pickling lime?

[ghostrida3]

how do u make kalkwasser from pickling lime from the grocery store. i cant find this info anywhere?

[Hedonist]

I used pickling lime once instead of kalk, my tank was not happy, I went back to kalk. Maybe I did something wrong, I still have the better part of a case of PL left.... anybody that wants it is welcome to it :)

[ghostrida3]

what differences did u notice when u used the pickling lime?

[psyco_guy_abd]

They are the same thing. Same chemical compound. No differences.

[ghostrida3]

where do u get it from , i just went to publix and kroger none there. also i can mix it the same as the desinger brands, jst 2 teaspoons per gallon?

[J. Montgomery]

I use Mrs. Wages pickling lime. I add ~1Tbsp per two gallons of RO/DI water; you could try starting with 1tsp/gallon. It can be hard to find in regular grocery stores, check with farm supply stores (if you have 'em in your area).

[ghostrida3]

ime in Georgia we defintly got those! thanks.

[rick s]

Click here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

[Hedonist]

My Montipora cap turned from a beautiful orange to a skeletal white within a few days...

[jumpincactus]

Hedonist

what recipe were you using and what was your drip rate. I have used Mrs. Wages for a long time and never had any problems. I also know many,many reefers that use it with no ill effects.

One coral going south on you is not indicitive of the limewater. If it were the limewater you would think it would affect more than one coral. I have seen corals bleach out for no reason in tanks that were not supplimented with limewater. If used correctly limewater/food grade is in my opinion safer than LFS brands.

Ghost you can get Mrs. Wages online google it... I get approx 6 20 oz jars for 15 dollars. It lasts a year. Lot better than paying thru the nose at the LFS for the same compound marked up 1000%

The recipe is 1 teaspoon to one gallon of RO. Make sure you only drip as much as you lose in evaporative loss. You can overdose so be sure to mount your supply away from the tank/sump so that it cannot fall in.

Dont let one persons bad luck keep you from using it. There are a ton of very knowledgable reefers including a lot of high profile guys that have good luck with it.

[jumpincactus]

Hedonist

what recipe were you using and what was your drip rate. I have used Mrs. Wages for a long time and never had any problems. I also know many,many reefers that use it with no ill effects.

Ghost you can get Mrs. Wages online google it I get approx 6 20 oz jars for 15 dollars. It lasts a year. Lot better than paying thru the nose at the LFS for the same compound amrked up 1000%

The recipe is 1 teaspoon to one gallon of RO. Make sure you only drip as much as you lose in evaporative loss. You can overdose so be sure to mount your supply away from the tank/sump so that it cannot fall in.

Dont let one persons bad luck keep you from using it. There are a ton of very knowledgable reefers including a lot of high profile guys that have good luck with it.

[IslandCrow]

I know Randy has said the aquarium brands may be purer than the lime you buy at a grocery store, but I've been using it for at least a year with no issues. Kind of hard to mix it wrong too. You can use it at full saturation (about 2 tsp per gallon), so you really can't add too much lime to the water. Of course, like jumpincactus said, you can add to much of the limewater solution to your tank (has to be dripped slowly), so keep an eye on your PH. I did recently read a post about some potential nasty stuff in the precipitate, though, so whatever dosing method you use, be sure not to get the white stuff left on the bottom. Also, make very sure you're getting "pickling lime" and not pickling salts or pickling spices or pickling anything else.

[bajabum]

Phospates are in the sludge. I pour the lime into a gallon milk jug, add RO and shake it up. When the liquid is clear, I pour it of and use it leaving the solids (and phospates) behind. Add more RO and go again. I use lime water to maintain a stable base Ca source since it doesn't dissapear as quick as baking soda and CaCl. I still use CaCl and baking soda on a daily bases, but lime water provides a better overall Ca stability.

[ghostrida3]

I found it a kroger for 2.76 and theirs like 3x as much in the cannister vs the designer aquarium brands that are 25$ and up.
Great deal! what happens if u use tap water w/ this stuff? i havent got around to getting a good ro unit(its important, i know i know)

[moumda]

It may actually take out some of the impurities in the tap water but a good rodi is best.

