Ok Reef Chemistry Gurus..

[92reefer]

Well I'm still trying to hunt down the problem in my 92 gallon reef tank. 4 months on the downside and I lost both my SPS frags and 2 large clams. Now the hearty button polyps and mushrooms that came with the rock years ago are slowly melting away.

All my parameters are in reason:

CA 400
ALK 8.0 DKH
MAG 1250
PH 8.0-8.1

I have a Berlin system..simple. Just an AQUAC EV-180 with a 10 gallon sump. Rock does filtration. This reef is also about 5 years old. Shallow DSB about 3-4 inch average.

Last resort I replaced my 20K hamilton 175W metal halide bulb. Still didn't change the fact that the corals are fading and I have deep red/scarlet/purple algae that has been growing over the last 4 months. It's covering about 40% of the rock now.

Last source. I check my KENT 60G RO/DI and the TDS meter says 1. Should be excellent water quality. Here's where it gets interesting. I remember that I did an 8 gallon water change on my son's Nano-cube and his tank is also growing the same type of deep red algae on the sand and some of the rock. Water source is my problem. But how with TDS at 1?

I recently had a local fish store check my product water for Phosphates and Nitrates and they both came up NIL. So I used a 3 year old Ammonia test just for the heck of it (Seates packets). It was off the scale!!!! I'm wondering if the test kit is still in the ball park? If it is that could be the problem but how. I am using the original Membrane in my RO/DI but I just changed the mech filter, carbon block and DI cartridge. Since I measured 1 on the TDS and I have use the optional flush kit every time I make top off, I didn't think that the membrane needed to be replaced.

So here I wonder whether some noxious chemicals were being passed to my product water without being picked up by the TDS? I have just slapped in a new replacement membrane and in the process of flushing for the first 10 gallons.

My fingers are crossed. This doesn't work, everything goes up for sale!


One other thing. My local fish store told me I should get a refugium working under my tank to stabilize things but I don't have much room down there. Said I could easily take a 5 gallon bucket, drill for 2 bulkheads and add CHEATO (some kine of macroalgae) with a reverse light schedule and would do my tank wonders. Anyone think that will help and care to share their details on "how to" make a homemade refugium??

Sorry for the long post but I'm exhausted with this battle!

[ihopss]

what is your salinity, you have said nothing about that, what are you using to test it with.

[T Man]

Have you considered your lighting? Did you place the clams on the bottom of the tank and how deep is it? It's possible that you starved the clams for lighting. I had to move my clams up to the center because the 150watt MH's that I use was not sufficient. TinMan

[BLockamon]

I personally don't think a 5-gallon fuge would do much for a 92-gallon tank. In addition, if your nitrates really are 0, then you don't need cheato.

I'm not sure what type of algae you have (any pictures?), but assuming it is slime-like, you're probably looking at cyanobacteria (which isn't really algae at all).

First off, if your ammonia is really off-scale, then everything would be dying (or most likely dead), including any fish.

Second, I'd recommend getting your own test kits for nitrate and phosphate. I don't trust readings unless I do them myself.

Third, you can still have phosphate feeding algae/cyano but read 0 in the water. Basically, the algae eat it as fast as it's produced. Also, silicate can feed certain types of algae (actually diatoms) and is usually the first thing to break through on RO and DI.

I'd recommend running some GFO (Phosban, Rowaphos, PHOSaR) to make sure phosphate and silicate are not a factor.

[92reefer]

Funny how no matter what you test, there's always the suggestion that it's not accurate. How the heck do you really know?

My salinity read differently (what a surprise) on 2 instruments. About 1.025 to 1.026 on the refractometer I own. Oddly enough I read about 1.023 on my cheap plastic Deepsix hydrometer. Which one is right..who the heck knows. I guess it's somewhere in between?

Lighting shouldn't be the culprit since I just changed the bulb and the fact that my Hammer coral frags which were placed high in the tank were doing fine before things started to fail. The clams were down in the tank but also were doing well with the the frags until they all started to go down hill.

