swmming pool reef [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community

Kentanner11

05/27/2007, 06:45 PM

Wow I was thinking about something like that, sep for I dont have a pool well the neighbors house is up for sale and there Is NO way it is going to sell. If I had a pool/what you should do... is to first make a GIGANTIC batch of LR from concreate you need to soak it for like 2months to get the PH right anyways it costs you 9cents or so per lb and you could sell them for 2$ a lb if you made a pool full you would definately gain some serious $$$ I would say into the thou's. easily! It is just an undertaking! lol Good idea. I would dont know about covering it,, you would keep out mosquitoes but w/o a cover mosquitoe larve would be eaten by the fish!!! Would you use the existing pumps, IMO it depends on what you have, I would use the existing plumbing but scrap the exisitng pumps and filters and make a serious DIY!!! lol GOOD LUCK! you never know you might turn into a home aquarium that people from all over come to see lol! Hey you could charge admission! Anyways sorry for rambling but GOOD Luck! lol

coffeedolphin

05/27/2007, 07:26 PM

I talked to the guys at OC aquatics:
1) need to ask city if ok- they think it should be ok if covered
2) need to build a drain system with elevated tiled and sealed enclosure for flooding- will ask my contractor guestimating 6-10k
3) need plexiglass top- again probably 20-25k for enclosure w/ top
4) need enclosed filtration system w industrial skimmer- they said 4-6k for skimmer and pump
5) they said scaffold w/ diy would work but would take LOTS of help/time and 3 months to stabilize
6) would add 1000 lbs of rock on top of scaffold system
7) they can get truck of water- catalina water at 20cents a gallon to deliver- would take multiple trucks but doable
8) they said exactly what you guys said: expensive- but easily could be used for aquaculture- tey would grow their sps in it and maintain it if i build it...........
i am going to get the contractor here on tue to ask how much for the enclosure- draining-retiling- filtration shed

this_reefer

05/27/2007, 07:55 PM

Man, it will be expensive but it would be great if you are able to do it!!!! It would be nice if you can build something so that you can view it from its side though.

Keep us updated!

crazyguy34834

05/27/2007, 08:31 PM

ya, mabe dig a ditch next to it and a small viewport. probibly wouldn't cost much considering you are turning a POOL INTO A REEF, how cool is that!

Considering how close you are to the ocean, I would try to see if there is any way to install a pipe to a salt water source and put a pump on that bad boy. Try and talk the city into hooking something like that to one of there saltwater sources. Say you will let whoever does research on coral have the advantage of using this as a research resource or if I were you I would let them keep coral in it. You just might get them putting endangered corals in it. so cool and it wouldn't hurt to ask. Contact some researchers and universities and see if they would be interested in helping you out in exchange for use of it for research. It would be cheaper for them to just visit you for classes then it would building there own system.

illal

05/27/2007, 09:08 PM

lmao imagine doing a 10% water change once a month in a 12k gallon tank :hammer:

coffeedolphin

05/27/2007, 10:33 PM

my buddy sugested running multiple fiberoptic hi res camera like the ones used in arthroscopic surgery from differrent view points via cable to a mac based Hi def switcher with output in full HD to largescreen to view the reef- and said also could sebd live lower res feeds online for reaearch etc on coral growth rates- behaviours etc

coffeedolphin

05/27/2007, 10:36 PM

he said that way i dont need full height enclosure- just say 12 inch riser- drain system with plexiglass framed cover over pool- this would save a bundle- and makes more sense than making a building that would really serve no purpose... would have to have vents with fan system in place and ability to clean plexiglass

GT2NV

05/27/2007, 10:58 PM

haha id pay to free-dive in your tank! if this actually happens ill be very impressed, good luck!

Fuegofish777

05/28/2007, 03:55 AM

well, i'l be in your area while im home for summer. I wouldnt mind helpin you out. Cant garauntee (sp?) any specific hours or anything, but I would love to work on a project like that. Im minoring in aquaculture so experience would also be great. I'll also be spending alot of time in costa mesa, so not exactly out of my way. PM me if you could use a hand.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 07:34 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10027692#post10027692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coffeedolphin
he said that way i dont need full height enclosure- just say 12 inch riser- drain system with plexiglass framed cover over pool- this would save a bundle- and makes more sense than making a building that would really serve no purpose... would have to have vents with fan system in place and ability to clean plexiglass

I do not understand the purpose here...

The plexi cover is going to cost a fortune and be hard to maintain. It will be a nuisance danger (people and animals walking on it,etc). It will scratch and will never provide a good viewing situation.

A simple greenhouse would be very easy to build and maintain.

What are the dimensions of the pool?

Is this for a business venture or for personal viewing? If it is a business venture, then the greenhouse will also serve as the work area. If it is for personal viewing... what is the use? Who wants to look down at the top of coral from the edge of a pool?

The "aquaculture" business brings into question even more. Do you really want to sink all of that money into (1) aquaculture tub? A crash, bug, or other nasty outbreak will bring the whole operation to a halt.

How will you harvest your corals from a tank that large? You will need to either dive to get them or build a gantry system and have the corals suspended on scafolds near the waters surface.

Will you have several hours a day to devote to this setup or will you pay a nearly full time person to maintain it?

What kind of water storage facilities will you use to mix and store change water? We are talking thousands of gallons at a time here. How will you arrange to dispose of the change water?

Do you have a loading dock? You will need it to unload the bulk consumables that you will be using.

Have you considered how you will provide balanced alkalinity and calcium dosing?

I am not being rude here, but this appears to be a silly idea perpetuated by people who do not understand what is on the auction block. The city paying for a saltwater pipeline to your house? Not a chance. Digging a ditch beside the pool and installing a window? Not a chance for any reasonable cost. Did you think about the sump pump to keep the ground water out of the ditch?

We can go on and on! There are a hundred reasons why this is a silly idea and honestly not many reasons why it is a good idea unless you want to keep very LARGE fish or sharks.

If honestly have enough money to do something this silly, then you have enough money to fill in the pool and build a proper aquaculture setup with a greenhouse and individual tubs where you can SEE and MAINTAIN the livestock. It would actually be MUCH cheaper.

If this is not a business and just for personal viewing, you could put a greenhouse up and put a few very large glass or acrylic tanks in it for MUCH LESS than the pool conversion. You could build an above ground concrete or similar tank with a very large long viewing panel or panels. You could configure it in a U or similar shape and provide a LOT of viewing area with proper plumbing nad depth.

A local reefer has just built such a facility (aquaculture greenhouse) and is near the 10,000 gallon mark. He has done it for a fraction of what you listed above. Maintenance and upkeep costs will be a fraction of what the "pool" will be.

If you are out to just spend money to prove you can buy what "you want", then by all means cover the swimming pool with plexiglass and fill it with saltwater. Anybody can spend money of they have it. On the other hand, if you want to get enjoyment out of the setup or enter into a business venture, then you need to scrap the swimming pool idea and go about this from a logical and intelligent angle.

don954

05/28/2007, 10:06 AM

If you do this, i would suggest that you incorporate into a business is permissible by city code, and get interns from your local marine college for help. This sounds like a large scale reef similar to many aquariums nowadays and it would be a valuable experience for many students, and provide you with cheap labor... ;)

areze

05/28/2007, 10:15 AM

sounds like a headache to me...

75g is enough work. as much as Id love to have a mammoth tank some day(800g tops) the work would only be worth it if I could REALLY enjoy it.

for aquaculturing a pool is no good IMO, youd be better off with ridiculously cheap basin pools, you can get them for a few hundred bucks with 1000g of shallow water. and then your systems are seperate so you dont lose it all to 1 mistake.

you spend all this money, what happens when this local fish store figures out this isnt a good plan for them and bails? you hiring a fulltime crew to maintain it?

Horace

05/28/2007, 10:23 AM

Like others above, I think it will be a huge waste of money if you dont have a viewing pane..... You wont be able to see anything clearly otherwise. Even looking top down from my tank sucks if there is even the smallest amount of water movement in the tank.

TriniStylez

05/28/2007, 11:31 AM

I grew up with a "reef pond" at my house in the Caribbean and it kind of sucked for viewing...it was only 400G. Looking down at everything gets really boring and annoying after a while unless its fish.

If 400G was not good for viewing, how would a pool look?

Seems like you could do much better with a huge TANK.

