Need advice on a sick Tang. Picture.

[Stealth70mde]

Hello,

My step brother put in place a tank 6 weeks ago then he started adding fishes, corals and inverts to it like crazy against my advice but anyway... The inevitable happened and now he has what seems to me like a very bad case of Ich.

I have my tank for a little more than 1.5 years and never had Ich so I have a tough time helping him.

See the picture below and let me know if this is Ich (maybe something else).

What can I suggest him to cure this.
He has inverts and corals in the tank so I assume no copper and a QT tank.

He says all params are ok but didn't had a chance to check myself.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/113417IMG_2096_1.jpg


Thanks.

[demonsp]

Bummer.

[bertoni]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Good luck!

[Tupps11]

Holy Ich. That poor fish is covered.

Kinda tough to treat without a quarantine tank. Hope ur bro learns from this.

Good luck

[Shagsbeard]

A quarentine tank can be almost free. All you need is a tub and a heater. A filter is a plus, but isn't mandatory... it will save you money on waterchanges though. That tang is suffering from more than just ich... but treating the ich is your first priority.

[sublime-1]

Quarantine, hyposalinity. (1.021 - 1.022 SG)

[rrrrob]

Bad water quality is causing the stress leading to ich....get the water corrected and the ich should go away on it's own if it isn't too late....

[sufunk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9990479#post9990479 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sublime-1
Quarantine, hyposalinity. (1.021 - 1.022 SG)

Hypo needs to go down to 1.009 if i'm not mistaken. 1.021-1.022 wont do anything for ich, sg needs to be much lower.

[Aquarist007]

Cleaner shrimp will help---they will hop right on the fish

There is a recipe on the side of the bottle of garlic guard--it has been well recommended on another post here---

Watch your temp fluctuations--2 degrees or more---can cause ich.

The ich lives in the water---it is always there--so quarantine is not the answer---rather use garlic based foods and garlic guard to build up the immunity systems of your fish.

[stuccodude]

extreme garlic is working for me

[alan214]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9990527#post9990527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Cleaner shrimp will help---they will hop right on the fish

There is a recipe on the side of the bottle of garlic guard--it has been well recommended on another post here---

Watch your temp fluctuations--2 degrees or more---can cause ich.

The ich lives in the water---it is always there--so quarantine is not the answer---rather use garlic based foods and garlic guard to build up the immunity systems of your fish.

Cleaner shrimp will not do anything to help cure Ich. Neither does the use of garlic products. All garlic does is stimulate a fish's appetite if it's not eating. Sometimes, simply improving a sick fish's diet will help the fish fight off the infection so a good first step is to feed better food more frequently.

These 2 misconceptions cause the loss of many infected fish because of the delay in treating them with an effective cure like a copper-based treatment or hyposalinity (SG of 1.009)

A quarantine/hospital tank is this Tang's only hope. The Ich is best treated with hyposalinity for 6 weeks. It appears to have a fungus problem as well but the Ich is probably the first priority.

[Sk8r]

Must qt, must treat, or that fish is a goner. It'll get into his gills---probably is. I'd go copper-based treatment or hypo. Fast. And I'd lean toward copper-based, which I ordinarily don't like, because it is a poison just marginally more lethal to the parasite than to the fish---however, that is such a bad case that fish doesn't have too much time to live if something isn't done really fast. Both treatments require, absolutely require, a bare qt tank/tub, constant monitoring [twice daily] of salinity and water quality, no carbon in whatever filter you set up for it [none of those pads with carbon: use pure filter floss or blue-white medium], and good temperature control. THat's a beautiful creature, and it deserves a good effort at saving it, but you have to move now. You need nitrate/ammonia test strips and a refractometer if you can possibly afford the latter; evaporation will concentrate salt and raise salinity, and you have to be ready to top off at least daily. No light is necessary, but a heater will be---just use the one from the tank.

[Stealth70mde]

Thanks guys for the numerous posts, solutions and concerns for this poor creature.

