Fragmag...........black stuff growing up through coral

[flyyyguy]

Ok......first off.........Im not making any accusations at this point. Im just running this by you all and want to hear your thoughts.

But I AM more than a little bit curious as to how a thick mass of shiny black stuff nearly as thick as the coral itself has leached out of a Aqua-Mags frag mag, and been sucked up more than an inch into the colony as it grows.

This acro in question outgrew the frag mag about 6 months ago as it simply was too big for the frag mag to support it off the wall. Being as it was completely encrusted around the Frag-mag base, I just left the sealed magnet inside the base of the colony and put it in the main reef. At the time it was 5" tall with 25 or so branches.........since then it has grown to 6" tall with about 75 arms. It was about a month or so ago, I noticed it had just stopped growing and browned out. The deep purple color that was typical of the majority of the branches dwindled to just a very light purple at t he tips...and was still losing ground. There was no necrosis of any kind, and besides the color, the coral appears healthy.

Anyway........... today I decided to cut the majority of the coral off of the base and was very surprised at what I found.

FYI- I took my dremel tool and cut above the entire frag mag. I only cut through coral.

The first pic is of the frag mag base and encrustment that I cut off.

The second pic is a bottom shot of the base of the colony I jsut cut off. I took a small screwdriver and a razor and could chip the shiny black stuff out. I wanted to see how far up into the colony the black actually goes. It isnt as solid up inside....but there are many paths of it. In a couple places I had the screwdriver almost 3/4" up inside and the black kept going. I stopped digging at that point.

What do you think it is???

I already decided to just dispose of the encrusted part over the frag mag. I covered/sealed the bottom of the colony off with paleo bond......at least 1/4" thick in all places, and I am concerned about putting it back in the tank if indeed this is some kind of a magnet leak.

Thoughts on what exactly this black stuff is and what I should do appreciated.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h181/flyyyguy/lifts/fragmag2.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h181/flyyyguy/lifts/fragmag1.jpg

[RobSW1]

that is crazy i have never seen anything like that.....so do you think this has something to do with the frag mag?

hope someone else chimes in becuase i am really interested.

[flyyyguy]

I think it has soemthing to do with either the magnet or the black epoxy that is used.

I have made a bunch of homemade frag mags, and never seen this happen. On my homemade ones, i seal the magnet in between two pieces of acrylic, so there is no way it will leak.

Ive seen phosphates wick up into a coral skeleton before from phosphate laden rock.............but nothing like this.

[flyyyguy]

I think it has soemthing to do with either the magnet or the black epoxy that is used.

I have made a bunch of homemade frag mags, and never seen this happen. On my homemade ones, i seal the magnet in between two pieces of acrylic, so there is no way it will leak.

Ive seen phosphates wick up into a coral skeleton before from phosphate laden rock.............but nothing like this.

[DarkXerox]

I still have this dead montipora skeleton that we bought back in the old days for the FO tank and looking at the bottom, I could see that the colony had grown onto a piece of black igneous(lava) rock. It kind of looks like that, but I assume your coral was grown onto epoxy.

[JMBoehling]

Take a dremel to a piece of Live Rock and look inside.. Black tar that smells like rotten eggs... I think that is what your seeing. I have over 50 Fragmags in my reef, many over 1 year with no problems at all..

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10126216#post10126216 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JMBoehling
I have over 50 Fragmags in my reef, many over 1 year with no problems at all..


Of course you do JM Boehling. You OWN Aquamags. Im curious JM....why do you go around to all the different forums and dishonestly represent yourself as a customer of Aquamags?? This thread is a little different than most in the sense that usually your are trying to promote your business by posing as a happy customer.

In the case of this thread, instead of playing your typical pretend customer routine, why dont you simply answer technically why what I am seeing COULDNT be a result of your product???

I know what you are saying about the inside of live rock having the rotten egg smelling tar stuff. But this ISNT the inside of a rock. Its the inside of a acropora colony that grew from a frag on one of your Frag-Mags.

Again.....Im not saying it is or it isnt a result of your epoxy or magnet contraption. Im just curious what exactly the black stuff is.

