Bloated SH

[sloshesv]

I have 2 female kudas aboout a year and a half old. One has not eaten for 5 days now, and in the last 2 days her belly has taken on a bloated look. Her sister looks fine and eats normally. I don't have the water paramters or pics right now, but I do a LOT of water changes. I also don't have a hospital tank. Any ideas? TIA

[pledosophy]

Is she having trouble swimming? Floating to the top, not going where she intends?

5 days is normally the amount of time when one would consider tube feeding.

[sloshesv]

She's swimming fine. I'm going to have to research tube feeding, I'm totally unfamiliar with that. BTW, her sister still shows no signs of any problems.

[ann83]

Okay, if she is still behaving okay after 9 days of not eating, I am beginnning to suspect she has another source of food. Still definately research tube feeding, as you are about 5 days overdue. There are specific instructions on tube feeding on seahorse.org, either in the library or pinned in one of the forums. Can you get us a picture and your water parameters? Pic especially. Also, how long have you had them?

[ann83]

Oh, have you tried live foods? Like small ghost shrimp or live mysis? I would try that first before you attempt tube feeding. Here are the instructions http://www.seahorse.org/library/articles/TubeFeed.pdf

[sloshesv]

I've had them for 14 months, so I'm guessing they're around a year and a half old. I've tried ghost shrimp, which they usually get once a week and love, but she's not interested. I'll take a picture tonight. I also check the water, but I keep their tank in tip top shape. It's hard to imagine tube feeding a SH.

[ann83]

The reason you have to resort to tube feeding is because seahorses have a simple digestive system and they cannot go very long without food or their digestive system shuts down. At that point, even if they do resume eating, they cannot properly digest the food and they starve anyway. 4 days without eating is usually the point when people being tube feeding.

[sloshesv]

Ay yi yi! I love this seahorse, so I'm not going to tube feed her. She's still alive, I'm having trouble downloading the pic.

[ann83]

Wait, what? You love it so you aren't going to tube feed it? Did I explain wrong? If you do NOT tube feed, and she goes without eating too long, her digestive system will shut down, and she won't be able to survive even if she does begin eating again. If you DO tube feed, you keep the digestive system going, and she has the chance to live.

[sloshesv]

It sounds like her digestive system has already shut down. I would feel like I'm torturing her rather than saving her life. She's still interacting with her sister. I don't want her last days to be filled with this trauma.

[ann83]

Okay, can you get us a picture or let us know about any other symptoms? You are putting the other seahorse at risk by leaving them together, so maybe we can at least diagnose what the problem is so that the other one has a chance. Also, what are your tank parameters (temp, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate)?

[sloshesv]

I have time tonight, I'll get the info. BTW, thank you very much, this has been painful.

[sloshesv]

I just got the call from home. Sweets dreams, Galaxy. Thanks again for your help.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5822/img1674ih6.jpg

[sloshesv]

Okay, don't trust your nine year old when it comes to determining what's dead and what's not. The SH in question was alive and in the exact same condition when I got home. She's still swimming fine. I fed some beautiful little salty ghost shrimp last night but she wasn't interested. her sister still shows no symptoms and chowed down on the shrimp. Nitrates and nitrites were nothing, I don't have an ammonia tester. Ph 7.7-7.9, the tank goes from 72.2 degrees to 74.7. Man, I've been through the emotional wringer here.

[sloshesv]

Oh yeah, the home computer is f'ed up, so I can load any pics.

[JennyL]

Your water perams are way off. You need to start slowly bringing your PH up to above 8.0, preferably 8.2. A low PH will have bad affects on your horses and can deffinately affect appetite, among other things.

You really must also get an ammonia test immediately. When things go wrong in a tank, the very first thing to do is test all water perams. These results will tell you a lot and can lead you in determining what the problem is .

The main tests that should be done at least weekly are: Ammonia,PH,nitrite,nitrate,sg. Tank temps should be monitored all the time and temps should be kept as stable as possible.