I abosolutely agree about the urgency of the situation. The problem of my brother is that he seems to only listen to what the LFS tells him because it is more pleasing to hear than what I have to tell him... I said, go slow, he goes fast. I said study your stuff before diving, he dives head first without getting informed more than what the LFS tells him... :mad2:

Anyway, I go back home this weekend and will check this very seriously.

Poor little things (because there are more than one fish affected).

Thanks.

[rrrrob]

I seem to be an outsider here, but I never use copper, hyposalinity, etc. They don't fix the problem. The problem is the water quality--high ammonia because of rushing with the stocking. Get the ammonia down and the ich should clear up on its own. I know people will disagree, but I've actually bought ichy fish from the store, introduced them to my healthy tank, and within a day or two, the newcomer is clean and healthy and no problems with other inhabitants. I have done the copper thing in the past and it never worked--just depressed the already-overloaded biological filter and made things go downhill that much faster...I've done the freshwater dip (useless), malachite green, etc., etc...none of this stuff ever worked. And copper stays in your tank LONG after you've "removed" it...not good for shrimps, and other inverts your brother will probably want to add down the road.

[alan214]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9991105#post9991105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rrrrob
I seem to be an outsider here, but I never use copper, hyposalinity, etc. They don't fix the problem. The problem is the water quality--high ammonia because of rushing with the stocking. Get the ammonia down and the ich should clear up on its own. I know people will disagree, but I've actually bought ichy fish from the store, introduced them to my healthy tank, and within a day or two, the newcomer is clean and healthy and no problems with other inhabitants. I have done the copper thing in the past and it never worked--just depressed the already-overloaded biological filter and made things go downhill that much faster...I've done the freshwater dip (useless), malachite green, etc., etc...none of this stuff ever worked. And copper stays in your tank LONG after you've "removed" it...not good for shrimps, and other inverts your brother will probably want to add down the road.

I don't know how many times you tried hypo to treat Ich or how you went about it but this is very much a tried and true method of treating Ich. Numerous RC members have used this approach to rid their fish of this disease. I can't speak to why it failed to work in your case but I belive it is a bit irresponsible to totally disregard what is considered by most to be a scientifically-proven method.

True, Ich can clear up on its own occasionally but this happens in a small minority of cases. It is very dependent on water conditions, the initial health of the fish and other factors. Most people choose to take positive action rather than gambling on their fish's health.

As for treating with copper, you NEVER do this in your display tank if you have liverock and/or inverts. This is pretty much common knowledge if you do any amount of research here on RC.

[bertoni]

Marine ich is an identifiable organism, and it can be eliminated from a tank with effort and a bit of luck. Since animals can develop an immunity (often partial) to parasites, sometimes the problem will go away (at least temporarily) on its own. I'd prefer to eliminate the organism, so that ich won't return if something in the tank goes wrong.

[ocnluvr]

There is also a "new" thing on the market. some say it works others say it does nothing. But a uv sterilizer. It drags parasites out of the water constantly. Ther're inexpensive and could help u down the road. Also my per store, very trustworthy, sold me medicated flakes that i feed to my fish weekly, kind of like immunizing. Let me know how it works out.

[sunfish11]

I seem to be an outsider here, but I never use copper, hyposalinity, etc. They don't fix the problem. The problem is the water quality--high ammonia because of rushing with the stocking. Get the ammonia down and the ich should clear up on its own. I know people will disagree, but I've actually bought ichy fish from the store, introduced them to my healthy tank, and within a day or two, the newcomer is clean and healthy and no problems with other inhabitants. I have done the copper thing in the past and it never worked--just depressed the already-overloaded biological filter and made things go downhill that much faster...I've done the freshwater dip (useless), malachite green, etc., etc...none of this stuff ever worked. And copper stays in your tank LONG after you've "removed" it...not good for shrimps, and other inverts your brother will probably want to add down the road.