TriniStylez

05/28/2007, 11:32 AM

Maybe you could just drain your pool and put a bunch of tanks inside it...

medic29

05/28/2007, 11:56 AM

Talk about majorily bursting one's bubble!!! Maybe some tact next time???

Beaner3

05/28/2007, 12:55 PM

I'm with TriniStylez, thats hilarious. I say if the guy has piles of cash to throw around, let him do what he wants, I personally think I would be snorkeling in that thing every day, better yet, Buy yourself a snuba rig so you have no time constraints on your underwater time. I'm totally subscribing to this thread.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 01:18 PM

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 01:28 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10030397#post10030397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3 I say if the guy has piles of cash to throw around, let him do what he wants.[/B] Or better yet instead of blindly encouraging him to waste his money, why not encourage him to refine the idea so that the logistics are reasonable and the actual goals can be defined and met.

It is very easy for groupies and wannabes to spend other peoples money. Almost every one of the "go for it" posts in this thread is from a very uninformed perspective.

The OP is either totaly full of it and he is playing this thread at for all it is worth...

-OR-

The OP has the disposable income to throw at a big tank project but very obviously has not put a lot of thought into the goals, let alone the logistics.

-OR-

The OP THOUGHT he had the disposable income to do something like this but will soon find out that it may be too much money and too much work.

I would suggest that he (and many of you) take a long trip over to the large tank forum and read about what this volume takes. I would then take a look at Bill Wan's setup and others like it.

Aquarculture and display setups are two different beasts. A tank this large is not a good idea for aquaculture (all your eggs in one basket) and a swimming pool is not good as a display. So both scenarios beg the question, why spend the cash on such a setup when it does not meet the needs of any situation?

stugray

05/28/2007, 01:44 PM

I'm with Bean on this one.

Why spend so much money for something you cannot See?

If you are truly made of money, hate your swimming pool, and still want a "Holy Crap" Reef tank, do the following:

1 - Build the greenhouse around the pool. ( this will ADD to the resale value of the home even in CA ) Put in lots of opening sky lights.

2 - Build a steel structure over the pool that can support a 3000-5000 gallon tank. Install a nice viewing area even with seating & "lounge area". You could open the roof and get a tan while watching your school of Sohal Tangs!!

3 - Install tank, using the pool area underneath as a sump, refugium, workspace. You could even fit a large water change tank in there.

This would make the whole thing easy to view, easy to maintain, and keep the ugly parts of the system out of view.

You also have to consider the dent in the resale value of the property if you try the reef tank thing & need to sell. Pools are hard enough to resell ( at least in colorado ).

HTH

Stu

Beaner3

05/28/2007, 01:52 PM

So both scenarios beg the question, why spend the cash on such a setup when it does not meet the needs of any situation? [/B][/QUOTE]

Because he has the money! The guy is an orthopedic surgeon, in Cali.,... last time I checked, they don't start around 30k a year, I'm sure the feasability of a project of this magnitude has already been debated, and re debated before even thinking about undertaking a build like this. It's California man,....they do things different out there.

I for one "misinformed wannabe groupie" want to see it done. Just to prove nay sayers like you completely wrong Beananimal.

Coffeedolphin,...........Run that thing! But make sure your water is completely stable, Why not try a FOWLR in ther first? See how the fish do and maybe slowly add a frag or 40 here and there. Post a pic of your skimmer!

medic29

05/28/2007, 01:57 PM

That was tactful. Specific. And NOT attacking at someone's idea. I'm not saying the idea was reasonable; sounded like a good idea to me, but I admit, I have no clue if it was reasonable or not. From reading his initial posts, he didn't know if it was possible or not either. Sure there was plenty of encouragement, most likely from those that don't have a clue whether it would be feasible or not, but liked the idea. The tone of the attack could have been done without the attack, such as stugray's comments. Yes, he is the victim to a rude attack. A suggestion, thought, idea he put up wondering if it was possible. Absolutely, no reason to attack the idea like that; it tends to shutdown anyone else from posting their ideas, dreams, or creative energy.

Just my thoughts!!

zeusfc

05/28/2007, 02:00 PM

Bean, I agree this is a pipe dream...
I had a raised pool in the UK... 6000g, 6' walls on 3 sides, I worked out a hundred different ways to do this, but none were feasable! for instance...

plumbing; all the pool pipes were sunk into concrete and would need replacing prior to use due to anti-algae sealants used in the swimming pool industry

heating; pool heaters are predominantly based on brass and copper heat exchangers (or titanium and copper) and as such, a completely new heating method would be needed... solar heating, is simply not controllable enough.

the idea of a saltwater pipe is simply madness! no one in their right mind would use seawater collected from the immediate coast, and to source from further out would simply be financially impractical. a better idea would be a deep bore-hole which could be sunk deep enough to source salt-water... but only if the bore is close enough to the coast, and the area has no agricultural land nearby, to contaminate it!

livestock; exactly where do you think you will be able to source the corals for this display? sure you can buy small and grow, but corals large enough to not look out of place, would take decades to grow.

my advice? enjoy the pool, enjoy your tank, and use the money on some diving/snorkelling holidays!

Beaner3

05/28/2007, 02:02 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10030757#post10030757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
That was tactful. Specific. And NOT attacking at someone's idea. I'm not saying the idea was reasonable; sounded like a good idea to me, but I admit, I have no clue if it was reasonable or not. From reading his initial posts, he didn't know if it was possible or not either. Sure there was plenty of encouragement, most likely from those that don't have a clue whether it would be feasible or not, but liked the idea. The tone of the attack could have been done without the attack, such as stugray's comments. Yes, he is the victim to a rude attack. A suggestion, thought, idea he put up wondering if it was possible. Absolutely, no reason to attack the idea like that; it tends to shutdown anyone else from posting their ideas, dreams, or creative energy.

Just my thoughts!!

Here, Here! Medic. well put.

zeusfc

05/28/2007, 02:11 PM

yes you're right... the purpose of this thread was not "i'm going to do this...look at the pretty pictures..." it was " is it possible to do this?"

simple answer... NO!

next question!

32flavors

05/28/2007, 02:14 PM

I think many of you are being very jugemental (and yes, I know that's a judgement). He's clearly thinking this through and obviously has the money. What he chooses to do with HIS money is, after all, HIS BUSINESS. What a dream to be able to create what we all aspire to in this hobby and be able to go snorkling in it. I work at a reef shop, and we used to service a 2k system, and yep--hopped right in. The only issue was the 6" lion that someone on the outside kept an eye on. Bottom line: this is someone with enough enthusiasm and resources to do it, and most importantly--he's thinking it through. I'm guessing here, but like most people who've contributed to this thread--I am absolutely jealous! The only thing better than watching a beautiful reef tank is, after all, swimming in a natural reef. This is as close as it could get in a home set-up. Wow!! Keep up all your diligent preparation, and someday it'll be a treasure....

stugray

05/28/2007, 02:14 PM

"The tone of the attack could have been done without the attack, such as stugray's comments."

Not sure if you meant that my comments were 'attacking' or an example of how to Not to attack....

Stu

medic29

05/28/2007, 02:18 PM

An example of how not to attack. Personally, I appreciated your comments.

Putawaywet

05/28/2007, 02:23 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10030065#post10030065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
Talk about majorily bursting one's bubble!!! Maybe some tact next time???

It's all fun and good to dream big, heck... we all do it from time to time. But there comes a time when one has to stop hitting the snooze button.

Bean is merely offering some cold hard facts with a bit of reality thrown in. I would have done the same if he hadn't beaten me to the punch. Jumping on the bandwagon is easy, even more so when it's not your time or your money that is at stake. And as cool as some may think a project like this would be some of us think it only fair that a person has a chance to hear from both sides of the fence before they start investing time and energy in a potential project.

Personally, if you're dead set on doing this then take Bean's advice and scrap the pool and go back to the drawing board. Come up with a design that is both cost effective and much better engineered. Trying to work around something that was not designed to do what you want it to do is going to be an unecessary waste of both time and money and you're enjoyment level will wind up being compromised in the end.

