View Full Version : Haven't seen this before
My son took his 100g salt water down. he has been working to much.so i got his live rock and was going to add to my tanks buuuuttttt. Some thing strange growing on a lot of the rock.Little white soft tubs looks like a fly maggot. Here is a pic any ideas.
Heeeelp please....
http://hometown.aol.com/TRowe76028/Fish/worm1.jpg
Look like they might be "pineapple sponges".
eunado
06/30/2007, 11:18 PM
Definately sponges. I've got a ton of them.
There is hundreds or close to it on the rocks .Ther was probaly a thousand in his tank. I have all the rock in water I am goning to re cure it for a couple of weeks (do to neglect) I got all the sand out of my sons tank and was going to use it in mine because i have a CC bed right now.But I am worried about a nitrate issue. Im shure it was around a 100 in his tank.
wilsonh
07/01/2007, 05:31 AM
If you are going to re-cure the rock, do it in fresh water. That will kill any unwanted hitch hikers such as the sponges.
Once done, bring the salinity up to the same level as your tank over a 3 day period so the bacteria have time to adapt, and your rock is ready to go.
why would you not want sponges?
most sponges are cool buuut these look like maggets
Dubbin1
07/01/2007, 07:26 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10250554#post10250554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
If you are going to re-cure the rock, do it in fresh water. That will kill any unwanted hitch hikers such as the sponges.
Once done, bring the salinity up to the same level as your tank over a 3 day period so the bacteria have time to adapt, and your rock is ready to go.
I would not recommend doing that.
LOL, they'll probably disappear just like they came. Look at them close, I think they're kind of cool
http://images8.fotki.com/v159/photos/2/28482/1806483/DSC04622_Sponge-vi.jpg
http://images105.fotki.com/v514/photos/2/28482/1806483/DSC04623_sponge-vi.jpg
scarter
07/01/2007, 07:48 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10250554#post10250554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
If you are going to re-cure the rock, do it in fresh water. That will kill any unwanted hitch hikers such as the sponges.
Once done, bring the salinity up to the same level as your tank over a 3 day period so the bacteria have time to adapt, and your rock is ready to go.
I am also going to dissagree with this
I also have these sponges. They seem to prefer the back side of the rock work.
Sorry to hijack but what are those "snails" in Debi's second pic? Just curious cause I have them all over my tank. I know they are not bad but I'd like to know a name for them.
Satori
07/01/2007, 08:31 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10250959#post10250959 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MTB
Sorry to hijack but what are those "snails" in Debi's second pic? Just curious cause I have them all over my tank. I know they are not bad but I'd like to know a name for them.
Spirobid (sp?) worms. Filter feeders.
wilsonh
07/01/2007, 02:59 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10250771#post10250771 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dubbin1
I would not recommend doing that.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10250841#post10250841 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scarter
I am also going to dissagree with this
Do you two know WHY you dissagree?
Grins
07/01/2007, 03:02 PM
I have the sponges too but I think the resemble q-tip heads more than maggots. Try to enjoy them.
bpd964
07/01/2007, 03:04 PM
I'll start with one answer...
When you soak rock in fresh water, everything is going to die. AND, 3 days raising the salinity is not going to do anything at all to or for the still dead and remaining things you killed with the fresh water. It would surely create a serious cycle..
NEXT -
justinl
07/01/2007, 03:14 PM
pineappl sponges. i got a ton of them too in my fowlr. I dont mind the look of them plus they are filter feeders. harmless yet beneficial.
Dubbin1
07/01/2007, 03:23 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10252685#post10252685 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
Do you two know WHY you dissagree?
Because there is no reason to kill perfectly good LR.
Reefghoul
07/01/2007, 03:27 PM
I had these in my old 120, they were everywhere....
bues0022
07/01/2007, 03:53 PM
From my understanding of freshwater vs. saltwater bacteria (and please let me know if I am wrong people), they are not the same. Meaning, if I have LR in a freshwater tank, and gradually raise salinity to convert to SW, what's happening is a slow process of the FW bacteria strains dying, and SW bacteria strains taking their place and eating the other dead junk. That is why I think one poster said not to do this. Is my understanding correct?
