Closed Loop vs. Vortech Propeller Pumps

[Albright]

Hi everyone. I'm in the very beginning stages of researching and planning a fairly large (300g-500g) reef system in which I hope to house a variety of corals (soft as well as LPS and SPS) as well as a variety of fish and inverts.

I was planning on doing a closed loop system using oceans motions to distribute the flow when I came across the Vortech pumps ( http://www.ecotechmarine.com/products/vortech.htm )

Would I be silly to use these pumps on a system where I have no problem setting up a closed loop? Is there any advantage to the closed loop or the Vortechs that anyone has run into vs. the other option?

Am I possibly way off base and I should be using a mix of both for one reason rather than one or the other?

And for my stupid question of the day... I notice many closed loop systems originate from bulkheads on the rear wall of the aquarium rather than from an overflow. Is there a danger of fish/inverts/etc. being drawn into these openings with the amount of suction going on? If so, what is typically done to prevent this.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated! As mention I'm in the very beginning stages of planning this and I'm doing a lot of research prior rather than making a lot of mistakes along the way. But I'm sure I'll still make many!

I hope to detail the build of this system here as well as on its own web page once it begins which will certainly be at least a couple of months from now.

[silverwolf72]

Cl vs vortec is mainly visual( do you want power heads in tank).Plus the Vortec pumps are not aimable.
Screens to keep fish from getting sucked up on CL. Overflows will not generally have the room or the ability to handle the flow of a closed loop.
I love the OM unit I have even though my tank is still empty but from the flow I've seen it gives me tons of random water flow

[Albright]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10069729#post10069729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by silverwolf72
Cl vs vortec is mainly visual( do you want power heads in tank).Plus the Vortec pumps are not aimable.
Screens to keep fish from getting sucked up on CL. Overflows will not generally have the room or the ability to handle the flow of a closed loop.
I love the OM unit I have even though my tank is still empty but from the flow I've seen it gives me tons of random water flow

Thanks SilverWolf.

It sounds like you would go for the CL over the Vortechs and I think I may be still leaning that way also.

Thanks for answering the stupid question also :)

[DaveG99]

you should also consider noise, heat from the pumps, and possabilities to have leaks problems. Withe the vortech there is little noise, no heat generated, and no plumbing to have a possability of leaks and issues not to mention taking up room under the stand.

[nyvp]

vortecs and powerheads are always much more efficient

[Albright]

Space definitely won't be an issue. Heat shouldn't be as a chiller won't be a problem and will most likely be included regardless. Leaks of course would always be a headache.

When you say more efficient, in what way do you mean? Power consumption?

[davefan13]

with poweheads you will be able to direct water flow in the direction that you want with ease. With closed loops, on the other hand, have many different flaws. First, do you plan to have the returns from the back of the tank or from over the top? in both instances, the outlets furthest from the pump will have a somewhat low return rate becuase the water will drop off into the first outlets. (if you are using an oceans motions, this may eliminate that problem, but i don't have any experience with them). For powerheads, the vortechs are driven magnetically from the outside of the tank, virtually eliminating heat coming from powerheads. Also, with powerheads, you can aim them in the direction that you want your flow to go, and it will be there. With a closed loop, on the other hand can't be aimed up/down as easily.

hope this helps. also, those vortechs are like 300 ea, i am guessing that you are not sparing any expense on this system :D

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10070925#post10070925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Albright
Space definitely won't be an issue. Heat shouldn't be as a chiller won't be a problem and will most likely be included regardless. Leaks of course would always be a headache.

When you say more efficient, in what way do you mean? Power consumption?

A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

[hatfielj]

I agree with richconley in that the electrical costs of a vortech vs. a CL is a big plus for the vortechs. Plus, all the plumbing necessary for a CL is quite a headache and a potential area for leaks. Vortechs are awesome pumps and look much better than a bunch of pvc or locline hanging down in the tank IMO. I have a vortech and I don't think you can beat the flow it offers for the price and ease of setting up. And again, very little heat added to the tank and much lower electrical consumption.

[mope54]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10071674#post10071674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

But calculate that dart with some eductors and see how much closer the power consumption becomes

[Albright]

Thanks for keeping the feedback coming. The two sides sound like what is going on in my head :)

I'm still leaning towards the CL. I feel it will provide a bit more flexibility of getting the flow to where I want it especially with the OM.