I have read all the data and I must admit that I have experienced the same as this poster. I also agree that amonia levels help promote ich outbreaks. I have also bought fish with ich and witnessed it go away never to return in my tank. I know the results are not in because there hasn't been enough research on garlic, but feeding high amounts of garlic does seem to do the trick. If that was my fish I would make sure the water quality as far as amonia goes is spot on and then I would feed it copius amounts of garlic. Theoretically this helps mask the chemical signature of the fish and it just doesn't taste good to the parasites. If you can remove the fish then quarantine and treat it with copper and or hyposalinity. As I stated what works for me is of garlic all the time. Not just when you see an issue. Also good water quality expecially when it comes to amonia.

It looks like the fish also has some Lymphosytis (sp?) in addition to the ich.

Good Luck!

Lisa

[bertoni]

Lots of people have tried UV sterilizers and garlic and failed. I suspect the positive reports amount to cases where the fish developed immunity. The garlic might help if it encourages fish to eat.

[hansonfam]

HI there.

Out of curiosity where is your brother from?

I just sent my naso to a lfs and am truly hoping that isn't him as he sold in 3 hours after arriving:)

LIsa

[alan214]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9996166#post9996166 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sunfish11
If that was my fish I would make sure the water quality as far as amonia goes is spot on and then I would feed it copius amounts of garlic. Theoretically this helps mask the chemical signature of the fish and it just doesn't taste good to the parasites.

Are you suggesting that Ich dies when fish eat garlic because the garlic tastes bad to the trophonts?

[Stealth70mde]

Again, thanks for the additional info guys.

I personally was lucky so far with so Ich outbreak in 1.5 years.

For Lisa (hansonfam), I work in Calgary but live in Montreal as my Bro. So not the same fish. :fish1: :fish2:

Really, the biggest problem of my brother is that he wants to be at the same stage I am only after 1 month of starting the tank... Obviously, at this speed, he missed the curve and hit the wall bringning with him all these defenseless creatures... :furious:

Don't want to seem like I give morale lessons here but please, to all the new reefers around here, don't force nature, take your time, read, do small adjustments unless critical and your reef will be pretty predictable (most of the time) once you understand the patterns and signs it gives you.

Cheers,

Marc.

[Stealth70mde]

Oh, I forgot...

I have an UV sterilizer that I don't use. I will lend it to him when I come back home this weekend.

If it works, good, if not, we will have tried everything given the sad situation.
I will tell him about the Garlic, again, better to try since the fishes are pretty much doomed if we don't do anything.

Now the fishes are in a 20G QT tank with Ich-X with hypo at 1.010.

He MSNed me this morning saying that one of his Brown Tang is dead... What a shame...

Don't know how long the others will live... The two false percs are fine supposedly.

Marc.

[eddified]

when i first got my blue tang it had a seriously nasty case of the ichies....wanted to treat the darn thing but impossible to catch and not worth tearing down my entire tank to get at it....just kept it well fed and water quality optimal and it kicked the ich and hasnt got it again since....this worked for me (probably just lucky) but i probably wouldnt recommend it...just wanted to let you know theres a chance it may pull through on its own :)

[Nano Chris]

If he doesn't take your advice, its his money, so let him do what he wants, hopefully it gets him out of the hobby when he looses everything, so he wont do this again. Sorry to be so harsh, but thats the way i see it if he doesn't help those fish.

[Stealth70mde]

Hey Chris,

I don't find you harsh at all, you are absolutely right and I totally agree with you.

Cheers,

Marc.

[Aquarist007]

Ich is a bacteria that either exists in the host or in the surronding ecosystem.IMO it is impossible to completely irradicate it therefore you should concentrate on building the immunity systems of the fish up so they are "less" prone to getting it or they get a small dose for a short time.
I think the analogy to us is similar--we are hosts to bacteria--occasionly we get run down and they take over--eventually our immunity system (sometimes with the help of penicillin) wins out again--the bacteria never are irradicated--just exist at a controllable less harmful level.
Foods that are garlic based tend to build up a fishes immunity system over a long period of time.
Uv sterilizers help keep bacteria at low levels
Very little changes or rapid changes in the environment put less stress on immunity systems.
A guarantine tank should be used when you first purchase a fish so if you have to treat it because its immunity is severely down you can without trying to catch it in your main tank--not really for protecting the other fish--assuming you have been doing the above steps to build up their immunity systems

[alan214]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9998700#post9998700 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
Ich is a bacteria that either exists in the host or in the surronding ecosystem.IMO it is impossible to completely irradicate it therefore you should concentrate on building the immunity systems of the fish up so they are "less" prone to getting it or they get a small dose for a short time.