Peter Eichler
07/01/2007, 04:00 PM
Curing live rock in freshwater is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard in this forum. Why bother getting live rock if you're just going to kill everything on and in it... The sponges in question are completely harmless filter feeders that inhabit the dark areas of many reef tanks. If anything they're a beneficial natural filter, though their benefits are certainly minimal.
wilsonh
07/01/2007, 04:36 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10252966#post10252966 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
The sponges in question are completely harmless filter feeders that inhabit the dark areas of many reef tanks. If anything they're a beneficial natural filter, though their benefits are certainly minimal.
Their "benefits" are virtually nonexistant, plus they ugly!;)
The bacteria are the same, they can adapt to salt water, or fresh water, provided it's done over 3 days or so.
As to killing the liverock, it will kill nearly all marine organisms, including the sponges, so it depends if that is what the person wants. It will not kill or harm the bacteria, ie, will not stop the rock being "live".
So my suggestion was to do this as he wanted to get rid of the sponges. I would not recommend it if there was other marine life on the rock he wanted to save.
As an interesting aside, form time to time there are posts by people who have liverock covered in algae, asking if they could re-cure the rocks to get rid of the alge. Cooking them in fresh water is the ideal way for this as all the nuisance algae will be killed. At the end the salinity can simply be brought up to normal over a few days and the now clean, but bacterially live, rock, is ready to go.
So the people saying this is a bad idea are objecting because fresh water will kill nearly all the marine organisms on the rock. I agree, so don't do it if you don't want that. But if you DO want that, it is a GOOD idea, do it.
Ursus
07/01/2007, 04:53 PM
I see no reason to kill off the sponges. They're just a part of the tank's life cycle like anything else. I had zero pineapple sponges for a long time, then I had a ton. And I mean a TON. They were everywhere and I didn't like them, but over time their numbers dwindled to the point where I rarely see any. Just give them time to find a balance in your system, no need to go killing things off.
Also, even if you do kill them all off, they could get introduced into your system at a later date and you would see the giant bloom anyways. Might as well get it over with now.
wilsonh
07/01/2007, 05:00 PM
Same experience here Ursus. For me, they come, and they go. Right now I can't find any at all. Not sure exactly what mechanism is involved though.
Ursus
07/01/2007, 05:03 PM
I too wonder why they come and go. Lately though I haven't had many at one time for ages. Now if only aiptasia would dwindle in numbers like this.... I'm off to another round of injections :(
Peter Eichler
07/01/2007, 05:13 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253149#post10253149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
Their "benefits" are virtually nonexistant, plus they ugly!;)
The bacteria are the same, they can adapt to salt water, or fresh water, provided it's done over 3 days or so.
As to killing the liverock, it will kill nearly all marine organisms, including the sponges, so it depends if that is what the person wants. It will not kill or harm the bacteria, ie, will not stop the rock being "live".
So my suggestion was to do this as he wanted to get rid of the sponges. I would not recommend it if there was other marine life on the rock he wanted to save.
As an interesting aside, form time to time there are posts by people who have liverock covered in algae, asking if they could re-cure the rocks to get rid of the alge. Cooking them in fresh water is the ideal way for this as all the nuisance algae will be killed. At the end the salinity can simply be brought up to normal over a few days and the now clean, but bacterially live, rock, is ready to go.
So the people saying this is a bad idea are objecting because fresh water will kill nearly all the marine organisms on the rock. I agree, so don't do it if you don't want that. But if you DO want that, it is a GOOD idea, do it.
Thing is, at no point did he express wanting to get rid of the spomnges, I got the feeling he just wanted to know what they are.