The sump/primary filtration/skimming/etc. will be located in the basement so this would leave only the closed loop plumbing/pump underneath the display tank itself. I would still dread a leak but it should make working with it a fair amount easier than in a system where everything is contained directly under the tank. I have seen some here tho which are all underneath and very neatly laid out :)

As this will be very near to a wall and only viewable from the front I'm thinking of having both the input and the output of the CL in the bottom of the tank. The returns would mostly be within and poking out of the LR structures.

[xtrstangx]

When you do the cost caulculations on the closed loop, don't forget the union ball valves that you are supposed to have on every bulkhead. When I was planning my setup I would've ended up paying more for plumbing pieces than I would for the pump!

I'd go for good pumps (Vortechs or Tunze Streams)... Thats what I did and I'm really glad I did. I love my Tunze Streams, the multicontroller rocks and they are more adjustable than the Vortechs.

[DaveG99]

vortech/tunze benefits..........


better looks
efficiency
easier to set up
least likely to have leaks
no hole drilling
quieter

the choice should be simple.

[pledosophy]

I prefer the closed loop. I have it plumbed so I can change flow pattern through the turn of a bulkhead. I have spraybars under the rocks and through the back wall. Having the option to change the flow paterns so easily is a huge plus for me. I also like that all the returns from the closed loop are fairly hidden, except for one of the loc line returns toward the top of the tank, so I don't have to look at the powerheads.

My CL pump only uses 50w, but also only pushes around 1000 gph.

HTH

[King-Kong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10071674#post10071674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
...Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

Are you serious? Are you actually suggesting that the FRICTION of the water on surfaces inside of the tank adds enough heat that we would actually notice?

Come on Rich.. that's just being silly, now.

[Kaiser Tang]

I actually use both. I wanted to do something with my return line, so I hooked it up to a OM. But I needed and little more flow so I added two vortechs. I'll be doing real good when the vortechs become controllable.

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10071674#post10071674 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
A 3600 gph sequence dart uses 160w. A 3000+ gph tunze/vortech uses about 30w. Thats a TON of electricity difference.

At $.15/kwh, we're talking like $15/month saved PER PUMP.


As to heat, the vortechs add very little to your tank, but the whole "add none" thing is bull. Anything that moves water creates heat via friction.

LMAO, you gotta be kidding. Next you will be telling us to calculate the friction of fish swimming.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10073426#post10073426 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by King-Kong
Are you serious? Are you actually suggesting that the FRICTION of the water on surfaces inside of the tank adds enough heat that we would actually notice?

Come on Rich.. that's just being silly, now.


A tunze 6060 moves 1800 gph for what, 11w?

How much is motor inefficiency? Maybe 3w? So that leaves us with 8w that is moving water. So 8 watts goes into ACCELERATING water. You know what slows down that water, so that your tank doesnt accelerate to the point that the water all hops out? Friction. So yeah, if you've got 8w of pump moving water, you've got 8w of friction heat.


Yes, friction can be a LARGE part of pump heat.


Edit: Just did some research. DC motors run from 50%-90% efficient. So in your 30w Tunze, from 3-15w is directly wasted as heat. The rest become water movement, which is then converted, via friction, to heat. So, from 15-27w of HEAT is added to the tank via friction.

With the Vortech, its listed as 35w. I'd assume, say, 40% effiency (less because its through glass), so we're still talking about 14w being lost as heat, via friction, IN THE TANK.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10072001#post10072001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mope54
But calculate that dart with some eductors and see how much closer the power consumption becomes


Not even close.

160w of dart, for 3000gph.

Put eductors on it, you get what, 5000gph? (its NOT a pressure pump, and can't properly drive eductors)


For 160w, we can run 2x Tunze 6200, and 1x 6100, for a total of 14000 gph.

[mope54]

well, I did space it on the dart not being pressure rated, but other pumps that are pressure rated do exist...

but given that you're sig lists a 58g and the OP's tank is a 40 gallon, it seems to me that if you put three full sized tunzes in your tank you wouldn't have any space left for rock or corals :O

but he's looking at a 300g-500g tank...so maybe he wants raw power

this kind of argument starts to sound like my older 3er bmw against the american muscle cars...which kind of power is one looking for?


once you get up into the really large sequence pumps, some of whic are pressure rated, putting out 5K+ gph for 300+ watts, and you put the ends on eductors that are estimated to move 5x+ the flow...

well then you are moving near 30K GPH in the tank and to match that you'd need at least 5 6200's. which would also be right around 300+ watts, and a pile of space...so once you go really large it seems like the efficiency of PH's break down

[samsfishnchips]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10077122#post10077122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Not even close.