Brett

zeusfc

05/28/2007, 02:25 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10030827#post10030827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 32flavors
I think many of you are being very jugemental

The whole point of asking a question to a forum is to get other peoples' opinions! On this one, I really do have strong view based on years of "pipe dreams"! FOURTEEN YEARS of walking past my own pool, trying to work out if it was feasable!

it would be wrong for people such as myself to simply sit back and let the cries of "go for it!" sway this man into making a huge error!

medic29

05/28/2007, 02:45 PM

I can appreciate such comments. For those that have thought it through; already having the dream and realizing doing this will not work. It is more in the delivery of the information. A person can crush someone else's desire and/or imagination. Again, it is the delivery that is in question, not the content. Heck, maybe he does have the money and will realize that he cannot or that it is not feasable to convert the pool into a reef and may decide to tear out the pool and make a large tank that can be viewed from inside the house. If that is what is trying to be conveyed here is that from previous serious thought and consideration someone else has figured it out that it cannot be done, then great. But again, the delivery stunk. I believe a person could have a huge tank this large and have it stocked, etc. It is just a matter of money; an amount I would never have, but....I'm sure it is possible.

Just think a few years ago the same things were said about being able to keep live corals in such a small amount of water...an aquarium. Look at what we can do now!!

Coffeedolphin I appreciate your imagination and enthusiasm. I am interested in what you do decide to do. Maybe it's not converting the swimming pool into a reef tank, maybe it is making a huge tank in the wall of one room. It is just nice to see others that are excited about bringing one of the beautiful areas of our earth into their living areas.

32flavors

05/28/2007, 02:45 PM

Maybe it's a pipe dream for most, but he obviously isn't limited in resources and he's being responsible and researching the undertaking. As long as he can handle the pertinent issues, which he's clearly addressing--I don't see why it is in fact a pipe dream for him.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 04:33 PM

Because he has the money! Because the guy has mon

The guy is an orthopedic surgeon, in Cali.,... last time I checked, they don't start around 30k a year, Nobody said they did. I don't care if the guys bank account is large enough to gain 30K a week in interest.

Just because somebody has money, does not mean that anything they spend it on is a good idea.

I'm sure the feasability of a project of this magnitude has already been debated The man posted here probing for information and talking about other sources he has probed or will probe for information. Shall we all just shut up and cheer the guy on, even if we know that we can help him realize his "dream" in a more manageble way?

It's California man,....they do things different out there. Good grief... shall we elavate stupidity to some grand level because it is "California"? Yes I said stupidity. Probing for ideas and refining them with good information is not stupid. Standing on the street corner a cheering a guy on for no good reason other than because he has money and lives in California is stupid.

I for one "misinformed wannabe groupie" want to see it done. Just to prove nay sayers like you completely wrong Beananimal. And there lies the problem. Your one of those people who thinks all ideas are good and anybody who speaks the truth about bad ideas is a naysayer or "basher". Anytime anybody has an idea we are all supposed to cheer it on. What rubbish.

Lets step back here. Nobody said it COULDN'T BE DONE. Many of us have said it could be done BETTER and/or CHEAPER. Many of us said that there are much BETTER ways to spend the money and attain the goals. Many of us have said that the hurdles that have to be crossed to pull this off are numerous and do not appear to have been thought about. What don't you understand about that?

So we are clear. The POOL will SUCK as a REEF DISPLAY. The POOL is POOR way to setup an auqaculture business. The POOL would make a good place to store large animals like sharks, but even seaworld has viewable glass panels on their large pool type of tanks.

Musho3210

05/28/2007, 04:39 PM

at least you wont need to buy like 50 1,000 watt Mh lights.....

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 04:42 PM

Medic, 32flavors... and whoever else.

Get over it. Stop being so touchy feely and offended by everything around you. It get's old. I certainly did not attack the OP and certainly do not care what he does with his money. He came here looking for information and I did my best to provide it.

Since when does everything in life need to be delivered with a coating of sugar? You guys really need to think long and hard about the difference between straight out factual dialog and an attack.

Many of you have done nothing but cheer the OP on based solely on feelings, not facts. Who is really doing the man a disservice?

You guys are quick to start accusing people of attacking others, but in reality that is what YOU guys have done becuas you did not like the advice that was given.

Time for a reality check guys.. both in the mirror and with the topic of this thread. Several of you have admited that you do not know what a setup like this would take and it is very obvious that several of you have no clue what it would take. With that being known, you still feel the urge to cheer it on and become disgruntled with anybody who is not onboard with the plan.

Hey the guy is a doctor and lives in California... that makes all of the laws of the universe change and anything goes!

Musho3210

05/28/2007, 04:45 PM

i actually think this will be a nice reef to look at with some diving equipment, its personal preferance on whether or not it will look nice, you cant say The pool will suck as a reef display since its all down to personal preference, you could say nanos look terrible and no one should get them, but many people think they look nice.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 04:56 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10031598#post10031598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
at least you wont need to buy like 50 1,000 watt Mh lights.....

No he will actually need to place the corals on the bottom of the pool or cover the pool with screening cloth. Even here in western PA on a cloudy day the local guy's greenhouse (with shading cloth) for exceeds any tanks lighting. Without the shading cloth, the light is too intense and the corals will bleach. His pools have maybe 2' of water above the sand bed.

Musho3210

05/28/2007, 05:08 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10031694#post10031694 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
No he will actually need to place the corals on the bottom of the pool or cover the pool with screening cloth. Even here in western PA on a cloudy day the local guy's greenhouse (with shading cloth) for exceeds any tanks lighting. Without the shading cloth, the light is too intense and the corals will bleach. His pools have maybe 2' of water above the sand bed.

but im right, why would you say im wrong then prove what i said? i said no need to buy light, you said no, then you said you need screens with natural sunlight, so you have too much light, why would you buy more? Doesnt make sense....

medic29

05/28/2007, 05:52 PM

Because he feels the need to prove he is right and show what he knows....although grammar is not one of them.

I for one don't expect things sugar coated, but I also do not care to have my ideas or thoughts shot down in an attacking fashion. By the way, yes I do know the difference, it happens to be part of my profession, can you say the same?? Oh, I forgot, you will be correct about it so there is nobody else who will be correct. Bean, unfortunately you have this issue with many of your threads. I have yet to see you post anything where you admit you might be wrong. I have seen you post many times where the comments and/or "advice" is rather harsh. Most times this is not necessary. No one has said that realistic information shouldn't be shared. Maybe you should take advice from grandma, if you can't say it nicely, keep it to yourself.

32flavors

05/28/2007, 06:03 PM

Bean, you are one bitter person with a very narrow perspective. There was a time when most of what we reefers do was a practical, and therefore ethical, imfeasiability. That changed. Much of what most of us want to do remains financially imfeasable. However, give somebody a big enough well of resources and desire, and you get... well, not to put too fine a point on it: visionaries who achieve that which has yet to been achieved. As a historian, I could post a dissertation in support of this statement, but I really don't have as much time as you... And things are a little different in California in terms of such an undertaking, but only because of the year-round weather. It is diferent than Pitts, PA. Finally, you just keep missing the point: as long as it's done with respect to ethically sustaining the inhabitants, then what does someone with a 200g reef look like compared to someone with 12k g? IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE TO JUDGE!! Pose reasonable questions for consideration, absolutely, but please, stop trying to defend what isn't a position of an absolute but a personal opinion about how someone should expend their resources. You aren't being reasobably helpful in the form of skepticism; you're being unreasonably pessimistic by suggesting that you know something can't or shouldn't be done, when you don't know that it can't and it isn't your place to say with absolute certainty that it shouldn't.

Have a lovely day, Bean.

ReefArtist

05/28/2007, 06:47 PM

I have to agree - Oh to have a dream and the dream come true. If you listened to the people above - we would be very boring. DREAM and make that DREAM come alive - just because YOU can't figure out how to do it doesn't mean someone else isn't SMARTER - right? I live in Florida and guess what someone has already done it! They use it to cure rock and it's full of fish - it's very cool and a lot of fun to watch from above. Just because some don't want to see the fish or corals from above - doesn't mean all. You are one person and only one person - some are much smarter - sorry, I'm sure you'll disagree but I really don't care. Again you are only one person. I'm also very sorry that I lowered myself to this - but I could count a lot of threads that this same person did the same thing - logical no. It's been done and the person is using it for their business. If I listened to everyone that said I can't, shouldn't, best not, it's dumb to do etc. I would have nothing and would be nothing!

don954

05/28/2007, 06:50 PM

it sounds like it will be like the reef pool at Discovery Cove, but with real corals.... Hey, if there is a market for that then an aquarist may want to do the same... Its his cash to burn! :)

ReefArtist

05/28/2007, 06:53 PM

That is how many businesses are started - people say it can't be done.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 07:03 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10031754#post10031754 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
but im right, why would you say im wrong then prove what i said? i said no need to buy light, you said no, then you said you need screens with natural sunlight, so you have too much light, why would you buy more? Doesnt make sense....

