Is Pulverized Limestone Sand OK?

[saltyseaman]

I've been shopping around for some sand lately, and since southdown is no more ( :( ) I haven't been able to find a calcium based alternative that beats the $0.50 a pound LFS price and is near by. I ran across a thread where someone was using pulverized limestone sand, but they never responded when I asked how well it was working for them. Since limestone is a form of Calcium Carbonate, it seems like it may work. My main concern is impurities like metals, and I wouldn't like to add a phosphate rich sand to my tank either. Does this sound like a sand that would work? Has anyone tried using this pulverized limestone sand? Can anyone suggest anything to look for that would be problematic?

Can anyone suggest a different source for safe sand (not silica) that would be cheaper than $0.50 a pound? I will be needing between 1500 and 2000 lbs, so shipping may be an option.

Thanks!

[Billybeau1]

I have heard of people using the Home Depot play sand which is real cheap but I've never used it.

Bertoni may have some ideas when he checks in. :)

[saltyseaman]

I believe the home depot sand it silica. Do you know if that is the case?

[Icefire]

it's safe

I use mortar sand, same thing

[foshizzle]

play sand is silica. no real problems with using it in a tank but the grains are much sharper and more jagged than calcareous sand so they aren't as good for microfauna populations

In my fuge I filled the bottom 3" with playsand and the top 3" with calcareous sand

[saltyseaman]

foshizzle - I may resort to Silica, but I'm trying to find a more asthetically pleasing alternative.

Icefire - What brand did you use? Could you link to some threads where other people are using the same thing, preferably SPS keepers?


Can anyone else comment on the mortar sand option?

[Icefire]

local brand

[Boomer]

Some have used pulverized limestone with no issue. Most of the play sand from Home Depot that is used in this hobby is oolitic aragonite and not silica sand. If you out some in Vinegar it will fizz. The other test is aragonite is a soft mineral MHS 3 and will not scratch a metal plate or knife blade where silica sand MHS 7 will.

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10257964#post10257964 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
Some have used pulverized limestone with no issue.
Have some used it with issues? I see that people are using it for DIY live rock. I can't find threads talking a lot about using it for a sand bed. Do you know or have any suggestions about what I should be cautious of and be looking for when shopping for this stuff?


Most of the play sand from Home Depot that is used in this hobby is oolitic aragonite and not silica sand.
Do you know what brand they are using? I went to Home Depot and all I found was Silica sand. If I knew the brand then maybe I could have them order me some.


I found some Kolorscape White Play Sand at Meijer packaged by Old Castle, but it is silica as well. But it's not your average Silica. The grains get very fine. I'm scared to use it because there are some largish grey chunks in there, while the rest of the sand is white. Other people have reported success with it, though.

[Boomer]

No, I know of no one that has had issues. Although I would rather see you use the below, which is well tested and used in the hobby.

You are looking for Home Depot Southdown Tropical Play Sand. We usually just refer to it as Southdown. And not all stores carry it. A search on their website seems to to show they no longer carry it at all but some store still may have some in stock. However, Old Castle is the exact same thing but I do not know off hand what they call it. You can also try

http://www.crabstreetjournal.com/products/substrates/playsand.html

purearagonite.com

[saltyseaman]

Thanks for the help Boomer

Southdown isn't made anymore, it sold out to Oldcastle. Yardright won't reply to my emails, and I saw one thread where a guy found their number and ended up calling them and they said they don't sell an aragonite sand anymore. www.purearagonite.com is no longer a website selling sand. I called and emailed www.aragonitesource.com and they won't reply. There are a few other places I've tried to contact and they also won't reply. All of the local stores say that they can't get any Aragonite Sand or Tropical Play Sand. The cheapest I can find it is $0.50 a pound at a LFS, which is not bad for sand marketed for the aquarium industry but still more than I want to spend.