[ann83]

Glad to hear she's still alive.
I agree with Jenny. I'd be willing to bet that the pH is the culprit. Low pH has been known to cause seahorses to stop eating. It is also something that affects each individual differently, which would explain why you are only seeing symptoms in one horse at the moment (although if it isn't fixed, expect to see the other SH stop eating too). Get a marine buffer to bring up the pH (dissolve before you add to the aquarium), and begin adding some to your topoff water and new saltwater. I like Seachem's Marine Buffer.
I would also like to see the ammonia reading. Especially with all of these other problems, and the fact that ammonia readings can affect pH (I think). So, while you're out getting the buffer, pick up a saltwater ammonia test kit (preferably liquid). The presence of ammonia can make things much worse.
Also, can you check your specific gravity/salinity? With the pH being low, the sg could be another issue.
Your temperature looks good. While they are stressed, it'd be better to keep the temp around 72 and not let it rise above 74. Even so, its good to hear you are keeping the temp down.

[sloshesv]

Way off? I think that comment is way off. I add buffer to my SH tank and my reef tank, but can never seem to get it over 8. Yet my corals, fish and inverts seem to thrive. From reading lots of threads on the main forum, I'm not concerned with that. I DO monitor the temp at all times. The extremely expensive cooler I use has some variation before it kicks in. I use the temp settings I was told by seahorsesource for kudas. I'll get an ammonia test kit just so I don't have that hanging over my head, but again I do lots of water changes and keep it pristine. And again, this SH had been perfectly healthy for over a year under the exact same conditions and her tankmate appears perfectly healthy. I don't think this has anything at all to do with water and/or tank conditions, but I do appreciate your input( except for the "way off" comment).

[JennyL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10050468#post10050468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sloshesv
Way off? I think that comment is way off. I add buffer to my SH tank and my reef tank, but can never seem to get it over 8. Yet my corals, fish and inverts seem to thrive. From reading lots of threads on the main forum, I'm not concerned with that. I DO monitor the temp at all times. The extremely expensive cooler I use has some variation before it kicks in. I use the temp settings I was told by seahorsesource for kudas. I'll get an ammonia test kit just so I don't have that hanging over my head, but again I do lots of water changes and keep it pristine. And again, this SH had been perfectly healthy for over a year under the exact same conditions and her tankmate appears perfectly healthy. I don't think this has anything at all to do with water and/or tank conditions, but I do appreciate your input( except for the "way off" comment).

Well, please excuse me. I was under the impression you were asking for help.
I will bow out of your thread and not try to help you anymore.

[ann83]

I agree that your temps are good. I was just suggesting keeping it a bit lower when they are stressed to reduce the chance of disease. Its pretty common to recommend slightly lower temps in stress situations.
I really do believe though that the pH could be an issue. A LOT of people have had their SH stop eating with a low pH. It can't hurt to try to raise it. Even rasing .1 could make a big difference in her appetite and it won't hurt to try. If you can get it up to 8.0, that is wonderful. Like I said, pH affects every SH differently, and can take a while to have an affect, so that could be why the other SH still has an appetite. Overall though, I think conditions sound good. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were poorly maintaining your tank. Get those ammonia readings though, just in case. You could have a dead snail or some dead bristle worms in the rocks or something.

[ann83]

Also, and I should have asked from the get go, have you had an increase in your copepod population recently? Is she spending a lot of time hunting in the live rock?

[sloshesv]

It looks like she's hunting in the LR , but I haven't noticed any increase in pods or heard her snick. She's always loved the ghost shrimp, so I still don't think she's eating. I don't know if she's stressed, but I'm beat up. I'll stop at the LFS and get a ammonia test kit on the way home.

[NONNA58]

how is your horse?

[sloshesv]

Still alive, so she has to be eating something, right? Other than not eating the mysis or ghost shrimp she's acting perfectly normal. Weird

[sloshesv]

She's really BIG today. I swear to God I'm going to get you people a pic soon.

[sloshesv]

2 weeks in, still alive.

[NONNA58]

Mine survived on pods for well over two months but eventually died.

[jojon60]

Are her sides shrunken in at all. If she hasn't eaten anything in all this time she would be dead. Do you use a feeding dish to monitor how much each horse gets or do you free feed.

If she looks bloated she could be gravid. It would really help to have pictures to try and figure out whats going on with her.