[ade]

Wow.
A responce would be nice. I have a few and I would like to know so that I can get my corals off the Frag-Mags before that happens.

[aquarius77]

I am a real frag mag customer and i have to think that is some kind of leach. I have seen similar "stuff" inside one of my acros and i blame the frag plug it was on because there is nothing in the mother colony. Here are some pics of what i discovered in a acro glued to a "aragonite" plug

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0489.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0488.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0487.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0486.jpg



I quit using those plugs and removed any corals i had on them unless they had completely encrusted.

I like my frag mags, i hope that im off base here but it sure looks like what i was seeing only on a larger scale. When i cut into the acro pictured above i was cutting branches off a frag that just got too big, maybe if i hack into the base of the peice that i fragged the branches off i will run into something like that. It has always been nasty brown, even the mother colony, so i cant say i lost any color but all fragments of that coral are still growing, even the one on the aragonite death plug.

[ek9vboi]

WOW. Honestly... wow. I was thinking about purchasing these frag mags too. Good thing I didn't!

Looks like I will be either looking into getting a close friend to make some for me or I will have to buy some encased in acrylic.

Subscribed.

[JMBoehling]

Fly Guy,

Easy there. I am part owner and co-inventor of the Frag-Mag. I have also been a hobbyist and Reef Centeral Premium member prior to inventing the Frag-mag. I made this product because i thought it would be a cool idea, and it is.

If you have specific quetions about a purchase you made, why not e-mail Aqua-mags directly.

I make these and have the original in my own reef and they are doing great. There is NO black epoxy in the Frag-mag, clear silicone encasing a epoxy coated magnet yes, but black epoxy, no. The only black products are the outer plastic shell and the Black Aragonite, that is it.

Later,

Jim

[flyyyguy]

With all due respect JM boehling, I have seen you on FOUR different reef forums plug your products pretending that you are a customer. One in particular you even joined up with a seperate username specifically with the goal in mind of contributing to a thread that you were already participating in. I dont really care, but that is a fact and you have been called on it numerous times. I just would think by this point you would be forthright and just say so, ESPECIALLY if the question arises as to potential problems.

Again, Im not saying it is or it isnt. But I personally have cause for concern at this point, or I wouldnt have posted this thread.

I still would like to get to the bottom of what exactly this stuff leaching is, and if indeed it was responsible for the symptoms I describe in my original post of this thread.

Aquarius77.......that does look very much like the same stuff. Possibly the only difference being the amount of growth that the coral I had had more opportunity to suck up considerably more of the stuff.

I have made my own frag mags as well, and I encased them in acrylic. Then shaped the acrylic and epoxied white aragonite to make the "plug". I just went and cut the oldest one from one of my frag mags and the skeleton was white as it should be. If I had any more colonies on the Aquamag frag mags I would cut them off to see.

I encourage anyone else who has a decent sized frag/colony that has been on a Aquamags frag mag for a decent amount of time, to cut that sucker off of there and take a peek. That includes you JM. Youve used Aquamag frag mags longer than anyone. Go cut the coral youve had the most growth off of one of the exact same frag mags that you sell, and inspect the skeleton. Post back what you find.

[JMBoehling]

Happy to Mr. Fly Guy. Also note that Aquarius is not using Frag-mags in that picture. It was from a Aragonite Plug, not the Frag-mag.

Later,

Jim

[JMBoehling]

Here you go FLY GUY.... This is a Acro that has been in my reef for over 7 months, I started it as a itsy bitsy frag... As you can see, the base is completely encrusted. I just took this pic, as as you can see the skeleton is BRIGHT white...

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/P6110036Small.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/P6110037Small.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i122/JMBoehling/P6110038Small.jpg

Thanks,

Jim

[gypsyboy38]

Pretty crazy. My first guess probably would have been that what I attached the coral to the mag with chemical reacted with said mag. Interesting (and awful) nonetheless. A more expensive way to do the celery/red water demonstration...

[ade]

Could it be the black agragonite?

[J. Montgomery]

I'm thinking that anaerobic bacteria may have infected the base. If it is anaerobic bacteria, I'd expect that if the frag was put back in the tank, then the black bacteria would die and clear away within a few days. If its some inorganic contaiminant, the black color would persist.

