Where to draw the line?

[Mr31415]

What would you do if you were me. A brief history of where I live...

In South Africa we have maybe 2-3 large LFS shops - and by large I mean one for instance have say 50 or so small marine tanks, one 520g show tank and another 2600g display tank (fish only).

The particular one I visit is the importer of the major brands like Deltec, Giesemann, Aqua Medic, Tunze, etc. Their tanks are rather clean and rarely do you see diseases or lots of dead fish. Corals are usually in nice shape and the general feel is that they look after their live stock. The are 31 miles from my house so to go there is a 62 mile trip. Closer to me there are a couple of shops but they typically have 1-3 tanks and not places I'd give my money to for live stock - their shops are just not up to standard and they are way too expensive.

I have spend about USD 25000 there during the past year - so I am definitely supporting them very well. I have purchased 4 tanks - one 145g, one 120g, one 31g and the latest one - the 480g tank. All my equipment, food and live stock I buy from them. I have been dealing with one specific sales guy the whole time and he has always considered what is best for my aquariums more than what is best for their income - i.e. many times he advised me against purchasing something if it was doomed to die or if my tank was not yet ready.

Enough history - now for the dilemma. Those who followed my 480g project thread would recall I have had lots of troubles these past couple of months. I am going to try and state the facts as objectively as I can, and I'd like you to raise your personal opinion as to what you would have done were you me, in THIS country (South Africa). This is important because in Europe or USA I am sure you can just walk to the next massive LFS and do your business with them. Here I do not really have that luxury - there are VERY few large, well run LFS shops here.

With that in mind:

1) The first 480g tank they built (using 2x10mm bases - according to them and others in SA a standard practice) broke within 24 hours of filling it with water. The crack ran for 2.7m - all the water was lost in an hour or so. So I lost 2 x 25kg buckets of salt, 1700l RO/DI water and ofcourse the tank. While I was on holiday and this had happened, they came to my house and investigated the situation. Immediately they acknowledged it was a bad tank and offered to build a new one free of charge. One month later the new tank (this time with 3 x 10mm bases) and the new stand (thicker square tubing, more center support braces) was delivered. They also gave me 2 x 25kg buckets of salt for free. They did not have time to level it for me - I had to do that. I asked the owner to come out and ensure it is set up properly befor I fill it - he said he was too busy to come out within the next 2-3 days but he is sure it will be ok - carry on.

2) 3 days after the new tank had been filled, I noticed a new crack as discussed in another topic - between the two bulkhead holes, on the lower of the 3 layered 10mm glass panes on the bottom of the tank. No water is leaking obviously, but the crack is there. I phoned them and they said I had nothing to worry about - it happens. They said the structural integrity of the tank is still intact as the other two panels still support it and even though the bottom one has a 14cm crack, it is still providing structural strength. They gave NO hint that they were stressed or that it is a gamble with 480g of water... So obviously there is no chance they will replace it for me without cost.

3) The canopy they built is an open top design. The tank was designed to have two 25mm return pipes from the overflow to two 25mm holes drilled on either side at the opposite end of the tank. I plumed it like that, but when I tried to put the canopy on I realised the support beam they added to the canopy connecting the two long sides in the middle, was way too low and pressed on the return pipes. There was no way that canopy could fit on the tank. I had to break it loose, and raise it by about 40mm before it fitted on top of the tank.

4) Trying to order some Giesemann lights from then I was told 4-5 times during the course of 2 months that the shipment is on its way. Obviously I started getting skeptical so I called the owner of the shop (I used to deal with my regular contact who I think is a manager at the shop - apart from the owner by far the most clued up there). He informed me that they were just waiting for the decision which colours they were going to order then in about 10 days' time he would place the order, then in about 3-4 weeks the order should arrive from Europe. That was AFTER 2 months of hearing it is already on its way.

5) 3 months ago when I ordered my 480g and all the equipment, I specifically ordered a Deltec AP 703 skimmer - the short one that can fit in the sump. Two months later when the shipment finally came - all the skimmers were there except for a 703 - so I had to get a 902 which does not fit underneath the tank...

6) The design of the sumps are so bad that I can barely get my hands underneath the tank to work inside the sumps. No way I can get that 703 skimmer in there even if I had it.