Also you might want to call Dan @ seahorsesource and see what he says. He will gladly help with any questions you have. What meds do ou have on hand.

[sloshesv]

She doesn't look shrunken anywhere and her belly bloating goes up and down through the day. I need to look up 'gravid". I have no meds.

[sloshesv]

WTH? How can a female SH be gravid?

[JennyL]

Gravid means she is full of eggs.

[ann83]

Even though the male gives birth, the female still supplies the eggs and the male still supplies the sperm, the fry are just carried in the father instead of the mother.

[sloshesv]

That's a lot of eggs, if true. A lot

[ann83]

Do you have a picture yet?
Is she still swimming okay or is she sinking?

[sloshesv]

No, I'm sorry. Our home computer is still f'd up. She swims just fine. SH's don't ever get a taste for BW's, do they? She spends a lot of time looking at the live rock.

[ann83]

She's looking at the live rock for copepods and amphipods, not for bristleworms. In fact, if she is spending a lot of time looking at the LR, she is probably prefering to eat pods instead of whatever you are feeding her. And if she's not skinny, then its okay.

[sloshesv]

maybe, it just doesn't seem like there's anywhere near enough pods to keep her alive. Okay, I won't post again unless she dies or until I have a picture.

[David123]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10050468#post10050468 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sloshesv
Way off? I think that comment is way off. I add buffer to my SH tank and my reef tank, but can never seem to get it over 8. Yet my corals, fish and inverts seem to thrive. From reading lots of threads on the main forum, I'm not concerned with that. I DO monitor the temp at all times. The extremely expensive cooler I use has some variation before it kicks in. I use the temp settings I was told by seahorsesource for kudas. I'll get an ammonia test kit just so I don't have that hanging over my head, but again I do lots of water changes and keep it pristine. And again, this SH had been perfectly healthy for over a year under the exact same conditions and her tankmate appears perfectly healthy. I don't think this has anything at all to do with water and/or tank conditions, but I do appreciate your input( except for the "way off" comment).

Really excellent way to get help.

I think you pH is way off too, take it or leave it, you asked, people reply.

I actually think she is in the family way.

[sloshesv]

Your input has been noted David. I'm quite confident my pH is absolutely fine. As far as the last comment, do you have any SH experience at all?

[ann83]

Sloshev, David has plenty of SH experience, both observing in the wild and captive breeding. Take his advice if he'll give it. I think its a great thing that he's over here on ReefCentral now too. As far as your female being in a family way, why would that indicate him not having seahorse experience? What he means is he thinks she is gravid, which has been said before. Being full of eggs can make a female look fat or bloated.

Also, I'm not confident your pH is perfectly fine either. It ought to be higher. Seahorses aren't very tolerant of lower pH.

[sloshesv]

It was his number of posts that made me question his opinion. I can't get that pH any higher with out constantly adding buffer, and I mean constantly. Their water is not only fine, it's superb.
Apparently I'm not very good at taking advice. Thank you all for your input and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Carry on.

[sloshesv]

Okay, I do have one more question, maybe two. These were sexually mature SH's when I got them. If she is gravid, why haven't I seen either her or her sister get this way for the first year? Is there an obstruction to releasing these unfertilized eggs that's causing this?

[sloshesv]

How long typically does this gravid conditon last? Do female SH's release unfertilized eggs or does their body resorb them?
BTW, I've read through this thread again and I agree that I have not handled the pH stuff very well. I spend so much effort in trying to maintain their water that I have become touchy about it. I will not take others opinions personally in the future. I swear. I really mean it.

[ann83]

Female SH can release unfertilized eggs, and I think they also can reabsorb them. If you have a good cleanup crew, you may never see the released eggs before they are eaten. There is talk that female SH can become egg bound, although I think it is extremely rare, and I cannot find a thread with an actual case anywhere. If she is stressed, she may be holding the eggs longer than usual, which could be why she seems more bloated than usual.
The key questions with a bloated seahorse are:
Is she floating, or bouncing when she swims, or having other bouancy issues? (indicates internal gbd)
Is she sinking, or having difficulty swimming or having difficulty rising in the water column? (indicates edema)
However, I believe you have already said that she is not having any of these problems, so you'll just have to keep an eye on her. If she does begin having one of these problems, then there are treatments for it.