Good grief. I never said he needed to purchase lighting. I was pointing out that there is more than enough light, so much so that it may be a problem if not accounted for.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 07:22 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10031953#post10031953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
Because he feels the need to prove he is right and show what he knows....although grammar is not one of them. Ahh when all else fails resort to personal attacks that have nothing to do with the subject and while your at it accuse the other party of being harsh and combative. Classic.

I for one don't expect things sugar coated, but I also do not care to have my ideas or thoughts shot down in an attacking fashion. Nobody attacked your ideas or thoughts... get over it, unless of course you really do need it sugar coated so that your feelings don't get hurt.

By the way, yes I do know the difference, it happens to be part of my profession, can you say the same?? Ahh trying to take another personal swipe. Typical.

Oh, I forgot, you will be correct about it so there is nobody else who will be correct. On the contrary, there are many people that are correct. The problem here is not one of right or wrong. The problem here is rather simple. Some of you folks are not grounded in reality but don't want to hear it. To you ANY idea is good and dam anybody who knows enough to not agree.

Bean, unfortunately you have this issue with many of your threads. Yes I do... there are plenty of folks just like you who can't fathom that somebody may understand more about a subject than they do. There are plenty of folks who think fact and feeling count for the same thing and that any idea or theory is as valid as the next.

I have yet to see you post anything where you admit you might be wrong. I am wrong all the time, it is how I learn. You have not seen me post I am wrong, because I rarely speak out if I don't have my facts straight.

Take this thread for example. Please go back and tell me where exactly I am wrong regarding this subject? Ohh wait you can't! This is all about your touchy feely need to have things sugar coated and give accolades to anybody who has an idea.

I have seen you post many times where the comments and/or "advice" is rather harsh. Most times this is not necessary. Like I said, get over it. I did not attack the OP and there were certainly no problems in this thread until the usual suspects showed up complaining about feelings and mean people.

No one has said that realistic information shouldn't be shared. Maybe you should take advice from grandma, if you can't say it nicely, keep it to yourself. How do you make it through the day if you think my comments regarding this subject were that mean? Are you honestly that thin skinned that a factual dialog would offend you.

This is an utter waste of time.

Musho3210

05/28/2007, 07:26 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10032327#post10032327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Good grief. I never said he needed to purchase lighting. I was pointing out that there is more than enough light, so much so that it may be a problem if not accounted for.

i said they dont need electronical light, you said i was wrong, then after you said i was wrong you said they dont need electronical light? Its a good grief to you that you cant read properly.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 07:47 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10032008#post10032008 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 32flavors
Bean, you are one bitter person with a very narrow perspective. Haha.. I am not bitter at all and I certainly do not have a narrow perspective.

There was a time when most of what we reefers do was a practical, and therefore ethical, imfeasiability. That changed. What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

NOBODY SAID HE COULDN'T DO IT. I (WE) just laid out many of the the logistical issues, financial issues and aesthetic considerations. Once these items are all considered, it is fairly easy to come to the conclusion that there are much better routes to take for almost any desired end result. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?

1) Define the goal
2) Define the budget
3) Build a plan
4) Implement the plan

The man posted here without ANY of the above and instead with a very lose idea to turn a pool into a reef tank. The conversation started to evolve and will continue to evolve. In the meantime the cheerleaders are lining up chanting "just do it, just do it".

This is actually starting to get rather funny.

Much of what most of us want to do remains financially imfeasable. However, give somebody a big enough well of resources and desire, and you get... well, not to put too fine a point on it: visionaries who achieve that which has yet to been achieved. What does that have to do with the topic at hand? What a bunch of mush.

As a historian, I could post a dissertation in support of this statement, but I really don't have as much time as you... Your not the only student of history here. This is not a matter of history or innovation. This is not a matter of somebody telling a person it can not be done. It is a simple matter of applying common sense to an idea. I am sure of the guy wants to build a public aquarium in his back yard he could fight like hell to get it done and possibly be successful.

BUT WAIT! He did not say he wanted to build seaworld. He said he wanted to turn his pool into a reef tank. He then mentioned getting financial support by using it for aquarculture. The comments that followed were based on those premises.

Come on guys, fairly simple stuff here. We can do without all the touchy feely stuff.

And things are a little different in California in terms of such an undertaking, but only because of the year-round weather. It is diferent than Pitts, PA. I never knew that things were different. You see I have never left Pittsburgh, Pa.

Finally, you just keep missing the point: as long as it's done with respect to ethically sustaining the inhabitants, then what does someone with a 200g reef look like compared to someone with 12k g? IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE TO JUDGE!! Wow you just keep twisting this around and around... why is it that all of these thread with folks such as yourself take the same goofy turn? Who said anything about ethics? Who said anything about judging the guy? What in the world are you talking about?

Pose reasonable questions for consideration, absolutely, but please, stop trying to defend what isn't a position of an absolute but a personal opinion about how someone should expend their resources. Umm I have posed reasonable information... please show me where I have not?

You aren't being reasobably helpful in the form of skepticism; you're being unreasonably pessimistic by suggesting that you know something can't or shouldn't be done, when you don't know that it can't and it isn't your place to say with absolute certainty that it shouldn't. I never said it could not be done. I said that once the goals are defined it will be clear that there are much better courses of action, both from a financial standpoint and a logistical standpoint. I have said that some of you are to busy being offended to understand that. I have said that some of you are blindly cheering a guy on without understanding at all what you are cheering for. Pretty simple... you deep thinkers have made it much more complicated than it is.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 08:01 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10032510#post10032510 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Musho3210
i said they dont need electronical light, you said i was wrong, then after you said i was wrong you said they dont need electronical light? Its a good grief to you that you cant read properly.

You are joking right?

You are honestly that confused about the meaning and context of the comments?

What else can I say? If you honestly do not understand the context of what I said then this entire conversation is likely also out of your contextual understanding.

If English is NOT your first language then I can understand that context and meaning from written conversation may be hard to discern.

If on the other hand English is your first language, then you really need to go back and start this thread from the beginning. You may also want to be careful about accusing somebody of not being able to read and garner context, as it is very clear that you are having trouble with even very simple meaning.

FWIW "electronical" is not in the dictionary :)

Anyway, so that there is no confusion:

I did NOT disagree with your comments about needing lights. I said that the sun is likely going to be too bright for shallow laid corals (thus implying) that electric lights would not be needed.

Even with the missing comma and NO context, the meaning of the statement is still rather clear.

ludnix

05/28/2007, 08:04 PM

So is the main viewing going to be the top-down view or did you plan on installing a window? Either way I think it'll turn out pretty awesome. We have a pond of about 3,500g in our backyard and even with only freshwater fish I can watch it hours on end on a nice sunny day. With saltwater I can only imagine it'd be even more entertaining.

Good luck with your project, if I were in SoCal I'd be over there in a second to help you with this.

Michael L.

05/28/2007, 08:39 PM

Can this topic please get back on track! This is unneccessary and is ruining a perfectly good thread. Take your arguements to private message.

Could I possibly suggest... freshwater... I'll probably regret saying that on a reef forum. At least you could run freshwater for a few years and decide whether SW would be an attainable goal. Think of the tankbusters (pacus, catfish, etc.) that you could keep for a while. At least you could get it all set up and if it was a complete failure, you could get out before it became a total waste of money.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 08:54 PM

The freshwater would be a much easier setup from almost every standpoint. From water changes and water chemistry to energy requirements and hardiness, the freshwater system and reef are worlds apart.

I would still be concerned with contamination from pesticides (neighbors) and natural pollutants like pollen and windborn debris. Think about how much foreign material ends up in a swimming pool! This somewhat dictates that the investment needs covered.

Pacus would be very interesting. Large fish would also make for decent top down viewing subjects.

