Equipment Critique on my new 120g

[WinnipegDragon]

Okay, here is what I am planning on for my new 120g. This will be a mixed reef, SPS/LPS some softies.

120g Tank - All Glass Magnaflow (2x 600GPH overflows) 48L x 24 H x 24D
Stand - All Glass Modern Series
2" Sandbed - 4 x Bags Caribsea Oolite Sand
Live Rock - 75lbs Tonga/Fiji Mix + 50lb currently cooking + 50-75lb Base Rock
Lights - 8 x 4ft Sunlight Supply TEK T5
Moonlights - 4 x Coralife 1w LED
Sump - Custom Acrylic Sump 40g-60g (whatever fits)
Skimmer - EuroReef RS180
Heaters - 2 x 300w Visitherm
Return Pump - Quiet One 4000
Closed Loop - Sequence Dart w/ Wave maker? Oceans Motion?
Refugium Lights - Coralife 20" CF
RO/DI Unit - Melev's 5-Stage

I've never done a closed loop and I'd rather not drill the tank, so I might end up putting in 2 or 4 Koralia 4s instead of the closed loop. I'm torn on it at the moment, so advice is welcomed.

[Wryknow]

Looks good! I have a couple of thoughts for you to consider though:

I wouldn't mess with a closed loop personally (I really don't like having extra holes in my tank.) The Tunze wavemaker rocks if it's within your budget, otherwise I would look at the Koralias or Seios myself. (The seios have a controller now so that would probably be what I would do if I had a tight budget.)

I love and recommend the Ehiems for return pumps pump there's a lot of folks that like the Quiet One pumps too.

I doubt that you'll need 600W of heaters unless you live in Alaska or something. All of the pumps and lights are going t put a lot of heat into your tank already. Speaking of which, you shoulod plane on some 3" or 4" fans to keep the T5s cool.

For the sump you can save a lot of money by using a BRUTE 28 gallon trash can. They fit nicely under a 24" wide stand and are about $32 from Grainger.com.

For refugium lighting I recommend going to Lowe's and picking up a cheap 150W metal halide shop light (like $20.) They are way too yellow for a display tank but grow macroalgae like crazy. I pull out about a gallon of chaeto a week from my fuge.


Happy reefing!

[WinnipegDragon]

Good ideas. I'm actually okay spending the extra on a nice acrylic sump since I have an LFS that makes them and I like the option to customize my refugium/skimmer areas. Lighting for the refugium is more flexible this way too...

As for the closed loop, you are echoing my concerns exactly. I only worry about the additional heat that the submerged powerheads would add. I can't help but think four Koralia 4s aimed towards the centre of the tank (2 at the front, 2 at the back) would create really nice random water patterns all over the tank which should be as good as a wavemaker.

I was going to put in an Eheim 1262 as the return pump, but I worry about them not being self-priming. Wouldn't this be an issue in case of power outage or something?

[sjm817]

Very few pumps including the QO are self priming. All that means is the pump cant draw water if it is above sump level. If the pump intake is below the sump water level (as it normally is), its not an issue. I would use an Eheim over a QO.

[Serioussnaps]

You never really stated what you are trying to keep in the 120. Comments on your equipment are worthless without having some idea of what you want to keep!

[Wryknow]

"This will be a mixed reef, SPS/LPS some softies."

By all means get the custom sump then.

There's nothing wrong with the Koralias but if you ever see a Tunze wavebox in action the difference will be very clear. Chaotic flow is good, but the actually surging wave motion replicates the the actual ocean movement much better IMHO. My softies and anemones look fantastic when they sway back and forth with the waves plus the motion is throughout the tank - no dead zones. They're not cheap but I highly recommend them.

As SJM points out, the whole self-priming feature will not be a factor if you are using an internal return pump but I don'tthink the quiet one is a bad choice either.

[WinnipegDragon]

Hmm... The online vendor I was looking at had a line specifically on the Eheims saying 'please note that these pumps are not self priming' so I had assumed that the others were. I trust the Eheim brand, but I was put off by that notice. I'll go Eheim if it's not a factor.

I'll look into the wavebox as well and see what pricing is like on that.