160w of dart, for 3000gph.

Put eductors on it, you get what, 5000gph? (its NOT a pressure pump, and can't properly drive eductors)


For 160w, we can run 2x Tunze 6200, and 1x 6100, for a total of 14000 gph.

Rich,

I think he meant, that by putting penductors, you increase head pressure therefore less watts used by the pump

and do agree, all pumps add watts to the tank, others more than others but the fact is that all add some

sam

[Timbo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10077095#post10077095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley

Edit: Just did some research. DC motors run from 50%-90% efficient. So in your 30w Tunze, from 3-15w is directly wasted as heat. The rest become water movement, which is then converted, via friction, to heat. So, from 15-27w of HEAT is added to the tank via friction.

With the Vortech, its listed as 35w. I'd assume, say, 40% effiency (less because its through glass), so we're still talking about 14w being lost as heat, via friction, IN THE TANK.

You are correct, the average BRUSHLESS DC motor will be approximately 50% efficient or greater at turning input power into output power. The input power which is not converted into output power is shed as heat. However, power is power, whether shed directly as heat or converted into mechanical motion, a watt introduced into your tank from a powerhead is no different than a watt introduced into your tank from a heater.

A VorTech is actually more efficient than a 6100 in terms of the flow produced compared to the wattage consumed, as it uses ~32watts and generates 3000gph versus a Stream 6100 which consumes 45watts and produces 3100gph.

With a VorTech, the motor is outside the tank, meaning the energy shed directly from the motor as a result of inefficiencies is outside the tank. If the VorTech is 50% efficient and consumes 32 watts, that means that 16watts shed as HEAT is outside the tank. The rest of the wattage used as mechanical motion is found within the motor and within the wetted side of the VorTech. So it would be comparable to a completely submersed 16watt power head which produced 3000gph. Good look finding one of those.

A 6100 Stream inputs ALL 45watts into the tank. Period, whether its converted as flow or heat, any powerhead inputs ALL of its input wattage into the aquarium. Some are just better at converting more of that wattage into flow meaning you get more flow per watt that you input.

Let me say it again, a 20 watt powerhead is no different than a 20watt heater, it doesn't matter whether its a prop pump or an impeller pump. The exception being a VorTech, because the motor is outside the tank it will input approximately half of the power into your aquarium that a fully submersed pump will.

[sabbath]

If you would like to see how much heat an external pump makes, You can. Take one and run it with as little hose as you can, like maybe 1.5' Filled with water and come back in an hour or so and feel the hose. It gets warm or hot depending on pump size.
Power heads gets hot too. I heat my salt mix this way.

[RichConley]

Timbo, thats exactly my point.


The claims that the vortech adds no heat are absolute crap. Less heat than a Tunze, yes, but not even close to "none"

[Timbo]

Glad we agree on something!

But from any of the posts I've ever seen you make, you never actually acknowledge that a VorTech is actually inputting substantially less heat than a 6100. You always make it sound moot. 15w versus 45w is closer to a third of the heat input of a 6100.

Also, I quote this from EcoTech's webpage:

"The VorTech induces very little heat into the aquarium because of EcoTech Marine's patent pending magnetically coupled design which transfers motion through the glass, but not heat"

Doesn't sound like ETM is claiming it induces no heat.

[steve the plumb]

I was also looking into a closed loop but when you look at cost of pump,plumbing, wattage,and drilling its cheaper to go with powerheads.I didn't want the hassle of having pumps in the tank.I find the closed loop can be hidden witch will make for a nicer look but on my new 300 gal I am planning on going with koralia #4 I figure 6 of them will put out alot of flow plus very low wattage.I will also get a seio controller to switch up the flow

[jmkins]

Yes, friction can be a LARGE part of pump heat.


Edit: Just did some research. DC motors run from 50%-90% efficient. So in your 30w Tunze, from 3-15w is directly wasted as heat. The rest become water movement, which is then converted, via friction, to heat. So, from 15-27w of HEAT is added to the tank via friction.