Don't get me wrong... a HUGE reef with a catwalk or two over it would be great as well. I would love to see a guy with a reef big enough to have a real school of fish.

I suppose the OP needs to first outline his goals or dreams. Without those, this is all a travel through wonderland and the side arguments are even more pointless.

areze

05/28/2007, 08:57 PM

I think on the scale there may be other problems. such as the durability of a pool.

if its concrete you might get away with it, but if its a vinyl pool, those liners do not last forever, a serious issue here.

the costs would be astonomical at best. the maintnence would be a fulltime job. of which the guy already has; and not exactly a 9 to 5 job at that.

its a bad plan to grow corals for sale. its just not reasonable. you would fit too many frags in a pool lol. the amount of additives you would require to keep up with the growth.

wheres that HUGE fresh water bass tank that guy built in his basement with an Lshaped viewing wall. I realize thats off topic since he's looking to incorporate the pool; but if he's all about a crazy awesome tank, that would be my choice by a long shot.

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 09:01 PM

That HUGE freshwater tank was a disaster (in some aspects). If you read the entire history of the tank, the guy has had a LOT of headaches and problems... though he is still pretty happy and appears to have most of the problems worked out over the last 10 years or so.

He appears to have spent millions too... well maybe not millions with an "S" but then again who knows!

Here is the "thread" with some of the information.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8952

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 09:18 PM

Just for kicks...

Most of that thread is mindless "wow cool tank man" kind of stuff. Someplace the guy used to have a site dedicated to the entire project. Following the thread kind of sucks.

50,000 gallons
10,000 gallon water change every week
600lb sand filter
$1200 per month for electricity (I think he mentioned it is more than double that now)
$1200 per month for gas (he also mentioned that has nearly doubled)
He keeps 1400lbs of frozen food on hand.

Now he does have MANY other "small" tanks and a waterfall and other stuff... interesting read if you have the time to sift through the posts.

deuceybiggs

05/28/2007, 09:37 PM

This is a possible thing.... Ever heard of Bass Pro Shops?
I work for an Aquarium Service company here in Cincinnati, OH.
We have a 23,000 Gallon Aquarium that we take care of for them.
Once a week I SCUBA dive for about an hour in this aquarium to scrub algae. There are 4 Jacuzzi sand filters s well as an eight foot Bio-tower. It is indoor which is a little different.... IT STILL GETS DAMN COLD IN THE TANK DURING WINTER!(55 deg.) We have two of the filters filled with carbon that is changed monthly. :rolleyes: One thing to remember is that a freshwater bass tank and a reef tank are two totally different entities entirely. Pay for my move and give me a salary of Fifty thousand/ yr. and i will hook you up:D

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 10:08 PM

Of course tanks that large or possible. Bill Wann is in the process of building a 17K gallon (display) system into his new house. The total volume at last report was in the 28K range.

Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90861

That is a lot different than trying to retrofit an outdoor swimming pool :)

BeanAnimal

05/28/2007, 10:09 PM

http://www.banderasnews.com/0605/re-lapsofluxury.htm

Nice setup there too. Rather small tank but it is between the pool and the game room. Again, not a retrofit but a fully engineered concept ($400,000 worth).

zeusfc

05/28/2007, 10:21 PM

OK coffee dolphin, now you've seen what we all think, are you convinced?
'still a viable project?

lets have some spec on the actual swimming pool...
what's it made out of?
what shape? what depth?
how many surface skimmers?
bottom drains or not?
what bore is the pipework?
are the outlets individually valves or is all that pipework under tons of concrete?
is there room to enclose it?
what make is the filtration/pump?
has the pool ever had copper algaecide put in it (most have!)?

lets get this thread back on track... good idea or bad, and why!

deuceybiggs

05/28/2007, 10:54 PM

So many oppinions in here... "What works for me may not be what works for you." that's what I always say!

TriniStylez

05/29/2007, 01:10 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10030065#post10030065 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by medic29
Talk about majorily bursting one's bubble!!! Maybe some tact next time???

Relax, it was a joke. Besides, you cannot seem to handle anyone having a different opinion than you. Let the OP get tell people he is offended, if in fact he IS offended...Dont start speaking for other people!

I have read through the whole thread and NO ONE has said its not possible, just that in THEIR opinion its not worth it. Personally, for me, its overkill...why not just skip all the headaches and stick with something around 600G and take all the thousands and make it a very unique and beautifully set up aquarium with the best equipment out there? Something you can just enjoy. How are 1 or 2 foot corals going to look in a pool anyways??? I was just at my local aquarium today and they have 6 foot sps colonies in a tank I would say is about 20, 000G and it looks great but as I said, they are about 6 feet. They also have Plate corals that must be 6 feet plus across...If you can fill a pool with this size corals, then yeah I think it would be awesome to dive in, otherwise...you will be diving amongst a bunch of 2 foot frags.

Having said all that, if he really wants to convert the pool into a saltwater tank, maybe sharks would be nice. But again, I think even that could be done nicer and cheaper in a 12,000 or so gallon tank.

I said it earlier, we had a 400G pond years ago and it was horrible for viewing.

Good luck with whatever you go with!

mope54

05/29/2007, 03:57 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10024603#post10024603 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coffeedolphin
if its allowed i'm doing it- but will need help...anyone in socal want to work on a pool reef??

haven't read through the whole thread yet, but definately want to help wand watch this progress...

my wife and I have always dreamed of a sunken tank that is viewable both indoor and outdoor.

AusWog

05/29/2007, 04:55 AM

would be awsome if u dug into the ground and put tunnels around the entire tank under ground and put 2 access stairs from either end.still kept a recangle look, just dug into the ground and put the glass as the wall closest to the water (has to be really thick) and walk the entire way around it and build the glass green house ontop but probably in the very high yearly income have to taken out a morgage type project but very cool...partially underground would keep it cold aswell

zeusfc

05/29/2007, 06:36 AM

what's the budget on this project?

0 - $5000,
$5000 - $25000,
$25000 - $50000,
or unlimited?

as I've cleaned my 15 pools for today, I've been looking at how each of them was UNsuitable... here's some stumbling blocks...

pesticides in rain/dust,
run-off from sprinklers taking debris from the lawn/patio into the pool,
extreme water loss in heavy wind (NOT evaporation, I'm talking waves big enough to lose you an inch or two of water in a couple of minutes... it happens here!)

water motion... there's a lot of motion needed to keep the flow around ten tons of liverock! swimming pools simply don't have adequate plumbing to cope with the extra horsepower!
a 15000g pool typically has four outlets on 2" pipes, a couple of skimmers, and a bottom drain; we've all heard believable "urban myths" of the girl who's drowned when her hair gets sucked into the bottom drain... I know where you're most likely to "find nemo"!
you need big pipes to reduce the effects of the suction... your pool won't have them!

basically, if you still are convinced this is the way you want to go, shout now and we're all behind you!

personally I'd be hooking up a cloverleaf and a dirty great OASE, and turning it into a Koi-pond for a total of less than a couple of grand!

sac-bobme

05/29/2007, 11:14 AM

the dust and stuff wouldnt be an issue w/ a glass house around it like he said he was going to do

luke33

05/29/2007, 12:41 PM

WOW, this is the first time i've seen this one. This is how it would have went down for me. I would have said, honey, i think i'm going to turn the old pool into a SW pool and spend alot of money on my dream tank........you have smoked one to many left handed cigs darling. Dream on! lol, no matter how many times i would have showed her how this dream would pay off and become profitable.....it would have always followed the rolled eyes and thougts of idioticy. lol, you must be single with to much money if you really plan on pullling this one off! Good luck! I'm rooting for you. My advice, just start it and mess up on the way. Re think and keep moving forward.

zeusfc

05/29/2007, 01:30 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10036211#post10036211 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sac-bobme
the dust and stuff wouldnt be an issue w/ a glass house around it like he said he was going to do

ah yes good point... didn't remember that when vacuuming dust out pools!

best water-motion device would be surge towers... but these would render surface skimmers useless

look at waikiki aquariums outdoor exibits for ideas

coffeedolphin

05/29/2007, 02:53 PM

THANKS for info- links- ideas-MUCH APPRECIATED!!! will fly to chicago for conference next week....