[IslandCrow]

Yeah, definitely don't use a lesser quality water than you'd put in your tank otherwise. Randy did write an article about some experimentation he did that showed limewater removed some impurities from the water. I believe there were a few heavy metals on the list, but it certainly won't take out all the bad stuff out of tap water.

[einsteins]

I have found quite high po4 reading with Mrs. Wages (testing water from my reactor)...I have switched to ESV Kalk mix and now po4 is not detectable with High res Salifert test kit.

ein

[IslandCrow]

ein, I can't remember if it was you or someone else who posted that same finding in a different thread, but many others (including myself) have not gotten the same result. Are you waiting until the limewater is completely settled before you test? Have you tried using a new vial to run your tests. Even glass vials can retain residual phosphates after rinsing. Just to make sure I wasn't smoking something last time, I ran a phosphate test again with a Salifert test kit, and the water is perfectly clear. . .0 phosphates. BTW, I use fully saturated limewater (>2tsp per gallon). I don't use a kalk reactor, though. I wonder if that might be part of the issue.

[bertoni]

If there is phosphate in Mrs Wages, it should precipitate if given the chance. A kalkwasser reactor might not allow that. I'm not sure how useful a phosphate test kit would be on limewater. I'd ask the manufacturer or check the label.

[PatMayo]

I too have used Mrs. Wages for a long time. No ill effects. The coral problem could be caused by something else.

Regards,

Pat

[IslandCrow]

Bertoni, perhaps a little off topic, but out of curiosity, could you explain (in layman's terms) why a phosphate kit wouldn't work with limewater. Is it a different type of phosphate or is there some other chemical reaction going on that makes the results invalid?

Oh, or is it this little note on the directions that says, "Erroneous results might be obtained when the carbonate hardness is higher than 20dKH"? Guess I never noticed that before.

[bertoni]

Actually, they might work perfectly well (other than the one with the side note :)), but I don't have any idea how phosphate test kits work, so I'd not assume that lime won't interfere or cause problems in some way.

[ramullinax]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10018801#post10018801 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bajabum
Phospates are in the sludge. I pour the lime into a gallon milk jug, add RO and shake it up. When the liquid is clear, I pour it of and use it leaving the solids (and phospates) behind. Add more RO and go again. I use lime water to maintain a stable base Ca source since it doesn't dissapear as quick as baking soda and CaCl. I still use CaCl and baking soda on a daily bases, but lime water provides a better overall Ca stability.

How much lime do you add to the milk jug? Enough for that one gallon or enough for all of your makeup water?

In other words, if you have a 20 gallon resevoir, do you add 20 teaspoons to your milk jug and let it settle or do you let it settle 20 times?

[PatMayo]

I beleive a full strength solution is 2 teaspoons to a gallon of water. If you have 20 gallons of water you would add 40 teaspoons. You really can't overdose because what will not disolve in the water will settle on the bottom of the container. I dripped limewater and mixed up a 40 gallon bucket all at once. I just added 2 containers of the Mrs. wages and then mixed it up. After you let it settle for 24 hours you drip the clear liquid into the tank.

I hope that makes a little more sense for you.

Regards,

Pat

[ramullinax]

I've got a 5 gallon salt water bucket as my auto top off resevoir. There's a powerhead inside the bucket to keep the water moving. I'm unable to take the bucket out because the refugium is in the way. So, when I'm adding my makeup water, I should add the pickling lime to the original jug that I use to transport water, let it settle and then add it to the resevoir. Sound good?

[ramullinax]

Also, I don't use a drip system. I let the auto top-off add the lime water as water evaporates. Will it cause a shock to the system having it added in a more rapid manner?

[bertoni]

Limewater shouldn't be aerated. Aeration will cause precipitation of calcium carbonate. So mix briefly, let settle, and then use.

Large additions of limewater at a time can spike the tank's pH and cause various problems. I dose mine with a peristalitic pump for that reason.

[ramullinax]

Ok, I'll turn the powerhead off in my resevoir.

What would be considered a large addition of lime water?

[J. Montgomery]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10052884#post10052884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ramullinax
Ok, I'll turn the powerhead off in my resevoir.