7) The canopy is a HUGE mission to remove from the tank due to the location of the tank. But there is no way to remove the side panels of the canopy so in practise it is impossible for me to work in my tank (moving LR etc) with the canopy on. I phoned them today asking for a solution - I got a very unwilling response that they will see whether there is something they can do, but don't get your hopes up.

So my question - are these people taking me for a ride? Are they taking advantage of me and am I not getting the quality of service I should be expecting to get by international standards?

Or is this pretty standard practise and what they are doing is average for what is going on in the LFS industry? I am asking since in my line of business I would NEVER give a client a half written system - I will always go out of my way to give them the best I can. I just feel I am maybe not getting that kind of deal?

[Jojoyojimbi]

So my question - are these people taking me for a ride? Are they taking advantage of me and am I not getting the quality of service I should be expecting to get by international standards?


Yes, they are

[justinl]

they are definitely giving you the short end of the stick. sounds to me like they're all talk, but when it comes to actually giving you the right equipment, they are (put bluntly) liars.

Would it be possible for you to ship in a tank made in Europe? or at least by someone else (like an actual company) respectable? btw, with 480gallons of SW tank, i would not take the gamble that it will hold, given the unreliability of the first tank's craftsmanship.

[davidryder]

Well if you were paying them to design the system yeah you could be upset but if they were doing it free of charge then the responsibility was probably yours to get all the specs and measurements in order.

I doubt they're taking your for a ride - not many stores have the staff to give every customer 100% attention - at least without an additional charge.

[d4a2n0k]

Either you're too nice or they are walking over you or both...

Any custom aquarium should be PERFECT and I personally would not stand for "It should be ok" from them. You just bought this tank new and it has a crack a few hours after filling it? Unacceptable! No ifs, ands or buts. Return it, you've been there once already with a busted tank.

If I had given a LFS that much business, Ill be damned to walk out of the store without the skimmer I wanted. Any store worth anything would have said" Ill put a special order in for your Deltec 703" even though it doesnt coincide with THEIR order. Were not talking a few bucks here rather a VERY expensive skimmer. Its not like they are doing YOU are favor here you are spending your hard earned money, get what YOU want not what they have in stock.

You spent all this money, you should be 100% happy. Lets face it, you are obviously not happy or else you wouldnt have posted this so dont stand for it!

I would go back and tell them to stick the tank.....

[reeffreak2007]

What a horror story..yes they are taking you for a ride.I would take legal action!

[reidcrandall]

I'd say that it doesn't matter if it's salt water fish or any other business. What this sounds like is a total disragard for the customer. I'd hate to say that they have what's coming to them in the end, but with so few choices, many customers will just deal with it. I hope that you won't be one of them. You need to demand more from them, especially considering the amount of money you have invested... and the money that you WILL be investing on the animals inside the tank (not to mention the lives of those inhabitants).

It's not like we're talking a drinking glass that you paid $10 for that isn't holding water. And I would say that even if it were, you would have grounds for a complaint.

Don't sell yourself short.

Reid

[mrme]

lol well i don't know how your going to take legal action. :P


I would not feel comfortable with a small crack in ANY fish tank man.
Even a 10 gallon. Small cracks get bigger, and if you drop some LR on it or somthing slams against it, it may get bigger.
When dealing with that many gallons, you really should have everything perfect, and should not be rushing around trying to make everything fit.

Im sorry things are getting hard for you. Just be wise as to what you spend your money on. Don't buy things that don't work with your needs.

Is there anyway to replace, That single Glass panel that is broken ?

[Mr31415]

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate it.

mrme - yes I guess so. By breaking down the tank, taking it out to someones factory and replacing the bottom sheet of glass (2.7m by 850mm). But it will be on my cost.

It is just that I would not go back a second time asking for a new tank. I mean if they cannot get it right in the first two attempts then why the third? So if I am going to take action on this it will most probably mean asking another manufacturer here to fix it at my own cost, and just not to deal with the mentioned LFS. Problem is just like I say - they are the main importers for the bulk of the quality equipment in the country so even if I go to someone else the orders and stuff still goes through them.

:S

[Mr31415]

I guess the big question is now...

1) Do I go back to the LFS and tell them this is unacceptable, that I want another (3rd) replacement tank and hope they get it right for the third time?

2) Do I just take the tank to another (hopefully trusted) tank builder and at my own cost and specifications have that base replaced with a 1" solid base or maybe a 19mm and one 10mm pane?

[BigBadBlenny]

never settle for anything you are not happy with. its your money and its your right to get quality.

get a refund.

[Dave Cox]

You've been more than patient in your dealing with them.

You have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars with them and, if satisfied, you would go on doing so.

Personally, I would request a face-to-face meeting with the owner and manager, explain how very unhappy you are with the situation and that you've spent thousands with them, and give them a final chance to put things right.

Are you in touch with other customers from the shop ? Do they encounter similar problems ?

[Mr31415]

Dave - unfortunately I do not know any other customers since the shop is 50km away from my home - thus not really people from my neighborhood.

I think you have the right idea...

[kathainbowen]

I don't think you're intentionally getting taken for a ride. I do think you're getting shoddy worksmanship caused by being forced to rely on a shop due to its location. Even if the tank is ok to hold water, it sounds like everything else is completely wrong from what you want/need. You've spent a great deal of time and money in this endeavor (think about that 50km ride you have to do each time you want to go to the "local" fish store).

As per finding out info on reliable vendors in your area, why not try haunting aquarium society meetings in the area? Have you tried your local clubs/forums to see if there's anyone out there with vendor experience that count point you in a better direction? Maybe on SA Reefkeeping.com (http://www.sareefkeeping.com/) ?

[Mr31415]

Thanks kathainbowen - I am busy trying to get some opinions there right now. The only trick is that the LFS in question is one of the sponsors...

[Mr31415]

Based on what all of you said (and remembering this is not US so I cannot just sue them ;) ) I have decided to contact a local tank builder who came highly recommended by another LFS here...

I just phoned him and agreed that the best course of action would be for him to come out and look at the tank - and the base especially - and depending on his assessment either replace the base at my own cost or if the crack is not serious (I doubt it is NOT serious) leave it.

Like I said the LFS who built it would most likely not replace the base again for free, and certainly would not refund me. So maybe the best is like they say - "Cut your losses and take your business elsewhere".

Maybe this guy can fix the canopy design too... The sumps - well I will have to live with that. Otherwise I have to replace the whole stand too.

I forgot to mention - the two bulkhead holes they drilled were not concentric (remember 3 panels of glass, each one drilled separately). In fact, the holes were so misaligned that I had to use sandpaper grinding down the misaligned pieces to make the bulkheads go through. I am pretty sure it is not difficult to drill 3 panels separately, and concentrically if you measure accurately.

Also, everytime they brought the tank/stand in and out of the house they scratched my front door. Never fixed it. Now I will have to take it down and re-varnish the whole thing...

[ralphie16]

Sorry to hear your troubles.

For the first time in my life, I am happy that I live in a land of a million lawyers where this would be taken care of with legal action. I would suggest you contact an attorney and let the law of the land take care of this. I hope your laws are decent....is that why you are scared of legal action? I don't see why you don't call your lawyer? Even get money back for your front door.

[Mr31415]

ralphie - The thing is I am not sure legal action is the right first step. My way of doing things would be to first assess whether I am being taken advantage of (the intention of this topic), once that is established discuss my gripes with the owner. If we cannot reach an agreement AFAIK in this country I have no grounds for civil action. I mean, there is no way I can prove I did not cause that crack as it was delivered without it. Was it poor workmanship? Did I break it when I install the bulkheads? Who knows.

The design of the tank - I am 99% sure any lawyer will laugh it off since nowhere did I state the exact design. I never said I want to have enough room in my rump for my skimmer and working in it - or for my canopy to have easy access to the tank.

Those were all things I assumed they would take into consideration and that is where the problem comes in - I assumed based on what is reasonable for me. Obviously we differ on that. I know that in America you have a much bigger chance to sue someone based on reasonable expectation but in this country I can promise you I would have spent 10 x the value of the whole setup before it even goes to court.

[ralphie16]

A new tank has a warranty. Even if it was delivered without a crack, a crack formed within a few days therefore they should replace it. I agree you should try to work it out with them but you said so yourself they will not replace it for free. So what do you want? They stand to lose a lot of money replacing it for free so they might not replace it for you unless you get a lawyer and sue them. Most likely they will realize they will also have to pay court costs and will lose in court so it will be in their best interests to build you a new tank.

I would also not buy another tank from them, but I think you understand that now. Do not replace the tank, get a refund.