Also, I'd love to see the data that shows that various marine species of Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter (they are different from freshwater) can survive in pure freshwater for 3 days. Even if they can survive, if bacteria is all you're after using live rock is pointless in the first place.
Peter Eichler
07/01/2007, 05:15 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253289#post10253289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ursus
I too wonder why they come and go. Lately though I haven't had many at one time for ages. Now if only aiptasia would dwindle in numbers like this.... I'm off to another round of injections :(
They're filter feeders so it's in all likelyhood it's a food source issue.
wilsonh
07/01/2007, 05:48 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253344#post10253344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Also, I'd love to see the data that shows that various marine species of Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter (they are different from freshwater) can survive in pure freshwater for 3 days. Even if they can survive, if bacteria is all you're after using live rock is pointless in the first place.
No, the bacteria are the same, they just need to be adapted.
Do I have the data on it? No. I read it all up once but I'm not going to track it all down for you.
Some years ago, after reading up on it, I began using the method, fresh to salt, and salt to fresh, and trust me, done slowly there is no effect on the cycle at all. I have done it many times as I used to aquaculture corals to sell commercially and incorporated fresh water rock curing to my system. I would not be advocating the method if I did not have personal experience with it.
On the other hand I would suspect the people who say it won't work have never tried it ;) .
Ya I was more interested in knowing what they were and if they were beneficial (looks like a Q-tip is a better example)all the rock is in salt water in a big ice chest with a power head for circulation. I didn't have a Quarantine tank that big till i could find out what they were I really appreciate all the comment and suggestion.
Peter Eichler
07/01/2007, 06:40 PM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253528#post10253528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
No, the bacteria are the same, they just need to be adapted.
Do I have the data on it? No. I read it all up once but I'm not going to track it all down for you.
Some years ago, after reading up on it, I began using the method, fresh to salt, and salt to fresh, and trust me, done slowly there is no effect on the cycle at all. I have done it many times as I used to aquaculture corals to sell commercially and incorporated fresh water rock curing to my system. I would not be advocating the method if I did not have personal experience with it.
On the other hand I would suspect the people who say it won't work have never tried it ;) .
No, marine and freshwater bacteria used in the nitrogen cycle are not the same... That is fact, not opinion.
TarheelFrag
07/01/2007, 06:57 PM
I have herds of these things under my rocks. There not my most favorite thing in my tank. But they are filter feeders so I will take as many as I can get.
OK does anyone know what they filter ((nitrates maybe ?))Cause that would be a really good thing.
Pea-brain
07/01/2007, 07:42 PM
Well I dunno aboutall this nitrosame and all that, but I used a filter from my freshwater tank and slowly increaded the salt over a matter of hours, and my cycle was fast. Like a week and a half. But dropping the rock in FW then acclimating it to SW is absurd because the simple fact is that major change in sainity in the first place would kill them. Anyways, I have some in my tank and they don't harm anything. Spreading fast and mostly on the glass. I kinda like them. I don't feed any filter feeding food, just a dop of selcon to the tak once a week and crushed flake food every day.
Dan
acrodave
07/01/2007, 08:10 PM
its just sponge they are very soft.Ifu dont like them scrub them off.No need to dip
thecichlidpleco
07/01/2007, 08:14 PM
I have had a problem with them growing up onto my skeletal stalks on my frogspawn, is there any chance they would grow onto the actually froggie?
Mr James
07/01/2007, 09:20 PM
by iCam
Look like they might be "pineapple sponges".
I've seen these for years and never wondered what they were until I read this post. I just thought they were another one of those "reef things".
I believe the proper name is Scypha ciliata.
I wouldn't use fresh water on live rock.
From what I'm reading, And looking at everyones setups, It looks like they tend to stay out of the light or in shaded areas.doesn't look like a problem for MH lighting but I use pc lights might not be bright enough to keep them from taking over the tank.
I mean (cf light's) its been a long day
honda2sk
07/02/2007, 09:30 AM
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10253528#post10253528 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilsonh
No, the bacteria are the same, they just need to be adapted.