With the Vortech, its listed as 35w. I'd assume, say, 40% effiency (less because its through glass), so we're still talking about 14w being lost as heat, via friction, IN THE TANK. [/B]


I dont own a large tank yet, but have been watching the flow technology progress over the past few years and would at this point go with powerheads. I agreed with your first post, but there are some problems with your thinking on this one.

The 60% loss (or 18 W) would occur outside the tank; you know where the motor is. I have no idea were you coming up with the in tank loss as up to 14W as the coefficient of friction of PTFE (likely the coating on the magnet) is almost negligible at the rpms used to push 3000 gph. At least in the size tanks that are being asked about. If you had a 1g tank that you wanted to cool to absolute zero it might be a different story. This arguement is pointless and off topic since a closed loop pump operating at over 3x the power is likely to produce much more heat than any of the power heads that you can find in this gph range.

Personally I would look at the tunzes, vortechs, and possibly the seio polario's which are expected later in the year last I heard. I wish that I had more info on the polario but they seem to able to move a gigantic amount of water at low energy according to manufacturers specs.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079386#post10079386 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmkins
I dont own a large tank yet, but have been watching the flow technology progress over the past few years and would at this point go with powerheads. I agreed with your first post, but there are some problems with your thinking on this one.

The 60% loss (or 18 W) would occur outside the tank; you know where the motor is. I have no idea were you coming up with the in tank loss as up to 14W as the coefficient of friction of PTFE (likely the coating on the magnet) is almost negligible at the rpms used to push 3000 gph. At least in the size tanks that are being asked about. If you had a 1g tank that you wanted to cool to absolute zero it might be a different story. This arguement is pointless and off topic since a closed loop pump operating at over 3x the power is likely to produce much more heat than any of the power heads that you can find in this gph range.

Personally I would look at the tunzes, vortechs, and possibly the seio polario's which are expected later in the year last I heard. I wish that I had more info on the polario but they seem to able to move a gigantic amount of water at low energy according to manufacturers specs.

I'm not talking about friction with the magnet. I'm talking about the friction from the hundreds of pounds of water slowing down.

This is simple thermodynamics. If the water is getting sped up, and not reaching the speed of light, some equal force is slowing it down. That force is friction. If 10w is being used to accelerate the water, with a 100% efficient pump, 10w of heat will be released by the water slowing down. This is simple conservation of energy.

[jmkins]

If your arguing the fluid dynamics of the water movement, can you provide a way to circumvent this?

Yes internal currents have to fight a frictional coefficient which produces heat, but how can that from a powerhead be different from that of a closed loop? 3000 gph from a closed loop produces the same heat loss as 3000 gph from a powerhead in that regards.

This doesn't even make sense anymore. No matter how you produce the flow you loss the same inside the tank due to frictional force. The selling point of the vortech is that you dont add additional wasted energy from a motor (its on the outside of the tank and losses heat to the air not to tank water). The added energy from the motor loss is much more significant than the frictional forces of water on a magnetic stir bar (see my original post). So 0.02 degrees in frictional force from water or 2 degrees from wasted mechanical energy which is what makes or breaks a successful tank?

[pledosophy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079446#post10079446 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley


This is simple thermodynamics. If the water is getting sped up, and not reaching the speed of light, some equal force is slowing it down. That force is friction. If 10w is being used to accelerate the water, with a 100% efficient pump, 10w of heat will be released by the water slowing down. This is simple conservation of energy.

The same would apply to closed loops or powerheads. They both move water.

I'm sorry but I don't get your point. Trying to understand. :)

[HippieSmell]

I would go for the vortechs. I've built two tanks, both with closed loops, then I added stream style pumps in my current tank and it's great. I'll never go back to closed loops.

As far as heat goes, I thought the only thing that matters is the wattage of the pump. Watts are watts and energy is energy, you know? Heat is simply movement, more efficient pumps move more water in the same direction, and less efficient pumps create more random "heat movement".

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079560#post10079560 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pledosophy
The same would apply to closed loops or powerheads. They both move water.

I'm sorry but I don't get your point. Trying to understand. :)

My point is that this claim that: "Vortech adds no heat" is crap. Its 100% false.

Yes, theyre efficient, but (heatwise) not all that much more than a tunze, or a maximod.