I just got back from the petshop with a sample of my old product water. They said it read 0 on nitrate ammonia etc.. but said the PH is problem at 8.9 read with a proble in their system. How can that be when I tested my PH at 8.0 to 8.1 with my fresh Salifert kit? This is nuts. No matter what I use or what I test with, nothing is definitive..

[marsh]

.As for:
Salinity I would trust your refractometer as long as in has been calibrated with a standard saline (PinPoint 53 mS) type solution (not RO/DI)

?temp

pH - who knows but I would guess the Salifert is at least in the ball park. pH probe would be better.

"deep red algae" ?cyano would indicate nutrients are not nil. Kind of unusual that your LFS recommended a refugium (even a tiny one) given they have your nutrients at zero. Another option at least for Nitrates would be "deep sand bed in a bucket"

"fading corals" what do you mean? are they bleaching, browning, or necrosing. What is going on with the clam?


NH4 - get a new kit...kind of unusual given nitrates are reported to be zero

? toxins - consider testing for Cu....possible failure of RO/DI...exposed equipment copper.....airborne...?insecticides....?ammonia based cleaner

? H2S - does the water have an rotten egg odor

Death of sponges, or other weird animals like sea apple?

? stray current - I have no clue how to test for it though

? water change habits and recent water changes

What supplements do you add?

Photos of your tank may be of some use. rock, clam, coral...
Sounds like you have a "tank of death"....

[Bri Guy]

Ive read of people replacing there sandbed from time to time (every couple of years?) Could it be that your old sand bed is leaching stuff back into the water (im assuming its the original 5yr old sand?)

Not speaking from experience, just something Ive read about, and trouble shooting for you.

Good luck!!

[marsh]

http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/press04/11.23.04b.htm
http://www.illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/pressroom/2006_07/20060728a.html

BTW do you use well water. The Cystal Lake ground water does have some toxins. I know you use RO/DI but one idea is that it is failing.

Just a thought

[bertoni]

I agree that getting a second opinion on the ammonia test would be good. The SeaTest ammonia test always seemed to work for me, but that kit is a bit old now.

What TDS is the tapwater? How about the brand of salt in use?

[92reefer]

OK

Temp about 82 (was around 78 degrees for the most part during the cold weather 3 months ago when tank started to decline so I doubt the temp has much to do with it)

Fading corals? they just slowly shriveled up and died. I think necrosing describes it best although I'm not entirely sure what the means. The clams just started opening less and less each day until they were falling apart

Tank water doesn't have much of a smell but my RO/DI replacement water had a funny smell. Can't really tell what it smelled like and I don't know that it wasn't always there. I keep the water in 5 gallon plastic "water cooler" tanks

I have a grounding probe in the water to negate any stray current/voltages

I have to admit that I do rather infrequent large water changes but I really don't have that much to pollute the tank though.. 2 tangs that graze on the algae and I rarely feed the tank anything

Supplements are right off this forum...I've been using baking soda, Kent turbo-calcium and Mag-flake/epsom (7&1/4 mag to 3/4 epsom mix per Randy) to get ALK, CA and MAG levels in check. That's it!

Sand bed...hmmm. It is original but I've never heard of needing to replace it. Any truth to that theory??

Crystal Lake tap water.... TDS of tap is about 322. I was getting 1 out of the RO/DI.

One thing to note. I replaced the membrane on the RO/DI unit and flushed out for 4 hours. I tested the product water with the same Seatest Ammonia and got almost 0 now. HMMMM... This was with the DI cartridge out as well as I didn't get it installed back in the system after flushing the membrane. Could this be sign that the membrane was failing?

[boxfishpooalot]

What are you phosphates? That is the #1 killer of calcifying organisms.

[92reefer]

PO4 tested 0 with a Salifert test kit.