[manderx]

i had the seal on a neodymium magnet leak once and it turned that same kind of black. it was in a clear acrylic cube that i had sealed over with several layers of #16.

if it was anaerobic, it would have stunk like crazy and gone back to white within a few hours of being exposed to air.

i would dremel the frag-mag in half and see what the magnet looks like.

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10134177#post10134177 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by manderx
i had the seal on a neodymium magnet leak once and it turned that same kind of black. it was in a clear acrylic cube that i had sealed over with several layers of #16.

if it was anaerobic, it would have stunk like crazy and gone back to white within a few hours of being exposed to air.

i would dremel the frag-mag in half and see what the magnet looks like.

I just cut it open. The seal was fine. There was zero corrosion on the magnet.

So the black leaching/wicking up into the skeleton was either from the black aragonite, the black silicone, or something else entirely.

Here is the most recent pic from a few weeks ago of the coral in question when the Frag mag was still encrusted inside the base of it. This is only a partial pic of the top of the coral. As you can see it still has purple remaining in the tips but has browned out for the most part.

The coral looks good today. Like i said before I just picked what I could of the black stuff out of the skeleton and sealed it off with glue.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h181/flyyyguy/closed/DSC_3046.jpg

[Neptune777]

I am compelled to chime in here........

I am a frag-mag customer from the get go. I have yet to be disappointed by their product. I have many LE and "delicate" corals in my system (90% of which started as frags on the frag-mag). About 15-20 corals of all different types have fully encrusted the mag and have KILLER pe...... I have since glued all the fragmags onto my live rock so that the corals will grow naturally into colonies......they all have 100% successful.

Your coral IMO has something else going on.....did you widdle down the encrusted base to the original surface of the Frag-Mag (to see if the integrity is still there)? No way a hard inert plastic can "leach" or "wick" into the core of the coral. I would bet that it looks the same as the day you glued the coral onto it.....You should do some detective work before you got on here flaming and making accusations. It's poor form in my opinion....

I will also add that I am a Richmond Reefer and know Jim since he is local as well. I can hands down say that he is a stand up guy all the way!

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10137420#post10137420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
I am compelled to chime in here........

I am a frag-mag customer from the get go. I have yet to be disappointed by their product. I have many LE and "delicate" corals in my system (90% of which started as frags on the frag-mag). About 15-20 corals of all different types have fully encrusted the mag and have KILLER pe...... I have since glued all the fragmags onto my live rock so that the corals will grow naturally into colonies......they all have 100% successful.

Your coral IMO has something else going on.....did you widdle down the encrusted base to the original surface of the Frag-Mag (to see if the integrity is still there)? No way a hard inert plastic can "leach" or "wick" into the core of the coral. I would bet that it looks the same as the day you glued the coral onto it.....You should do some detective work before you got on here flaming and making accusations. It's poor form in my opinion....

I will also add that I am a Richmond Reefer and know Jim since he is local as well. I can hands down say that he is a stand up guy all the way!


Where did I flame??? I called him on his dishonest promotion I have witnessed in the past, when he chimed in here as if he was just a customer as well.

You say he is a stand up guy, and as his friend I can respect you standing up for him. But I dont think its all that honorable to join forums under different usernames specifically to chime in on threads which you are already participating in under your usual username.

I too think fragmags are a great product. The first time I saw them I immediately copied them with an acrylci encasing as I thought it was a great idea.

Regardless, this coral has had some weird black wicking going on, and I was just trying to see if anyone else here might be able to offer any insight as to why. I still cant imagine what else could have wicked up into this coral besides the black aragonite or the silicone used. But I have never seen that before myself either.

Note in my first post I said I wasnt making any accusations against Aquamags. Just trying to figure out what was going on.

[Neptune777]

You flame because you posted on here accusing Frag Mags as being the cause. You did this without dissecting the mag first...and did you contact them directly to give them an opportunity to provide customer service (your post did not say you did)? For a small business this hits hard....in response to your post there were immediately a couple people who would most likely been customers of Jim's but were steered away because of your unfounded, unsubstantiated claims.