Theres a big difference between 15 vs 30, and 0 vs 30.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079580#post10079580 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell

As far as heat goes, I thought the only thing that matters is the wattage of the pump. Watts are watts and energy is energy, you know? Heat is simply movement, more efficient pumps move more water in the same direction, and less efficient pumps create more random "heat movement".

For submersible pumps, yes. For pumps with external motors, its a little different, but theres no such thing as a pump that moves water and imparts no heat.

Externals save you the heat that gets vented to the air, the rest of the energy still gets transferred to the tank.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079522#post10079522 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmkins
So 0.02 degrees in frictional force from water or 2 degrees from wasted mechanical energy which is what makes or breaks a successful tank?

Again, you're missing the point. My point is that its not that big of a difference.

Again, the vortech is imparting about 15w of heat to the tank, the tunze 30. Yes, theres a difference, but theres no way in heck that if 15w only raises your temp .02 degrees, that 30w will raise it 2 degrees.

[jmkins]

your missing the point of the whole design, the vortech motor (15W is outside the tank). The internal heat loss is the same with any other powerhead that provides that magnitude of water movement.

The motor is the inefficient part of any mechanical device. The vortech motor is OUTSIDE the tank. That means that any wasted energy of motor ineffieciency is to the outside of the tank not the inside. I have no idea how your coming up with your 15W figures inside the tank. The coeffiecient of friction from the internal portion of the vortech is minimal and heat is produced from drag sure, but this in no more than any INTERNAL powerhead (which also has this plus the motor inefficiencies).

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079639#post10079639 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmkins
your missing the point of the whole design, the vortech motor (15W is outside the tank). The internal heat loss is the same with any other powerhead that provides that magnitude of water movement.

The motor is the inefficient part of any mechanical device. The vortech motor is OUTSIDE the tank. That means that any wasted energy of motor ineffieciency is to the outside of the tank not the inside. I have no idea how your coming up with your 15W figures inside the tank. The coeffiecient of friction from the internal portion of the vortech is minimal and heat is produced from drag sure, but this in no more than any INTERNAL powerhead (which also has this plus the motor inefficiencies).

how do you not understand the 15w part?

If the pump uses 35w, and is 40% efficient, then 21w is released as heat, OUTSIDE the tank. 14w is used to push water. All of that water will come to a stop if the pump is turned off, because of friction, so ALL 14w that is being used to move water will then be converted back into heat, VIA friction. Its as simple as it gets.


Look, I'm not saying the vortech isnt better from a heat perspective. What I'm saying is this "zero heat" bull is exactly that, bull.


I understand the point of the vortech motor, and its a nice idea, but people need to stop making up this crap that they add "NO HEAT". Yes, they add less heat than a tunze, etc, but its still in the range of 50% or so, not 0.

[jmkins]

Either way I have no intention of arguing you on this. The point of the thread was which option was going to be better suited in the OPs application. This is way off topic and obviously pointless as your arguing on principle about single digit wattage loss from a powerhead versus double digit wattage from a CL.

Back on topic:

You could have the best of both worlds by combining the two. Find a well designed CL to supplement the use of which ever powerheads you choose (or vice versa).

In this hobby your better off researching and buying once vs buying two or three times.

[LobsterOfJustice]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10077953#post10077953 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Timbo
With a VorTech, the motor is outside the tank, meaning the energy shed directly from the motor as a result of inefficiencies is outside the tank. If the VorTech is 50% efficient and consumes 32 watts, that means that 16watts shed as HEAT is outside the tank.

A 6100 Stream inputs ALL 45watts into the tank. Period, whether its converted as flow or heat, any powerhead inputs ALL of its input wattage into the aquarium.

I think you are forgetting something. Tunzes dont just have a power cord that plugs into the wall, do they? No, they have a cord that goes to an external driver, and then to some other black cylinder. The fact that this cylinder gets warm proves that tunzes, like vortechs, do not shed all their heat into the aquarium. They have external controls, electronics, converters, and drivers.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10079676#post10079676 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmkins
Either way I have no intention of arguing you on this. The point of the thread was which option was going to be better suited in the OPs application. This is way off topic and obviously pointless as your arguing on principle about single digit wattage loss from a powerhead versus double digit wattage from a CL.


HOLY CRAP.

Go back an read my posts. At no point was I EVER arguing about anything even related to a Closed Loop. Every point has been about the claim that one of the posters made earlier that the Vortech "puts not heat in the tank", which is abjectly false.