OK, last night I flushed the RODI membrane for about 4 hours but only got about 8 gallons of product water. Seemed low. Tested the output water again with the Seatest Ammonia kit and got close to 0. OK started filling up one of my 32 gal trash can for a large water change. This morning (on for about 8 hours) I only have about 9 or 10 gallons of product. Just for the heck of it I break out my TDS.

It reads 38! What the **&&%%$$ The TDS was reading 1 with the old membrane which is suspected of leaching things through it. How can I replace the membrane, flush it, throw the DI cartridge back in and the reading screams to 38?? Water is off for now until I figure out what I did wrong

[HowardW]

<<< but my RO/DI replacement water had a funny smell. >>>



A bad smell from the water coming out of the DI side typically means your DI resin is spent and requires immediate replacement.

[AZDesertRat]

What is your tap water temperature and pressure? Both have a big effect on RO output. Does your water utility use chloramines to treat your tap water instead of free chlorine? This could easily account for the ammonia which should not be present otherwise. What is yout tap water TDS, RO only TDS without DI and RO/DI TDS.

[92reefer]

My tap water is TD is around 322, very hard water. Not sure if Crystal Lake uses chloramines but sounds like they might.

OK, I measured the TDS of the product water sitting in my 32 gallon container which had traces of dried salt from the last change. Thinking that might be my the 8 or 9 gallons mixed with the traces read 38, I took a reading straight from the RO/DI output and it's 2!!!

I'm guessing that it was reading some of the molecules from the dried salt? I'm thinking that it's OK to continue filling the 32 gallon container and use that for my water change? 2 should be acceptable right? Just not sure why it's higer than the reading from the old product water with the old membrane?

Should I continue on with the makeup water at this point? FYI, I called Kent and told them about the 38 tds. They said the membrane now ship fully dry and need to be flushed under pressure before use. He suggested pressurizing the system, then shut if off, keep the output higher than the unit and let it sit to fully hydrate the membrane for a week! I don't want to wait a week since my tank is so bad right now.

Think it's OK to proceed with the TDS at 2? I just hope my recently replaced DI (and carbon and mech block) back in July isn't toast now?

[HowardW]

Again, if you're getting a bad/rotten smell from your DI water, that typically means your DI resin is spent and needs replacement, a TDS of 2 from the DI side would also confirm that IMO. If your DI is working properly you should be getting 0 TDS assuming your TDS meter is reading correctly.

[stevemc]

Does your refractometer read specific gravity too? It should read salinity. Test your tap water for ammonia. Maybe do several large water changes, to get it all cleaned up, using a known clean water source.

[92reefer]

Crap. That means that the DI (replaced July 06) is bad and I don't have any replacements available.

Just curious here. I smelled the product water after the membrane was replaced and I don't smell it? I'm wondering if it was chloramine or some other contaminants coming through from the bad membrane?

[92reefer]

Talked to Kent again and he said that if the smell is gone and the product water doesn't read any ammonia, then the problem is probably gone. I asked him how to check if my DI unit was good or bad. I have the HI-S DI cartridge and he said it's harder to tell than the normal DI cartridge.

It comes with a 2 inches of yellowish beads on the bottom and they are still yellow. The remainder is a mix of bluish bead and tan/yellowish beads with silicon mixed in. He said that it will change to a dark burgundy color starting at the bottom as it exhausts. I don't see the dark burgundy color anywhere so I'm assuming the DI is good. I'm continuing with filling my 32 gallon containers and will do large SW change. Crossing fingers here..

[92reefer]

After aligning the levels in my tank about a week ago, I checked the ALK this AM as I haven't added anything to the tank other tan top off water. My ALK is low again. It's like the ALK keeps dropping in the tank but the CA holds steady around 390-400?

Should I boost the ALK in the water change water? I'm thinking it will be low with such clean RO/DI water? Also should I boost the MAG with the MAG/EPSOM mix and possibly CA?