[Wryknow]

Good luck with everything! It sounds like you're off to a good start.

[WinnipegDragon]

Oh lord those are expensive. The Tunze wavebox is out, sorry :)

[kodyboy]

http://www.protein-skimmer.com/shopping.asp?id=446996&itemid=6658&ct=1&shopperid=46499&merchantid=446996&shop=itemdetail.asp

I would go with the orca above as opposed to the ERrs180, it is better built, has a gate valve, and a recirc for the same price.

[sjm817]

There seems to be a lot of fanfare about the Orca. They look pretty good. It is a choice between a small custom builder and a large mfgr. From what I can see, the ER has a better pump that will draw more air, and has a larger neck to handle the higher LPM. The ER has a wedge pipe output, does not need a gate valve since the wedgepipe performs the same function.

[WinnipegDragon]

Remember also that I am not in the US, so support for a lot of these things will be by mail only, so a large company with a better support is a good thing for me.

There is a local shop that make PVC ones, and he calls them SWC (Saltwater Connection) PureReef. Apparently, they are the same as Reef Octopus, but he has his nameplate stuck on them. Can I trust that, or does that sound like a scam?

[sjm817]

Be aware of the pumps used. There are a lot of new skimmers around with decent bodies and very poor pumps. Poor performing, high power usage/heat issues, and even rust problems.

[WinnipegDragon]

Yeah kind of my thought. The guy has been helpful, but he always strikes me as a bit... slimy.

[kodyboy]

Orca makes aswesome skimmers, and that pump is just as good as the genx4100 with Orca fittings on it. Check out the gallery and see the skimmer in action. In addition the skimmer is flanged (can be opened and cleaned easily) , it is a recirc, which is more efficient, and the gate valve allows more precise calibration than the wedge pipe from what I have seen. I am sure Orca could make is a 4.5 inch neck, and if you wanted hook up whatever pump you would like. I have yet to see a negative review of an Orca skimmer.

[sjm817]

Which pump? It is available with an Octo or a OR according to the site What is the LPM with those two pumps? The ER comes with a 4.5" neck and a good pump in a standard configuration. Yes, you can have many custom builders (ER will also build you anything you want), or you can get an off the shelf skimmer that is set up well from the start.

[kodyboy]

The H3 is equivalent to an OR or Octo, but since it is a recirc a little more efficient. Anyway you are looking at around 800lph without a meshmod, the ER pulls 900 on a genx4100, but it is not a recirc so at the least it is a wash, but most likely a little in the Orcas favor. In addition I am sure the genx4100 could be substituted for little to no cost, or maybe you could get two aquabees instead (dont know about cost there, but certainly more efficient). The Orca can also be a little taller (28 inches instead of 24 inches) so that is another bonus. ER will custom make skimmers, but they are costly......
As is the Orca will equal or beat the CS180 so off the shelf they are similiar, but with Orcas build quality and extras it is the better deal.

[WinnipegDragon]

In any case, I can't see myself buying the Orca without some sort of support structure in Canada.

I am open to other options besides the RS180, but they are going to have to be at least fairly-major brands.

[hyperfocal]

Don't overlook OceanRunner pumps. They're really nice... quiet, efficient, reliable. I have an OR2700 on my skimmer, and an Eheim 1262 on my CL (Eheim was my return pump, but got migrated) and I like them equally.

The Oceanic Tech Series 120 tank is really nice. Low-iron glass on the front panel looks great and the narrower overflow gives more usable tank space.

I'm struggling to get random flow in my tank, and the more I struggle the more attractive the controllable Tunze Streams look. They seem expensive, but once you add up the cost of a Dart, an Ocean's Motion and 3 miles of Loc-line the Tunze gets a lot more affordable in comparison. Plus, controllable! :-)

Planning on a Ca reactor or Kalk doser? I'm using a 2-part supplement, and am happy with it but have a low SPS load.

Skimmer? DIY. No question :-)

[conefree]

Just be careful how much flow you put in the tank if you are going to stick with oolitic sand. Very fine grains and easy to kick up a sandstorm if you aren't careful.

What I ended up doing was dumping my sandbed and going barebottom with cutting board.