You're arguing against points that I've never made.

[jacmyoung]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10080929#post10080929 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I think you are forgetting something. Tunzes dont just have a power cord that plugs into the wall, do they? No, they have a cord that goes to an external driver, and then to some other black cylinder. The fact that this cylinder gets warm proves that tunzes, like vortechs, do not shed all their heat into the aquarium. They have external controls, electronics, converters, and drivers.

I was going to say the same thing. The old style Tunze Streams have most all parts outside of the tank, only the last motor part and the propeller unit in the tank, so a lot of the heat is outside. But the Vortech takes it a step further, even the motor part is on the outside of the tank.

But compared to a pump used on a CL, the prop pumps will add much less heat for the same amount of flow. Even if you don't mind the added heat and the extra electrical usage, one should consider the multiple holes drilled on the tank and more chances for leak and other issues.

[RichConley]

I had forgot about that, which makes the heat between a vortech and a Tunze even closer.

We're probably talking 10w of heat difference here.



As regards to CLs, yeah, prop pumps, IMO, are superior.


Everyone always talks about how streams are ugly, but I think theyre a lot nicer than having loc-line sticking all over the place. I hate loc-line.

[burton14e7]

I'm kinda lost on something here and maybe you guys can help. Are we stating that 14w of friction heat is being transferred to the inside of the tank or that the friction of water is equal to 14w. The prop inside the tank is being driven by magnetic fields, not a drive shaft, which is for intents and purposes frictionless. Particles in the field are colliding with each other I guess but not really measurable. Is motor inefficiency transferred via magnetic fields or is all motor inefficiency being transferred into the air outside the tank and the glass of the tank? I think water friction would be a lot less than measurable to 14w.

[useskaforevil]

wow you guys pay $0.15 a KWh? i pay about a third of that.

[burton14e7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10082643#post10082643 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by useskaforevil
wow you guys pay $0.15 a KWh? i pay about a third of that.

^^ Yay for California cost of living. I pay for a room what people pay for their mortgage and then utilities and gas are more expensive too. Make more than the median salary of an American but can't afford to live on my own here and don't qualify for a lot of financial aide programs because of it :( The government loves single males in california. No tax shelter and makes a good chunk of change to steal from.

[jacmyoung]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10082634#post10082634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burton14e7
... I think water friction would be a lot less than measurable to 14w.

I agree in open flow water friction (compared to friction in the pipes and valves) is not significant, but simply move 3,000 gallons of water from one place to another in one hour takes energy. I don't know if any of our resident experts can tell us (with certain assumptions made of course) how much energy does it need to pump say 3,000 gph in a typical propeller pump situation, only then will we able to know the true efficiency of each pump.

I don't want to take the manufactures' efficiency numbers seriously at this point, those numbers may not even apply to what we are discussing here. Most pump efficiency numbers have to do with water delivery through pipes.

[Nirvana]

I am going with the vortex pumps because unlike a closed loop they are not permenent and they have no chances to leak. Even though they are expensive they can be moved all over the tank and plus since its magnetic you only see the propeller part and not the motor thats on the other side.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10083140#post10083140 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by burton14e7
^^ Yay for California cost of living. I pay for a room what people pay for their mortgage and then utilities and gas are more expensive too. Make more than the median salary of an American but can't afford to live on my own here and don't qualify for a lot of financial aide programs because of it :( The government loves single males in california. No tax shelter and makes a good chunk of change to steal from.

I dont want to hear it from you CA people. I spent last week out there... its way cheaper than MA.

We pay $.22 for electricity.





Jmacyoung:

Think about it this way: In a frictionless world, if I pushed an object, it would slide forever. It would accelerate while force was being applied, and then as soon as force was removed, it would reach a constant velocity, and stay at that velocity.

In a world with friction, If i push an object, it will begin to slow down as soon as I stop applying force. When it comes to a stop, the net kinetic energy I applied is EQUAL to the net energy lost to friction. My force accelerated the object, friction decelerated it.

In the case of a pump, there is constant force being applied, but the water comes to an equilibrium quite quickly. It does not continue to accelerate towards the speed of light. When it reaches equilibrium, that means that the force being applied by the pump is equal to the force lost by friction. IE, if the pump is using 15w to move water, 15w is being lost to heat via friction. Otherwise, the water would continue to accelerate infinitely.