Pool-Reef update-
the city:
1) no laws against turning your pool into a reef as long as:
a) no salt water released into drains containing living organisms esp- non native
b) no illegal native organisms??(see above this one didnt make sense)
c) no violations of building codes
d) no commercial activity involved unless prelicensed
e) no violation of vector control laws
f) fully gated area

pool guy:
1-seen one already in laguna beach- mansion w/ infinity pool on cliff and side separate jacuzzi looking into an enclosed giant aquarium / pool - you can sit in the jacuzzi and watch models swim in the reef from the side- custom made w/ earthquake mounting absorbers- pre planned by same firm that did updates at long beach aquarium
2- said he thought salt water was 100 times stronger pool currently 30-40 ppmillion salt
3- pointed out that there is a large green city electricty box not too far from pool which could not be moved
4- noted otherwise pool in excellent structural condition and said he believes it would be possible- but also notes pool has small chance of popping out of ground at this sea level height if it were to be completely emptied??

contractor:
said can do anything including making enclosure- rewiring and re plumbing- with separate dedicated breakers- heaters- - even louvered ceiling to limit sunlight if I want- waiting for full quote

A/V guy- comes well reccomended- has over seventy custom installs in malibu and santa monica- will be here tomorrow

neighbor 1- im crazy

neighbor 2- please make sure to invite him when done- and please dont make too much noise

LFS group 2- be here after closing at 8 pm

thanks for all comments- ideas- i really appreciate it- 70 brains are better than one...

so far it seems like it can be done- but would be much more usable- practical- logical to build it custom in advance.....
i know i probably shouldnt do it- but i am very tempted just to see what happens... btw- as hard as it is believe i am normally not crazy..... ran a successful aquarium service company through medical school in DC in the late eighties and early nineties....have been around LARGE systems since far back as i can remember- father was a water purification engineer- helped designed and build worlds largest water desalination plants w/ the US dept of Interior JECOR- throughout the eighties- helped develop the first rolled RO membrane w/ US navy and parsons-bechtel-fluor prior to this....actually scuba dived within the pipes of these systems they were so huge-- have had aquariums entire adult life- everything from bettas to 300 g reefs.....just not bigger....yet. have dove in red sea, fiji, hawaii, pago-pago.... actually graduated with a degree in molecular physics from yale, but started off first year in mechanical engineering....so i dont know why i am being illogical and even pursuing this... but what the hell- what else am i going to do w/ my time?? i dont watch television, dont go clubbing-- and I love playing with aquariums..might as well build a reef.... will keep you updated

BeanAnimal

05/29/2007, 02:59 PM

Yes the pool can POP out of the ground if emptied. The water table is very shallow in many parts of cali. When you drain the pool it can actually float out of it's hole.

Yes, it would be MUCH more usable and practical if it were engineered to be a reef form the getgo.

Are you OK with only being able to view from the top down?

Michael L.

05/29/2007, 05:18 PM

Bean, you can get a device called "SNUBA". It is basically a simple SCUBA reg hooked up to an air compressor on a long hose. I think they are a couple hundred bucks and with a mask and a few pounds on a weight belt coffeedolphin could get a perfectly good view of the reef and access to frags.

We use them to dive boats (rezincing and bottom cleaning) and for picking up crap off the bottom of our pool with the vacuum.

BeanAnimal

05/29/2007, 05:33 PM

I have worked with commercial divers many times. I have seen those, as well as the full dive helmets with supplied air and surface tether.

There was never a question as to the fact that there are certainy "ways" to view such a system up close. If you want to see the moon up close, or even in person there are ways also :)

mope54

05/29/2007, 05:33 PM

I have an idea/deal:

Build a gazebo next to your pool, add a bar and jacuzzi, then build a huge circular tank.

Make sure your pool is clean and ready to run over the summer and I'll keep the pool/jacuzzi stocked with an assortment of hot, bikini clad women.

Beaner3

05/29/2007, 05:34 PM

The SNUBA! Thanks for seconding that motion Michael L!

It sounds like CoffeeDolphin has done a little homework, and leg work. I have never seen anything like this done for private enjoyment before. And you have your bases covered on the maintenance side as well. I'm throwing my 2 cents in again and saying run a FOWLR in that pool for a while, at least a year, let all of the live rock goodies get a foothold, it will also give you time to see how all of that water will balance out. Good luck with it man! And post some pics if you really get moving on it and do this thing!

Kentanner11

05/29/2007, 08:07 PM

I dont want to get into it, but personally I would not use my pool but instead make an insanely huge tank. Then with any left over money start a summer program for teens/adults who are interested in saltwater. Or what you could do would be; make a LFS lol!

Kentanner11

05/29/2007, 08:09 PM

I dont want to get into it but I would personally build an insanely huge tank that could be built inside your house even if it was the size of an entire room, you could allways add to your house!,
I would do if I were you would start a program/internship for teens/adults who were interested in saltwater. Give back to the community in that sense, share the saltwater hobby. Anyways nomatter what you do good luck!

Steven0000

05/29/2007, 09:28 PM

i would build a tank that you could go under and come up through the middle

kind of like a big dough nut
but with a square or rectangular hole in the middle

that way you could see all kinds of reef inhabitants

zeusfc

05/29/2007, 10:41 PM

OK lets accept this is going to happen...

any chance of a couple of pictures of the pool as it is, so we can visualise the whole thing?

coffeedolphin

05/29/2007, 11:58 PM

Spoke w/ second 'experts' - they basically said it would suck and i wouldnt be able to see anything- (very depressing) - and cleaning the curved sides would be a nightmare- they said i should build a rectangular tank partially underground- partially above ground on the other side of the house - more sun - more practical- and add an addition to sunroom - extension 1/2 flight down to view at eyesight level ..... this is exactly what auswog said ..... they think i can still make a 3-4k gallon new purpose built tank which i would actually use- for much less than the conversion - they also said not to trust the other lfs guys.. and after the novelty wears off i would be stuck w a mess........sooo should i be stubborn or sensible....i am going to ask 'experts' at chicago conference... if they say it sucks- am going to build the partial underground 3-4k tank

Sarcophyton874

05/30/2007, 12:18 AM

What are you planning to SCUBA in your own tank? I mean a few vacations to the South Pacific would suffice. You might even be able to buy your own reef in Fiji. :p

TriniStylez

05/30/2007, 12:29 AM

I really like the new idea of the partially underground tank.

ludnix

05/30/2007, 01:20 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10037811#post10037811 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Yes the pool can POP out of the ground if emptied. The water table is very shallow in many parts of cali. When you drain the pool it can actually float out of it's hole.

A friend of mine had his pool rip out of the ground from it being empty far too long. He left it empty for about 6 months due to his laziness and unwillingness to maintain a pool. The pool basically turns into a boat with the water underneath and all cement breaks around it raising the pool 4-5ft above the surface.

I don't know any steps to preventing this other than filling it with water, but I imagine it will all depend on what season of the year you're working on it.

Good luck and I can't wait to see some pics! How about some pics of the pool in it's current state?

BeanAnimal

05/30/2007, 06:16 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10041327#post10041327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coffeedolphin
Spoke w/ second 'experts' - they basically said it would suck and i wouldnt be able to see anything- (very depressing) - and cleaning the curved sides would be a nightmare- they said i should build a rectangular tank partially underground- partially above ground on the other side of the house - more sun - more practical- and add an addition to sunroom - extension 1/2 flight down to view at eyesight level ..... this is exactly what auswog said ..... they think i can still make a 3-4k gallon new purpose built tank which i would actually use- for much less than the conversion - they also said not to trust the other lfs guys.. and after the novelty wears off i would be stuck w a mess........sooo should i be stubborn or sensible....i am going to ask 'experts' at chicago conference... if they say it sucks- am going to build the partial underground 3-4k tank

Exactly what some of us have been saying all along :)

You will be much happier with well designed tank compared to the nightmare of trying to retrofit a swiming pool. If the water table is that high, you may have a hard time building something you step down into. The tank may have to be raised and landscaped around to give the feeling instead.