Later you cut open the frag-mag and state the magnet is untouched.....you should have done that before posting.

You should always give the manufacturer a chance to respond before going into a public forum and dragging them over the coals....IMO

[Neptune777]

Lets see some pics of the magnet and the original surface of the frag-mag if you still have it. The least you can do is show that it looks fine and the root cause is something else.

[flyyyguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10137531#post10137531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
You flame because you posted on here accusing Frag Mags as being the cause. You did this without dissecting the mag first...and did you contact them directly to give them an opportunity to provide customer service (your post did not say you did)? For a small business this hits hard....in response to your post there were immediately a couple people who would most likely been customers of Jim's but were steered away because of your unfounded, unsubstantiated claims.

Later you cut open the frag-mag and state the magnet is untouched.....you should have done that before posting.

You should always give the manufacturer a chance to respond before going into a public forum and dragging them over the coals....IMO

That was not my intention, and I still dont feel I did "drag Aquamags over the coals". Maybe Jim personally a little bit I did. But from what I have witnessed in several places he kinda asks for it.

Im still not satisfied that just becasue the magnet was not corroded that the black wicking didnt come from something else in the frag mag. I didnt hesitate to offer that i didnt find any corrosion once I did cut it open. And even if I would have done that first, it wouldnt have changed the fact that the coral in question has some strange black wicking going on that I havent seen on anything BUT a aquamag frag mag. Does that mean the aquamag is conclusively to blame?? Of course it doesnt. Still do not know what exactly is

[Neptune777]

Bad form.......IMO. Where are the pics?

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10137573#post10137573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flyyyguy
That was not my intention, and I still dont feel I did "drag Aquamags over the coals". Maybe Jim personally a little bit I did. But from what I have witnessed in several places he kinda asks for it.

Im still not satisfied that just becasue the magnet was not corroded that the black wicking didnt come from something else in the frag mag. I didnt hesitate to offer that i didnt find any corrosion once I did cut it open. And even if I would have done that first, it wouldnt have changed the fact that the coral in question has some strange black wicking going on that I havent seen on anything BUT a aquamag frag mag. Does that mean the aquamag is conclusively to blame?? Of course it doesnt. Still do not know what exactly is



It was your intention or you would have contacted them first...

It is inert plastic my friend.....did you pick off the coral base and get to the original surface to see how it looks?

I am done with this discussion. As for frag-mags....they are a great product and again I have had ZERO issues using them.

[garvondavis14]

Seriously Neptune...he said right away that he was not accusing the frag-mag, but that was the only thing he could think of at the time.
Bad form for posting a problem on a HUGE community, trying to get some answers?
IN MY OPINION, it is bad form on your part for completely tearing this thread away from it's original topic to defend your friend and try to make flyguy look like a d*ck. Did he ever say, "Frag-mags suck, they turned my coral black"?

"Ok......first off.........Im not making any accusations at this point. Im just running this by you all and want to hear your thoughts."

That was his first sentence...ENOUGH SAID.

So is the coral still lookin' better fly?

[Letmegrow]

To me it looks like anaerobic bacteria, when you frag make sure there are no debris under the base of the frag. Something under there will create a space for gas to be trapped and bacteria to form.

I have also seen this when it comes to boring bivalves lodged in SPS. When you pull them out there is a vein of anaerobic goo and mess. It is usually perfectly hallow and does not effect the coral.

However if not clean out or reseal it, it will spur algae to grow from the open spot and can over take the frag.

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10145928#post10145928 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by garvondavis14
Seriously Neptune...he said right away that he was not accusing the frag-mag, but that was the only thing he could think of at the time.
Bad form for posting a problem on a HUGE community, trying to get some answers?
IN MY OPINION, it is bad form on your part for completely tearing this thread away from it's original topic to defend your friend and try to make flyguy look like a d*ck. Did he ever say, "Frag-mags suck, they turned my coral black"?

"Ok......first off.........Im not making any accusations at this point. Im just running this by you all and want to hear your thoughts."

That was his first sentence...ENOUGH SAID.