[ralphie16]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10073619#post10073619 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr31415
The design of the tank - I am 99% sure any lawyer will laugh it off since nowhere did I state the exact design. I never said I want to have enough room in my rump for my skimmer and working in it - or for my canopy to have easy access to the tank.



The skimmer has become your problem once you decided to take home the incorrect model to your knowledge. If you did not agree to take it home then you would have rights to get your money back because they ordered the wrong skimmer. You KNEW it was incorrect and still decided to take it home. Now its your headache.

Your canopy problem I have no idea what you are talking about because I did not understand how you explained it but thats irrelevant. because your main focus is a 100% refund for the tank.

[Mr31415]

The skimmer is not a huge problem - it was part of a bigger problem that only drastic redesigning of the stand could have resolved, that is why I decided to take a bit bigger one and build a cabinet for it. It was at that stage not the biggest issue in the world so I compromised. The issue came when I had to start compromising on a daily basis - hence my frustration.

Canopy - the problem is that I cannot put my arm in the tank and move live rock around / do general maintenance since the canopy effectively adds about 100mm to the tank's height. I cannot easily remove it since you need three people and everytime you do that it scratches. All in all - they knew I wanted to have the tank standing right there but did not spend enough time considering these kind of issues to ensure the final product would be *practical* in my house.

I guess I could ask to return the tank and cabinet/canopy... It is just not so trivial - rebuilding that tank is a major undertaking.

[ralphie16]

You havent even asked for a refund yet? There is no point in talking about going to court and everything if you havent even talked to them yet to return the tank. That would be your first step. No the tank is not ok, it will leak over time, and you should get 100% of your money back. If they say no, then you take them to court. do not let them build another tank because they already messed up two.

[jbeltmann]

I agree with what Dave said. How would they feel about losing all of your business? I know I would be very unhappy about losing a whale. I know you have a relationship with the manager but I wouldn't even bother dealing with the manager, go straight to the top. If the owner gives you a hard time about making it right then cut your losses and move on. Besides livestock, what is stopping you from getting equipment online? LFS do play an important role in your success but their customer service needs to validate their increased prices. I don't think this company will be winning any JD Power Assoc. awards in the customer service area anytime soon! LOL

Best of luck in the future.

[Mr31415]

ralphie16 - Busy doing that now. I just had to get confirmation that I have grounds to ask for refund. I now believe I do.

jbeltmann - I guess my fear is that I'd like to set the relationship straight but I do NOT want another tank from then. If I ask for a refund then it is not a good path for fixing the relationship, if I don't like ralphie said - they will just botch it up again.

Maybe a compromise would be to get the proper specs from people here on ReefCentral for that tank's dimensions, and then have them build it to those specs. Their work is generally not bad but I think they are trying to cut corners trying to have good prices. If only they knew I'd gladly pay 15% more for the tank if it means a thicker base and guaranteed not to break.

[Mr31415]

"Besides livestock, what is stopping you from getting equipment online? "

We have no online shops in South Africa. I guess nothing stops me from importing from USA/Germany, the only risk would be what to do with the product's guarantee?

[HBtank]

No, the tank is not "ok". It started cracking right after you filled it. And it was the replacement for a tank that already broke.

Its the equivalent of buying a car that and the wheel coming off the first day, causing you to get in an accident, and then having the auto. company give you another car with a wheel that wobbles and saying you will be "ok"... Yeh right.

I would find someone else to deal with and walk away from them. Someone who would feel fine taking chances with that huge of a hazard and investment is not someone I want to deal with on anything. Get a refund for the tank and find another builder etc..

As for the other issues (canopy, sump etc..), well they are just crappy builders and you did not give specs, so that will be on your dime to correct.

As for keeping a relationship.. Well I would not want anything from them anyways, except maybe livestock since you do not have many LFS. It's not like they will ban you from their shop, will they? Why cares if a bunch of jerks (yes I consider someone who chances 400 gallons spilling into my house and the hazards associated, jerks) "like" you you or not, buy your fish and give them the finger as you drive away.. lol.

[plandy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074127#post10074127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr31415
the only risk would be what to do with the product's guarantee?

That's easy to answer. With all that money you've spent with this questionable dealer it did not guarantee you decent customer service you truly deserved. With two cracked tanks in a row you might as well go independent.
Again, If I were a dealer and you spent that kind of money on my business I'd ask you how high you'd want me to jump when you needed it.