It seems like I may have to go with Silica on the bottom, then a screen, and then aragonite on the top, just so I know I'm safe. I want to get 8" in a rubbermaid stock tank, and there is no way I'm going to spend $0.50 a pound to get there. :(

[steve the plumb]

I tryed the sand from HD and it was brown I didn't like it at all.I also don't know if the sand in the US is the same as they sell here in Canada.My friend tryed some sand from RONA hardware here locally and it works great.It also acts as a buffer his ph is always 8.3.I want to buy the same type of sand.Its white and $5 for a 25 pound bag.Its a little hard to find because not every store has it.He did have to wash it well.

[Boomer]

Ok salty :(

[isjg]

I don't know if it's used over there but crushed marble is very common here. You can pick it up from building or swimming pool companies since its it's used to make pools. Available in several different sizes and very cheap. Looks great since its a very bright white.

[saltyseaman]

isjg - Marble is Limestone, so that sounds good. When you say it's common around there are you saying that a lot of people are using it in there aquariums? How long have people been doing this?



I found some threads worth looking at, many with links to other threads. I don't know how I missed them in the first search I did.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=889622
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=676401&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=875880&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=965974

I don't feel totally confident yet, but after reading through all of this I am getting there.

[Boomer]

:thumbsup:

Marble is Limestone

Marle is not limesotne but I'll let you slide by with that ;) Marble is metamorphized limestone.

[Billybeau1]

Sheesh Boomer, I had to look it up. :lol:

Metamorphic rock is the result of the transformation of a pre-existing rock type, the protolith, in a process called metamorphism, which means "change in form". The protolith is subjected to heat (greater than 150 degrees Celsius) and extreme pressure causing profound physical and/or chemical change. The protolith may be sedimentary rock, igneous rock or another older metamorphic rock.

Metamorphic rocks make up a large part of the Earth's crust and are classified by texture and by chemical and mineral assemblage (metamorphic facies). They are formed deep beneath the Earth's surface by great stresses from rocks above and high pressures and temperatures. They are also formed by the intrusion of molten rock, called magma, into solid rock and form particularly at the place of contact between the magma and solid rock where the temperatures are high.

The study of metamorphic rocks (now exposed at the Earth's surface following erosion and uplift) provides us with very valuable information about the temperatures and pressures that occur at great depths within the Earth's crust.

Some examples of metamorphic rocks are gneiss, slate, marble and schist.





Interesting huh ? :D

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10259650#post10259650 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
:thumbsup:

Marble is Limestone

Marle is not limesotne but I'll let you slide by with that ;) Marble is metamorphized limestone.

Oh ... uhhh. Yeah, that's what I meant :worried: ;)

[Billybeau1]

salty, gotta watch that Boomer........................:blown:

[fraggin]

i am going to follow along on this thread, i am in the processes of setting up a 75 and need about 200# for tank and fuge.

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10259855#post10259855 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Billybeau1
salty, gotta watch that Boomer........................:blown:
I'm noticing! ;)


fraggin - I found this thread to be rather informative
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=676401&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
(also posted above) . I want to ask for an update from the people following that thread, but for some reason you can't post on it. (I've allready informed the mods). It sounds like it has real potential! Now, if only I could find it locally. I called all of the Home Depots in a 50 mile radius and none of them have even heard of it.

[fraggin]

i been reading thru the links you posted for the last 2 hours heh.
i will try to check with HD around here next week. then Lowes and maybe the local wallmarts. also looking at travis's posts on the stuff it looks good to me.

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10260535#post10260535 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by saltyseaman
I want to ask for an update from the people following that thread, but for some reason you can't post on it.

Sorry to say, but that thread is almost 2 years old.

[saltyseaman]

Right, that's what makes the updates so valuable :)

[Bloke]

I know of three local reefers that have had tanks setup for the past three years with pulverized limestone. on my new 90g I plan to use 2 bags of it and best of all it runs about $5 a bag!

[saltyseaman]

Lucky Bloke. I'm having trouble finding it.

Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

[isjg]

Correct, marble USED to be limestone. Now it's mostly calcite (a form of CaCO3) and is popular as a pool finish. A lot of reefers use it over here since it looks good and is cheap. Available in different grain sizes but I don't know what you guys call it over there.