[AZDesertRat]

I would say without even looking your resin is probably well exhausted if its been since July 06. You should not be seeing a TDS of 2 from DI. A good rule of thumb is one pound of mixed bed resin will treat about 2000 total TDS. Its not scientific but you would ba amazed at how accurate it is in most cases. Using that figure, if you are putting a RO TDS of say 10 into the DI then you can expect to treat 200 gallons before it is shot. You need that RO only TDS number, it is very important. Always test directly from the filters and not from a storage vessel, even dust in the air can skew readings and plastics certainly will. I use a squeaky clean clear glass drinking water glass dedicated just for that use and aleways triple rinse it with DI water after each sample along with my meter so they do not get any residue buildup on them.

Again, you need the tap TDS , RO only TDS and RO/DI TDS numbers. Not to put Kent down but if I were buying a new membrane I would seriously look at getting a hand tested and guaranteed 98+% Spectrapure SpectraSelect membrane in the same price range as the Kent. Its a much better membrane as it is hand tested and guaranteed unlike any other. They are also shipped wet in a special solution which adds to the production rate and efficiency for some reason.

Something most people do not realize is DI resin once exhausted starts releasing everything it has captured back into the trated water. The kicker is it releases it in huge spurts that are usually much much higher than what it was initially. The weakly ionized substances go first and they include nitrates, silicates and phosphates among others and you don't want any of those in your reef. Don't try to stretch DI resin too far or it will end up causing big problems for you.

[bertoni]

Boosting the alkalinity is fine. Some baking soda dissolved in RO-DI water sounds fine to me. I didn't see any calcium and magnesium numbers after your first post, and those looked fine, so I don't think they need to be dosed.

The TDS of 2 is suspicious, as is the smell from the water. I suspect the tank will be doing better once it deals with whatever the RO-DI unit was doing or not doing. It's possible for spent DI cartridges to release a lot of ammonia:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.php

[92reefer]

Good advice Rat but I don't have any replacement cartridges that I can pick up locally and I really want to get a larger water change done this weekend.

I did test for PO4 and it was 0. If phosphate isn't coming through, wouldn't you think that the DI is kind of working? Assumption on my part

[AZDesertRat]

If it were me I would remove the DI cartridge and use RO only before I would use an older unknown DI cartridge. I don't trust hobbyist grade test kits on ultra pure water. It hard to measure things in RO/DI water accurately besides conductivity/resistivity or TDS thats why its the universally accepted method. DI water is so agressive you just can't accurately test it.

[92reefer]

Well my 32 gallon container is still filling up after about 18 hours. I also checked the TDS and it's gone up to 3 from 2. I'm assuming one of the other filters is bad now... foam block, carbon or DI although Kent maintains that the DI would not be bad at this point?

Guess I'll just do a 32 gallon water change for now and order replacement cartridges. Does this sound like the best approach for the short term?

[snorvich]

I would purchase water from an LFS that produces it. It sounds like you may be adding more problems with the water change from your unit. I would also get a better phosphate test than Salifert. I also think you might consider having extra DI and RO cartridges around so when your TDS becomes non zero that you have replacements. I concur that Spectrapure might be a better way to go for RO/DI units.

[AZDesertRat]

Prefilters and carbons have no effect on TDS, they are there to protect themembrane which removes bulk of the TDS and the DI polishes it off. For the third time now, CHECK THE RO ONLY TDS! That number is going to tell you a story. It is very possible your DI TDS is higher than the RO only TDS and that is a very bad thing, it is adding weakly ionized stuff back into your water!

[92reefer]

OK Desert;

Checked the levels:

1) Tap water is 322 (very hard Crystal Lake water)

2) TDS out of RO is 18 (through foam block, carbon and membrane)

3) TD out of RO/DI is 3 right now

Desert, what does this tell me?

[marsh]

AZDesertRat

I know you like Spectrapure
Are there any other RO/DI units you like?