[David123]

I was the second commercial seahorse breeder in Australia, and I believe the third in the world. I am a commercial aquaculturist and I also own syng org.

You ask why this condition has never happened before, to answer this I need some info. Have you a male in the tank, if so, was he young, and now mature, have you added a male.

Is it possible that you may not have seen her like this before, just maybe, she has been like this, ie, larger than normal and you have not spotted it as she has been able to release her unwanted aggs with little or no drama, so, you have missed it.

Regarding pH, if you have a low pH and have to consistantly add buffer to maintain this, something is wrong, do you have something that is using the calcium, ie, hard corals, maybe a lot of crabs or bivalves.

Just maybe your meter may also be a bit out, have you had your water independantly tested.

[sloshesv]

No swimming problems whatsoever and just 2 females from day 1. I spend a lot of time with them, so I would have noticed this before. Ca is consistently around 400 and kH 10-12.
The bloating coincided with her not eating the thawed mysis or live ghost shrimp.
I use a cheap color guide to check pH. I'm going to look into something that may be more accurate.

[David123]

If you have someone near who has tanks and a test kit, take some water to them and do a test together, you with your water and test strips, them with your water and their test stuff, and compare results.

[sloshesv]

Guess what I have? A picture! She wouldn't give me a good straight ahead picture, but I think the directly behind shot illustrates the bloating well.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8798/img1950bu7.jpg

Here's a sideways shot that doesn't really show the bloating.

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6277/img1947ea2.jpg

[ann83]

Oh dear, that bloating is awefully high up her body to be just eggs. She really isn't floating, bouncing, sinking, or having trouble rising up from the bottom or from her favorite hitch? Thats bizarre. Where did you say you bought her again?

Put her in a bare bottom hospital tank and monitor her feeding and pooing. Also, do me a favor and post this picture, the history, and your tank params in the diseases and treatment forum on seahorse.org. A few extra set of eyes and extra experiences may help.

[sloshesv]

She's from seahorsesource. I don't have a hospital tank. She's swims absolutley fine. I'll try to get to sh.org later today.

[ann83]

You can use a bucket or a 10 gallon from walmart with an airline for a hospital tank. Have you contacted Dan (Seahorse Source)? He'd probably be more than willing to give you advice.

[sloshesv]

Okay, I'll get a bucket and call Dan. Thanks again for all the help ann.

[ann83]

Oh, and make sure the bucket has never had any chemicals or anything in it but water, and rinse it really thoroughly.

[David123]

Any thing happening

[sloshesv]

I haven't called Dan yet, it was a long, tough week. I also put Galaxy back in with her sister, she looked so sad in that bucket. No change in status.

[jojon60]

Do you have any diamox and neomycin.
The bloating is not normal and could be caused by a couple different things, I believe if you leave her untreated she will die.

Internal Gas Bubble Disease (IGBD) and fluid retention, Are the two main causes.
IGBD is a build up of gas in the tissues which usually cause buoyancy issues.
Fluid retention or edema resulting from kidney failure.
This is from the disease forum on the org.

How is she eating now. Have you seen her poos, what do they look like. If they are white and stringy than she is not eating enough.

[sloshesv]

I haven't seen any abnormal looking poos floating around. I don't know what she's eating, but this has been going on for a while now and her behavior appears perfectly normal. I think we're just going to keep on keeping on.

[sloshesv]

pH up to 8.2, I've slowly added a boatload of buffer.

[panmanmatt]

Keep a close eye on your Alk. Most Ph buffers will also raise your Alk and that could lead to a tank crash if it gets too high.

[sloshesv]

Got it

[sloshesv]

She ate a mysis last night! I'm ready for a big serving of crow if this pH thing turns her around.

[David123]

Thats wonderful news, well done.

[sloshesv]

Eating normally, thank you everybody. Her belly is still big but maybe with time it will return to form. I let my pride get in the way of diagnosing the problem and as stated before I'm terribly sorry.