[steve the plumb]

the only thing I don't like about the vortec is that you can't point them you are stuck with a straight flow.I like the fact that they are not as bulky as the korilia #4

[jacmyoung]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10083672#post10083672 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I dont want to hear it from you CA people. I spent last week out there... its way cheaper than MA.

We pay $.22 for electricity.





Jmacyoung:

Think about it this way: In a frictionless world, if I pushed an object, it would slide forever. It would accelerate while force was being applied, and then as soon as force was removed, it would reach a constant velocity, and stay at that velocity.

In a world with friction, If i push an object, it will begin to slow down as soon as I stop applying force. When it comes to a stop, the net kinetic energy I applied is EQUAL to the net energy lost to friction. My force accelerated the object, friction decelerated it.

In the case of a pump, there is constant force being applied, but the water comes to an equilibrium quite quickly. It does not continue to accelerate towards the speed of light. When it reaches equilibrium, that means that the force being applied by the pump is equal to the force lost by friction. IE, if the pump is using 15w to move water, 15w is being lost to heat via friction. Otherwise, the water would continue to accelerate infinitely.

I am not questioning your approach here, rather that I don't know where those pump efficiency numbers came from. Friction can be quantified in a pipe flow in terms of head loss, and maybe that was how the manufactures got their numbers but not to be used in our situation.

How do you determine friction in an open flow anyway? And of course the flow we are talking about in our prop pump situation is not delivered uniformly, some of it reaches 4' away, some gets only 6" and stopped. In the case of the K4 pump, you pretty much have four streams radiating out of the four openings of the cross bar. The one ends up shooting upward will have a very different characteristics than the one shooting down.

So without a clear answer I think I tend to agree with the others it makes little sense to argue about friction and how much heat they cause, as long as we know the Vortech's are likely adding the least heat to the tank, the Tunze DC pumps a little more, the K4s (motor and electronics all in the tank) probably add a little further more, and a big CL pump a lot more, for the same flow.

[sabbath]

I'm just curious the vortech motor is pressed to the side of the glass. Wouldn't this transfer some of the heat to the tank?

[Albright]

You guys are passionate :)

I have a feeling I may wind up with the closed loop as I will not have access to the back side of the aquarium. This would leave only the sides (which may wind up with the overflows) for the placement of the pumps and I worry about not being able to aim them properly and having very little control over where the flow is directed.

[Albright]

I picked up a Vortech pump to play with in my 40g figuring I can always transition it to the larger tank with or without the CL. I am really liking how it works. Very simple to setup. Great random looking flow turned all the way down (500gph) although in a small tank. Turned up it gets to be very hectic in there.

I know they are going to be releasing a "wavemaker" type device soon for these. If the wavemaker adjusts the flow rate rather than just alternating on/off I think it will push me to the Vortechs as opposed to the CL. I feel the random up and down of intensity will create a more natural random motion within the tank than the CL at a steady rate pointed in the same direction constantly will make.

[Benny Z]

i currently have 2 penductors driven by a pcx-55 return pump and also a dart closed-loop.

that's 170w + 160w = 330w (and a lot of heat)

i'm ditching both in favor of a mag7 return pump, 2 vortechs, and a wavebox.

that's 70 + 35 + 35 + 45 (actually, only 1/2 that due to the on/off cycles, but i'll give you that) = 185w (and a lot less heat)

...and more/better flow, to boot. ...and battery backup as an option.

[Bax]

Wow, talk about a subject that draws an opinion out folks ... yikes!

Any way FWIW, I have used CLs, on my last 75 g I had two CLs, then I got a VorTech lost one CL and then a Tunze. I did this as Albright did, just to play with flow.

Electrical consumption and heat transfer aside, I like the synergy you can get from utilizing different systems.

In my current 120, I don't use a CL because of a variety of issues, I do use a VorTech and a pair of Tunze 6100s .... love this flow for this tank. I am up to about 65 x turnover and I don't think anything is cranked all the way except one Tunze on one pulse setting.

FWIW, when I do finally set up my 260ish tank, I'll be running a CL on a Dart, at least one maybe two VorTechs and 3 to 4 Tunzes. I think the VorTech's have a broader flow by far than the Tunzes, but they play well together, and there is always that one spot that will benefit from a good blast of old fashioned laminar flow from a CL.