You CAN completely irradicate it by keeping your tank fishless for at least 6 weeks. No host fish, Ich has nothing to feed on and it dies. It does not lie dormant in everyone's tanks as some people think, although it can be on your fish and show little or no outward signs if the fish is pretty healthy.

If ALL fish are quarantined and treated with hyposalinity, you can be sure no fish is harboring the disease. If these steps (hypo and QT) are taken, you can totally get rid of Ich. The problem is that most people don't want to go through all the trouble required, which is understandable.

[Vitaly]

My gosh...there is so much misinformation and anecdote in this thread. Granted there have been some good gems of wisdom, but all in all I have to disagree with the majority of comments posted.

1) Cryptocaryon irritans is not a bacteria, it is a holotrichous ciliated protozoa (this is taxonomically different and needs to be treated differently).
2) Garlic treatment has no immunity boosting effects (this has been repeatedly shown and will waste precious time in treating a sick fish).
3) Using a UV sterilizer will not help rid a tank of ich (if you understand about the life cycle you will immediately see why).
4) A system can be totally free of ich, when appropriate steps are taken (run fallow for 6 weeks and then do not introduce infected fish)

Stealth70mde that is a beautiful fish and I sincerely hope that he is treated and recovers. I would encourage you and/or your borther, to ignore the anecdotes in this thread and go to the experts source/literature. In addition to the article that bertoni suggested, I would strongly recommend reading the following series of articles; they are well written and very comprehensive.

News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans
by Terry D. Bartelme

Intro and overview
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com...ium_fish_1.html

Life cycle
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com...ium_fish_2.html

Conventiental treaments
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com...ium_fish_3.html

Alternative treatments
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com...ium_fish_4.html

Conclusion, strain variants, treatment variants
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com...ium_fish_5.html

Good luck...

capn_hylinur...your analogy is entirely inappropriate in this situation. The human body plays host to more bacterial cells than mammalian cells...and that is not hyperbole, that is fact. The difference is that those bacteria are called commensal and are part of the normal host microflora that we benefit from. Without them, we as the host suffer. Marine ich is a parasite...and by definition it is alway detrimental to the host.

[Stealth70mde]

Thanks Vitality for all this information and the links.
I will read and study this very carefully.

Also, find below an updated picture of the sick Tang, 24 hours after the first treatment using hypo at 1.010 and Ich-X.
You can compare to the two pictures and see the difference.
Colors are wrong but you get the idea.

Much better but the fish was so full of Ich that it had to go better or simply die. He his not out of trouble yet though...

What are those large white spots on the latest picture you think? Scars from the parasites?

48 hours ago
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/113417IMG_2096_1.jpg


Today, 24 hours after 1st treatment
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/113417IMG_2186_2.jpg


Thanks!

Marc.

[Stealth70mde]

My brother added to the QT tank the other sick fishes.

The tang showed in the picture is breathing better.

Marc.

[Sk8r]

Good for that. Tell him test the hospital tank for nitrate and salinity: little tanks are tricky and can get out of params way fast. This guy's been through enough.

[Stealth70mde]

yes, indeed, I will tell him to carefully check that.

I'm back in my hometown Friday and I'll pay a visit to my step brother making sure everything is in order.

Thanks.

Marc.

[Vitaly]

Kudos on getting the other fish into quarantine. Encourage your brother to let the display run fallow (without vertebrates) for the full 6 weeks. I know it is difficult...I have done it myself...but is the best strategy in the long run.