[WinnipegDragon]

With barebottom, won't I have to push more like 50x flow? I'm tempted but I like the look of a sand bed.

I also might not go super-fine grain on the sand. I put sugar sand in my RSM and even the limited 10x flow in that made dunes regularly, so I'll likely go with a coarser aragonite.

As for DIY skimmers, I know what I am good at, and what I am not good at. DIY skimmers, I am not good at :)

On to the subject of wavemaking, flow and turbulence, I had though an array of nice wide flow powerheads would the best option short of doing a wavebox or closed loop. Using the incredible power of MS Paint, I sketched out a flow diagram assuming a four-way split return and 4 Koralia 3's or 4's:

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/2/0/8/82765/120flow-0.jpg

Assuming I run with the Eheim 1262 for a return that should give me about 750gph from the return at 5' of head, and 800gph each from the Koralias for a total of ~32x through the display tank, but all of it with nice wide flow.

I would also consider moving two of them to the back wall between the overflows and pointing them forward. Considering I can get Koralia 3s for about $45CDN this seems economical and practical.

Thoughts on this layout?

[kodyboy]

for flow in the tank, get two wavysea units and hook them up to a penductor, that is all you will need with at least 600 gph per penductor (they make a nice wide flow, and multiply the output by around 3x)
Another option is a tunze wavebox, they really do work well and make a cool water flow pattern
I still like the orca skimmer better:)

[skwirl]

i second the orca.. something about having the freedom to choose what you want, and know the quality is there. i wouldnt overlook the das ex2 either. but the skimmer being a recirc is the biggest deciding factor. nw pumps perform so much more effeciently with no head pressure. haun told me, and you can tell just by adjusting your water level in a standard skimmer that you lose performance.

[WinnipegDragon]

Okay, I'll check with the local PVC guy and see if his are recirc or not. If so, then I'll need to check into the pumps and see how they compare against the Orca.

I'll run it by the forum before I buy anything.

[Rue]

When are you expecting all this to be up and running? And it's going in the basement?

[seagirl]

the 1262 will probably be a little less at that head height. i have one about the same height and i would say it's closer to 650gph

i reallly like my hydors too

[WinnipegDragon]

It's going to be in the basement once it's complete. About 2 months from now.

I'm not going to dive in to early on this one :)

[DaveWC]

A few thoughts...

You may find that any tank you get will have temp problems similar to those you had with the Red Sea. Large wattage lights over small bodies of water tend to lead to temps in the 80's, basement or not. Similarly, cheap skimmers all do the same thing... very little. IOW, you get what you paid for. Premium equipment looks like it costs more but with the trials & tribulations you just went through it can be cheaper in the long run.

Jayson does sell the Octopus skimmer & they are the same units as those he sells in his shop. He also reads this forum and may not appreciate being referred to as slimy, but who knows? Burning bridges can be fun!

Give the service Ewing gave you you might consider buying some/much of this equipment from him. You won't find any online resource taking back a tank or equipment that's been in use for a month. Especially given the problems that you experienced. J&L is great for returns of products that don't work at all but they won't give money back because you feel the product doesn't work as well as it should.

You might also consider spending a bit of time on the local s/w forum and asking some questions of folks that have bought from the local sources you're considering. There are deals to be had & informed folks to give info.

[WinnipegDragon]

A few thoughts in return...

I understand the light=heat equation, but where the Red Sea turned really south is that even with the additional cooling fan, the tank overheated. Regardless of that, the other 4 defective components (skimmer, heater, powerheads, canopy fans) really sealed the deal on that.

As for the SWC stuff, allow me to clarify what my thinking was. The first time I was in the store I was told that the house-branded stuff was the same as a reputable brand name but slightly better.

If you walked into a car dealership, and all the cars there looked DIY but the salesman told you that they were all the same as Toyotas, but a little better, would your first thought be "Wow what a deal!" or "I'm being fed a line." I was unable to confirm that what I was being told was true, and it sounded fishy to me, thus my comment. It was not a personal judgment, just a feeling I had that I was being fed a line.

Ewing was very good to deal with, and I agree that he has earned my business. I will be buying my tank, stand, lights and live rock from him at the very least.