[Boomer]

Limestone is also mostly Calcite, just like Marble :D I think what you may mean is that dead marine life, like corals, which make up many Limestones, use to be Aragonite but are now mostly Calcite. During diagenesis the Aragonite is altered to Calcite and losses its Strontium, as it does not fit in to the Calcite crystal lattice. It is called ACT= Aragonite to Calcite Transition.

[Billybeau1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10264356#post10264356 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
diagenesis

Boomer, you're killing me :lol:

"In geology and oceanography, diagenesis is any chemical, physical, or biological change undergone by a sediment after its initial deposition and during and after its lithification, exclusive of surface alteration (weathering) and metamorphism. These changes happen at relatively low temperatures and pressures and result in changes to the rock's original mineralogy and texture. The boundary between diagenesis and metamorphism, which occurs under conditions of higher temperature and pressure, is gradational.

After deposition, sediments are compacted as they are buried beneath successive layers of sediment and cemented by minerals that precipitate from solution. Grains of sediment, rock fragments and fossils can be replaced by other minerals during diagenesis. Porosity usually decreases during diagenesis, except in rare cases such as dissolution of minerals and dolomitization.

The study of diagenesis in rocks is used to understand the tectonic history they have undergone, the nature and type of fluids that have circulated through them. From an economic standpoint, that study aids in assessing the likelihood of finding various economic minerals and hydrocarbons."

[fraggin]

o man now my head hurts :lol:

[Boomer]

I like making heads hurt :D

[saltyseaman]

Well my head doesn't have to hurt anymore, because I found some Southdown :bounce1: :bounce3: :bounce2: :D (somone that has bags left over from years ago) . Finding Pulverized limestone will have to wait until another day.

[reefnewbie54321]

I read through this thread andf no one really said whether or not pulverized limestne was the way to go. Most said it was ok but listed other options. I am creating a DSB so fuana life is a must, I have heard Kolorscape from Toys R Us and Pulverized Limestone will work. Can any one comment on if these types of sand will work on a DSB and wich one is better?

And whats bad about silica sand?

[wan 2 B reef'in]

Has anyone heard anything about "Quikrete" play sand???
That seems to be whats around in my area at H.D. or Lowes.

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10268970#post10268970 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reefnewbie54321
I read through this thread andf no one really said whether or not pulverized limestne was the way to go.
You have to read through the threads that the links on the last page go to, and then read through the threads linked in those threads, and then you'll have to make your own decision about whether or not you try it. People have been reporting success. Be careful of the brand, though. Some of them have more clay in them than others, or something along those lines. From my understanding Pavestone is the brand most people seem to be going with and reporting success. You have to rinse it REALLY well first, though.


I have heard Kolorscape from Toys R Us and Pulverized Limestone will work. Can any one comment on if these types of sand will work on a DSB and wich one is better? And whats bad about silica sand?
Kolorscape White Play Sand, at least the stuff I've seen, is a Silica sand. People have used that with no problems as well. It's hard to say which is "better". The way I look at it is that we are trying to mimic the environments that these critters come from, and they mostly come from areas with calcium based sand, so why not give them what they are used to? Silica Sand will still work, though.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10269458#post10269458 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wan 2 B reef'in
Has anyone heard anything about "Quikrete" play sand???
If it's the brown stuff, stay away. This is the brown stuff.
http://images.lowes.com/product/631282/631282240701.jpg

However, they have this Silica sand that works and Lowe's carries it, but the name is slipping my mind at the moment. It's a silica sandblasting sand in Building Materials. Do a search here on RC for Quikrete and you should be able to find it. Pool Filter Sand also works, as it is just silica sand. Just make sure there are no chemicals on it.

[wan 2 B reef'in]

Thanks, thats the stuff I was wondering about.

[Boomer]

and the reasons it is brown is that it may not be silica sand / say but ground up rock that is silica based rock like granite or rhyolite. Pure Silica sand should be almost white, as it is almost all quartz. However, quartz can also be brownish.

salty

What is the reason for staying away ? It should be fine.