[HBtank]

double post

[HBtank]

^^^ Exactly. I can only imagine all the costs of a 400 gallon tanks, and who knows what else in the future.

They are going to lose 10's of thousands of dollars in sales

[Mr31415]

HBtank - I like your view on things... ;)

plandy - and all the rest of you whole took your time responding to my little nightmare, thanks very much.

Based on all that was said, based on my own experience in the kind of people I am dealing with (and that I am only a small whale to them since they have guys with much larger tanks), I think it would be the "best" choice to go to the owner, explain my unhappiness, that since I cannot trust the tank I want a refund on the tank, stand and canopy (but I will keep the other equipment like the skimmer, chiller etc as they are fine and I need them anyway).

Then in the future buy my livestock from them, but all equipment I will order online and just take the chance with guarantees. I will visit the tank builder I mentioned and some of his customers and get feedback as to the quality of work he does. If I am convinced his work is good enough I will ask him to build me a new tank to my exact specifications and before I give him the go-ahead I will get confirmation here that everyone (that has experience in tank construction) feel comfortable with the way the tank is going to be built (glass thickness, stand construction etc.).

[REV]

It should be pretty clear to you that advice from those who do no quite understand the culture or the way things get done there (SA) is limited. Please, first consider that Americans in general are the most impatient people in the world. I applaud your tact in trying to resolve things. I'm just sorry that you may end up losing so much money. I hope the "LFS" owner will treat you right and try to keep your business.


Xikwembu a xi mi katakise. (Shangaan)

[Mr31415]

(Obviously the consequences of me taking my business elsewhere is based ont he assumption that they do not change their attitude).

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074338#post10074338 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REV
It should be pretty clear to you that advice from those who do no quite understand the culture or the way things get done there (SA) is limited. Please, first consider that Americans in general are the most impatient people in the world. I applaud your tact in trying to resolve things. I'm just sorry that you may end up losing so much money. I hope the "LFS" owner will treat you right and try to keep your business.


Xikwembu a xi mi katakise. (Shangaan)

Who here has mentioned anything about time?

This is about quality of work and customer service. If the lack of these are "the culture and the way things get done" in SA, then so be it. It does not make it right, and the fact some may not know that this is the norm does not make them "impatient" (that word makes no sense in the context of this thread)

Why you felt the need to take a general swipe at Americans and give the green light on poor craftsmanship and actually say it represents your "culture" is beyond me.

[REV]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to strike a nerve. MR31415 spoke earlier of waiting a long time, runaround notwithstanding, waiting on a piece of equipment. "Just sue 'em!" This idea that has been shared again and again to me says people aren't even willing to try to work something out, just take 'em to court! I'm sorry for seeing that as an impatient - my nicest descriptor for this attitude - approach. Any American that does not think they are impatient is the exception or self-diluted. I wasn't trying to take a general swipe at Americans. By the way, I AM AN AMERICAN! BORN AND RAISED.

My intent was to encourage Mr31415. It seems to me his approach is not some rash reaction, which is basically what many of these posts are. I REALLY did not intend to commit treason or even be controversial. Apologies.

[Mr31415]

What REV said has truth in it. Here at the south tip of Africa one of the last things we think of is suing. It just is not the same as over the big pond of water. I am not saying you are right or wrong, it is just different.

The last idea I ever had was that of suing - it is not my style. Much rather I'd like to get this issue resolved without reverting to legal action.

I'd rather spend R14k out of my own pocket and have a new tank built than spend R50k in legal costs - they are MUCH bigger than I am and I have no chance. You do not know the legal system down here...

But my intention was to hear people's opinions. Suing is one opinion.

[Mr31415]

"This is about quality of work and customer service. If the lack of these are "the culture and the way things get done" in SA, then so be it."

I think there are people here who can outcompete the best in any other country. The problem is however is a select couple of individuals making wrong decisions. Another problem is cost of importing - a problem I don't think USA has. This has the effect that you just do not find 1" glass here - thickest is 19mm and even that is rare. So people stack up lots of 10mm glass panels. And I am sure acrylic is not 4.5 times the price of glass over there...

The problem is people here assume you always want the cheapest price. Like I said before - I'd much rather spend an extra couple hundred bucks and have it done properly than cheaply. This is where the mentality of people in this country seem to be lacking - and I just don't get it.