In short, IMO, the bigger the tank, the more, and more flexible sources of flow, the better.

Good luck with your project Albright

[Albright]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10128850#post10128850 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bax
Wow, talk about a subject that draws an opinion out folks ... yikes!

Any way FWIW, I have used CLs, on my last 75 g I had two CLs, then I got a VorTech lost one CL and then a Tunze. I did this as Albright did, just to play with flow.

Electrical consumption and heat transfer aside, I like the synergy you can get from utilizing different systems.

In my current 120, I don't use a CL because of a variety of issues, I do use a VorTech and a pair of Tunze 6100s .... love this flow for this tank. I am up to about 65 x turnover and I don't think anything is cranked all the way except one Tunze on one pulse setting.

FWIW, when I do finally set up my 260ish tank, I'll be running a CL on a Dart, at least one maybe two VorTechs and 3 to 4 Tunzes. I think the VorTech's have a broader flow by far than the Tunzes, but they play well together, and there is always that one spot that will benefit from a good blast of old fashioned laminar flow from a CL.

In short, IMO, the bigger the tank, the more, and more flexible sources of flow, the better.

Good luck with your project Albright

Thanks for the feedback. In the end I will probably wind up with a combination as you mentioned.

Where in NJ are you?

[rbursek]

WOW, what a topic!!!!! Don G great point at the end, if there is an end to this one. All engineers!!!!!!!!! My observation on this one is who cares, we will not need heaters after this one. You take any centrifugal pump, close of the water supply/discharge, and you are going to get steam in that pump cavity in about 10 minutes. Friction is friction, but it cuts down on heater usage!!!!! LOL.
Bob

[rbursek]

Forgot to say, never did a CL, but run Hydor, love them and for giggles I can change the angle on them,to just change things up for the tank, run them on a wave maker. My "friend" who got me into this money eating hobby, runs 2 Vortechs, great flow but since they are not adjustable in there direction, just volume. And yes there are supposed to come out with a Wave maker machine. I can buy 8 Hydor for 1 Vortech!!!! I do agree in a large system, it would be best to have multiple systems, nothing is perfect, except in the ocean before oil spills.Bob

[sabbath]

Thanks for the reply Bob. Good points. I think that this has been a very informative debate on different types of flow systems.

[woz9683]

I'd plan on a combination too Albright. Like many have said closed loops are great because you get a lot of raw water movement with almost no space taken up in the tank. They're also fairly flexible as long as you have some loc-line in the tank. But they can be limiting also because you generally drill the outlets into the bottom or back of your tank (and you don't want loc-line snaking around the inside of your tank).

Vortech / Tunze are great because of the low wattage, dispersed flow, and ability to move them greater distances to get to parts of the tank that are difficult to reach with closed loop outlets.

One thing that can make a closed loop more flexible is if you have an in-wall system you can put outlets on the sides of the tank as well as the back and bottom.

And a final note from me. The leaking problem with a closed loop is 99.9% human error. If you install good bulkheads correctly and use all the plumbing you're supposed to (true union ball valves, etc.) and know how to use pvc cement then the chances of having a leak you can't fix are so minute it's not even worth worrying about.

[rbursek]

Don.
thanks again for the IeSpell hook up. More need to know about it.
Even tho Ispell and Spell check have made me worse, lazy.
Bob

[jacmyoung]

I just want to inject my perspective on this issue.

It is easier to just slap a 500W pump on your CL system and it will guarantee that you will get flow in every corner of the tank, but this hobby is also about skill, precision and balance, in addition to viewing pleasure.

To me that means a sense of pride when you can achieve the same results with the least amount of energy used, because energy efficiency is not just about cost saving (in fact more efficient products tend to cost more to buy), but about advance in technology, research and implementation, not only at the manufacture level but at the hobbyist level.

I know your pretty much bored to death by now so thank you for listening:)

[lukinrats]

would a closed loop with a single pump, use less/same energy, and create less/same heat than 2 - 3 vortechs/tunze

Dont know, but I would have to wonder about it... I plan on putting a closed loop for the following reasons

#1-- vortech costs $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4
#2-- I would need 2 or more of them to create random flow
** I know a single vortech can put out a lot of flow, but in
one direction... Right?**
#3-- Save space, and make things look better

These are all good enough reasons for me... I cannot justify buying 2-3 vortechs @ $400 a pop

Later,