What about TDS meters? Some of the Spectrapure units have built-in TDS meters...are those OK or do you recommend others?

[AZDesertRat]

18 is way too high for RO only. You should be seeing no higher than maybe 8 if that (98% rejection). My tap was 815 day before yesterday and my RO only was 0nly 6.7. How old is your membrane and have you always used high quality replacement filters and done the recommended changes at 6 month intervals and disinfected the housings, these are all very important steps.
As for membranes there are not a lot of good choices. Most vendors sell 75 GPD Dow Filmtec membranes which are as good as they get off the shelf. Others that are very close are Applied Membranes and GE Water-Osmonics. Stay away from 100 GPD membranes. The difference with the Spectrapure SpectraSelect membranes is they are always kept wet in a special solution, even from the factory to their test facility. Then they hand test them one at a time, each and every one not just a sampling for output quality and flow rates. No one else offers this service or guarantee but its worth it as you can see by my numbers.
The 6.7 I am getting now is actually high for me. I just went to a dual membrane piggyback system for more flow but the TDS suffered a tad. With the single membrane I was getting a TDS of 6.0 to 6.4 with my normal tap water TDS of between 850 and 900.
Spectrapure uses the same HM Digital inline meters at least for now. They tell me they are developing a new inline meter that will really be temperature compensated and will have a small microprocessor in it with look up tables for temperature correction. It should be out soon as I have seen a working prototype in their shop. For now I would stick with the handheld HM Digital COM-100, nothing comes close for accuracy and its so easy to use and calibrate.

With a RO TDS of 18 you should expect about 167 gallons of treated DI water per vertical 24 oz cartridge. This again makes me believ yur cartridge is way past its prime and is doing you harm. Install a new DI cartridge and track the TDSand gallons and you will find I am very close.

[92reefer]

So even though the testing for Ammonia is gone and the obvious smell, you don't think it'd worth doing a 32 gal water change at this point.

It's going to be awhile to wait for any changes to the RO/DI since I have to mail-order the replacement cartridges etc...

Man, this stinks!

[HowardW]

If it was me.......I'd order all new filters and a DI cartridge and go to Walmart today and buy 30 gallons of distilled water for about 20.00 to do a water change right away, JMO.

[92reefer]

OK. Doing water change right away (32 gallons worth) but I need salt. Only buckets I can find right now is Reef Crystals. Is that OK to use instead of I/O. If I remember I/O had better MAG levels but other than that not sure what would be bad about using the Reef Crystals?

[HowardW]

<<< If I remember I/O had better MAG levels >>>


It's the other way around, and using RC would be fine.

[92reefer]

Cool!

RC it is...

[92reefer]

Quick question:

My local fish store told me to add CHEATO to my tank to help leach out excess bad nutrients.

I'd love to add a refugium under my tank but have absolutely no room. But I have a 10x14x10 area of my sump (CPR1000) that is completely empty. This is fed from the standpipe or tank return to lots of current. This chamer exits through holes in the bottom section and then under a 1" opening in the sump divider to the pump section (MAG 1800 return pump and MAG 7 skimmer pump).

Can I just use this area for a kind of refugium by adding cheato and a cheap type of light on a "reverse" daylight schedule? I can add more tank water to keep this chamber about 1/2 full. Will this work as a refugium? I'm guessing if the cheato grows good down there, I can harvest it as way to get bad nutrients out of the water??

[92reefer]

One more question. LFS suggested hanging PFO pendent from ceiling and getting rid of "green" all glass lid.

I know there are screw holes on top of the PFO and it came with some eye-hook type of hangers that screwed in there but I don't know what I did with them and can't find them. Can anyone tell me how to suspend my hood? Should I rig my own or can I buy a ready-made system for hanging pendents (I have drywall ceiling above)?

[bertoni]

The DIY forum might be a good place to look. I don't know anything about suspending lighting from the ceiling.