I have also just signed on to Winnipeg Fish Forums, so I am getting details from there as well now.

[DaveWC]

Jayson has his own stuff that's made in the shop and then he also sells the Octopus line. Do a search here, you'll see... search for the words Octopus & Jayson. His nickname on RC is Jayson.

[WinnipegDragon]

I'm also getting differing opinions on eggcrate under the sand. If I'm doing a 2" sand bed with eggcrate under the rock, is this going to cause a Nitrate issue?

[Rue]

Well...I'll be reading your 'big tank' thread with interest...can't see myself going there...but never say never!

Got my live rock today with a few live critters on it...I'm pumped! Woohoo!

[WinnipegDragon]

Glad to hear things are going well for you Rue :)

[WinnipegDragon]

One more piece of hardware to consider...

Does anyone have experience with the Tunze Osmolator auto-top off? Can it be used in the sump or is it for the main tank only?

[WinnipegDragon]

Hmm... Too many gadgets to consider... Waste collector for the RS-180:

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/skimmers.php?product_ID=ps-pmpw410

[Wryknow]

I always recommend putting egg crate on the bottom of the tank under the sand: I've seen too many tanks with cracked bottom panels caused by rock falls. I don't have any nitrate issues.

My experience with the osmolator is fantastic. The sensors sit in the sump and the water is pumped into the main tank.

[WinnipegDragon]

Sounds good. I know that there is a calcium dispenser for it as well, so that might help do double duty...

[Wryknow]

Don't waste your money on their calcium dispenser. It's just an expensive 1L bottle with some tubing run through it. There are lots of other, better options for Kalk water dispensers. I like and use the PM 660 myself but there's lots of others.

[WinnipegDragon]

I should really start sketching out the layout of the stand interior if I want to figure out how big a sump I can handle and where all these magical little devices are going to go...

Does anyone know the interior dimensions/layout of the 48x24 AGA Modern stand? I can't find it on-line...

[pjf]

FWIW, here are some comments:

• A temperature controller should be used in case your heater fails in the on-position. Be sure that your controller can be recalibrated if necessary.
• Either an Eheim Jager heater that can be calibrated or a Fluval Tronic that has rubber protectors on both ends are superior to the Visitherm.
• Make sure that your AGA Modern Series stand has no center post.
• The Tek Light has reflectors that stain permanently. Look at ATI fixtures.
• Size your return pump for your refugium-sump or overflow-fed skimmer and use in-tank flow makers to make up any shortfall in circulation.
• For refugium lighting, a light with mounting legs may be less stable than one of these simple T5 strip lights: http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/power_aqualightT5.htm

[WinnipegDragon]

You are not the first to suggest a controller for temperature, but I'm having trouble finding an article that describes what they actually do, and how to use them.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for a basic guide to controllers?

[pjf]

Heaters that overheat aquariums have caused sales of temperature controllers to skyrocket. A temperature controller monitors your aquarium’s temperature with a probe, displays the temperature, and has an electrical outlet to supply power to a heater. The controller is less likely to overheat an aquarium because its thermostat is more reliable than that of a typical aquarium heater. A dual-stage controller has a second electrical outlet to supply power to a chiller or fan. The controller keeps your aquarium temperature near the desired temperature by supplying power to either your heater or chiller as appropriate and alarms if the temperature drifts beyond a certain range.

While a simple heating element can be used with a controller, I prefer to use thermostatic heaters with my controller. My controller’s probe fell out of my aquarium once and the thermostatic heater, which is set only a few degrees higher, saved the aquarium from overheating. Together, the controller and the thermostatic heater make overheating very improbable. Some aquarists use a controller with two heaters in case one heater fails.

I use a dual-stage Medusa HC-150 to control both my Eheim Jager heater and a fan. Ranco or Aqua Logic dual-stage controllers are also popular.

[WinnipegDragon]

Sounds like a good idea.

I'm really wondering if I should get a controller to handle other aspects as well. I know I can get a unit to do temp and pH as well, how about one that monitors calcium? Or are you better off to have your calcium levels controlled manually or by your Calcium/Kalk Reactor?