Further, Sk8r brings up a great point about staying on top of the nitrogen cycle in the quarantine tank. I would suggest maybe buying one of those cheap, disposable ammonia monitors that sticks/floats in the tank. For example:

Ammonia Alert
http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/AmmoniaAlert.html

Virbac Mardel Live NH3
http://www.petguys.com/-084942592500.html

I personally have not used one yet, so cannot speak to their reliability, but it adds one extra method for rapid monitoring of nitrogen in the tank.

Good luck...

[Stealth70mde]

Vitaly,

Thanks again for the great info and support.
6 weeks is a long time for him...

But I will strongly suggest anyway,

Marc.

[Stealth70mde]

Vitaly,

Could you post the URLs you posted a few post earlier?
These ones: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritants.

I wanted to read but they don't work for some reason.

Thanks,

Marc.

[Vitaly]

Marc,

I tried them...and they are not linking out of the RC page. I think I know what happened...so lets try again :-)

News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans.
by Terry D. Bartelme

Introduction
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_1.html

Life cycle, Identification, Symptoms, etc
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_2.html

Reliable/Traditional methods of treatment
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_3.html

Alternative methods of treatment
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_4.html

Issues of immunity, adaptability and protozoal variants
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/aquarium_fish_5.html

I would say that 1 through 3 are must reads for any with a marine tank.

[Stealth70mde]

Works perfectly!

Thanks!

[Stealth70mde]

One last question but an important one...

How long should the fish be treated with Hypo 1.010 and Ich-X ?

Thanks,

Marc.

[rrrrob]

I did the UV sterilizer thing also...I finally gave it up and threw it away...I have yet to understand its use, and many people blast water through it at such a high rate that it is useless anyway. I have heard about sterilizing a tank to completely rid it of ich, but ich exists in nature and only attacks weakened specimens (especially in polluted areas). For me, my philosophy is that if ich shows itself, you have something wrong with your water quality and/or temp. and the ich actually is a warning sign that something needs to be fixed. Without ich, you may have water issues that you don't even know about...just my opinion, of course. And just because it goes against some popular current beliefs don't mean it's wrong--remember--it was thought the earth was flat at one time :) It works for me, but feel free to stress your fish with netting, dipping, copper poisoning, temperatur raising, hypo-ing, etc., as you see fit...

[Vitaly]

I did the UV sterilizer thing also...I finally gave it up and threw it away...I have yet to understand its use

UV radiation induces chemical bonds to form in DNA, thus leading to arrest in reproduction of the affected cell(s). A UV sterilizer is a good tool in the hobby, but not for Ich. I will refrain from getting into the explanation for this here, since it appears in many articles already, and would simply refer you to read about it there.

And just because it goes against some popular current beliefs don't mean it's wrong--remember--it was thought the earth was flat at one time.

Although the popular opinion was once that "the Earth is flat"...that is now no longer true. That opinion was dispelled by scientific study. The Earth is round...there is no disputing it.

Indeed, the opinion that there is "...something wrong with your water quality and/or temp. and the ich actually is a warning sign that something needs to be fixed" has become the modern equivalent to the "Earth is flat" philosophy. Fortunately, there is no reason for this hobby to think that "the Earth is flat" and approach marine disease as if we are living in Greek Antiquity.

Scientific study of the infectious agents have revealed details about the ecology, life cycle, epidemiology and pathology of the causitive agents; such as Cryptocaryon irritans. Treatment of the infections may cause some stress (netting, transferring, etc), but it is a lesser evil than watching a fish succumb and die of the disease.

[rrrrob]

unfortunately, i have tried those "solutions" (except garlic) and the fish died anyway...I have had much better luck with my approach, and I'm no newbie.

[rrrrob]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10006475#post10006475 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rrrrob
unfortunately, i have tried those "solutions" (except garlic) and the fish died anyway...I have had much better luck with my approach, and I've been around awhile (like 22 years at this).

[bertoni]

Hypo should be run for at least 6-8 weeks. There reportedly are some hypo-resistant strains of ich, but the odds seem very good that the treatment (along with leaving the display tank fish-free for the same period) will eliminate ich completely.