What would be considered a large addition of lime water?
When I add limewater to my tank, it disperses in a milky white cloud. I'd think that if you can see where its being added, then you can visually tell if it's being added too quickly b/c you'll get cloudy water. Its the rate that limewater is added is more important than how much.

[bertoni]

My peristaltic pump delivers a drop at a time, which has definite advantages.

[ramullinax]

Can you give me a link to your peristaltic pump bertoni?

[ramullinax]

When I add limewater to my tank, it disperses in a milky white cloud. I'd think that if you can see where its being added, then you can visually tell if it's being added too quickly b/c you'll get cloudy water. Its the rate that limewater is added is more important than how much.

Since I've been adding limewater to my tank through my auto top-off I haven't seen any cloudy water in the tank.

[bertoni]

I use a Cole-Parmer MasterFlex pump that I got used. I'm not sure of the exact model.

[IslandCrow]

You can buy peristaltic pumps like the Litermeter or Reef Doser at most online aquarium stores. I know Marine Depot has them. If you can get one used or from a medical supply store, though, you can probably save yourself a lot of money. I'm not proud of how much I paid for mine, especially since I'm not all that impressed with it. It's the Aqua Medic Reef Doser if you're curious. Not a bad doser, really, but I expected more for what I paid.

[bertoni]

I think ChampionLighting.com also sells some.

[vtrieu88]

I'm thinking of adding lime water into my top off water, but am not getting a full understanding of this. Please help clarify. I'm currently dosing ESV 2 parts. Should I start with full (2 tsp/g) or half (1 tsp/g) strength? Thanks!

[ramullinax]

I'm currently dosing at 1 tsp per gallon and have been so for a week now. I may up it to 2 tsp/gallon after doing some testing of the water.

[rick s]

vtrieu88,

Here is an article that should help explain limewater.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

Depending on your tank's demand, you could replace the 2 part with limewater, or use both.

[vtrieu88]

Hey Rick! Greatly appreciated for the article. Cheers.

[PatMayo]

I actually use Randy's 2 part and I use a dosing pump. The same solution as Jonathan but at much less expense. It work's well for me.

I used to use limewater but went back to the 2 part.

Regards,

Pat

[mikecc]

Seems like nights when I drip my limewater my skimmercup fills up. (2tsp/gal ro/di water, mixed in bucket with power head for 8 hrs, settle out for 8hrs, then dripped in)

[ramullinax]

Do you think you're skimming precipitate?

[mikecc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10082062#post10082062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ramullinax
Do you think you're skimming precipitate?

I dunno, you would think it would settle out in 8 hours. The bucket does not get disturbed at all once the powerhead gets shut off. The end of the hose is 1/2 inch off bottom. I've noticed this last few times I add limewater. I have a HOT Prism. Seems to do all right otherwise. I add 5 Gal of limewater every week, as top off. Last time I added it, I turned my skimmer off for several days. I had the skimmer running for a few days pror to adding limewater this time, and my skimmer still filled. Making any sense?

[rick s]

Mikecc,

Are you adding any other supplements other than the limewater?

[mikecc]

Are you adding any other supplements other than the limewater?

Nope, that is it.

[mikecc]

I'm just wondering if anyone else notices an increase in skimmate while dosing limewater?

[bertoni]

I haven't heard of any reports along that line, but skimming is not well understood, in my opinion.

[madcowz]

I use Mrs. Wages in my topoff water with great results. My tank is tiny compared to most here (30G Cube) but I do have a lot of evaporation. I am running a JBJ ATO with an Aqualifter pump. I mix 3tbsp in a 5 gallon bucket of RO/DI water, let it settle and drop the hose in about 2" from the bottom. To control pH I add 90ml of distilled vinegar. My pH stays around 8.1 - 8.2 monitored with a Pinpoint. My Calc. stays steady at 430ppm and my Alk at 9dKH both with Salifert. I have been been dosing this way for 2 months now and my water is crystal clear and my corals are thriving. It couldn't get any easier.

[samsfishnchips]

also use Mrs. Wages with very good results,

oh and if someone needs some, go to wal mart, if you can't find it, ask a manager he/she can order it

thats what I did, and bough a case :D

sam

[ramullinax]

So is everyone dosing 2tsp per gallon?