And btw - if you want to know what is going to be ridiculously expensive is to ship a pre-built tank here...

[dwd5813]

a couple of things came to mind while reading your thread.
1. if i spent 25k in a year at a place, i wouldnt accept a pen that had blue ink when i wanted black, let alone a huge tank that cracked as soon as i put water in it. and if it was the second tank, such as in this case, i would settle for nothing short of a complete refund of everything i paid for the tank, and take my business elsewhere. i understand your situation being that competitors to this store, and therefore options for you, are limited, but honestly, i would rather not have that dream tank than have a version that is defective. any crack in your aquarium is bad news, and completely unacceptable, in my opinion.
2. regarding tank construction, you mentioned concentric circles when talking about the drilling. am i understanding correctly that this tank is made from multiple panes of glass sandwiched together to make the proper thickness? if so, this is unlike any construction i have ever heard of, and i would be interested to know if it is possible for you to locate a builder or locate material that would allow for a single pane construction, as it seems to me that this would be a much more stable design. you mentioned knowing another builder, and i would think that looking to this person is a good idea, after you deal with the original builder who has built you two faulty tanks.
3. regarding your other equipment, i agree with HB completely.



i am not familiar at all with what the norms are in SA, and i wont pretend to think that everything should be like it is in the US all over the world. however, i will say that since you asked "where do i draw the line?" i would draw it here. if it were me, i would approach the owner of the store, explain what has happened, express my frustration, and request that i be refunded my money so that i may seek another builder for my tank. it certainly sounds like this has been a good place to purchase other things, and i would remind the owner of the amount of money you have spent there. you said in one post "if only they knew i would gladly pay 15% more for the tank if it means a thicker base and guaranteed not to break" i would ask the owner if cost was responsible for this particular design, and possibly discuss cost of another design. im not into suing people either, but.....its a viable last resort in my opinion.

i wish you good luck with this, and i hope that the shop owner can see what a valuable customer he or she has in you, and takes care of you properly.

[Mr31415]

Thanks dwd5813...

[honda2sk]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10074655#post10074655 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REV
I'm sorry, I did not mean to strike a nerve. MR31415 spoke earlier of waiting a long time, runaround notwithstanding, waiting on a piece of equipment. "Just sue 'em!" This idea that has been shared again and again to me says people aren't even willing to try to work something out, just take 'em to court! I'm sorry for seeing that as an impatient - my nicest descriptor for this attitude - approach. Any American that does not think they are impatient is the exception or self-diluted. I wasn't trying to take a general swipe at Americans. By the way, I AM AN AMERICAN! BORN AND RAISED.

My intent was to encourage Mr31415. It seems to me his approach is not some rash reaction, which is basically what many of these posts are. I REALLY did not intend to commit treason or even be controversial. Apologies.

You apparently do not see the difference between being a pushover and being impatient. If you read the thread carefully you will realize that he was being taken advantage of and the owner said the crack was no problem.

Therefore legal action is the only route left.

You sir seem like an *******.

[REV]

That is very helpful.

[REV]

Look. I was not trying to start something here. Give the guy advice.

[Mr31415]

Just a quick update for those interested.

I contacted the owner today and mentioned the most important issues that bothered me. Here is his response:

1) Scratches on my front door - he will send out people to take down door, sand it down and re varnish it.

2) Canopy overpriced and not practical for working in the tank - he will redesign it so that I can have easy access to work in my tank - at their cost.

3) Missing corner strips for tank - he will make them

4) Crack in tank - due to various reasons we agreed that if that tank should break he would cover my expenses and sort things out.

I guess for now (provided he actually does what he says he will) things are sorted...

[TriniStylez]

I have been following this post and I feel really bad for you. Sounds like you have had some bad luck! Hope things get better...

I am from the Caribbean but have lived in the US and now Canada and I think I understand why suing would not be a "real" option. Out of those three countries I have lived in, the US is the only place I have heard of people suing over EVERYTHING. I was amazed. Not saying it is right or wrong but Im guessing SA is much more like the Caribbean or even Canada where you really just have to work things out without lawyers.

Anyways, good luck!

[Mr31415]

Thanks TriniStylez...

Yeah here people rarely sue. Companies sue each other but individuals rarely. I guess part of the reason is choice - in the US there are such a huge choice of vendors that it does not matter if you sue one and then go to the other - here if you sue one you have only one or two left!