So is the coral still lookin' better fly?


You can't be serious?

[ade]

I would like to see Aquamags defend them selfs. I cut one of my corals off that had been there for around 8 months and it was fine. I glued the coral with Dollar General super glue. The frag mags work great. I do think that they should post a reply other than saying that they are a satisfied customer.

[JMBoehling]

Ade,

I defended myself, my company and my product a page back. That is when I originally stated the Black substance most likely is the same stuff (Anaerobic) you find in the middle of live rock. That is when I was attacked and falsley accused of creating multiple "Identities" to create fictitous satisfied Frag-mag users on other websites. I did some Marketing, but NEVER created multiple user names as I have been accused of doing on this and other sites.

I am a reef enthusiast and would never create a product that wasn't safe for my reef or others. I hope everyone understands that posts like these can be VERY damaging to the reputation of a product and to a small start up company like mine.

I hope Fly Guys coral recovers, and I also hope that he contnues to use Aqua-mags "Frag-mag" with confidence that it is 100% Reef Safe.

Best regards,

Jim

[cmc0814]

I think I would like to try them. Where can I buy some?

[cmc0814]

Ha,nevermind. I just searched on Google. I found it!

[Charlie Davidson]

Satistified customer here! one GREAT product.. :thumbsup:

[argo]

This must be some strange co-incidence. I was researching the shapes that corals take growing while attached to Frag_Mags (I have a soft spot for tabling acros) and somehow stumbled upon this thread. I needed frag mags to make some additional real estate in my tank for all the cool frags that my family decided to order for me this holiday season. Anyhow, here’s the story in the brief:

A few weeks ago I started noticing my teal stag slowly loose its color. First thought was of RBs and AEFWs and the joy of endless water changes. Removed the coral and part of the rock it encrusted onto and performed TMTCC dip and an hour of fluke treatment to see if I'll find anything with a 20X glass. Nothing, except some mysis shrimp, some pods and baby limpids. That made no sense to me at all - full PE and no color. I severed the main branch and the smell of rotten eggs hit me straight in my nostrils. I examined the coral and take a look at what I found. That teal stag was attached to a DIY rock (made by yours truly). I must have used less than enough SG gel to attach it and its base probably encapsulated either algae or what have you that in turn started decomposing or triggering deterioration of the coral’s innards. The plug (frag_mag) itself has myriad of crevices that have to be leveled either with 2-part epoxy or with enough SG gel to prevent any gaps between coral’s base and the surface of the plug. Is this an explanation to the observed? I am not an expert. But if it is, I hope it puts our collective minds at ease. Happy Holidays to all of you!

http://fastpcsupport.com/staff/reef_tank/sick_teal_stag.jpg

[mano1192]

that just looks gross! Yea i had the same issue, its bacteria from bad fraging technique, now i always use epoxy for my sps frags, takes a little longer to encrust but better than having the pic above!

Ive never used these frag mags, but they look cool. My coral was mounted to a rock w/ SG.

[Oldude]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10128072#post10128072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquarius77
I am a real frag mag customer and i have to think that is some kind of leach. I have seen similar "stuff" inside one of my acros and i blame the frag plug it was on because there is nothing in the mother colony. Here are some pics of what i discovered in a acro glued to a "aragonite" plug

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0489.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0488.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c373/euchre_skillz/New%20Reef/100_0487.jpg

I quit using those plugs and removed any corals i had on them unless they had completely encrusted.

I like my frag mags, i hope that im off base here but it sure looks like what i was seeing only on a larger scale. When i cut into the acro pictured above i was cutting branches off a frag that just got too big, maybe if i hack into the base of the peice that i fragged the branches off i will run into something like that. It has always been nasty brown, even the mother colony, so i cant say i lost any color but all fragments of that coral are still growing, even the one on the aragonite death plug.
I have seen something similar to this in my reef but never used a "fragmag". It was on a aragonite style plug and I thought it was because whatever was in the "cement" plug leeched into the frag.

[radone]

Just to throw something else out there, could it be a reaction
It is a magnet right, well could it be magnetizing the corals skeleton, due to the certain mineral makeup?
Just a thought ;)