After letting the solution settle in the container, how do you transfer the water into the auto-top off resevoir without transferring the settled precipitate?

[mikecc]

I am using Mrs Wages

[bertoni]

I use the lime mixing container for the pump input. I just tie the hose I use for pumping the lime onto an acrylic stick to elevate the input an inch or so above the bottom of the mixing container.

[vanceny]

I just started dosing lime for about 3 weeks. The corals seem to be growing faster then when when I dosed 2 part. I've been using it with my top off water with an aqualifter. The problem that I've been having is high pH, it ranges from 8.4 to 8.6. Since the warm weather started I added a fan which increased my evaporation, when I tested pH today it was at 8.8. I've had to add vinegar to the sump to get the pH down in the past.

I've read the articles regarding high pH and from what I understand I can add vinegar to my limewater resevoir. I've added about 45ml per gallon of water but it didnt seem to have an effect an immediate effect on the pH of the limewater. I do have extra kalk sitting on the bottom of the resevoir, could the addition of vinegar be ofset by that extra kalk?

Should I continue to add vinegar till I see the pH drop in the resevoir and at what pH should I stop adding vinegar?

More info, there is no cloudiness when the limewater is added to the sump.

Ca = 420
Alk = 8.8

I think it might be the aqualifter adding too much to quickly but I cant get a litemeter at the moment. Is there a way to adjust the flow on the aqualifter?

Thanks for any advise.

[bertoni]

I think 45ml is as much as I'd add. Limewater is going to have a high pH. More vinegar might start causing excessive bacterial blooms.

I don't know anything about that pump, sorry!

[vanceny]

When adding vinegar does it significantly lower the pH of the limewater?

I also added an air pump last night to the sump. Hopefully that will also have an effect.

[bertoni]

I haven't done the measurement on the effect of vinegar. More aeration is likely more effective, though.

[vanceny]

I just checked the pH and its down to 8.0 after lights out. I think a combination of the aeration and vinegar did the trick. I'll have to check out what happens when I mix my next batch without the vinegar. Hopefully the aeration will be enough.

[mikecc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10082062#post10082062 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ramullinax
Do you think you're skimming precipitate?


Possibility:

The calcium rich water combines (binds) and exports phosphate a little better?

[bertoni]

I don't see why a bit of added calcium should help with skimming, although it's possible that calcium phosphate is being formed. The higher pH might encourage that. I don't know of any data on the subject.

[garyw68]

I have been thinking about using limewater. What is the advantage from using dowflakes, magflakes, and baking soda. That is what I am using and my tank is doing ok. my cal is 440, mag 1350, and alk 9.9. whould it be better to use limewater?

[garyw68]

Does the limewater keep the parameters at a more constant level? Can you overdose with limewater?

[ramullinax]

You can most certainly overdose with limewater. Limewater is very basic with a PH over 12. If you had too much at a time you'll drive your ph way up and can kill the tank. I've been adding 1 tsp per gallon of makeup water to my auto top-off. I'm upping the dosage to two tsp per gallon of make-up water now.

[garyw68]

I dont have a auto top-off. I just put ro/di water in my sump/ruge when it gets low. can I dose that way?

[mikecc]

I roll 8tsb in 4 gal RO/DI water in a 5 gal bucket. let it settle, then drip it in with tubing and hemostats. I add at night, usually mostly in by morning. Once a week, *** 4 gal top off, so I let the water level drop so I got 'nuff room.

[mikecc]

lol Too many esses on my "as"

[SJimmyH]

I use Mrs. Wages. It is theoritically impossible for any CaOH mixture to have disolved phosphate. CaOH causes it to precipitate. If you read PO4, then you had it in the water you used to make the kalk up and it precipitated and you didn't wait long enough for it to settle (test kits WILL pick up solid Phosphates too).

Actually, Mrs. Wages is most likely a better grade than you may find in a pet store since Pickling Lime has to meet food standards and the pet store products only have to meet their own set of standards (could be better or worse if the manufacturer so chooses).

I am in GA and I found Mrs. Wages at Harvees grocery. Any old fashioned grocer or farmers market will most likely carry it. Not sure if you have a Harvees around you in GA.