[WinnipegDragon]

Nevermind, I think I just read the answer to my own question :)

Is the Aquacontroller Jr a dual-stage temperature monitor?

[WinnipegDragon]

Man, all these addons are scaring me down to a 75g or 90g low tech tank.

This 120g with all the fancy addons is easily a $6k tank.

[hyperfocal]

It doesn't have to be that expensive. Most of the expensive stuff being tossed around on this thread is gravy. It's all *nice* to have, but almost none is needed.

Start with the fundamentals: Tank + lights + skimmer + circulation. $2k new, or half that if you find someone getting out of the hobby (which happens all the time)

[WinnipegDragon]

Yeah, it's hard to balance 'doing it right' with 'paying your mortgage this month'. I'm rethinking a slightly smaller tank, and other changes like less expensive skimmers, etc...

[WinnipegDragon]

For comparison, here is a 90g lower-tech version:

AGA 48x18x24 Tank
AGA Modern Series Stand
Praire Reef Supplies RO/DI
TEK T5 4" x 6 54w Bulb
6 x 4" Geissman Bulbs
3 x .75w Coralife LED Moonlights
Coralife Superskimmer 225g
90lbs LR + 50lbs Base Rock
2x Ebo Jager 200w Heaters
Custom Acrylic Sump
Quiet One 3000 Return Pump
2 x Koralia 4 Powerheads
2 x Phosban 150 Reactors (Carbon and ROWAphos)

That's about $3,200CDN all new. But no auto-top off, no calcium, no temp controller, etc...

[DaveWC]

If you want to save money I'd adjust with the following:

48x18x24 Tank - Ewing
Stand - 2x4 & plywood DIY
RO/DI - Praire Reef Supplies
TEK T5 4" x 6 54w Bulb - Praire Reef Supplies
6 x 4" Geissman Bulbs - Praire Reef Supplies
Skimmer - Praire Reef Supplies
90lbs Fiji - Praire Reef Supplies
50lbs Reef Bones base rock - Praire Reef Supplies
2x Ebo Jager 200w Heaters
Glass Sump built to size - Ewing
Quiet One 3000 Return Pump - Ewing
2 Tunze 6025 powerheads

Skip the rest or get it later. If you get the bulk of your stuff from Quinn & Ewing you will save a ton of cash. They both make great deals and you'll have local support if you need help. I'd also check the local forum, there's always stuff for sale for good deals. I just sold my entire 225g tank/stand/livestock as well as my 67g tank/sump/livestock. There's always someone upgrading or getting out and you can get good equipment for 50% of the price. Hell, I had a draw for my 225g tank/stand/sump and the guy who won it bought 2 tickets... $20 for the tank/stand/sump and a return pump. Patience will save you a ton of cash. Since you're new, local support can also be priceless. Just a thought.

[powdertang05]

first off ehiem as the return, close loops are great have used them for year with no problems as for lighting i would recommend a different brand if possible more like the aqua solar flare fixture it has much better output and as for bulbs get the best gues or ati and most important do not skip on the stand i would personally recommend the black pine from aga as i recommend it to all my customers, pressboard is not good.

[WinnipegDragon]

Yeah, I think we are of the same mindset on this stuff. I'll have to talk to Ewing about the tank and stands. I'll have a large credit to use there, so he'll certainly be supplying a bunch of stuff.

Prairie Reef has nice prices on a lot of stuff too, so I'll have to get in touch with them.

I'll also have to sign up with ASW to see if there are any discounts available on this gear.

[WinnipegDragon]

2 x Tunze 6025 - Isn't that going to be a little light on the flow side of things?

[DaveWC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10219098#post10219098 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WinnipegDragon
2 x Tunze 6025 - Isn't that going to be a little light on the flow side of things?

You can mod them to get 1200gph. Check out this thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1150100&highlight=koralia) ...

Tunze 6025 vs Koralia 4
half the size
can be place ALOT closer to the surface of the water
the flow is a lot better since its a stream and not a \_/ like the 4's.
All the flow from the 4's come out the top of the pump.
easily modded to 1200+ gph
also the magnet are ALOT stronger.
Easier to direct the flow where you want it to go.

[WinnipegDragon]

Should have thought of that...