Do I have the data on it? No. I read it all up once but I'm not going to track it all down for you.
Some years ago, after reading up on it, I began using the method, fresh to salt, and salt to fresh, and trust me, done slowly there is no effect on the cycle at all. I have done it many times as I used to aquaculture corals to sell commercially and incorporated fresh water rock curing to my system. I would not be advocating the method if I did not have personal experience with it.
On the other hand I would suspect the people who say it won't work have never tried it ;) .
You are not going to look it up because there is nothing to look up. They are different bacteria. They do not "adapt" to freshwater/saltwater.
You simply "read it somewhere" just as some other un-informed aquarist is reading your incorrect post right now. This is how incorrect information is recycled.
on3ofak1nd
07/02/2007, 02:27 PM
Freshwater and Saltwater Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas bacteria are NOT the same.
http://www.bioconlabs.com/bacteval.html
In this article "cycling" products are tested in both marine and freshwater environments. The last paragraph is most significant regarding the topic at hand.
"The most dramatic difference in the product testing came in the comparison of saltwater products for the removal of ammonia through nitrification. In this section of our testing only one product produced results, all other products failed to convert the ammonia. Most of the products tested using the saltwater formula claimed to be capable of working in both saltwater and freshwater, however marine species of Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas differ from those that live in freshwater. Therefore it is believed that these products actually contained only the freshwater species, since they were able to convert ammonia to nitrate in the freshwater testing but failed to produce results when placed in a saltwater environment."
wilsonh
07/02/2007, 05:26 PM
Well, you are right, I stand corrected. I am myself a victim of wrong information. From the above it looks like even some of the commercial bacteria formulation producers believe their bacteria do well in both fresh and salt water.
But having said that, my own experience is that I have for years successfully switched rock from fresh to salt and back, with no effect on the cycle. I can only assume that there are other bacteria involved such as heterotrophic ones for example, that may not be in the commercial formulations discussed in the article.
Thanks to this discussion I have been doing a bit of research of my own yesterday, and will be changing the way I cycle rock and dose bacteria. I don't think any harm has been done by what I do, but I have probably been favouring some of the less efficient bacteria. I'll now make sure that advantage goes to the ones that do best in salt water.
musty baby
07/02/2007, 08:52 PM
Do you do all of your rock at one time? If you're sitting the rock in freshwater for long periods and only doing portions of the rock, there shouldn't be a cycle as you're effectively killing off the rock, diluting the nutrients out of the rock, and introducing something between base rock and live rock back into the system, which should give little to no cycle. Maybe some of it does survive, I don't think anyone here can say none of the life will survive without some testing, but it's likely you're doing little good by way of maintaining the life within your live rock.
wilsonh
07/03/2007, 08:39 AM
I'm not raising corals as a business any more so not really curing much rock at all now, but I used to not do it all at one time, although might have done a complete tankful at one time.
We are getting a bit away from the topic of sponges! :), but since you asked, in my country, which is temperate and does not have coral reefs, all live rock has to be imported. Our government require that it is then dried in the sun for 3 weeks, to kill everything & make sure no pests are introduced. So for us, saving life on the rock is not an issue, there is none to save. To use this rock it has to be re-cycled. What I used to do, was cycle it in a rock pool at the beach close to my house. This was much easier & cheaper than doing it at home. In a couple of months I would collect the rock which would be completely cycled, clean and white. However, it did pick up a few undesireable algaes which I did not want to introduce to my culturing tanks. So I would put it in a seperate tank and wind the salinity right down, hold it for a couple of weeks, then wind the salinity back up, it would be free of any nuisance algae and ready for use in the frag system. From time to time this rock would be used to set up someones normal aquarium, and there was never a cycle even if a bunch of fish were put in the same day.
I will say though that I didn't take the salinity all the way to zero, I just took it anything below 1.009, which seemed to do the job.
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