emergency help, first dying fish - sailfin tang

[ilovetrains]

I introduced a sailfin and a hippo tang on Wednesday night. Both have looked wonderful. Water parameters as checked by LFS were perfect (I do not have a test kit at home.) Salinity has stayed right at 1.023. I use only RO/DI water, and have a UV sterlizer.

The sailfin tonight is just floating. He is breathing, but his fins are not moving at all. He was eating, swimming and looked fine just an hour ago.

LFS is closed for the night.

I am going to remove him from the display and place him in a bucket with RO/DI water. I will start him with display salinity and gradually reduce it to 1.009.

Any other suggestions?

Can a fish have a stroke??

[Freed]

Um, you're doing this all backwards. QT and THEN main display.

[ilovetrains]

Petco was still open, so I went to get a water test. I also bought a test kit.

They showed amonia as more than 0, but less than 50, ph 8.4, all other tests "good"

I just tested:
ammonia between .25 and .50
no3 - 0
no2 - 0
hardness - 250
alkanity - 180
ph 8.4

[bgiles11]

Okay two things. 1st, how long has this tank been up and running? Very rarely does a mature tank have amonia. maybe some nitrates. However if you increased a bio load heavily then it is possible. or if you were over feeding. I heard that here in PA they are lobbying against Petco for ALLEDGEDLY using cyanide to catch fish. I do not know this to be true, just heard! Always try to get livestock from a mom and pop type LFS. Dry goods will usually be cheaper at chain stores. Mom and Pop LFS usually quarentine, or pay for fish already quarentined.

[Freed]

So you come to my store and I tell you all the fish came from someone that QT'd them. I jack the price up several dollars for this. You are going to trust that the fish you buy have been properly QT'd by someone because someone says so? You take the fish home and just throw them in your tank with no worries now right?

[ilovetrains]

Tank has been up and running since April 6th. I have never had either nitrates or ammonia in a water test. All water tests done at a variety of local fish stores. One LFS in particular is very "high end." The sailfin and a hippo came from that store on Wednesday night (if I said Tuesday above, was confused.)

I also added three bangai cardinals on Tuesday night. Water tests done Tuesday and Wednesday, both very good.

[tropicalfishguy]

I assume this is the first group of fish in your tank? Its been up since Apr6, so 6-7 weeks, basically your tank is going through a cycle, since you already have the fish (a little early to add tangs IMO) I would start with a water change to reduce the ammonia. Once your tank is up and running the ammonia should always be 0. Some fish can take ammonia better than others, and tangs usually aren't one of them. How are your cardinals? Are they acting normally?

[bgiles11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10017065#post10017065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
So you come to my store and I tell you all the fish came from someone that QT'd them. I jack the price up several dollars for this. You are going to trust that the fish you buy have been properly QT'd by someone because someone says so? You take the fish home and just throw them in your tank with no worries now right? No one said that. However if you use the same LFS for 6 years and you have not had a problem. Then why not trust them? If they have copper in all their tanks, (That you see them putting in yourself) then why not believe them. Petco's, jack's, petsmart, those type of LFS I would not trust. But if you have a LFS that tells you hey, wait a week for this fish, so on and so forth. Amazing! Try to help someone else out and someone has to chime in with thier opinnion about a LFS that they don't know. WOW

[PatMayo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10017076#post10017076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ilovetrains
Tank has been up and running since April 6th. I have never had either nitrates or ammonia in a water test. All water tests done at a variety of local fish stores. One LFS in particular is very "high end." The sailfin and a hippo came from that store on Wednesday night (if I said Tuesday above, was confused.)

I also added three bangai cardinals on Tuesday night. Water tests done Tuesday and Wednesday, both very good.

My guess is too many fish too quickly in a tank that was not ready for that many fish.
I would like to ask did you use live rock and was it cured or fresh from the sea?
Without good test kits, I recommend Salifert, the real situation with the water may not be known. Typically the salt content should equal natural sea water. 1.026 or so.

Those fish need lots and lots of room and good water conditions. All fish should be quarantined before introduction to the main tank. It will save headaches in the future.

You may want to do some water changes and take remaining healthy fish back to the store until the water situation is sorted out.

Regards,

Pat

[seatown76]

How big is your tank?

[snappedbigfoot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10017498#post10017498 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bgiles11
No one said that. However if you use the same LFS for 6 years and you have not had a problem. Then why not trust them? If they have copper in all their tanks, (That you see them putting in yourself) then why not believe them. Petco's, jack's, petsmart, those type of LFS I would not trust. But if you have a LFS that tells you hey, wait a week for this fish, so on and so forth. Amazing! Try to help someone else out and someone has to chime in with thier opinnion about a LFS that they don't know. WOW

i have work'd at petsmart for over year and quit. The people in that store have no d@@@ idea what direction up is. One out of the 8 people in the petcare department: i was the only one who new anything besides what they were taught in the books. So many fish died there, infested with popeye, baterial infections, and ich. All they let you treat them with is quick cure and anti bacterial pills, didn't work. The place was so sad, customers knew i was the only one who could help there. They would request for my work schedule, I started to send my customers to my favorte LFS. Dont trust Petsmart, Petco the only thing there good for is dry goods, there most likely cheeper. Stay away from there advice and there fish no good.

[Freed]

Where did I give an opinion about any LFS? You must be reading something into my post that isn't even there. Please reread what I posted. Telling someone to trust the word of an LFS and not QT is NOT helping anyone out at all.