PAUL327

05/30/2007, 11:38 AM

Forget the headaches that will come with a swimming pool reef. Save your $$$$$$$$$$$ and invest in an awesome reef tank that will be the envy of your friends and guests from your living room. What about earthquakes? Floods? Fires? would you want a natural disaster to ruin your Pool Reef? I wouldn't. I live In florida and I'm having a hell of a time just keeping my reef safe from all of the hurricanes. Great thought but bad idea. I dont know if it hails in your part but I went through two hail stroms last month say good bye to your green house. Just my opinion though. Plus who knows what Mother Nature has in store for Hunting Beach in the future and for the entire country as far as that goes.

skimate

05/30/2007, 12:41 PM

I’ve been dreaming of building a reef in a large pool although not quite on this scale (10’x15’x5’). One option I’ve considered for viewing is to build a concrete room in the centre with windows in it and a bride to access the room. I dismissed the idea due to the space it would take up but it sounds feasible on a pool this size.

plandy

05/30/2007, 12:55 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10041327#post10041327 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coffeedolphin
i would be stuck w a mess........sooo should i be stubborn or sensible....

You'd definitely be stuck with a regrettable mess if you proceed with this pool idea. It's such a shame to see all that time and resource wasted toward a dead end project. Listen up and build that large semi grounded tank and enjoy the rewards of finely engineered mini ocean reef. Make it any shape and size your heart desires.

Horace

05/30/2007, 01:14 PM

I would def go with the custom built tank. You can get yourself a MONSTER fiberglass tank built and then install glass where ever you want for viewing. Our local Culvers just put in a 1500g fiberglass tank with two starfire viewing panes of like 3'x10'. Seriously, if you cant view it from the side(s) then its going to be a big waste of money IMO. Build it so your guests can be amazed...no guest is going to appreciate the hard work/money you put into a tank that they cant even visually enjoy.

PAUL327

05/30/2007, 06:09 PM

I agree Horace

Beaner3

06/01/2007, 12:37 AM

Use the pool as a filter/ some type of refugium for a massive wall tank set up to separate your inside from the out doors, With a mega deep sand bed and maybe a sea grass type biotope. That would be pretty cool too. To have one whole wall of your house as a reef. And your pool to filter it. Like a 10 foot high thing made out of 4" acrylic with 1/8" skinning the outside of it to protect the actual aquarium panel from scratching. When the 1/8" gets too scratched. it will be much cheaper to replace than a whole 4" ten foot tall sheet. The fee for this consultation will be waived as long as you post some pics of your pool at least. haha

BeanAnimal

06/01/2007, 06:59 AM

"skinning" the viewing panel will make for a rather poor viewing experience. Light is reflected/refracted at each air/material interface. In the case of two panels, that means

AIR
SURFACE
ACRYLIC
SURFACE
AIR
SURFACE
ACRYLIC
SURFACE
WATER

The net result is a significant amount of distortion. In other words the benefits of using acrylic for clarity will be lost. Depending on the height, low iron glass may provide a less distorted view and be more durable. The problem with the glass is the thickness needed for strength and the loss of light and clarity due to that thickness.

Wo certainly DO laminiate viewing panes (Your car windshield is two panes of glass with a sheet of flexible plastic inside). However the materials are sandwiched very tightly (fused) together to eliminte much of the distortion.

Think of the distortion on a double pane window when you look through it at an angle. Notice the extra reflections?

Beaner3

06/01/2007, 07:56 AM

Really? I built this aquarium and installed it with a sheet of 1/8" skinning the side you see here. This tank is in a bar and restaurant and I did this to protect it from the possibilty of some drunken stiff running his keys all across the front. Looks terrible and distorted doesn't it?! You are just shooting everything down everywhere BeanAnimal. I would love to see your "perfect" setup because I'm SURE a know it all like you has all the best gear to go with all that knowledge stuffed into your gigantic brain. See? now I'm getting negative here. I'm not even responding to any more of your posts. :mad: no one likes a knowitall

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w183/beaner3_03/Mytank009.jpg

To everyone else though, skinning an aquarium with thin cast acrylic DOES work and does NOT distort. I can say this from first hand experience. Also notice THE ANGLE that this picture was taken, I don't see any "SIGNIFICANT DISTORTION" do you?

Flamehawk

06/01/2007, 08:17 AM

That tank looks just fine to me :) JOHNNY

BeanAnimal

06/01/2007, 08:56 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10056076#post10056076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3
Really? I built this aquarium and installed it with a sheet of 1/8" skinning the side you see here. This tank is in a bar and restaurant and I did this to protect it from the possibilty of some drunken stiff running his keys all across the front.[b] There is a difference between a display in a bar and display costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in a home. Get real.

[b][quote] Looks terrible and distorted doesn't it?! Who could tell from a photo like that. Honestly man... this is nonsense.

You are just shooting everything down everywhere BeanAnimal. Get over it and grow some thicker skin. Why is it that you just can not handle people who disagree with you? Why is it that you feel the right to make personal attacks when you somebody disagrees or has a different opinion? Get over it and grow up.

I would love to see your "perfect" setup because I'm SURE a know it all like you has all the best gear to go with all that knowledge stuffed into your gigantic brain. And there we go with the personal insults. GROW UP. There is no such thing as perfect. Why are YOUR ideas and opinions valid but not mine? This has NOTHING to do with perfect. It has to do with the exchange of information. NOT ALL IDEAS are good ideas beaner. Holding a different opinion is certainly not hostile. Having knowledge, logic and sound reason to back that opinion is also not a crime. Just becuse YOU don't have a gigantic brain stuff with knowledge, does not mean some of us don't. Get over it.

See? now I'm getting negative here. I'm not even responding to any more of your posts. :mad: no one likes a knowitall No your making personal attacks like a spoiled child. If you don't like my opinion, refute it kindly or don't say anything at all.

To everyone else though, skinning an aquarium with thin cast acrylic DOES work and does NOT distort. The average blind monk could tell if a 1/8" sheet of acrylic is placed in front of a display tank. The point WAS that somebody spending THAT KIND OF MONEY on a luxury display MAY NOT WANT the added distortion. I SURE WOULD NOT.

A) We are talking about people who spend thousands extra on STARFIRE glass to get just a bit more light transmision and a little less tinting compared to regular glass.

B) We are talking about people who use ACRYLIC because IT IS CLEARER than GLASS with LESS DISTORTION.

So the point remains the same. ADDING A unbonded layer to the front of the tank will add to the distortion of the object viewed inside the tank. Pretty dam simple fact that is easily demontstrated via science or first hand observation.

When coupled with A and B above, my point is that IT MAY NOT BE WANTED. What don't you get about that? It does not take a gigantic brain full of knowledge.

I can say this from first hand experience. Also notice THE ANGLE that this picture was taken, I don't see any "SIGNIFICANT DISTORTION" do you? I don't know the picture kind of sucks for the purpose you are trying to use it for. Secondly, a picture is rather useless for this purpose anyway.

illal

06/01/2007, 09:09 AM

this whole thread is nonsense

zeusfc

06/01/2007, 10:37 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10055091#post10055091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Beaner3
Use the pool as a filter/ some type of refugium for a massive wall tank set up to separate your inside from the out doors, With a mega deep sand bed and maybe a sea grass type biotope. That would be pretty cool too. To have one whole wall of your house as a reef. And your pool to filter it.

RATFPML!!!!!

congrats Bean on reaching over 9000 posts... at this rate you'll have the 10000 by July 4th...

BeanAnimal

06/01/2007, 02:53 PM

just 50,000 or so behind Randy Farley :D

Thanks for reminding me that I spend too much time helping people and not enough time drinking beer!

coffeedolphin

06/01/2007, 08:33 PM

Update: have been discussing idea extensively- thanks once again for all the help- the feedback has been helping me shape this into a more reasonable and doable project............