[Aquarist007]

[i
capn_hylinur...your analogy is entirely inappropriate in this situation. The human body plays host to more bacterial cells than mammalian cells...and that is not hyperbole, that is fact. The difference is that those bacteria are called commensal and are part of the normal host microflora that we benefit from. Without them, we as the host suffer. Marine ich is a parasite...and by definition it is alway detrimental to the host. [/B]

It is amazing what misconceptions you learn in this fantastic hobby. This is what makes this forum valuable. Can you imagine if we all lived and raised our reef tanks as loners without a place to bring out misconceptions etc that we have learned---we would not have half the success that we have with our tanks.
What is also great is the respectful way you are treated or corrected on this forum.
You have to post--you can't sit in the background forever--in order to grow in knowledge--yet at the same time you have to have the confidence that if you are wrong you will be corrected in a productive way.

Thanks again
Scotty

[Vitaly]

I have yet to see anyone in this thread, or the others that you posted in suggest you are a "newbie" or question the number of years of experience you hold. But therein lies an important truth.

We should give more weight to the observations of a handful of ecologists/microbiologists/marine biologists who have spent their careers meticulously working on these problems than the anecdotes of the few hobbyists who saw somethng or heard something once (this is a general comment...not a shot at you).

The mere fact that a relative of mine went into remission from cancer without any radiation or chemotherapy does not argue that all individuals diagnosed with cancer should remained untreated.

I am sorry to hear that the other "solutions" were not beneficial in your situation. But I would suggest that the following factors be considered before writing off altogether:

* was the approapriate treatment being used for the situation (I could take antibiotics til my face turns blue, but it is not going to make my viral infection resolve sooner).

* was the treatment being used approapriatly (a "subclinical" dose of an agent, like copper, is unlikely to be of any benefit).

* was the treatment approach bonafide (I have seen people do a 1 minute freshwater dip for marine ich and then immediately return the fish to the display...obviously this will not work either).

I hope that yours, and the other readers here, have fish that continue to remain disease free. Unfortunately, that is unlikely. Thus, I hope that we can at least be properly informed so that we make the best decisions towards the care of our animals.

[Vitaly]

capn_hylinur since you quoted me...I can only assume your post is directed at me.

First let me say that my comment to you was not about "this fantastic hobby." Rather it was about your anlagy to the immune system...a subject that is very important and dear to me.

Secondly, with respect to your view that "what is also great is the respectful way you are treated or corrected on this forum."...let me say the following...

The postscript of mine that you quoted is definition and fact. If you find offense in that, there is little I can do. I did not call you names or insult your intelligence. However, I did say that "your analogy is entirely inappropriate." And although I maintain that position, I have no problem telling you that I sincerely do apologize if that offended you. It was not meant to be an inflammatory comment.

[rhunt]

ok correct me if I am wrong but my reading of capn_hylinur last post was that he appreciated being set correct on HIS assumptions...did I miss read that?

[Vitaly]

rhunt...I hope you are correct, but honestly I was unclear whether the comment was genuine or sarcastic. I decide to err on hte side of caution and my response was to temper, not fuel, any further frustration in this thread and just get back to the matter of treating marine ich.

[techigirl78]

Has the larger white growths on the naso gotten better? Usually once itch sets in, the fish become susceptible to a whole host of problems. Hopefully it clears with hypo as well.

Has its discoloration gotten better since the last picture?

Best of luck to you and your brother! Sometimes lessons just need to be learned by an individual. Too bad for the animals in this case, but hopefully they will all pull through!

BTW - If you do use the UV Sterilizer, make sure to replace the bulb every 6 months or get a new one if you think it is already past its expiration date.

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10007224#post10007224 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vitaly
rhunt...I hope you are correct, but honestly I was unclear whether the comment was genuine or sarcastic. I decide to err on hte side of caution and my response was to temper, not fuel, any further frustration in this thread and just get back to the matter of treating marine ich.

100 PERCENT COMPLIMENTARY AND APPRECIATTIVE, VITALY and to the others on this forum.

We all forget sometimes how impersonal email can be and how it can be interpreted different from how you meant.
Scotty:)

[rrrrob]

FYI, there is another discussion going right now (fish disease treatment forum - "Hypo'ed display tank. Did I mess up?") where someone noticed ich on a new fish he introduced. He began to do the hypo thing, another poster was telling him to douse the poor thing with copper, then he noticed other fish were coming down with ich. It is developing into a situation where his test kits were giving false readings. My initial response was that something was wrong with his water, even though he stated his amonia and other parameters were ideal. Hypo'ing and copper should not have been used in this particular case (and frankly, in my opinion, they are never necessary) --a lot of his live rock/worms have now died because of the amonia (and hypo'ing?), fish were still dying, things were still going downhill for him. Hopefully, he will recover...but no thanks to copper or hyposalinity! But again, yes, these are my opinions ONLY--I don't even play a marine biologist on TV!

[Vitaly]

rrrrob...I would prefer to not see a debate in Stealth70mde's thread continue; particularly one where other RC members problems are introduced. This thread should be about his sick tang and methods to remedy the disease.

You are entitled to your opinion, which seems to be that marine ich appears when "something was wrong with his water." However, I believe that in the matter where disease is involved...that evidence based treatments are the best advice, and not just opinion.

So rrrrob, I will ask for you to please direct me to any links/articles that contradict the statements by Terry Bartelme in section 5 "Myth and Misconception" from News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part I. I have heard the idea that ich is caused by bad water (back in 1997 when I started a freshwater tank), but have never seen any bona fide, controlled evidence to support it.

Otherwise I ask that this debate and/or battle of opinions end...or at least move away from this thread.

Vitaly

[Stealth70mde]

Hey guys,

I think this thread can end here now.

The sick tang has died late Friday as me step-bro announced me. :(
Although there seemed to be some amelioration of the Ich symptoms for a while, the poor fish was probably too weak and stressed to resist to such an outbreak and the treatment provided. Maybe the parasites attacked the gills more than I anticipated and the fish suffocated as per the article mentionned by Vitaly previously.

Again, a big thank you for you all your advices and might this be a humility lesson for my bro...

I was not expecting that many replies, diversed opinions and facts to be presented to me and the RC community.

Best Regards to all of you,

Marc.

[rrrrob]

rrrrob...I would prefer to not see a debate in Stealth70mde's thread continue; particularly one where other RC members problems are introduced. This thread should be about his sick tang and methods to remedy the disease.

You are entitled to your opinion, which seems to be that marine ich appears when "something was wrong with his water." However, I believe that in the matter where disease is involved...that evidence based treatments are the best advice, and not just opinion.

So rrrrob, I will ask for you to please direct me to any links/articles that contradict the statements by Terry Bartelme in section 5 "Myth and Misconception" from News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans, Part I. I have heard the idea that ich is caused by bad water (back in 1997 when I started a freshwater tank), but have never seen any bona fide, controlled evidence to support it.

Otherwise I ask that this debate and/or battle of opinions end...or at least move away from this thread.

Vitaly

newsflash: you do not get to say who can and can not contribute to this thread....

[jdthomas24]

blonde Naso tangs have a greater change of fungus much like the two big spots you see on the fish. the ich- well you have heard it from all other members. I have had ich in my tank all over my blonde naso, yellow belly hippo and sailfin and i only treated it with a healthy dose of food with vitamins to help the fish fight it off for themselves. Some do not mind a med tank while others like myself try to feed better and let their immune systems take over.

[Floowid]

I will say I am in total agreement with rrrrob. The problem isn't with the presence of Crypto parasites in the water, that exists 100% of the time in the wild, in the reefs we all try to emulate. And Capn's analogy was correct, had he used streptococcus or staphylococcus bacteria as an example instead.

Given the original picture of this Tang, I would say that poor fish was dead before the debate ever started here, and what killed it was being irresponsibly put into a 6 week old tank.

And to the OP, if your brother was unable to hold off on this purchase, I doubt you will have any luck convincing him to let the tank run fallow for 6-8 weeks, but I hope you can try.