[ilovetrains]

I started the tank with all live rock and live sand. LFS stated there really was no cycle. I had one diatom bloom, followed by a green algea bloom, both of which resolved. Every water test since I started has been very good.

Test this morning (after 15 gallon water change last night)

ammonia .25 (down slightly)
no other change

BTW - I appreciate any helpful suggestions. This is not the first round of fish in the tank. There are 6 assorted damsels, one coral beauty, one fax face, lawnmower blenny and some sand critters.

All fish look to be very good, no one is showing any signs of distress. However, I have a blue carpet anenome that does not look happy. He did not like my last water change. I am not sure how I did it, but I made the salinty go up to 1.033. When I realized this I added water, but too much dropping salinty to 1.019. I since got it to 1.023 and it has held steady, and the anenome has begun to look much better. I am not sure if those two things are related.

[Shagsbeard]

Too much too fast. One fish a month is too fast. 5 fish in a week is asking for trouble.

[jer77]

What type of test kit are you using? Did you buy one yet? The test strips are crap, don't use them or rely on them like Petco. Get Saliert tests. If you can't tell if its 0 or .50 then you have a problem.

Most likely you added too many fish to a new tank. The bioload was increased to quickly for the bacteria population to keep up. Keep doing your water changes and look out for disease, infections, or any physical problems. How is the sailfin doing now? How's the hippo? Try harder to keep you parameters stable to make sure you don't add any more stress to your fish. Don't add any more fish.

About the carpet anemone... Is it eating? Has it buried its 'foot' into the sand or attached it to LR yet? What kind of lighting do you have?

Also you should get into the habit of quarantining all of your fish before you put them into your display. I do happen to believe that some places you can trust that they have properly quarantined their livestock however, but not many places can be trusted so I like to be sure. Even if all the fish are treated with copper it doesn't mean that they won't bring ich or other diseases into your tank. Proper quarantine doesn't mean just use copper and uv sterlizers. Certain time periods must be maintained for the fish to be treated continuously and separated from any other newly imported fish in their own system. And copper alone doesn't necessarily treat all diseases so other medications may need to be implemented.

[HBtank]

I add one fish every few months. 5 fish at once is FAR to much IMO.

One fish at a time, or at most, two small fish.

The way we set up filtration on SW tanks (liverock and sand) demand that we take it slow. Though it can handle a large bioload in the end, it takes time to step it up.

[bgiles11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10018238#post10018238 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
Where did I give an opinion about any LFS? You must be reading something into my post that isn't even there. Please reread what I posted. Telling someone to trust the word of an LFS and not QT is NOT helping anyone out at all.
That is not what I was telling him to do! What i was telling him to do is not to trust petco! If you have a reputable source for your livestock, then you won't have a problem. If you Don't then you should. I have never quarentined any of my fish! However what I do is purchase the fish from the same LfS I have used for 6 years, let it stay in the store for 1-2 weeks. No signs of stress, disease, etc I bring it home. If it dies, before I take it home, either I get my money back, or put it towards another fish. All of his tanks are treated, and heavy UV sterilization is used in both his system and mines. But if anyone does not have the ability to do that then they SHOULD QAURENINE THEIR FISH!

[ilovetrains]

I know the hippo was qaurantine as I saw it there about 4 weeks ago, then bought it and the sailfin Wednesday night. Not sure about the sailfin, but the LFS seems to be very good, they typically have stuff that people on this board say are very hard to find.

I did not intend to add all so quickly, but we had ordered the Bangai's, and it took several weeks for them to come in. Lesson learned.

We don't have a qt tank. We don't buy, and don't intend to buy from petco, etc.

it is the strip test type. I am taking a sample to the good LFS today as soon as they open for another test.

The sailfin did not make it through the night. At first he seemed to get better as he was swimming around the bucket I placed him in. But this morning he had died.

All other fish, including the hippo look very well. They are all eating and accounted for.

[Freed]

Never assume that just because an LFS says they "quarantine" their fish that there aren't numerous other fish going in and out of the same tank/system every few days that you don't know about that are probably carrying all sorts of diseases in and out with them.

[Kengaroo131]

to many to quick causes your reading to come out all wacky, have patients.

[aquarius77]

He has 14 fish in a tank that is 7 weeks old....

"I introduced a sailfin and a hippo tang on Wednesday night."
"I also added three bangai cardinals on Tuesday night."

"This is not the first round of fish in the tank."
"There are 6 assorted damsels, one coral beauty, one fax face, lawnmower blenny and some sand critters."

Thats 14 fish in a brand new tank, you went too fast.
What size is this tank?

I would do a 25 percent water change to start with.

[Lotus99]

Sorry to hear about the tang. I agree, too many fish, too fast. I have quarantined all my fish, which also helps me slow down the stocking. Put the fish in quarantine for three or four weeks, then put them in the display, and get more fish to go in quarantine. The problem is that with larger tanks, each time you add unquarantined fish, you put your existing livestock at risk. The longer this goes on, the more fish you have, the more money the entire livestock is worth, and the more stressful it becomes for you if the new fish introduces a disease to the tank.

The tank needs to settle/balance after each fish you add. The ammonia readings are telling you that the bacteria hasn't caught up with the added bioload. Definitely time to slow down. :)

Hopefully you got some good quality test kits from your LFS.