A/V guys said forget it- even highest rez nothing close to what i want/ what looking up close at aquarium

someone did the pool-reef in miami a few years ago- started off w/ some corals on shelves- big mess- did nothave custom enclosure- just tarp for rains- became a big mess- gave up after one year--

pool-reef would work better in tropics w new plumbing- done many times esp for aquaculture

i was asked to start w/ goals & budget & work forward not backward from spur of moment idea so here are goals, of course SAFETY being first, w/ budget of 80k for system 20k for livestock:

1) Very large system 4k gallons plus

2) able to keep grow any corals

3) rely on natural lighting as much as possible

4) if feel like it- can get into pool from above

5) keep maintanance down as much as feasible

6) view should be at least one side at least 12 feet by four foot

That said based on all excellent comments above- i think a new pool-reef 16 ft by 12 ft by 10 high - rectangular- with four feet below ground on 2 ft concrete pad--- six feet above and 12 foot viewing pane along the 16 ft side is reaonable. on the back side there would be a cover -maintanance room with ladder to view from above and enter- three foot- with a side one foot rim leaving a central open to sunlight area of fourteen wide by 8 from front to back.....maintenace room
would be a 4 by 16 shed behind for equipment- would not have a sump- just one large industrial skimmer. would make a diy live rock framework inside the system curing w/ light salinity to check system thoroughly.. a s for protective acrylic on glass- more than scratches i am concerned about earthquakes- i have to be certain that 12 by 4 sheet does not pop off under any circumstance- and that there are no cracks......maybe a concrete basin lined w/ fiberglass one fit rim- either glass or acrylic presed against the rim- does anyone have experience w this???

coffeedolphin

06/01/2007, 08:44 PM

Also- if making DIY infrastructure live rock- could i use 1 1/2 inch pvc pre drilled with increasing diameter holes from proximal to distal as framework to make the diy rock- and run flow out through rock both during curing as wella s later when adding real rock/ inhabitants- ie flow would be from inside therock out- as well as surge device- has anyone done this before- would it work??

coffeedolphin

06/01/2007, 08:45 PM

also- for the roof panels- what would be th ebest material- - i have a sunroom now w/ some type of plastic large 2 by 6 ft panels- but they appear to be slightly yello already after six years..... any suggestions on roof panel material??

coffeedolphin

06/01/2007, 08:48 PM

THANKS ONCE AGAIN FOR ALL COMMENTS: BOTH THE SUPPORTIVE AND THE CRITICAL - I AM LEARNING FROM BOTH!!! :)

BeanAnimal

06/02/2007, 07:26 AM

I think it will depend on what kind of structure you plan to build.

Glass may be an option and would likely be the best for durability. However earthquake damage is a consideration also.

Lexan is the most durable with regard to earthquakes, but I believe it has a lower light transmision ratio than does clear acrylic.

The problem with lexan is that it scratches so easily. Acrylic will aslo scratch easily.

This may be a question for you local sunroom contractor that has experience with sunroom type structures in your area.

t-bone2

06/02/2007, 02:23 PM

wow another ruined thread good luck coffeedolphin in what ever your decision is sounds like you have been doing this along time research is always the most important part of any decision again good luck

zoly5

06/02/2007, 02:31 PM

hey i live in huntington beach too. JW were is your house in HB?

BeanAnimal

06/02/2007, 02:52 PM

t-bone what exactly is ruined about the thread?

It would appear to me that several of us have offered coffeedolphin a substantial amount of help in finding a direction for this project.

We have helped find the right questions to ask.
We have helped him determine that converting a concrete swimming pool into a reef is not likely the best use of resources and will not likely provide the best overall viewing or maintenance experience when the same resources could be used to engineer a system beter suited to meet his needs.
We have helped him determine that whatever he builds need to be isolated from the runoff and debris from being placed outdoors.
We have helped him determine that flow and rock structure will be important and may be better addresses in a ground up engineered system.

I could go on... but it would be pointless.

t-bone2

06/02/2007, 03:00 PM

oh i thought it looked more like an episode of wwe on monday night everyone has some sort of good imput no matter which side of the road there comming from instead it turns into a ****ing contest on weathers who right or wrong thats all

coffeedolphin

06/02/2007, 04:10 PM

Spoke with Anthony Calfo and Sang Ly at IMACS: Calfo said hes seen MANY pool-reefs especially in tropics- said he has taken tons of pictures of them and in them with viewboxes -and that its very easy to make an overhead viewbox that floats from acrylic- he will put together the pictures of the pools and lagoons and place them on his marine depot advice site to show what can be done....

Started a a discussion w/ hobbysists after talking to experts--at lunch break- Essentially consensus was that pool reef retro will take more than 30 hrs aweek to maintain while custom half pool-half tank reef will take ten or less hours aweek.......with better view---

Sang of ecosystems was very helpful and gave me acopy of a GREAT magazine: CORAL- a translation of a german magazine Koralle--- the recent 2007issue is dedicated to......GIANT TANKS!!! they interview Knop and his tank w/ pictures over 15 yeasr and this guy yiall (likely mispelled) who made a 20k tank- turning it into a public aquarium!!- I have to finish reading this on the way back and will update monday ---

BeanAnimal

06/02/2007, 05:05 PM

Yup the float box allows a clear view of the corals underneath without the surface distortion. This is also a geat way to photograph your corals from the top down.

You may also want to look back at some of the past TOTM setups. Some have been VERY large.

shyland83

06/02/2007, 08:13 PM

are you talking about joe yaiullo? 20k gallon reef tank at atlantis marine world in riverhead NY. definitly worth visiting if you plan on building a big tank.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium

Kentanner11

06/02/2007, 10:46 PM

Cool this sounds interesting!

steveomori

06/03/2007, 02:01 AM

Sounds nuts to me I think this was a hypothetical question. As for oc aquatics, please find a second opinion. oc aquatics are knowledgeable but not experts in my opinion. I have found fault in much of their advice.

UrbanSage

06/03/2007, 03:48 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10064095#post10064095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by t-bone2
oh i thought it looked more like an episode of wwe on monday night everyone has some sort of good imput no matter which side of the road there comming from instead it turns into a ****ing contest on weathers who right or wrong thats all

I completely agree, a very few have provided some clear thought throughout this whole charade. The thread author has even come to the same conclusions as the very few have been supporting since the get-go.

The personal attacks in this thread have been on a level on which I am surprised they have been answered, each one as far as I can tell. But maybe the responder did not know the low level of comments he would receive once he began responding.

There definitely are some sensitive people following this thread and they should focus on reason/logic before composing any type of comment. Once that has been done, they should read their comment again before hitting the send button.

And in response to the thread.
I think you have an amazing goal. But I really do not think it should be pursued with the tools you currently have. And I believe you will end with the conclusion you have currently.
I strongly believe that even if you managed to convert your 12,000 gallon pool into a saltwater tank you will not benefit as much from it as you would a 4,000 gallon aquarium, designed to be exactly that.
I really do hope you end up with a solution that you will be very happy with, and I will happily follow the progress in any such thread.

coffeedolphin

06/04/2007, 12:00 AM

ok - after sitting down w/ data - costs - & family- i got the ok on the custom made aquarium- as described above - but limited to 16 by 10 by 7 ft high- apparently the three ft height makes a huge difference in pricing the base concrete work and 12 ft wide would hit my chimney.... will keep everyone updated..... and will keep dreaming about the swimming pool reef- maybe when i retire ....

kimoy

06/04/2007, 06:24 AM

one suggestion i have is why not custom built a reef where it will be one of your house wall? it's like having a reef built so that one side is seen from outside of your house and the other side is from the inside. it would be so awesome that you can view your reef from both sides.

BeanAnimal

06/04/2007, 07:11 AM

COffee are you planning on putting this outside in a sunroom? Do you have some photos of the area?

rockethippo12

06/09/2007, 11:25 PM

If you plan to actually do this in the future, I would suggest having the tank/reef/pool covered then have a large sump in a shed/sunroom to take care of all the evaporation.

Cuby2k

06/10/2007, 12:35 AM

Hey coffee, you go man. What a fun idea and worthy of discussion if not a full speed go ahead. It could be an awesome snorkeling hole.

There us a similar place in the west desert in Utah, just about 60 miles west of Salt Lake. They have sharks and all kinds of fish and permit scuba diving on certain days of the week. they have been in operation for around 12 years I think.

zeusfc

07/05/2007, 02:34 PM

OK, I've had to do a lot of research on saltwater pools over the last few weeks, and these really aren't suitable for reefs at all!

Firstly, there IS chlorine in a salty system.. it's just that it is created from salt as opposed to being added. chlorine levels can reach up to 10ppm... not what you want to be leaching into a reef!

secondly, the pumps used in "salty" systems are NOT marine compatable... there is no assumption that they would be saved for the reef, but they would have brass or copper bearings, and this would break down into the water, and as such would leach into the concrete of the pool.

the only logical way to attempt this would be to create a partition wall in the hole, and put all the pipework and pumps etc behind it, then to completely line the hole with fibreglass... effectively create a "tank within a tank"...

zeusfc

07/05/2007, 02:34 PM