[torpedo101]

Hey guys I have this setup and don t know what kind of sand it is ..umm I amwondering about cleaning now that it has been set up for a month and looks like its holding chem..s in. I don t know any fish in it yet.some lr is all..should or whouldanyone advise as to empty tank of water and clean sand orreplace it with some new..I am newtosaltwater and never thought about it holding chems ..like phosphates in ..its not alot of sand maybe 35 lbs at most..the tank is 40 and the sand wasestablished when I got it.would appreciate some input.. will dothe vinegar test..and post to see which kind it is.. . help this newbie andsave the world..lol

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10270494#post10270494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
and the reasons it is brown is that it may not be silica sand / say but ground up rock that is silica based rock like granite or rhyolite. Pure Silica sand should be almost white, as it is almost all quartz. However, quartz can also be brownish.

salty

What is the reason for staying away ? It should be fine.

From my understanding there can be "impurities" in it. Like there is the potential for metals, from my understanding. I could very well be wrong, though. I guess my suggestion seemed a bit too conclusive. What would lead me to not use it is because I have never seen anybody else use it, and I have spent way too much money on my critters to experiment. It may be an interesting sand to conduct an experiment with in a test tank, though it's drab brown color wouldn't be too attractive IMO.


torpedo we need a bit more info before we can offer any advice. What about cleaning are you concerned about? What do you mean when you say that it is holding chems? If the sand was established before you got it then I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[fraggin]

well i think i found a supplier for crushed dolomite down the road, they have different grades too. they are sending me a spec sheet on it and hopefully samples. i don't know if they will ship or not.
the salesman i talked to knew of Old Castle and i think he said they are no more, so that would explain why they never got back to you seaman.

[saltyseaman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303841#post10303841 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fraggin

the salesman i talked to knew of Old Castle and i think he said they are no more, so that would explain why they never got back to you seaman. I thought that may be the case. They finally took their website down.

[fraggin]

this what i got off their webpage:
What are your agricultural limestone specifications?

Magnesium limestone:
Guaranteed Dry Weight Analysis: Fine Sized
Total Calcium (Ca) 21%
Total Magnesium (Mg) 12%
Magnesium Oxide 20%
Calcium Oxide 30%
Total Oxides 50%

Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE) 103.5
Effective Neutralizing Value (ENV) 92

Screen Test
55% through 200 mesh
75% through 100 mesh
80% through 60 mesh
98% through 20 mesh

Calcium limestone:
Guaranteed Dry Weight Analysis: Fine Sized
Total Calcium (Ca) 30.5%
Total Magnesium (Mg) 3.3%
Magnesium Oxide 5.5%
Calcium Oxide 43%
Total Oxides 48.5%

Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE) 90.4
Effective Neutralizing Value (ENV) 71

Screen Test
40% through 200 mesh
50% through 100 mesh
70% through 60 mesh
98% through 20 mesh

anyone want to comment on the numbers as to if its ok to use?

[Boomer]

Magnesium limestone

There is not such thing in the real geological world. An that is not Dolomite but Dolomitic -Limestone.

Magnesium Oxide 20%
Pure Dolomite has MgO of ~ 40 % and less pure down to 30 %

[fraggin]

so its not fit to use?

[Boomer]

Oh yes, I forgot, you could use it that is not an issue. Stuff like this was common in the olden days for bottoms. My only issue with it is that it is not a full assay and may have other impurities in it. Here are some examples.

Greg Hillers analysis of limestone media for CaCO3/CO2 reactors
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=1995&cid=124&search=

Calcium Reactor Substrate -- Phosphate Levels
by Greg Hiller
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/short.htm

[themaddhatter]

Is crushed limestone the same as limestone screenings? Home Depot here in Ontario sells screening from a company called King. They also sell a playsand, though they don't specify composition... Anyone have any experience w/ this?

[Boomer]

Screenings is a generic term used to designate the finer fraction of crushed stone that accumulates after primary and secondary crushing and separation on a 4.75 mm (No. 4) sieve. The size distribution, particle shape, and other physical properties can be somewhat different from one quarry location to another, depending on the geological source of the rock quarried, the crushing equipment used, and the method used for coarse aggregate separation. Screenings generally contain freshly fractured faces, have a fairly uniform gradation, and do not usually contain large quantities of fines.