[SJimmyH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10098329#post10098329 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
I haven't done the measurement on the effect of vinegar. More aeration is likely more effective, though.

Just dont add as much Kalk to your water to begin with. Aeration is a waste of money since you are effectively doing the same thing only adding less means you keep more to use later while aeration takes the excess and makes CaCO3 out of it to precipitate at the bottom of your container and eventually get thrown out.

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10114469#post10114469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SJimmyH
Actually, Mrs. Wages is most likely a better grade than you may find in a pet store since Pickling Lime has to meet food standards and the pet store products only have to meet their own set of standards (could be better or worse if the manufacturer so chooses).

I'll have to disagree with you again, Jimmy.

Mrs Wages, although food grade, does contain impurities. You see it in the bottom of the container after the lime settles. These impurities are not a concern as long as they are not allowed to enter the tank. So one should not mix the container once it has settled.

A product like Seachems Reef Kalkwasser contains no impurities. I never have any settling in the bottom of the container. Pure calcium hydroxide.

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10114189#post10114189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by garyw68
I dont have a auto top-off. I just put ro/di water in my sump/ruge when it gets low. can I dose that way?

Well it's not recommended, but I do it. I just make sure I don't affect a rise in pH of more than .2 units when I dump it in. 1 tsp in a gallon of ro/di does it for my 72 gal. :)

[bertoni]

Aeration in the tank will not reduce the calcium or alkalinity levels. It can help introduce more CO2 into the tank, thus reducing the pH.

[garyw68]

Hey billybeau....do you use straight limewater for top-off? I just made my first batch of limewater. Found the pickling lime at Wal-Mart for a little over two bucks. I put five tsp in a five gallon jug with ro/di. I was thinking of putting a cup a day with my top-off water and check my params...then adjust accordingly.

[Billybeau1]

gary, yes, I mix my limewater at 1 tsp per gallon and dose topoff about a gallon per day. I never allow ph to raise more than .2 during the topoff.

I usually dump half the gallon in and the other half in about 15 min.

Works fine for me. :)

With a tank your size, you can likely dose more than that at one time. It helps if you have a pH monitor so you can watch how high the level goes up. :)

[garyw68]

How do you not let your ph raise more than .2?

[mikecc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10082002#post10082002 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mikecc
Seems like nights when I drip my limewater my skimmercup fills up. (2tsp/gal ro/di water, mixed in bucket with power head for 8 hrs, settle out for 8hrs, then dripped in)

from http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php#10

One mechanism for phosphate reduction in reef aquaria may simply be the precipitation of calcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2. The water in many reef aquaria is supersaturated with respect to this material, as its equilibrium saturation concentration in normal seawater is only 0.002 ppm phosphate. As with CaCO3, the precipitation of Ca3(PO4)2 in seawater may be limited more by kinetic factors than by equilibrium factors, so it is impossible to say how much will precipitate under reef aquarium conditions (without, of course, somehow determining it experimentally). This precipitation may be especially likely where calcium and high pH additives (such as limewater) enter the aquarium water. The locally high pH converts much of the HPO4-- to PO4---. Combined with the locally high calcium level (also from the limewater), the locally high PO4--- level may push the supersaturation of Ca3(PO4)2 to unstable levels, causing precipitation. If these calcium phosphate crystals are formed in the water column (e.g., if they form at the local area where limewater hits the aquarium water), then they may become coated with organics and be skimmed out of the aquarium.

[Billybeau1]

It just doesn't.

I have a 72 gallon with sump. At 1 tsp per gallon, my pH raises just under .2 after the addition.

Again, I dose 1/2 first and the rest about 15 min later. Doesn't seem to bother my fish at all and no cloudiness.

[garyw68]

thanks billy for all your help.

[Billybeau1]

No problem gary :thumbsup:

[garyw68]

ok...i just added my first dose of limewater. I checked the params before which was ph-8.2, calc 425 was and alk - 9.7. I poured in 1/2 gallon...waited for 20 minutes then added the other half. Readings were ph - 8.3, calc 430 and alk - 10. all test were done with salifert test kits. I think i will stick with this method vise the baking soda and dowflakes and see how it goes.

[Billybeau1]

Looks good. :thumbsup: