Boomer and I am sure he will be able to explain it better but I will give it a shot. As he has stated we talked yesterday and we followed up again after I was able to speak to the doctor who is responsible for validating Elos test kits. Again, I am not a chemist and I tried to take notes but I am sure I will butcher at least some of what was explained to me. As Boomer explained in his recent post on this issue, a lot comes down to the wording on the elos website for many of the things in question and this can be easily fixed. There was no intention to mislead, just a different choice of words and perhaps some clumsy wording.
So onto the validation process. Each elos test kit, as all test kits I assume, is taken from standard methods that are published and nothing to do with one brand or another. Where things differ is the "compromises" each company takes in orde to provide a good price point, safe product, ease of use, etc. Elos has decided not to use poisionous reagents (ALL REAGENTS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED DANERGOUS) in favor of reagents that are not as dangerous and have a relatively long shelf life and sometimes this decision results in a test kit that may be better or worse for a given customer. This is more of an ethical decision on our part and we want to provide an accurate but as important, a safe product. Again, this is the compromise we all face.
The NIST validation that is in question and the fact that they are not available in seawater is what was not clear. We validate the reagents with a NIST standard through a NIST certified laboratory. As it was explained to me there are standard methods that are used to make these reagents and NIST samples are used to make sure our reagents are the same as these NIST samples. They gave me an example of a Mg test and said something to do with edta (chelants) and how there is a known value in the reagent and this is what is NIST validated. As stated before we have chosen what we believe is the best compromise in terms of the intended use and the available published methods and then we validate the reagents are accurate within our kit before they are shipped. Boomer can hopefully come on and explain it better, or perhaps you can make it more clear. I hope that clears up at least some of the questions and please let me know if you have any other questions about this as this process has certainly helped me out, as well.

[Boomer]

Close enough Jesse. I won't dive into to it unless some demands it :) To much typing and Dick & Jane examples :lol: